Any experience on teaching Perl programmers Java

Discussion in 'Java' started by saxo123@gmx.de, Oct 24, 2011.

  1. Guest

    Hello,

    I lately applied for quite an ineresting Java job. It turned out that
    I would also have to teach Perl programmers Java. Now, there's the
    rub... I once had to teach SAP developers Java. That was a little
    nightmare. The SAP programmers were not all interested, had basically
    no interest in computer science as such. Worst of all the boss thought
    Java was something like SAP just from a different manufacturer and
    everybody could learn it like SAP itself. I fear this could turn out
    the same again with teaching Perl programmers Java ...

    Problem is now that I have no clue about Perl. So I cannot judge
    whether they would be interested. Have to ask whether I could meet
    these guys, sure. Found lot's of stuff on the Internet, but that
    doesn't tell me that much about how it will be to teach Perl people
    Java. Anybody that gained some experience here is welcomed to drop a
    comment or send me a mail to .

    Cheers, Oliver
     
    , Oct 24, 2011
    #1
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  2. markspace Guest

    On 10/24/2011 3:07 PM, wrote:
    > I once had to teach SAP developers Java. That was a little
    > nightmare. The SAP programmers were not all interested, had basically
    > no interest in computer science as such. Worst of all the boss thought
    > Java was something like SAP just from a different manufacturer and
    > everybody could learn it like SAP itself.



    'Cuse my ignorance but what is SAP? I see the product on WikiPedia by
    the company SAP, but that doesn't tell me much about it.


    > I fear this could turn out
    > the same again with teaching Perl programmers Java ...



    I'd state your concerns up front to the class and gather their feedback.
    I know one Perl programmer who is very concerned about structure and
    organization of code. But I'll admit he seems to be the exception.

    Other than that, I'd start at the beginning and teach it to them as if
    they were new programmers, except in deference to the fact that they are
    not, I'd go faster. I don't however have any experience teach
    professionals programming, so ymmv.
     
    markspace, Oct 25, 2011
    #2
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  3. On 10/24/11 18:07, wrote:
    > Hello,
    >
    > I lately applied for quite an ineresting Java job. It turned out that
    > I would also have to teach Perl programmers Java. Now, there's the
    > rub... I once had to teach SAP developers Java. That was a little
    > nightmare. The SAP programmers were not all interested, had basically
    > no interest in computer science as such. Worst of all the boss thought
    > Java was something like SAP just from a different manufacturer and
    > everybody could learn it like SAP itself. I fear this could turn out
    > the same again with teaching Perl programmers Java ...
    >
    > Problem is now that I have no clue about Perl. So I cannot judge
    > whether they would be interested. Have to ask whether I could meet
    > these guys, sure. Found lot's of stuff on the Internet, but that
    > doesn't tell me that much about how it will be to teach Perl people
    > Java. Anybody that gained some experience here is welcomed to drop a
    > comment or send me a mail to .
    >
    > Cheers, Oliver


    Perl is not Object Oriented.

    They will understand the usual types of programming constructs, looping,
    if..then..else, and so on. Biggest problem may be helping them get their
    heads around objects, classes and the like.

    My $0.02 Cdn.

    --
    Programmers, with their inbuild sense of order and discipline, should
    really be running the world.
     
    William Colls, Oct 25, 2011
    #3
  4. Guest

    In article <j856kr$25q$>,
    William Colls <> wrote:
    > On 10/24/11 18:07, wrote:
    > > Hello,
    > >
    > > I lately applied for quite an ineresting Java job. It turned out that
    > > I would also have to teach Perl programmers Java. Now, there's the
    > > rub... I once had to teach SAP developers Java. That was a little
    > > nightmare. The SAP programmers were not all interested, had basically
    > > no interest in computer science as such. Worst of all the boss thought
    > > Java was something like SAP just from a different manufacturer and
    > > everybody could learn it like SAP itself. I fear this could turn out
    > > the same again with teaching Perl programmers Java ...
    > >
    > > Problem is now that I have no clue about Perl. So I cannot judge
    > > whether they would be interested. Have to ask whether I could meet
    > > these guys, sure. Found lot's of stuff on the Internet, but that
    > > doesn't tell me that much about how it will be to teach Perl people
    > > Java. Anybody that gained some experience here is welcomed to drop a
    > > comment or send me a mail to .
    > >
    > > Cheers, Oliver

    >
    > Perl is not Object Oriented.


    Well .... It doesn't have to be, but it can be. The man page
    for perl lists the following, under "Tutorials":

    perlboot Perl OO tutorial for beginners
    perltoot Perl OO tutorial, part 1
    perltooc Perl OO tutorial, part 2
    perlbot Perl OO tricks and examples

    Some (many? several?) of the Perl library add-ons are packaged as
    classes/objects.

    > They will understand the usual types of programming constructs, looping,
    > if..then..else, and so on. Biggest problem may be helping them get their
    > heads around objects, classes and the like.


    Agreed that they will presumably understand basic programming
    logic (assignment, conditionals, repetition) and that this will
    help quite a bit (teaching complete novices is *not* easy!).
    Whether you have to start from zero in teaching them about classes
    and objects may depend on what kind of Perl they know. But if
    all they know is Perl, the idea of variables having types will be
    new to them, and that may be significant. At my PPOE I'm teaching
    C to undergraduates, some of whom started in Python, and they do
    seem to be struggling a bit with the notion of types.

    --
    B. L. Massingill
    ObDisclaimer: I don't speak for my employers; they return the favor.
     
    , Oct 25, 2011
    #4
  5. Guest

    Hi All,

    thanx for the replies. What I'm wondering about most is whether
    typical Perl people out there in the companies are mentally awake and
    will show interest in learning new things. That kind of question is a
    bit tentative, I admit. My experience with SAP people was somewhat
    negative there. SAP is a data maintenance system, basically a
    programming layer on top of a SQL database with predefined business-
    oriented modules for accounting, credit business, hr, stockkepping,
    etc. The SAP programming language is somewhat an extension to SQL on
    an Algol-68 like language level. Now, that was mean, but basically
    correct.

    Now Perl is surely on a higher level than ABAP, but you can live a
    quite life as long as you know how to convert data streams with Perl.
    No more interest in computer science is required then to get that kind
    of job done. And that kind of people will not be able to get into
    something like Java and all the tools and libraries where you need to
    have an interest in computer science as such. Otherwise you ran mad,
    because of all the things that pop up new every year and you then have
    to learn as well.

    Regards, Oliver

    Regards, Oliver
     
    , Oct 25, 2011
    #5
  6. On Oct 25, 11:48 am, wrote:
    > thanx for the replies. What I'm wondering about most is whether
    > typical Perl people out there in the companies are mentally awake and
    > will show interest in learning new things. That kind of question is a
    > bit tentative, I admit.


    It's also something which we cannot answer. In ignorance of the real
    pupils you have we can only offer speculation and prejudice. That
    would only make things worse. Better enter the training with an open
    mind and find out who they are and what they expect from the
    training. Then adjust accordingly.

    > My experience with SAP people was somewhat
    > negative there. SAP is a data maintenance system, basically a
    > programming layer on top of a SQL database with predefined business-
    > oriented modules for accounting, credit business, hr, stockkepping,
    > etc. The SAP programming language is somewhat an extension to SQL on
    > an Algol-68 like language level. Now, that was mean, but basically
    > correct.
    >
    > Now Perl is surely on a higher level than ABAP, but you can live a
    > quite life as long as you know how to convert data streams with Perl.
    > No more interest in computer science is required then to get that kind
    > of job done.


    Unfortunately that seems to be the case for many Java programmers as
    well. I do not think that attitude depends on programming language.
    Maybe it's the other way round (i.e. people with certain attitudes
    pick specific languages) but even that is speculation and won't help
    you because your group could be totally different.

    > And that kind of people will not be able to get into
    > something like Java and all the tools and libraries where you need to
    > have an interest in computer science as such. Otherwise you ran mad,
    > because of all the things that pop up new every year and you then have
    > to learn as well.


    CPAN is also quite large and I don't think that you can get away with
    only a few core library functions throughout your Perl life.

    As I said: better find out who you are dealing with than try to create
    expectation and press real people into that frame. Imagine this forum
    would agree that Perl programmers are stupid and dumb: you would be
    preoccupied and have insulted them already the very moment you enter
    classroom. I do not think there would be a successful teaching and
    learning experience with such a start - at least it's a lot harder
    than otherwise.

    In any case I believe it to be important to come to a common agreement
    on what the purpose of the course is. It won't help if you want to
    teach CS topics but people are more interested in learning how to
    solve particular problems. If people are not interested to learn
    though, then teaching anything will be hard and you will first have to
    build up motivation.

    Kind regards

    robert
     
    Robert Klemme, Oct 25, 2011
    #6
  7. Jim Gibson Guest

    In article <>, <>
    wrote:

    > In article <j856kr$25q$>,
    > William Colls <> wrote:
    > >
    > > Perl is not Object Oriented.

    >
    > Well .... It doesn't have to be, but it can be. The man page
    > for perl lists the following, under "Tutorials":
    >
    > perlboot Perl OO tutorial for beginners
    > perltoot Perl OO tutorial, part 1
    > perltooc Perl OO tutorial, part 2
    > perlbot Perl OO tricks and examples
    >
    > Some (many? several?) of the Perl library add-ons are packaged as
    > classes/objects.


    There is also the book "Object Oriented Perl", Damian Conway, Manning
    Publications, 1999.

    <http://www.manning.com/conway/>

    Object-oriented features were added in Perl 5: classes, encapsulation,
    inheritance, polymorphism, etc. The one thing Perl doesn't have is data
    hiding:

    ³Perl doesn't have an infatuation with enforced privacy. It would
    prefer that you stayed out of its living room because you weren't
    invited, not because it has a shotgun² -- Larry Wall

    (I am a Perl fan, if you can't tell.)

    --
    Jim Gibson
     
    Jim Gibson, Oct 25, 2011
    #7
  8. Lew Guest

    Jim Gibson wrote:
    > Object-oriented features were added in Perl 5: classes, encapsulation,
    > inheritance, polymorphism, etc. The one thing Perl doesn't have is data
    > hiding:
    >
    > ³Perl doesn't have an infatuation with enforced privacy. It would
    > prefer that you stayed out of its living room because you weren't
    > invited, not because it has a shotgun² -- Larry Wall
    >
    > (I am a Perl fan, if you can't tell.)


    Calling data-access control an "infatuation" doesn't make it a bad thing. Cute analogies with rabid defenders of one's home don't make an engineeringargument, either.

    --
    Lew
     
    Lew, Oct 26, 2011
    #8
  9. Guest

    > The one thing Perl doesn't have is data hiding.

    As a matter of fact Smalltalk doesn't have that, either. Once you add
    getters and setters for a variable it becomes public. Nevertheless,
    Smalltalk teaches you a lot of good things.

    I remembered a former working collegue who works as a Java developer
    in an IT department with some Perl programmers and asked him how he
    would compare a Perl programmer to a SAP programmer. He said comparing
    a Perl programmer with a SAP programmer deserves maximum punishment.
    That was the information I needed ...
     
    , Oct 26, 2011
    #9
  10. Ten Blade Guest

    Robert Klemme <> wrote in news:c083623a-05a8-
    :

    > On Oct 25, 11:48 am, wrote:
    >> thanx for the replies. What I'm wondering about most is whether
    >> typical Perl people out there in the companies are mentally awake and
    >> will show interest in learning new things. That kind of question is a
    >> bit tentative, I admit.

    >
    > It's also something which we cannot answer. In ignorance of the real
    > pupils you have we can only offer speculation and prejudice. That
    > would only make things worse. Better enter the training with an open
    > mind and find out who they are and what they expect from the
    > training. Then adjust accordingly.
    >

    Actually, it might be better if you found out what the person who has
    booked the students into the course wants. After years as a professional
    IT trainer, I can tell you that the students on the course aren't always
    there because they want to be. Typically, a manager has decided that they
    need to learn such-and-such and the student is not necessarily thrilled
    about it or even very interested in the subject at hand. Sometimes, the
    students' interests differ significantly from what their manager wants.
    Sometimes, the students are more-or-less in the dark: the new language
    they are enrolled to learn was not their idea and their management will
    not have necessarily given them much background on why they are going to
    learn it. It's possible that the students have simply been told that they
    need to learn it for some upcoming project. That means that what
    interests the students about the language may be at odds from what the
    manager wants them to know. For instance, students may be keen to know
    how to do something they do with their existing language while the
    manager may be putting them on this course so that they can learn
    something that the new language is better suited to doing.

    The cold hard reality is that your ultimate success as an instructor will
    be teaching them what the manager wants them to know, not what the
    students themselves are interested in. If you please the students but not
    the manager, you will not likely get the chance to teach for that
    customer again. If you please the manager by covering what he wants you
    to cover and the students have the expected level of proficiency when
    they get back to work, you will likely get further business from that
    company.

    >> My experience with SAP people was somewhat
    >> negative there. SAP is a data maintenance system, basically a
    >> programming layer on top of a SQL database with predefined business-
    >> oriented modules for accounting, credit business, hr, stockkepping,
    >> etc. The SAP programming language is somewhat an extension to SQL on
    >> an Algol-68 like language level. Now, that was mean, but basically
    >> correct.
    >>
    >> Now Perl is surely on a higher level than ABAP, but you can live a
    >> quite life as long as you know how to convert data streams with Perl.
    >> No more interest in computer science is required then to get that kind
    >> of job done.

    >
    > Unfortunately that seems to be the case for many Java programmers as
    > well. I do not think that attitude depends on programming language.
    > Maybe it's the other way round (i.e. people with certain attitudes
    > pick specific languages) but even that is speculation and won't help
    > you because your group could be totally different.
    >
    >> And that kind of people will not be able to get into
    >> something like Java and all the tools and libraries where you need to
    >> have an interest in computer science as such. Otherwise you ran mad,
    >> because of all the things that pop up new every year and you then have
    >> to learn as well.

    >
    > CPAN is also quite large and I don't think that you can get away with
    > only a few core library functions throughout your Perl life.
    >
    > As I said: better find out who you are dealing with than try to create
    > expectation and press real people into that frame. Imagine this forum
    > would agree that Perl programmers are stupid and dumb: you would be
    > preoccupied and have insulted them already the very moment you enter
    > classroom. I do not think there would be a successful teaching and
    > learning experience with such a start - at least it's a lot harder
    > than otherwise.
    >

    I agree completely: don't go into the class assuming that the students
    are not very bright or motivated because that will just put everyone in
    an antagonistic mood. They may in fact turn out to be less than you hoped
    but I've only had that happen a very few times in hundreds of classes
    over the years and even those classes had more to do with the culture at
    that company.

    > In any case I believe it to be important to come to a common agreement
    > on what the purpose of the course is.


    I agree, provided that the manager who wants these students on the course
    is consulted for what he/she wants the students to learn. Bear in mind
    that some managers are not very technical themselves; they are, perhaps,
    professional project managers with little if any programming skills.
    Their input may be minimal as a result but SOMEONE in the company with
    programming skills is likely to be behind the push to offer the course
    you are teaching and they will likely be the best person to discuss the
    focus of the class with. If you can get that person involved in the
    planning of the course, you should be very successful in delivering what
    the students need.

    > It won't help if you want to
    > teach CS topics but people are more interested in learning how to
    > solve particular problems.


    Agreed. Where possible, include practical hands-on exercises that are
    closely related to what students will actually need to do. Abstract
    theoretical knowledge like OO Concepts is still going to be necessary but
    don't dwell on that too long, especially at the expense of giving
    students some practical examples of how the theory is applied in the real
    world and some actual exercises for them to code that illustrate those
    points.

    > If people are not interested to learn
    > though, then teaching anything will be hard and you will first have to
    > build up motivation.
    >

    At that point, you have become, in effect, a high school teacher in front
    of a room full of disinterested, unmotivated students, not a trainer.
    Luckily it only rarely comes to that. Most people being paid to program
    are at least sufficient professional to make an effort to learn, even if
    they are a bit dubious of the particular course or subject they have been
    told to take by their employers.


    --
    Ten-Blade
     
    Ten Blade, Oct 26, 2011
    #10
  11. Tom Anderson Guest

    On Wed, 26 Oct 2011, Patricia Shanahan wrote:

    > On 10/24/2011 3:07 PM, wrote:
    >
    >> I lately applied for quite an ineresting Java job. It turned out that I
    >> would also have to teach Perl programmers Java. Now, there's the rub...
    >> I once had to teach SAP developers Java. That was a little nightmare.
    >> The SAP programmers were not all interested, had basically no interest
    >> in computer science as such. Worst of all the boss thought Java was
    >> something like SAP just from a different manufacturer and everybody
    >> could learn it like SAP itself. I fear this could turn out the same
    >> again with teaching Perl programmers Java ...
    >>
    >> Problem is now that I have no clue about Perl. So I cannot judge
    >> whether they would be interested. Have to ask whether I could meet
    >> these guys, sure. Found lot's of stuff on the Internet, but that
    >> doesn't tell me that much about how it will be to teach Perl people
    >> Java. Anybody that gained some experience here is welcomed to drop a
    >> comment or send me a mail to .

    >
    > I'm confused about this whole discussion, because it seems to assume
    > that programming in a language such as Perl has implications for the
    > programmer's general skills, interests, and ability to learn other
    > languages.
    >
    > I'm a Perl programmer, as well as a Java programmer, and a Fortran
    > programmer, and a Forth programmer, and an assembly language programmer,
    > and a C programmer ...
    >
    > How can you possibly deduce from the fact that someone is currently
    > programming in Perl anything beyond the conclusion that they probably
    > know Perl?


    It doesn't seem unreasonable to infer that they probably either prefer
    Perl to other languages, or don't know other languages. Some people might
    be trapped writing Perl when they'd rather be writing something else, but
    i would guess that would be a corner case.

    It doesn't seem entirely appalling to proceed to infer that they either
    don't know about object orientation, static typing, enterprisey
    frameworks, debuggers, etc, or they don't care for them.

    More generally, my experience has been that different programming
    languages have different cultures around them, and it is not unreasonable
    to guess that a programmer of some particular language is part of that
    culture. You won't be right all the time, but you don't necessarily need
    to be.

    tom

    --
    The art of medicine consists in amusing the patient while nature cures
    the disease. -- Voltaire
     
    Tom Anderson, Oct 26, 2011
    #11
  12. Tom Anderson Guest

    On Mon, 24 Oct 2011, wrote:

    > Problem is now that I have no clue about Perl. So I cannot judge whether
    > they would be interested.


    They'll be smarter than your SAP programmers. They'll be interested in new
    stuff. They won't be at all impressed by static types, separate
    compilation, the length of Hello World, or the need for everything to be
    inside a class. They will eventually admit grudging respect for
    java.util.regex.

    They won't be anywhere near as good at wild generalisations as me.

    tom

    --
    The art of medicine consists in amusing the patient while nature cures
    the disease. -- Voltaire
     
    Tom Anderson, Oct 26, 2011
    #12
  13. On Tue, 25 Oct 2011 20:00:02 -0700, Lew wrote:

    > Calling data-access control an "infatuation" doesn't make it a bad
    > thing. Cute analogies with rabid defenders of one's home don't make an
    > engineering argument, either.
    >

    Larry Wall has a somewhat ironic, self-deprecating sense of humour and
    merely meant that Perl has much less dependence on variable scoping than
    some other languages.

    Self-deprecating because it was he who said that PERL is an acronym for
    "Pathologically Eclectic Rubbish Lister" and, in the early days,
    described it as the result of combining features of the Bourne shell, awk,
    grep and several a few UNIX filters such as tr wc into one scripting
    language.


    --
    martin@ | Martin Gregorie
    gregorie. | Essex, UK
    org |
     
    Martin Gregorie, Oct 26, 2011
    #13
  14. On 10/24/2011 5:07 PM, wrote:
    > I lately applied for quite an ineresting Java job. It turned out that
    > I would also have to teach Perl programmers Java. Now, there's the
    > rub... I once had to teach SAP developers Java. That was a little
    > nightmare. The SAP programmers were not all interested, had basically
    > no interest in computer science as such. Worst of all the boss thought
    > Java was something like SAP just from a different manufacturer and
    > everybody could learn it like SAP itself. I fear this could turn out
    > the same again with teaching Perl programmers Java ...


    I'll admit that I don't really know Perl (I can muddle my way through
    reading it, but I have no hope of writing it anytime soon), so I'm
    probably more liable to grasp at stereotypes than honest truths.

    My first thought of Perl is that it is often used for "little" scripts
    (e.g., a script that looks through a log file to find more useful data).
    I do know that it has some vague object-oriented features, but I believe
    that this feature lacks things like virtual methods and inheritance that
    are normally associated with object-oriented paradigms.

    I suspect that you will most notably find grousing about explicit static
    typing, as opposed to Perl's implicit duck typing. To a lesser degree,
    people may grouse about Java needing to put methods in classes. It is
    possible (I'm really bordering on stereotype here) that your Perl
    programmers may grouse about how much more difficult it is to do textual
    manipulation in Java compared to Perl, particularly in the difficulty of
    handling stdin and running regexes.

    --
    Beware of bugs in the above code; I have only proved it correct, not
    tried it. -- Donald E. Knuth
     
    Joshua Cranmer, Oct 27, 2011
    #14
  15. Wojtek Guest

    wrote :
    >> The one thing Perl doesn't have is data hiding.

    >
    > As a matter of fact Smalltalk doesn't have that, either. Once you add
    > getters and setters for a variable it becomes public.


    Um, no.

    A getter/setter can also be private or default (package visible). And
    the actual variable (field) is still hidden (private).

    A getter/setter is a method. You can stuff as much code as you want
    into it, though you should follow the basic contract of a
    getter/setter, ie saving the passed value and returning it.

    I've written setters that store the passed value, then manipulate it in
    some way and then store that. So a single setter actually sets two
    values, and there are two related getters.

    --
    Wojtek :)
     
    Wojtek, Oct 27, 2011
    #15
  16. Guest

    > Actually, it might be better if you found out what the person who has booked the students into
    > the course wants.


    It's about teaching Perl developers in a company Java to transfer them
    to Java/OO development. It will be something like a continouing part-
    time job beside my min work.

    > I'm a Perl programmer, as well as a Java programmer, and a Fortran
    > programmer, and a Forth programmer, and an assembly language programmer,
    > and a C programmer ...


    Yes, I see. The issue is that in companies like banks or insurance
    companies a Perl programmer can spend a work life time with Perl-based
    stream processing without doing anything else. That kind of people
    don't have a horizon like you.

    > I suspect that you will most notably find grousing about explicit static
    > typing, as opposed to Perl's implicit duck typing. To a lesser degree,
    > people may grouse about Java needing to put methods in classes.


    Yes, but I let the moan about those things. Not my job to bother about
    that. I'm thinking of letting them do some groovy programming. Teaches
    them OO as well and many higher-level constructs they need for Java
    development. With groovy they will feel much more at home. Once the
    company wants them to do some real Java work, they'll have to switch
    like myself wo would prefer some groovy/groovy++ work as well :).

    --Oliver
     
    , Oct 27, 2011
    #16
  17. On 26/10/2011 21:51, Tom Anderson wrote:
    > On Wed, 26 Oct 2011, Patricia Shanahan wrote:
    >>
    >> How can you possibly deduce from the fact that someone is currently
    >> programming in Perl anything beyond the conclusion that they probably
    >> know Perl?

    >
    >
    > It doesn't seem entirely appalling to proceed to infer that they either
    > don't know about object orientation, static typing, enterprisey
    > frameworks, debuggers, etc, or they don't care for them.


    It seems appalling to me. I have written OO in Perl. There are Perl OO
    frameworks; Perl debuggers. Why should they exist if (a substantial
    number of) Perl programmers don't care for them?

    If I was teaching Java to Perl programmers I'd show them Perl OO code
    and the equivalent Java OO code. Then I'd compare thinking in Perl with
    thinking in Java. I wouldn't start out assuming I was trail-driving a
    bunch of illiterate curmudgeonly idiots to the pool of enlightenment.


    > More generally, my experience has been that different programming
    > languages have different cultures around them, and it is not
    > unreasonable to guess that a programmer of some particular language is
    > part of that culture. You won't be right all the time, but you don't
    > necessarily need to be.


    There's some truth in this but I program Perl, I program Java. Which
    cultural pigeon hole should I cower in? A trainer might address the
    different language cultures but I wouldn't focus on it too much.

    --
    RGB
     
    RedGrittyBrick, Oct 27, 2011
    #17
  18. Jef Guest

    Hello, Perl is the language I use the most.
    Perl programmers are in general litterate in CS and will probably be
    very critic about Java language. An introduction of the reflection API
    will probably please a lot. A Perl programmer wants to know the
    internal to understand what can be done and can not be done with a
    language.
    Perl programmer have many modules available on CPAN and are not used
    to IDE (like eclipse or netbeans). I think you should take time to
    explain how to use the IDE and how to find help about the available
    libraries. Show them how to navigate the sources of java libraries.
    Perl programmers are used to very short programs to solve complex
    problems thanks to the smart libraries. You should make your examples
    very consise and do not hesitate to use syntactic tricks. Normally a
    Perl programmer knows about objects, closure, garbage collectors (Perl
    has only reference counting). Multiple inheritence is almost never
    used in Perl. Interfaces are not needed because the language is
    dynamic.

    Perl is generally bad for creating GUI, but excellent for text
    processing. If you put your examples inside a GUI, they will be less
    tempted to compare. Before you start teaching them, you must undestand
    that any java programm can be programmed in Perl in about a tenth of
    the time and with a tenth of the code.

    There are some exceptions: I have encountered some bad "Perl
    programmers" that were using Perl like a shell scripting language.
    They were often less literrate, but may be very good in other
    languages. Switching to java maybe an excellent idea for them, but
    this does give you no clue about how to teach them.
     
    Jef, Oct 27, 2011
    #18
  19. On Oct 26, 9:52 am, wrote:
    > I remembered a former working collegue who works as a Java developer
    > in an IT department with some Perl programmers and asked him how he
    > would compare a Perl programmer to a SAP programmer. He said comparing
    > a Perl programmer with a SAP programmer deserves maximum punishment.
    > That was the information I needed ...


    What information did that statement convey to you? I don't find it
    unambiguous at all.

    Cheers

    robert
     
    Robert Klemme, Oct 27, 2011
    #19
  20. On Thu, 27 Oct 2011 08:07:28 -0700 (PDT), Robert Klemme
    <> wrote:

    >On Oct 26, 9:52 am, wrote:
    >> I remembered a former working collegue who works as a Java developer
    >> in an IT department with some Perl programmers and asked him how he
    >> would compare a Perl programmer to a SAP programmer. He said comparing
    >> a Perl programmer with a SAP programmer deserves maximum punishment.
    >> That was the information I needed ...

    >
    >What information did that statement convey to you? I don't find it
    >unambiguous at all.


    I find it unambiguous. It is obvious that there is ill-will.

    OTOH, I do not find it useful.

    Sincerely,

    Gene Wirchenko
     
    Gene Wirchenko, Oct 27, 2011
    #20
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