Browser with best CSS paged media support?

Discussion in 'HTML' started by Laurens, Aug 18, 2003.

  1. Laurens

    Laurens Guest

    Hi,


    Which browser has the best CSS paged media support? [1]

    I'm about to write a business plan, which needs to be printed on paper to be
    presented to the bank. Now I cringe at doing this in Word, as I'm far more
    comfortable with hand-coding HTML and CSS(though I've never used the
    print-specific CSS elements).


    Thanks
    -Laurens

    [1] http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/page.html
    Laurens, Aug 18, 2003
    #1
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  2. In article <bhqp93$7b4$>, says...
    >
    > Which browser has the best CSS paged media support?
    > (...)


    For CSS media print, I have the best experiences with Opera. It's the
    same as other browsers in most regards, but it respects page-break
    definitions.
    I suppose the latest Mozilla might also be worthwhile checking out.
    Philipp Lenssen, Aug 18, 2003
    #2
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  3. Laurens

    DU Guest

    Laurens wrote:

    > Hi,
    >
    >
    > Which browser has the best CSS paged media support? [1]
    >
    > I'm about to write a business plan, which needs to be printed on paper to be
    > presented to the bank. Now I cringe at doing this in Word, as I'm far more
    > comfortable with hand-coding HTML and CSS(though I've never used the
    > print-specific CSS elements).
    >
    >
    > Thanks
    > -Laurens
    >
    > [1] http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/page.html
    >
    >



    http://www.westciv.com/style_master/academy/browser_support/printing.html

    but don't expect 100% reliable data from this chart. Browsers always
    have bugs; sometimes normal basic testcases do not identify browser
    bugs. And browsers are continually being improved.

    NS 7.1 support for the page media must be a lot better than the data in
    that chart as 12 months of bug fixes and improvements were added into NS
    7.1 over NS 7.0. It's not clear.

    Bug 24000: CSS page-break-before/after:always Support
    http://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=24000

    Bug 115199: @page in CSS2 not implemented
    http://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=115199

    Bug 132035: Support all page-break-* CSS2 properties
    http://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=132035

    DU
    --
    Javascript and Browser bugs:
    http://www10.brinkster.com/doctorunclear/
    - Resources, help and tips for Netscape 7.x users and Composer
    - Interactive demos on Popup windows, music (audio/midi) in Netscape 7.x
    http://www10.brinkster.com/doctorunclear/Netscape7/Netscape7Section.html
    DU, Aug 18, 2003
    #3
  4. Laurens

    Andy Dingley Guest

    On Mon, 18 Aug 2003 16:01:50 +0100, "PeterMcC" <>
    wrote:

    >I know it's not the answer you're wanting but I'd seriously suggest you use
    >a word processor or DTP package.


    How many UK banks do you know (for that's where we both are) who could
    accept a business plan by email ? My bank (Lloyds) doesn't even
    offer _phone_ access to my local branch.
    Andy Dingley, Aug 18, 2003
    #4
  5. Laurens

    PeterMcC Guest

    Andy Dingley wrote:
    > On Mon, 18 Aug 2003 16:01:50 +0100, "PeterMcC" <>
    > wrote:
    >
    >> I know it's not the answer you're wanting but I'd seriously suggest
    >> you use a word processor or DTP package.

    >
    > How many UK banks do you know (for that's where we both are) who could
    > accept a business plan by email ? My bank (Lloyds) doesn't even
    > offer _phone_ access to my local branch.


    I understood that the OP was planning on writing "... a business plan, which
    needs to be printed on paper to be presented to the bank."

    I'm afraid that I can't understand the point of your question; however, the
    answer, since my knowledge of banking procedures is limited to those of the
    one that I use, is 'one'.

    --
    PeterMcC
    If you feel that any of the above is incorrect,
    inappropriate or offensive in any way,
    please ignore it and accept my apologies.
    PeterMcC, Aug 18, 2003
    #5
  6. Laurens

    Andy Dingley Guest

    On Mon, 18 Aug 2003 21:52:38 +0100, "PeterMcC" <>
    wrote:

    >I understood that the OP was planning on writing "... a business plan, which
    >needs to be printed on paper to be presented to the bank."


    So printed HTML is perfectly adequate.

    The only time I send word-processed documents out electronically in
    ..doc format is when they're going to the (all too many) muppets who
    sincerely believe that Word is the only editor on the planet and that
    Outhouse is a mail client. I did go through a phase of sending PDF's
    out to recruiters in the IT agency (to stop the devious little slimes
    editing my CV), but found out that very few could print them.

    If you think that the only way to get a decent layout on paper is to
    use Word, then there's a bridge in Seattle you seem to have already
    bought. And that's without dredging up DocBook, *roff, TeX and DEC
    runoff.



    In response to the original question (from politeness more than useful
    information) then IMHE they're all still broken. I know I'm out of
    date here, but the CSS page-break situation still seems sufficiently
    unreliable that I've not yet felt the urge to re-evaluate it.
    Andy Dingley, Aug 18, 2003
    #6
  7. You have NO CONTROL over which browser your banker will use, assuming they
    even know what a browser is. And if they do know what a browser is, they
    might not know how to print a paper copy that will have a physical
    appearance better than crap.

    Use a word processor and submit it on paper or in PDF format. That way yu
    can count on the fonts and font sizes being what YOU want.

    "Laurens" <> wrote in message
    news:bhqp93$7b4$...
    > Hi,
    >
    >
    > Which browser has the best CSS paged media support? [1]
    >
    > I'm about to write a business plan, which needs to be printed on paper to

    be
    > presented to the bank. Now I cringe at doing this in Word, as I'm far more
    > comfortable with hand-coding HTML and CSS(though I've never used the
    > print-specific CSS elements).
    >
    >
    > Thanks
    > -Laurens
    >
    > [1] http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/page.html
    >
    >
    news.frontiernet.net, Aug 19, 2003
    #7
  8. "news.frontiernet.net" <> wrote:

    > You have NO CONTROL over which browser your banker will use,


    Thank you for the usual bogosity alerts (incorrect From field,
    SHOUTING, upside-down quoting, etc.). Please continue using them until
    you have contribution to make.

    As usual, comprehensive quoting indicates lack of comprehensive
    reading. The question described:

    >> I'm about to write a business plan, which needs to be printed on
    >> paper to be presented to the bank.


    There's no need for any banker to use any browser for that.

    > Use a word processor and submit it on paper or in PDF format. That
    > way yu can count on the fonts and font sizes being what YOU want.


    Word processors normally produce text in their proprietary formats,
    _not_ in PDF format. Anyway, what you describe is an attempt to fight
    against the strengths of the Web and of the HTML format.

    The real issue, which you have completely missed, was how to author in
    HTML _and_ have the document formatted nicely on paper. If the paper
    format is the only one in which the document is really needed, I would
    vote for MS Word. It _is_ a useful program, though partly poorly
    documented and with lots of irritating features. If the document should
    also be available in cross-platform format, maybe for use on the Web or
    in an intranet, then HTML format might be the best master format.

    Unfortunately the method of using CSS is still rather limited in that
    respect, though, depending on the nature of the document, it might work
    reasonably, if the page is printed Opera or Mozilla. The specifically
    page-oriented features of CSS work rather poorly at present, but for a
    business plan, it would probably be sufficient to create an edited copy
    of the page with "forced" page breaks (e.g. with page-break-before:
    always) using CSS. And this might mean that the author needs to work on
    that copy iteratively, using the Print Preview function of the browser
    to decide on the page breaks. It's a bit dull work, but probably
    tolerable. And setting fonts and font sizes in CSS works just fine for
    the purpose.

    --
    Yucca, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/
    Pages about Web authoring: http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/www.html
    Jukka K. Korpela, Aug 19, 2003
    #8
  9. news.frontiernet.net wrote:

    > Use a word processor and submit it on paper or in PDF format.


    I assumed that Laurens would be submitting in paper format anyway, hence:

    | I'm about to write a business plan, which needs to be printed on paper
    | to be presented to the bank.

    And in answer to the original question. Opera is far and away the best
    browser for this sort of thing. It has one or two minor problems[1], but
    no show-stoppers.

    [1] For example, I don't think it yet can handle tables spilling over
    multiple pages and using the <tfoot> and <thead> on each page.

    --
    Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS | mailto: | pgp:0x6A2A7D39
    aim:inka80 | icq:6622880 | yahoo:tobyink | jabber:
    http://www.goddamn.co.uk/tobyink/ | "You've got spam!"
    playing://(nothing)
    Toby A Inkster, Aug 19, 2003
    #9
  10. Laurens

    PeterMcC Guest

    Andy Dingley wrote:
    > On Mon, 18 Aug 2003 21:52:38 +0100, "PeterMcC" <>
    > wrote:
    >
    >> I understood that the OP was planning on writing "... a business
    >> plan, which needs to be printed on paper to be presented to the
    >> bank."

    >
    > So printed HTML is perfectly adequate.
    >

    <snip>
    >
    > If you think that the only way to get a decent layout on paper is to
    > use Word, then there's a bridge in Seattle you seem to have already
    > bought. And that's without dredging up DocBook, *roff, TeX and DEC
    > runoff.
    >


    I have, for some years, laboured under the impression that preparing a
    document for print would be best done using a word processor or DTP
    package - I shall try marking up my next document in HTML, thanks for the
    hint which I will pass on to my clients in the publishing industry. As
    regards Seattle, I'm afraid that I have no idea how that links into my
    suggestion of a word processor or DTP package - if it's a reference to
    Microsoft's products, I'm afraid that you've picked up an inference from
    elsewhere in the thread that wasn't mine.


    --
    PeterMcC
    If you feel that any of the above is incorrect,
    inappropriate or offensive in any way,
    please ignore it and accept my apologies.
    PeterMcC, Aug 19, 2003
    #10
  11. On Mon, 18 Aug 2003 22:30:03 +0100, Andy Dingley
    <> wrote:

    >On Mon, 18 Aug 2003 21:52:38 +0100, "PeterMcC" <>
    >wrote:
    >
    >>I understood that the OP was planning on writing "... a business plan, which
    >>needs to be printed on paper to be presented to the bank."

    >
    >So printed HTML is perfectly adequate.


    I have to disagree here. There is for example no way to specify page
    headers and footers in HTML (except to the extent that <TITLE> is used
    for such).

    If the aim is to provide universal access to information, use HTML. If
    you want to produce a printed document, use a word-processor. (Doesn't
    have to be Word, of course.) A question of appropriate tools for the
    job.

    If you want to provide something via HTML, but also give yourself the
    best option for printing a reasonably presentable copy, then Opera 7
    seems to provide the best support for the CSS page-break properties at
    present.

    --
    Stephen Poley

    http://www.xs4all.nl/~sbpoley/webmatters/
    Stephen Poley, Aug 19, 2003
    #11
  12. Laurens

    Laurens Guest

    Thanks everyone for their responses.

    I'm using an application that helps you set up a business plan(essentially
    it's just a questionnaire). Now the good thing about this program is that it
    stores its data in an XML file. My initial plan was to write the sections of
    the business plan not covered by the questionnaire in XHTML, transform the
    questionnaire XML data using XSLT to XHTML, and finally merge the results in
    one document. Instead, I went with XSL:FO, which I didn't have any
    experience with until yesterday. I transform both my XHTML document and the
    questionnaire data to XSL:FO and run it through Apache FOP to produce a PDF.
    FOP may have its limitations, but it works well enough for my purposes. The
    end result is as good as anything I can produce in Word.


    Thanks
    -Laurens
    Laurens, Aug 19, 2003
    #12
  13. Laurens

    Stan Brown Guest

    In article <Xns93DC5F113DFEFjkorpelacstutfi@193.229.0.31> in
    comp.infosystems.www.authoring.html, Jukka K. Korpela
    <> wrote:
    >Unfortunately the method of using CSS is still rather limited in that
    >respect, though, depending on the nature of the document, it might work
    >reasonably, if the page is printed Opera or Mozilla. The specifically
    >page-oriented features of CSS work rather poorly at present, but for a
    >business plan, it would probably be sufficient to create an edited copy
    >of the page with "forced" page breaks (e.g. with page-break-before:
    >always) using CSS. And this might mean that the author needs to work on
    >that copy iteratively, using the Print Preview function of the browser
    >to decide on the page breaks.


    This is pretty much what I do with materials for my class, when
    there is a particularly bad page break on the uncontrolled first
    attempt at printing.

    Be aware that Mozilla will not break pages on paper quite the same
    as it does in Print Preview -- an annoying bug that is still with us
    in 1.4 but I hope will be fixed un bel di.

    --
    Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA
    http://OakRoadSystems.com/
    HTML 4.01 spec: http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/
    validator: http://validator.w3.org/
    CSS 2 spec: http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/
    validator: http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/
    Stan Brown, Aug 19, 2003
    #13
  14. "Laurens" <> wrote in message
    news:bhqp93$7b4$...
    > Hi,
    >
    >
    > Which browser has the best CSS paged media support? [1]
    >
    > I'm about to write a business plan, which needs to be printed on paper to

    be
    > presented to the bank. Now I cringe at doing this in Word, as I'm far more
    > comfortable with hand-coding HTML and CSS(though I've never used the
    > print-specific CSS elements).
    >
    >
    > Thanks
    > -Laurens
    >
    > [1] http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/page.html
    >
    >
    Andrew Fedoniouk, Aug 20, 2003
    #14
  15. Stay with Word.
    Or with TeX if you prefer to focus on coding rather then on content.

    Microsoft Word document object model is the best for printing page layout.

    Forget about page breaks in the HTML document.
    They will be useful only when something like <PAGEBODY> will appear.
    Currently they are just nothing.

    Andrew Fedoniouk.
    http://blocknote.net
    Andrew Fedoniouk, Aug 20, 2003
    #15
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