beta.python.org content

[Magnus Lycka]

How does

http://beta.python.org/about/beginners/

look?

I think it's a well written text, but it looks more like
an introductionary chapter in a book about Python than a
text for a web site. A book looks the same for all its
readers, and it's basically sequential. Books also have
readers who've made much more of a commitment to read.
They won't click somewhere else just because it was dull
for ten seconds-

It's clear that this web site is intended to present
different information to different kinds of people, but
I don't understand for whom *this* text is written...

In fact I don't quite understand the "About" section at all,
with the subsections "For Beginners", "For Developers" and
"For Business" etc.

What does "About" mean? Is is "about this web site" or
is it "about the Python programming language". About
Python it seems. Isn't the whole site about Python?

If "about" really means "introduction", why doesn't it
say "Introduction".

Since the whole section seems to be geared towards people
who don't know a lot about Python already, and the "for
beginners" page seems to fend off people who are "completely
new to programming" with a link, it seems to me that it's
either for programmers or for some kind of decision makers
or reporters who'd prefer the business page anyway.

If we need some general introduction for all, it should be
much shorter, more like http://python.org/doc/Summary.html

Concerning the next entries in the "About" section (not what
you asked about, so this is just a bonus:

I don't like anyone to hand me different texts based on whom
I say I am. I want to know what the texts are about and decide
for myself where to go. These are texts, not dressing rooms!

So, describe the content of each page instead of saying "If
you're this kind of guy, we think you should read this page".
It's great to take different "actors" into account, but that
should not be the public labels on the web site. It's like
the desk for dissatisfied customers in a department store.
The sign on the outside says "complaints" or something like
that. The "stupid customers" sign has to be on the inside.
That's not what you present to the stupid customers...

Perhaps the "About Section" should look like this?

Introduction
-What is Python [short summary]
-Getting started [a.k.a. for beginners/programmers, how to d/l etc]
-Why Python? [a.k.a. for business]
-Success Stories
-Quotes

I don't quite understand why there is a "PSF" entry here. If
I went to the Python web site actively looking for info about
PSF, I would not look under the introductory "About" menu, but
rather under "community". If I'm new to Python, I'd probably
ignore that meaningless acronym. Please move to Community and
make a link from "Why Python" in a sentence describing how
using Python avoids vendor lock in.

 

[Dave Hansen]

Does anyone? There has to be a better logo! I thought the previous
requirement as established by the BDFL was no snakes. These are snakes,
and they have no personality to boot.

I like it, FWIW. Better than a dead parrot or a killer rabbit IMHO.
Though maybe not as funny...

Regards,
-=Dave

 

[Paul Boddie]

I like it, FWIW. Better than a dead parrot or a killer rabbit IMHO.
Though maybe not as funny...

Why not just take the Parrot logo and rotate it by 90 degrees? ;-)

http://www.parrotcode.org/

Paul

 

[Rocco Moretti]

With the nice font they've used, I don't understand why they didn't
turn the "p" into a snake itself. I'm sure I've seen that done
somewhere before.

You're probably thinking of PyPy:

http://codespeak.net/pypy/dist/pypy/doc/news.html

 

[Michael Tobis]

What about some permutation of the PyCon logo? It is really quite
brilliant.

Solves many problems:
dynamic, doesn't just sit there, looks like it is moving toward a
goal
direction of motion surprising and memorable
refers to software in the minds of experienced coders
takes advantage of the snake association without being creepy
reassuring to corporate types but fun and T-shirt friendly
can be permuted in lots of amusing ways, optionally as output from
code
first impression is cheerful, second impression is cleverness

http://www.python.org/pycon/2006/logo.png

Kudos to whoever came up with that, by the way!

mt

 

[Juho Schultz]

How does

http://beta.python.org/about/beginners/

look?

regards
Steve

I think the content is good, but I would suggest putting some bullet
points with links at the top. IMO top part of the beginner page should
somehow indicate that tutorial and FAQ is accessible from this page.

The page looks a bit dull - there is nothing bright-colored there.
Have a look at the www.holdenweb.com in your sig to see what I mean.
The small lines of red and yellow on the upper right and the orange
picture on used there makes the page a lot more alive.

 

[Tim Parkin]

...

I don't like anyone to hand me different texts based on whom
I say I am. I want to know what the texts are about and decide
for myself where to go. These are texts, not dressing rooms!

Unfortunately most people do.. That's why there are beginners books,
business books, advanced books etc..

So, describe the content of each page instead of saying "If
you're this kind of guy, we think you should read this page".
It's great to take different "actors" into account, but that
should not be the public labels on the web site. It's like
the desk for dissatisfied customers in a department store.
The sign on the outside says "complaints" or something like
that. The "stupid customers" sign has to be on the inside.
That's not what you present to the stupid customers...

Perhaps the "About Section" should look like this?

Introduction
-What is Python [short summary]
-Getting started [a.k.a. for beginners/programmers, how to d/l etc]
-Why Python? [a.k.a. for business]
-Success Stories
-Quotes

Looks good.. I'll have a bit more of a think about it, perhaps the
"getting started" and "why python" pages
could have sections within them (headers) for "if you are new to
programming" and "Should I use python in my business".

I don't quite understand why there is a "PSF" entry here. If
I went to the Python web site actively looking for info about
PSF, I would not look under the introductory "About" menu, but
rather under "community". If I'm new to Python, I'd probably
ignore that meaningless acronym. Please move to Community and
make a link from "Why Python" in a sentence describing how
using Python avoids vendor lock in.

OK.. I'll put it up as a ticket and try to change it around at the weekend.

Thanks for the feedback.

Tim

 

[Terry Hancock]

You're probably thinking of PyPy:

Huh.
Seems like the PyPy logo should surely be an Ouroboros!

 

[A.M. Kuchling]

What about some permutation of the PyCon logo? It is really quite
brilliant. ...
http://www.python.org/pycon/2006/logo.png

Kudos to whoever came up with that, by the way!

It was Michael Bernstein who designed it, I believe, and agree that
it's a great logo for PyCon.

--amk

 

[Scott David Daniels]

How does

http://beta.python.org/about/beginners/

look?

regards
Steve

I agree that links need better contrast (if you are taking over the
page coloring; you might consider avoiding that as well as font spec).

In the initial paragraph:
Welcome! Are you completely new to programming? If _not_ ....
I'd add something in the words to indicate what to do if you _are_
"completely new to programming." Perhaps simply this:
Welcome! Are you completely new to programming?
If so, click on _this_link_. If _not_ ....

Paragraph 3 in "Why Python":
Some people uppose because Python ...
I'd prefer the word "suppose."
and later in that paragraph, I'd change:
... extensions that provide compact numerical solutions
to:
... extensions that provide compact high-speed numerical solutions


--Scott David Daniels
(e-mail address removed)

 

[Terry Hancock]

Paragraph 3 in "Why Python":
Some people uppose because Python ...
I'd prefer the word "suppose."
and later in that paragraph, I'd change:
... extensions that provide compact numerical
solutions
to:
... extensions that provide compact high-speed
numerical solutions

And while we're at it, let's say "Python is a language for
programming high-speed, digital, electronic computers. Do
you have any experience with high-speed, digital, electronic
computers?"

:-D

For those who are too young, or weren't film students, the
answer is "Yes, my aunt has one".

Ironically, this is now funny for exactly the opposite
reason from the way it was intended!

 

[Shalabh Chaturvedi]

Perhaps the "About Section" should look like this?

Introduction
-What is Python [short summary]
-Getting started [a.k.a. for beginners/programmers, how to d/l etc]
-Why Python? [a.k.a. for business]
-Success Stories
-Quotes
+1

I don't quite understand why there is a "PSF" entry here. If
I went to the Python web site actively looking for info about
PSF, I would not look under the introductory "About" menu, but
rather under "community". If I'm new to Python, I'd probably
ignore that meaningless acronym. Please move to Community and
make a link from "Why Python" in a sentence describing how
using Python avoids vendor lock in.

+1

 

[Ron Rogers Jr.]

How does

http://beta.python.org/about/beginners/

look?

regards
Steve

Hi, I'm an actualy Python beginner, decided recently to "play" with
Python. I'm a "user", not a professional programmer or developer of any
sort, so I guess the "beginner's" page would be aimed at folks like me.

It looks fine, degrades pretty well in Dillo.

But.....it needs more Beginners links and info. The "Why Python" seems
a bit out of place, more akin to something that would be on the beta
home, which looks a little "corporate brochure site" to me. It also
seems a little "bland" as a beginner site goes. A little bit of "fun"
and "friendliness" in the spirit of "Python for Everyone" might be
something to add. That's what brought me to Python. The idea that
Python was not just for people like ESR who've been programmers for
decades, or for corporate types designing applications containing a new
paradigm of competencies in objective oriented programming, but for high
school students, hobbyist programmers and even those who've never
written a line of code in their lives.

It has been suggested that a Google-like hierarchy might be useful and I
agree, though I don't know how that might work in practice. You could
have a bland "brochure" site with the proper buzzwords for the
corporates, another for the devs with late breaking patches, news, RSS
feeds, whatever they need. and one for Education and/or beginners, with
perhaps a colorful friendly look. (but perhaps keeping the same basic
overall base look)

I actually like the look of the current http://www.python.org It packs
a lot of useful links in one page and it seems "friendly" Which
probably sounds silly to describe an emotional reaction or "feel" to a
site. Admittedly it doesn't look "corporate" or "slick professional" but
that's not necessarily a bad thing.

I agree with others about the new logo. It lacks a certain, pardon the
expression, "je ne sais quoi". (one of the things that got me interested
in Linux was seeing that penguin associated with the word "Linux" and
making me curious about what that Linux thing was all about) But it
would make a good logo for a "enterprise.python.org"
"business.python.org" So perhaps different logos for different purposes?

A cartoony friendly python in front of a blackboard for education
(similar to the Pygame python)

A python reading a book at the base of a larch for a listing of books

That sort of thing.

The python.org site's been useful to me, pointing me to interesting
software, documentation and whatnot. Though I didn't know about IDLE
until I saw it mentioned in a post on Slashdot in a story asking for
recommendations for Python IDE's. I am "very" new to Python.


CronoCloud (Ron Rogers Jr.)

 

[Bruce Cropley]

I'd like to see the use of Python grow as dramatically as it
deserves to. As I see it, there are at least three major categories
of web visitors that we need to cater to:
- Existing python users
- Potential python users
- Managers

The current site's front page seems to be aimed mainly at existing
python developers. I agree with Magnus about not specifying who
should be interested in a particular page.

The most effective web marketing of an Open Source development
tool recently has probably been http://www.rubyonrails.org/.
I think the link on the front page to a very slick coding video
demonstration helped a lot there.
Do we have anything like that for Python yet?

TurboGears (http://www.turbogears.org/index.html) seems to have
captured the same spirit of exciting marketing hype. They are both
very cool tools as well, but so is Python.
Can we adapt any of the techniques they use for the Python website?

Hope that helps,
Bruce

 

[Scott David Daniels]

And while we're at it, let's say "Python is a language for
programming high-speed, digital, electronic computers. Do
you have any experience with high-speed, digital, electronic
computers?"

The reason I included high-speed is that the paragraph is
responding to its topic sentence:

Some people (s)uppose because Python is an interpreted language
that it is slow and unsuitable for scientific and engineering tasks.
... Python's easy extensibility has allowed ... extensions that
provide compact numerical solutions.

I am simply saying that "compact numerical solutions" doesn't really
address the question of whether they are too slow.

> For those who are too young, or weren't film students, the
> answer is "Yes, my aunt has one".

Well, I am definitely not too young, but I was never a film student.
What movie?

--Scott David Daniels
(e-mail address removed)

 

[Paul Rubin]

Of course, in the original concept, the interviewer is the
straight man asking Allen's character about the "obviously"
esoteric and high-tech field of computers for which someone
like him is "obviously" not qualified. His statement that
his Aunt has a computer was as incongruous in 1969 as
claiming that she had a Saturn V or a Space Shuttle in her
back yard.

I never saw that movie but there's a scene sort of like it in "Blast
from the Past". Basically a guy with a 1960's science education
(because he grew up in an underground bomb shelter) emerges into the
world of the 90's. When he's told that his friend has a personal
computer, his reaction is "His own computer?! You mean, inside the
house?!" etc.

 

[Terry Hancock]

The reason I included high-speed is that the paragraph is
responding to its topic sentence:

You just touched my funny bone there. There's nothing wrong
with the edit, really. ;-)

Well, I am definitely not too young, but I was never a
film student. What movie?

Take the Money and Run (1969)
Directed by Woody Allen

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0065063/

Of course, in the original concept, the interviewer is the
straight man asking Allen's character about the "obviously"
esoteric and high-tech field of computers for which someone
like him is "obviously" not qualified. His statement that
his Aunt has a computer was as incongruous in 1969 as
claiming that she had a Saturn V or a Space Shuttle in her
back yard.

*Today*, the funny one is the interviewer, and Allen's line
that his Aunt has one is perfectly reasonable. Even a mere
10 years later in 1979, this was true. I always found that
ironic.

 

[robin]

How does

http://beta.python.org/about/beginners/

look?

There are several things wrong with the interface.

First, I count seven ways of formatting a link. This is approximately
five too many and can be fixed as follows.

"For Beginners" is italicised, supposedly to indicate it is the page
we are currently on. This overloads the normal expected meaning of
italics with something unexpected. And what is the point of a link to
the current page? This should be plain text.

"About" is a top-level menu which has been expanded; to indicate this
there is a yellow bar. This is not necessary since the viewer can see
the menu is expanded.

The menu items underneath an expanded heading should be in the same
format, but offset. Same format says "menu"; offset says "child."

The last menu items are in different formats yet again (typeface and
size). I see no reason for this.

Once this has been done there will be but two different ways of
formatting a link: a menu and a link in the page body.

In terms of page space, the horizontal bar at the top seems wasted.
Perhaps the vertical bar is all that is needed? The other elements
could be relocated.

The menu is structured with a list and formatted with CSS. Good!

Given that there is already a hierarchical organisation of the content
voa the collapsing menu bar, I do not think that another
representation of this is required above the main page text. I would
ditch the link trail.

Overall, the look is very "safe corporate". I myself would have gone
for a funkier (though still elegant) look. The energy of the Python
community is not being communicated. The vim of the language is
diluted. This is not playing to Python's strengths.

Yes, i have been known to do this for a living. Had I been aware
earlier, I would have been happy to help with the redesign. How can I
now?

P.S. I am not averse to the new logo. It is professional, clean, and
symbolic. Maybe there are more ideal choices but we have to get beyond
little green cartoon snakes eventually.

 

[Steve Holden]

There are several things wrong with the interface.

First, I count seven ways of formatting a link. This is approximately
five too many and can be fixed as follows.

"For Beginners" is italicised, supposedly to indicate it is the page
we are currently on. This overloads the normal expected meaning of
italics with something unexpected. And what is the point of a link to
the current page? This should be plain text.

"About" is a top-level menu which has been expanded; to indicate this
there is a yellow bar. This is not necessary since the viewer can see
the menu is expanded.

The menu items underneath an expanded heading should be in the same
format, but offset. Same format says "menu"; offset says "child."

The last menu items are in different formats yet again (typeface and
size). I see no reason for this.

Once this has been done there will be but two different ways of
formatting a link: a menu and a link in the page body.

In terms of page space, the horizontal bar at the top seems wasted.
Perhaps the vertical bar is all that is needed? The other elements
could be relocated.

The menu is structured with a list and formatted with CSS. Good!

Given that there is already a hierarchical organisation of the content
voa the collapsing menu bar, I do not think that another
representation of this is required above the main page text. I would
ditch the link trail.

Overall, the look is very "safe corporate". I myself would have gone
for a funkier (though still elegant) look. The energy of the Python
community is not being communicated. The vim of the language is
diluted. This is not playing to Python's strengths.

Yes, i have been known to do this for a living. Had I been aware
earlier, I would have been happy to help with the redesign. How can I
now?

I'm sure Tim Parkin will be happy to discuss this with you, as he is
also involved on the design side.

I was mostly looking for content criticism, but anything that helps is a
Good Thing.

P.S. I am not averse to the new logo. It is professional, clean, and
symbolic. Maybe there are more ideal choices but we have to get beyond
little green cartoon snakes eventually.

regards
Steve

 

[Fredrik Lundh]

Overall, the look is very "safe corporate". I myself would have gone
for a funkier (though still elegant) look. The energy of the Python
community is not being communicated. The vim of the language is
diluted. This is not playing to Python's strengths.

Yes, i have been known to do this for a living. Had I been aware
earlier, I would have been happy to help with the redesign. How
can I now?

you can either try joining the beta.python.org cathedral (good luck), or drop by
the skunkworks (http://effbot.org/zone/pydotorg.htm) and help me whip together
some nice templates.

(if I could pick a style, I'd go for something that has some visual connection to the
existing site style, but reworked for 2006 and today's Python universe).

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