va_list * and function parameters?

[lawrence.jones]

I'm hoping it's just a Microsoft thing, but a mainstream vendor not
bothering to include something as fundamental as va_copy() in a
product that has a wide C base strikes me as poignantly indicative of
how much importance has been attributed to C99. Apparently the same
omission occurred in Visual Studio 2005,

Indeed, it's still missing from VS 2008. :-(

It is a Microsoft thing -- they're much more interested in C# than
either C or C++. They've been conspicuously absent from the C
Standardization process for a long time and have only recently gotten
involved again.

 

[Phil Carmody]

Indeed, it's still missing from VS 2008. :-(

It is a Microsoft thing -- they're much more interested in C# than
either C or C++. They've been conspicuously absent from the C
Standardization process for a long time and have only recently gotten
involved again.

[Horrifically OT and conspiracy theorist]
Is this the same Microsoft who snarfed well-known C++ guru,
evangelist, and prominant ISO standards committee member Herb
Sutter? You're almost making it sound like they enrolled him
not to improve the state of C++ within MS, but so they'd have
some leverage with which to derail C++ for everyone else!
[/]

Phil

 

[Richard Bos]

It is a Microsoft thing -- they're much more interested in C# than
either C or C++. They've been conspicuously absent from the C
Standardization process for a long time and have only recently gotten
involved again.

[Horrifically OT and conspiracy theorist]
Is this the same Microsoft who snarfed well-known C++ guru,
evangelist, and prominant ISO standards committee member Herb
Sutter? You're almost making it sound like they enrolled him
not to improve the state of C++ within MS, but so they'd have
some leverage with which to derail C++ for everyone else!

Well... they _are_ the company which invented Hungarian Notation, aren't
they? And we all know how useful that is for distracting programmers
away from _real_ type safety.

Richard

 

[Tim Rentsch]

It is a Microsoft thing -- they're much more interested in C# than
either C or C++. They've been conspicuously absent from the C
Standardization process for a long time and have only recently gotten
involved again.

[Horrifically OT and conspiracy theorist]
Is this the same Microsoft who snarfed well-known C++ guru,
evangelist, and prominant ISO standards committee member Herb
Sutter? You're almost making it sound like they enrolled him
not to improve the state of C++ within MS, but so they'd have
some leverage with which to derail C++ for everyone else!

Well... they _are_ the company which invented Hungarian Notation, aren't
they? And we all know how useful that is for distracting programmers
away from _real_ type safety.

Actually no. Like so many other Microsoft "innovations", this
was developed by someone elsewhere (Xerox) and came to Microsoft only
along with the developer(s) when he (or maybe they) were hired.

 

[Larry Gates]

(e-mail address removed) writes:
It is a Microsoft thing -- they're much more interested in C# than
either C or C++. They've been conspicuously absent from the C
Standardization process for a long time and have only recently gotten
involved again.

[Horrifically OT and conspiracy theorist]
Is this the same Microsoft who snarfed well-known C++ guru,
evangelist, and prominant ISO standards committee member Herb
Sutter? You're almost making it sound like they enrolled him
not to improve the state of C++ within MS, but so they'd have
some leverage with which to derail C++ for everyone else!

Well... they _are_ the company which invented Hungarian Notation, aren't
they? And we all know how useful that is for distracting programmers
away from _real_ type safety.

Actually no. Like so many other Microsoft "innovations", this
was developed by someone elsewhere (Xerox) and came to Microsoft only
along with the developer(s) when he (or maybe they) were hired.

I associate Hungarian Notation with Charles Simyoni. They sure know how to
crank out a lot of clever people per square inch in Hungary.

 

[Phil Carmody]

(e-mail address removed) writes:
It is a Microsoft thing -- they're much more interested in C# than
either C or C++. They've been conspicuously absent from the C
Standardization process for a long time and have only recently gotten
involved again.

[Horrifically OT and conspiracy theorist]
Is this the same Microsoft who snarfed well-known C++ guru,
evangelist, and prominant ISO standards committee member Herb
Sutter? You're almost making it sound like they enrolled him
not to improve the state of C++ within MS, but so they'd have
some leverage with which to derail C++ for everyone else!

Well... they _are_ the company which invented Hungarian Notation, aren't
they? And we all know how useful that is for distracting programmers
away from _real_ type safety.

Actually no. Like so many other Microsoft "innovations", this
was developed by someone elsewhere (Xerox) and came to Microsoft only
along with the developer(s) when he (or maybe they) were hired.

I associate Hungarian Notation with Charles Simyoni. They sure know how to
crank out a lot of clever people per square inch in Hungary.

s/yon/ony/.

The Charles Simonyi who introduced Hungarian Notation while at
Xerox Parc, as Tim already said. If you see something from a
well-respected poster that appears to not agree 100% with your
view on a factual matter, then you should first investigate
whether it's a flaw in your own knowledge behind the discrepancy.

I love the fact that he espoused Hungarian Notation (though not
under that name) in a document, in fact in the same section of
the document, as:

Assuming a stochastic model of random assignment of types
to quantities, ...

Yes, please, assume that when introducing and recommending your
notation. That makes it much easier to simply discard your twisted
brainwrong as ill-founded.

Can you tell I'm with Linus and Barney on this one?

Phil

 

[Kaz Kylheku]

I associate Hungarian Notation with Charles Simyoni. They sure know how to
crank out a lot of clever people per square inch in Hungary.

Sure, but the process is limited by their insistance on re-using the same
square inch.

 

[Larry Gates]

Sure, but the process is limited by their insistance on re-using the same
square inch.

Would you have them become imperial, trying maybe to bite off a piece of
Romania or Afghanistan?
--
larry gates

Are you going to bother to set up an unspoofable identity for every
shirt in your closet?
-- Larry Wall, 8th State of the Onion

 

[Larry Gates]

(e-mail address removed) (Richard Bos) writes:
(e-mail address removed) writes:
It is a Microsoft thing -- they're much more interested in C# than
either C or C++. They've been conspicuously absent from the C
Standardization process for a long time and have only recently gotten
involved again.

[Horrifically OT and conspiracy theorist]
Is this the same Microsoft who snarfed well-known C++ guru,
evangelist, and prominant ISO standards committee member Herb
Sutter? You're almost making it sound like they enrolled him
not to improve the state of C++ within MS, but so they'd have
some leverage with which to derail C++ for everyone else!

Well... they _are_ the company which invented Hungarian Notation, aren't
they? And we all know how useful that is for distracting programmers
away from _real_ type safety.

Actually no. Like so many other Microsoft "innovations", this
was developed by someone elsewhere (Xerox) and came to Microsoft only
along with the developer(s) when he (or maybe they) were hired.

I associate Hungarian Notation with Charles Simyoni. They sure know how to
crank out a lot of clever people per square inch in Hungary.

s/yon/ony/.

That's what I thought.

The Charles Simonyi who introduced Hungarian Notation while at
Xerox Parc, as Tim already said. If you see something from a
well-respected poster that appears to not agree 100% with your
view on a factual matter, then you should first investigate
whether it's a flaw in your own knowledge behind the discrepancy.

I love the fact that he espoused Hungarian Notation (though not
under that name) in a document, in fact in the same section of
the document, as:

Assuming a stochastic model of random assignment of types
to quantities, ...

Yes, please, assume that when introducing and recommending your
notation. That makes it much easier to simply discard your twisted
brainwrong as ill-founded.

Can you tell I'm with Linus and Barney on this one?

Phil

I don't quite know what to think about these last paragraphs. The most
tin-sounding sentence was the headlong dive into the is-ought gap with "you
should."

Could you elaborate as to the twisted brainwrong?

 

[lawrence.jones]

Well... they _are_ the company which invented Hungarian Notation, aren't
they? And we all know how useful that is for distracting programmers
away from _real_ type safety.

Not when it's used correctly. Which, of course, it never is.

 

[Richard]

Not when it's used correctly. Which, of course, it never is.

I have seen hungarian notation used in many projects and it certainly
aided people less familiar with the code base in many cases. Like all
things it depends on who is using it and how they control it. Put a
debugger in the hands of someone incompetent like Chuck and it won't
help. Give one to a good analyst programmer and it will save hours and
hours of time.

 

[Richard Bos]

[Horrifically OT and conspiracy theorist]
Is this the same Microsoft who snarfed well-known C++ guru,
evangelist, and prominant ISO standards committee member Herb
Sutter? You're almost making it sound like they enrolled him
not to improve the state of C++ within MS, but so they'd have
some leverage with which to derail C++ for everyone else!

Well... they _are_ the company which invented Hungarian Notation, aren't
they? And we all know how useful that is for distracting programmers
away from _real_ type safety.

Actually no. Like so many other Microsoft "innovations", this
was developed by someone elsewhere (Xerox) and came to Microsoft only
along with the developer(s) when he (or maybe they) were hired.

Ah, yes, I should have said that they invented the currently most
common, and braindead, way of applying HN. The original HN _can_ be used
sanely and usefully, but thanks to M$, it rarely is these days.

Which, scarily, actually is better proof of the conspiracy theory than
my original post...

Richard