Difficulty Finding Python Developers

P

Peter Hansen

Paul said:
It is somewhat of an experiment, but the application is to be used in an
actual production system. The experiment is to see how viable Python
outsourcing is in our area, in the event the inhouse developers get
swamped and we need help fast...

Heh heh! :) That pretty much eliminates the approach some
of us suggested to have an in-house developer pick up Python
quickly to do the job.

(It doesn't, I think, change the fact that you shouldn't necessarily
be insisting on hiring a "Python programmer", but clearly you will
need to mention that the work will involve programming in Python...)

-Peter
 
R

Robert M. Emmons

I would actually suggest, however, that instead of hiring someone
new for the position, take one of your talented existing programmers
and have him or her learn Python while starting on this project.
If the project goes well, you can more easily make the case for
doing other projects with Python, and you might in the meantime
have found some actual "Python programmers". I still wouldn't
hire them, however, if they didn't fit the afore-mentioned criteria...

I agree with Peter. I learned python in an afternoon. I'm not saying I
was highly productive after 4 hours, but I could program and start
working immediately. Any good programmer should be able to do this.

For reference: On the scale of programmers -- I'm not on the expert
high end -- just someone that has many years of experience in a variety
of languagues for a variety of small projects. The ease and power of
using python is what sold me immediately. Very Cool...

Rob
 
E

Erik Max Francis

Robert M. Emmons said:
I agree with Peter. I learned python in an afternoon. I'm not saying
I
was highly productive after 4 hours, but I could program and start
working immediately. Any good programmer should be able to do this.

Note that doesn't mean it's a bad idea to hire a Python expert in order
to lead a team or make sure that everyone's learning Python properly.
 
R

Robert M. Emmons

Note that doesn't mean it's a bad idea to hire a Python expert in order
to lead a team or make sure that everyone's learning Python properly.

Being an expert is a good thing. No doubt about that. As in many
things however, motivation is a good subsititute -- and possible with
python itself.

I think I would be more worried about the non-python language things --
they are harder to learn and take more time, and are where depth is
important. Python itself is easy to learn. Learning to write CGI
scripts, using Zope, doing database work, making a web site, using
wxWindows, etc. These are more than just Python. Because of that --
the person that's going to do the job is going to need to be an expert
in some of these areas...otherwise long learning curve.

Rob
 
R

Roy Smith

Robert M. Emmons said:
I think I would be more worried about the non-python language things --
they are harder to learn and take more time, and are where depth is
important. Python itself is easy to learn. Learning to write CGI
scripts, using Zope, doing database work, making a web site, using
wxWindows, etc. These are more than just Python. Because of that --
the person that's going to do the job is going to need to be an expert
in some of these areas...otherwise long learning curve.

That's an excellent point. I think most programmers underestimate the
importance (and difficulty) of all the non-coding activities that go
into making a successful business.

Web development is a perfect example. A good website is more about
content and usability (and often, databases) than it is about coding the
dynamic page generation engine.

Likewise, in any project involving more than about 2 people, software
process engineering starts to become as critical as programming. Things
like poor configuration management, quality control, requirements
gathering and documentation are more likely to sink a big project than
bad coding.
 
R

Robert M. Emmons

Likewise, in any project involving more than about 2 people, software
process engineering starts to become as critical as programming. Things
like poor configuration management, quality control, requirements
gathering and documentation are more likely to sink a big project than
bad coding.

Simply understanding all of the true stake holders in a project and the
boundary conditions they represent on one hand -- and getting a group of
people to understand these issues and to work together effectively to
satisfy the multiple and often conflicting conditions is always an
enormous challange in any team project environment.

There are always oh so many ways to fail, and even when you "succeed" it
may be only a very partial success and only in the eye of a fraction of
the stake-holders.

I always walk away from these things feeling like it's a "messy
business" and wondering if I could have done it a better way or have
made better decisions or communicated better or faciliated better or
supported people more.

Rob
 
J

John J. Lee

Peter Hansen said:
Maybe, but not in this thread, so far, unless my news providers
is dropping messages.

(I'm sure there's a subtle point you're making, but it's too
subtle for my simple brain; forgive me.)
[...]

I assume Fredrik's point was that one can get a lot done in 3 months
with Python.


John
 
W

William Park

Paul Morrow said:
For those who've asked...

This particular project is essentially a web-based registration
application. We'll probably want to use mod_python to serve the
pages, and Oracle for the database backend. It will have things like
a white-paper area that requires registration to access, an opt-in/out
email component, and the like.

But we do want the developer to be physically here (in Atlanta).

"3-month" usually means "Summer student", because it indicates that you
want lots of staff turnover. So, university, college, or high school
comes to mind. In fact, go to your local High School, hire couple of
script kiddies, and teach them Python. You'll probably get more result
out of them, and cheaper too.

Also, if you post some kind of "open competition", say
1. $5000 for a script to get HTML form data, format them, and ...
2. $2000 for ...
3. $1000 for ...
you might get more response. Here, you are concentrating on result, and
not on tools. This is because your client pays you for getting the job
done, and not for using Python.

cc: OP
 
R

Roy Smith

We've worked hard to convince our company to migrate our core
applications to Python, and now we're looking for a Python developer
in Atlanta to handle a short-term (approx. 3 month) project. But our
initial searches have been fairly unsuccessful. We haven't actually
posted a job on Monster, but we have been talking with various
headhunters in our area and they don't have many resumes that show
Python experience. An so now, of course, mgt is wondering whether
selecting Python was a mistake.

As anyone had a similar experience? Suggestions?

I'm guessing this is your ad:

Company: Loyaltyworks, Inc.
Location: Atlanta, GA 30305
Salary/Wage: 45.00 - 55.00 USD /year
Status: Per Diem, Temporary/Contract/Project

I think you'd do better if you were willing to pay a bit more. Most
developers find it difficult to pay the rent on $55 a year. :)
 
S

SeeBelow

Paul said:
We've worked hard to convince our company to migrate our core
applications to Python, and now we're looking for a Python developer
in Atlanta to handle a short-term (approx. 3 month) project. But our
initial searches have been fairly unsuccessful. We haven't actually
posted a job on Monster, but we have been talking with various
headhunters in our area and they don't have many resumes that show
Python experience. An so now, of course, mgt is wondering whether
selecting Python was a mistake.

As anyone had a similar experience? Suggestions?

I'm also having trouble finding someone, although I'm looking for an
unpaid volunteer, so it is more to be expected.

This is part of an open source project at SourceForge. The Python
program would have to call some methods that were compiled from C source
code.

We need someone to add graphics & GUI to an existing C program. The main
program, graphics & GUI would be python/tKinter. The graphics would
show the path of a virtual sailboat, which has a robot at the helm. The
robot is actually an Artificial Neural Network (ANN). We use
neuroevolution to discover a competent ANN yachtsman.

Visit the URL below to learn more; especially the sourceforge link.

Mitchell Timin

--
"Many are stubborn in pursuit of the path they have chosen, few in
pursuit of the goal." - Friedrich Nietzsche

http://annevolve.sourceforge.net is what I'm into nowadays.
Humans may write to me at this address: zenguy at shaw dot ca
 
P

Paul Morrow

Yes, that's our ad. I guess hr wasn't as careful as they should've been
when they authored it (there's also a mispelled word)... :-(

You probably already realized this, but that should've been $45 to $55
per hour.
 
M

Mike C. Fletcher

Paul said:
Yes, that's our ad. I guess hr wasn't as careful as they should've
been when they authored it (there's also a mispelled word)... :-(

You probably already realized this, but that should've been $45 to $55
per hour.

*I* didn't realise that, I assumed $45,000/year to $55,000/year annual
rate, which would be a reasonable rate in Canada (in Canadian dollars
even) for a programmer with 1 or 2 years of experience. I'd forgotten
just how well Americans get paid for having fun... but at least our
taxes are higher :) .

Enjoy,
Mike

_______________________________________
Mike C. Fletcher
Designer, VR Plumber, Coder
http://members.rogers.com/mcfletch/
 
P

Paul Rubin

Mike C. Fletcher said:
*I* didn't realise that, I assumed $45,000/year to $55,000/year annual
rate, which would be a reasonable rate in Canada (in Canadian dollars
even) for a programmer with 1 or 2 years of experience. I'd forgotten
just how well Americans get paid for having fun... but at least our
taxes are higher :) .

If you're a contractor, you get no employee benefits like health
insurance, no paid vacation or paid time off if you get sick, and no
expectation of having a steady job (the job is just for 3 months and
then you expect to be looking for work again). Plus you pay more
taxes (there's a FICA tax of about 14% that you and your employer each
pay 50% of if you're an employee, but you pay 100% of it if you're a
contractor), plus you have to file tax returns every 3 months instead
of once a year. Because of all that, it's normal for the hourly rate
for contract programmers to be about 2x the equivalent hourly rate for
staff programmers, i.e. a $50/hour 3-month contract job is equivalent
to about a $50k/year staff job. In the current economy where there's
lots of unemployment, contract work is quite hard to find (contractors
are usually the first to get chopped when a company needs to cut
expenses, since it's much easier to just not renew a contract than to
actually lay off an employee), so the contracting market is worse than
usual, which means that $50/hour is pretty good, especially for an
area like Atlanta, which has lower expenses (and lower wages) than an
area like Silicon Valley.
 
R

Roger Binns

We need someone to add graphics & GUI to an existing C program. The main
program, graphics & GUI would be python/tKinter.

In that case, not only are you looking for a Python programmer,
but also one that does tkInter (which is an even smaller subset).
I would recommend not picking a GUI toolkit but instead letting
the Python programmer do it. That way you may end up with a
Qt, GTK, wxPython or tkInter user interface, but it would be
better than having nothing. You may also be able to split
your program in two and have a backend doing the all calculations
etc, and a front end that runs in a web browser, or uses XML-RPC
or something to show what is going on.

BTW I gave up on tkInter a few years ago because of its lack of
support for printing. I now happily do everything in wxPython
and find it the best solution *for me* for doing apps that run
equally well on Windows, Linux and Mac.

Roger
 
P

Paul Rubin

Paul Morrow said:
Yes, that's our ad. I guess hr wasn't as careful as they should've
been when they authored it (there's also a mispelled word)... :-(

You probably already realized this, but that should've been $45 to $55
per hour.

I don't remember if anyone's mentioned this in the thread yet, but you
might also list the job on the Python jobs board:

http://python.org/Jobs.html
 
L

Lothar Scholz

*I* didn't realise that, I assumed $45,000/year to $55,000/year annual
rate, which would be a reasonable rate in Canada (in Canadian dollars
even) for a programmer with 1 or 2 years of experience. I'd forgotten
just how well Americans get paid for having fun...

You mean the lucky persons working at Wal-Mart ?
 
P

Paul Morrow

Thanks to everyone for their suggestions and ideas on this. Our HR
department placed an ad on monster.com, which currently is mostly being
answered by recuiters and spammers, but we're hopeful we'll get more
actual applicants soon.

If anyone is interested in this short gig, and can work in Atlanta, you
can find our ad by searching on loyaltyworks as the keyword.

Thanks again!
 
S

SeeBelow

Anand said:
Me! Me!

Outsource it to India and I can help to do it for you :)

-Anand

I have no preferences concerning the geographical location of the
programmer.

Did you read my original post? The job is for someone who does it for
the fun and satisfaction and to participate in the progress of computer
science. (i.e., there is no money involved.)

Mitchell Timin

<snip>
--
"Many are stubborn in pursuit of the path they have chosen, few in
pursuit of the goal." - Friedrich Nietzsche

http://annevolve.sourceforge.net is what I'm into nowadays.
Humans may write to me at this address: zenguy at shaw dot ca
 
B

Bill Anderson

1) Python's regexp module has no way to search backwards in a string
for a regexp, i.e. find the last occurence of the regexp before
location x.

Maybe I don't get it but ... use findall. It takes an end position, and
the last one in the list is the last one before location x.

foo = re.compile(regex)
foo.findall(stringtosearchon,0,50)[-1]

returns the last occurence of the regex prior to location 50.

Granted this took about 5 minutes to figure out, but it seems to solve the
problem well enough.

What am I missing?
 

Ask a Question

Want to reply to this thread or ask your own question?

You'll need to choose a username for the site, which only take a couple of moments. After that, you can post your question and our members will help you out.

Ask a Question

Members online

Forum statistics

Threads
473,774
Messages
2,569,598
Members
45,151
Latest member
JaclynMarl
Top