Blowing the doors to Palm - Java programming for Tungsten handhelds

Discussion in 'Java' started by asj, Jul 29, 2003.

  1. asj

    asj Guest

    All Palm Tungstens will now ship with the JVM (Java Virtual Machine),
    which means that Java programmers can now write directly to these
    handhelds (with no need to download the jvm - an annoying and
    debilitating thing when you want to easily reach end-users).

    Because of IBM and Palm's new alliance to extend and solidify Palm's
    dominance in the enterprise, it is essential for developers (whether
    java, palm, or other) to see what opportunities might be lurking behind
    these events.

    For Java programmers, Why write to Palms?
    http://www.blueboard.com/j2me/stats.htm#palm
    http://www.blueboard.com/j2me/why.htm#pda

    For Palm programmers, what's Java's J2ME? Why should I write in J2ME?
    http://www.blueboard.com/j2me/intro.htm
    http://www.blueboard.com/j2me/why.htm

    today's headlines:
    http://techupdate.zdnet.com/techupdate/stories/main/0,14179,2914374,00.html

    --------------------------------------------------------

    In one of the first moves to demonstrate that Palm Solutions Group (the
    hardware guys) and operating-system spinout PalmSource (the software
    guys) are two autonomous companies, Palm Solutions Group (PSG) has
    announced that it will be making a Java Virtual Machine (JVM) available
    for all of its Tungsten handheld offerings: the Bluetooth-enabled "T,"
    the wireless wide area network-enabled "W," and the Wi-Fi enabled "C."

    The change in strategy also affects the T2, a successor to the Tungsten
    T that was launched last week.

    The reason this announcement demonstrates the autonomy between the two
    formerly married organizations is that PalmSource is so far content to
    live without Java. For Palm users, however, including a JVM means access
    to more enterprise, and consumer, applications.

    PalmSourceCEO David Nagel has repeatedly insisted that the Palm OS
    ecosystem can continue to thrive and grow without including a JVM as a
    standard component.

    In a recent interview, Nagel told me he had no problem with providing
    both development environments --- Palm OS and Java --- to developers.
    "But Sun is very difficult to work with," said Nagel. "They do not make
    it easy. We were one of the early members of the JCP [Java Community
    Process]. We tried to build a PDA profile, sort of a Java 2 Micro
    Edition (the mobile JVM) grown up a little bit. But we decided that was
    sort of a bifurcation, and that it created more problems than it solved.
    Sun didn't like it. They wouldn't support it, so we decided that we
    weren't going to go through with it and that we would leave J2ME be." In
    light of that, Nagel is content with the 19,000 applications he says are
    available for the Palm OS (up from 12,500 from last year) and the
    280,000 developers.

    But PSG director of strategic alliances Chris Morgan wasn't satisfied.
    In June, he struck a deal with IBM to include that company's version of
    J2ME, known as WebSphere Micro Edition (WME, formerly known as "J9"), in
    all Tungstens moving forward. The move means that PSG now gets to tap
    into both the Palm OS and Java ecosystems, the latter weighing in at 3
    million developers and growing. According to Morgan, "The way I look at
    is, we now have 3,280,000 developers."

    To the extent that developers are one of the three lynchpins (in
    addition to applications and users/installations) to most ecosystems in
    our industry, the Tungsten ecosystem appears to have gotten a
    significant boost. For PSG, this is a smart move, particularly because
    the Tungstens haven't been doing as well as the company had originally
    hoped they would..

    This is good news for Java developers, too. Prior to the announcement,
    Java developers had limited access to the Palm market. If they wanted
    their applications to run on the Palm OS, their only choice was to
    redevelop their applications natively for the Palm platform, or to get
    their target customers to buy, install, and configure a JVM from a third
    party like Insignia. With this announcement, the "anywhere" part of the
    Java promise --- the ability to write software once and deploy it
    anywhere --- is closer to reality. The target for Java developers will
    grow by the number of Tungstens that are in the market.
     
    asj, Jul 29, 2003
    #1
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  2. asj

    username Guest

    <just another java rambling by asj deleted>

    removed microsoft.public.pocketpc from the crosspostinglist, as this posting
    is irrelevant to that newsgroup
     
    username, Jul 29, 2003
    #2
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  3. Java programming for Tungsten handhelds

    "RaBi" <> wrote:
    >
    > Nevertheless I consider this a good news - I
    > am a Java guy and have been waiting for this


    Waiting for the announcement, or waiting for Palm to follow through
    with it? Palm has made that same announcement almost word for word at
    every JavaOne conference since the late 1990's.

    I'm not holding my breath.
     
    Brandon Blackmoor, Jul 30, 2003
    #3
  4. Re: Java programming for Tungsten handhelds

    Where would one find info on Java in general and this particular "In
    June, he struck a deal with IBM to include that company's version of
    J2ME, known as WebSphere Micro Edition (WME, formerly known as "J9"),
    in all Tungstens moving forward." version of it?

    Is Java very difficult, compared to C, Perl, etc?

    --
    William Smith
    ComputerSmiths Consulting, Inc. www.compusmiths.com
     
    William P.N. Smith, Jul 30, 2003
    #4
  5. asj

    Ananda Sim Guest

    Re: Java programming for Tungsten handhelds

    Hi

    Thanks for that overview and references. Whilst we wait for J2ME for
    PocketPC (I assume there is none), is it worth bothering playing with
    alternatives like EWE?

    Ananda

    "asj" <> wrote in message news:...
    > William P.N. Smith wrote:
    > >
    > > Where would one find info on Java in general and this particular "In
    > > June, he struck a deal with IBM to include that company's version of
    > > J2ME, known as WebSphere Micro Edition (WME, formerly known as "J9"),
    > > in all Tungstens moving forward." version of it?
    > >
    > > Is Java very difficult, compared to C, Perl, etc?

    >
    >
    > java is comparable to the "3Cs" (c/c#/c++) in difficulty.
    >
    > because the java platform is pervasive in servers and clients, by
    > learning java, you will be able to extend your reach from servers
    > (including mainframes), all the way down to smartphones, smartcards, and
    > other small devices.
    >
    > it is divided into 3 areas:
    > J2EE (Java 2 Enterprise Edition) - for programming on servers
    > J2SE (Java 2 Standard Edition) - standard programming classes
    > J2ME (Java 2 MicroEdition) - for programming wireless and other small
    > devices.
    >
    > we are concerned here with j2me.
    >
    > Here's some tips on how to start on J2ME:
    > http://www.blueboard.com/j2me/start.htm
    >
    > Site that focuses on current news and developer articles:
    > http://www.blueboard.com/j2me/
    >
    > THE java site (run by Sun Microsystems):
    > http://java.sun.com/
    >
    > J2ME:
    > http://java.sun.com/j2me/
    >
    > IBM's Websphere Microedition toolsets:
    > http://www-3.ibm.com/software/wireless/wsdd/
    >
    > If you want to run just the standard MIDP, you will need to download the
    > MIDP toolkit:
    > http://java.sun.com/products/j2mewtoolkit/download-2_0.html
     
    Ananda Sim, Jul 30, 2003
    #5
  6. Re: Java programming for Tungsten handhelds

    If you've programmed a bit in C++, Java isn't any stretch... Some feel that
    the object model in Java is a little bit simpler than in C++.

    Frankly, Java reminds me of a cross between Pascal or Modula and C with some
    object-related sugar sprinkled on liberally.

    dennis parrott

    "William P.N. Smith" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Where would one find info on Java in general and this particular "In
    > June, he struck a deal with IBM to include that company's version of
    > J2ME, known as WebSphere Micro Edition (WME, formerly known as "J9"),
    > in all Tungstens moving forward." version of it?
    >
    > Is Java very difficult, compared to C, Perl, etc?
    >
    > --
    > William Smith
    > ComputerSmiths Consulting, Inc. www.compusmiths.com
     
    dennis m parrott, Jul 30, 2003
    #6
  7. asj

    Person Guest

    Re: Java programming for Tungsten handhelds

    asj <> wrote in message news:<>...
    > Brandon Blackmoor wrote:
    > >
    > > "RaBi" <> wrote:
    > > >
    > > > Nevertheless I consider this a good news - I
    > > > am a Java guy and have been waiting for this

    > >
    > > Waiting for the announcement, or waiting for Palm to follow through
    > > with it? Palm has made that same announcement almost word for word at
    > > every JavaOne conference since the late 1990's.
    > >
    > > I'm not holding my breath.

    >
    >
    > you don't need to....it'll be shipping by fall (unlike before, when
    > announced shipping dates were nebulous at best).......this time, (1)
    > it's IBM that made the joint announcement; (2) it's not Palm the
    > handheld maker that is doing this, but the now-separate entity
    > PalmSource; (3) PalmSource NEEDS IBM to gain more traction in the
    > enterprise...you could say, Palm needs IBM (and Java) more than IBM
    > needs Palm....


    SuperWaba!
    SuperWaba!
    SuperWaba!
    A VM for Java.
    ??? where you can dl. Chck Google.
     
    Person, Jul 30, 2003
    #7
  8. On Tue, 29 Jul 2003 15:18:27 -0400, asj <> wrote:

    --<snip>--

    >> Yet the users of the many non-Tungsten PalmOS devices are out of reach. So
    >> the market for Java on Palm is really limited outside of controlled
    >> corporate environments.
    >> I think it requires at least all Palm devices and Sonys to build a solid
    >> market.

    >
    >
    >take a look at J2ME...the market for smartphones in the consumer field
    >is actually several times larger than that of handhelds and climbing
    >fast (nearly 100 million java-enabled phones since last year)....J2ME
    >will allow you to write to many smartphones AND now palm tungstens and
    >other handhelds....


    And you can do it with one codebase. I'm from the Java-Chess team
    ( http://www.java-chess.de ) and it took me less than 2 hrs to run the
    J2ME version on POSE (emulating a 2MB(!) Palm M100). Most of this time
    was spent adding the pointing device to our control layer. And those M100
    are really cheap on eBay, so I might get me one just for fun.
    Now if my midp4palm version would support PNG transparency it would look
    somewhat better...

    Ciao,
    Andreas
     
    Andreas Rueckert, Jul 30, 2003
    #8
  9. asj

    RaBi Guest

    Re: Java programming for Tungsten handhelds

    "dennis m parrott" <> wrote in message
    news:rvHVa.221196$...
    > If you've programmed a bit in C++, Java isn't any stretch... Some feel

    that
    > the object model in Java is a little bit simpler than in C++.

    ACK

    Learning the Java language takes a couple of hours - a couple of days if you
    want to know the details like static intializers, bit shifting, inner
    classes, ...
    Easy.

    The hard part is in the APIs. There are so many APIs available that you can
    learn Java 24/7 for the next year. And then start all over again because
    most APIs have evolved in the meantime. Just think about all the nice
    acronyms AWT, Swing, EJB, JDO, RMI, JavaMail, JMS, Servlets, JSP, JDBC, etc,
    etc

    Learning the Java language is like learning all characters between A and Z:
    Very easy but without knowing words, grammatics and all that stuff that's
    worth nothing...

    I'm not discouraging you from learning Java but be prepared to learn a lot.
    I've been working full time in Java for 6 years now and still busy
    learning...

    #rb
     
    RaBi, Jul 30, 2003
    #9
  10. asj

    RaBi Guest

    Re: Java programming for Tungsten handhelds

    "Brandon Blackmoor" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Waiting for the announcement, or waiting for Palm to follow through
    > with it? Palm has made that same announcement almost word for word at
    > every JavaOne conference since the late 1990's.

    Yes- I still have my good old Palm V bought a that JavaOne when they showed
    us Java on it. Must have been '98 or '99.

    But this time I think it's different. Big blue is much more reliable than
    Sun when announcing that sort of stuff.


    #rb
     
    RaBi, Jul 30, 2003
    #10
  11. asj

    RaBi Guest

    Re: Java programming for Tungsten handhelds

    > Take a look at this simple application, for instance:
    > class SimpleApp {
    > System.out.println("Dude, this is neat!");
    > }


    wow... that's cool. Doesn't even compile!
     
    RaBi, Jul 30, 2003
    #11
  12. asj

    asj Guest

    Re: Java programming for Tungsten handhelds

    RaBi wrote:
    >
    > > Take a look at this simple application, for instance:
    > > class SimpleApp {
    > > System.out.println("Dude, this is neat!");
    > > }

    >
    > wow... that's cool. Doesn't even compile!


    LOL. perhaps actually including a main method (which is executed first
    when an app is called) would help, as in:

    public class SimpleApp {

    public static void main (String [] args)
    {
    System.out.println("hello.");
    }

    }
     
    asj, Jul 30, 2003
    #12
  13. asj

    username Guest

    Re: Java programming for Tungsten handhelds

    "asj" <> wrote in message news:...
    > Ananda Sim wrote:
    > >
    > > Hi
    > >
    > > Thanks for that overview and references. Whilst we wait for J2ME for
    > > PocketPC (I assume there is none), is it worth bothering playing with
    > > alternatives like EWE?
    > >
    > > Ananda
    > >

    >
    > there are actually JVMs for windows handhelds, eg.:
    > http://www.blueboard.com/j2me/notes/2002_7_26.htm
    >
    > however, there is some concern that sun has decided not to move forward
    > with anything for the latest windows ce, nor does there seem to be
    > anyone taking the ball in their stead.


    well thats bad news for java. Add to it that within 2 years, 30% of all new
    cars come equipped with win ce devices ....
     
    username, Jul 30, 2003
    #13
  14. asj

    username Guest

    "asj" <> wrote in message news:...
    > All Palm Tungstens will now ship with the JVM (Java Virtual Machine),
    > which means that Java programmers can now write directly to these
    > handhelds (with no need to download the jvm - an annoying and
    > debilitating thing when you want to easily reach end-users).


    yawn
     
    username, Jul 30, 2003
    #14
  15. asj

    asj Guest

    Re: Java programming for Tungsten handhelds

    username wrote:
    > well thats bad news for java. Add to it that within 2 years, 30% of all new
    > cars come equipped with win ce devices ....


    not particularly, since there will be probably be MORE cars coming out
    using J2ME, which has GM and others behind it.
    note that j2me will run on top of wince (or any other os like linux or
    palm) if needed, OR it may run by itself as the OS - so by knowing java
    you can also program on top of whatever OS is used....it's the best of
    any world.

    also, wince seems to be stumbling around:

    for example, in the handheld market in europe:
    "In the European market from Q2 2002 to Q2 2003, Palm and Sony (both
    Palm OS) showed significant year-on-year growth of 45 per cent and 64
    per cent, respectively. HP's shipments (Windows CE) grew too, by 2%, but
    not enough to prevent its market share TUMBLING from 36% to 25%."

    in the case of handheld phones, smartcards, and SIM cards for handsets,
    it's not even close, with J2ME crushing wince in terms of deployment and
    commercial success (not vaporware).
    http://www.blueboard.com/j2me/why.htm
     
    asj, Jul 30, 2003
    #15
  16. Re: Java programming for Tungsten handhelds

    username wrote:
    > "asj" <> wrote in message news:...
    >> however, there is some concern that sun has decided not to
    >> move forward with anything for the latest windows ce

    >
    > well thats bad news for java.


    WinCE is crap. Why bother supporting it?

    > Add to it that within 2 years, 30% of all new
    > cars come equipped with win ce devices ....


    That'll last until auto manufacturers learn what computer manufacturers
    already know. People grudgingly accept that their computer crash
    periodically. They won't be so patient when their car's expensive
    WinCE-based dashboard is as unreliable as their AOL account.
     
    Brandon Blackmoor, Jul 30, 2003
    #16
  17. asj

    asj Guest

    Roedy Green wrote:
    >
    > On Tue, 29 Jul 2003 20:30:34 +0200, "RaBi" <>
    > wrote or quoted :
    >
    > >I think it requires at least all Palm devices and Sonys to build a solid
    > >market.

    >
    > Palm apps don't have to be complex to be valuable. Canadian doctors
    > pay for example for a little app that just lists the prices of various
    > medications in US dollars. It does not even convert to Canadian for
    > them automatically much less give them much lower Canadian prices.
    >



    very good point (although i'm not sure how it relates to what he just
    said)...a lot of people have the mistaken notion that to be successful,
    an app has to do everything but wash the kitchen sink, and it has to do
    it in color. in fact, there are large numbers of small niches that could
    be profitably exploited if researched and marketed correctly.
     
    asj, Jul 31, 2003
    #17
  18. Re: Java programming for Tungsten handhelds

    On Wed, 30 Jul 2003 21:43:02 +0200, "username" <e-mail@adress>
    wrote:

    >well thats bad news for java. Add to it that within 2 years, 30% of all new
    >cars come equipped with win ce devices ....


    Hmm, adding a crash prone OS to a crash prone transportation
    system. Great!

    As a point of interest, what handy functions is this expected to
    add?

    --
    Eric Lindsay http://www.ericlindsay.com/guff
    Airlie Beach Qld Australia - Great Barrier Reef entry
    Psion & Epoc site http://www.ericlindsay.com/epoc
     
    Eric Lindsay's spam trap, Jul 31, 2003
    #18
  19. asj

    RaBi Guest

    "asj" <> wrote in message news:...
    > All Palm Tungstens will now ship with the JVM (Java Virtual Machine),
    > which means that Java programmers can now write directly to these
    > handhelds (with no need to download the jvm - an annoying and
    > debilitating thing when you want to easily reach end-users).


    BTW: I just tried IBM's JVM. Doesn't run on my Zire71 but according to spec
    it's not supposed to be ready for PalmOS 5. Runs without probs on my Palm V
    with OS3.5 but a small HelloWorld takes 14 sec to show up. Still Tungstens
    are much faster so we'll see.

    #rb
     
    RaBi, Jul 31, 2003
    #19
  20. asj

    asj Guest

    Re: Java programming for Tungsten handhelds

    Arthur Hagen wrote:
    > As for java, I doubt that's a wise choice in situations where microseconds
    > count. I hope they don't use it for things like ABS braking, suspension
    > assist or airbag release. Else the car might throw more than a runtime
    > exception.



    believe it or not, real time java is starting to compete (and win)
    against ADA and C alternatives in real world situations.

    http://groups.google.com/groups?q=r...F-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=&rnum=2
     
    asj, Jul 31, 2003
    #20
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