Comments on Python Redesign

Discussion in 'Python' started by Tim Parkin, Sep 7, 2003.

  1. Tim Parkin

    Tim Parkin Guest

    Terry Ready said:
    > YUCK< YUCK< YUCK.
    > <snip>
    > The pollenation site is one of the worst I have seen. The mockup page
    > has teeny type that IE will not enlarge.
    > <snip>
    > I care that the site remain physically readable and that it remain a
    > vehicle for information rather than childish egos.
    > <snip>
    > Using IE6, I need a magnifying glass
    > to read this page. This is done in the arrogant style of 'we know
    > better than you what type size you should have'. Also known as the
    > 'control the user experience' school. Awful. For me, one of the
    > worse pages I have ever seen. Anti-Pythonic.
    >
    > > interior page:

    > Only slightly better. The low contrast gray-on-gray comments page is
    > also barely readable. (Others reported the same.) For my
    > less-than-perfect 50+ year-old eyes, it is physically the WORST
    > comments page I have ever seen. It is a case study in
    > anti-accessibility design. The person responsible should not touch
    > our site.


    Perhaps the people who have commented on the site should realise it's a
    proposal and a work in progress. As constructive comments go the only
    feedback I have gathered is that the fonts are too small and the
    contrast is
    a little low. I've adjusted contrast on key elements and also increased
    the
    font size. These pages are here :

    http://pollenation.net/assets/public/python-main-2.html
    http://pollenation.net/assets/public/python-interior-2.html

    also bearing in mind that the html page will be accessible and hence
    allow
    text resizing here is a sample of +1 text size.

    http://pollenation.net/assets/public/python-main-2larger.html
    http://pollenation.net/assets/public/python-interior-2larger.html

    Also, Terry, the design was an 'image', a 'mockup', a 'png' to be
    specific,
    it did not dictate font size. As far as accessibility is concerned, the
    only
    problem was the contrast and the font size both of which I've changed as
    I
    agree they were too low and too small respectively.

    Although I agree that the font size should be bigger, the current site
    is
    not an exemplar of accessibility. The following example taken from the
    interior page I have shown.The first is in comparison with my original
    design, the second show a comparison with the amendments showing normal
    and
    +1 font sizing. (the text on my samples may benefit from increasing the
    line
    height using css)

    http://pollenation.net/assets/public/python-text-comparison-new.gif
    http://pollenation.net/assets/public/python-text-comparison.gif

    As a side note, I haven't been to any school of 'control the user
    experience'. Furthermore I think making comments such as accusing me of
    having a 'childish ego' and being 'arrogant' are IMO extremely
    disrespectful
    and I would appreciate an apology. I am quite hurt and dissapointed to
    see
    such coments on what I had considered a respectable forum for discussion
    although I'm sure they are not representative.

    Tim Parkin

    Terry:
    > I otherwise do not have too much concern about particulars and

    therefore
    > not much to contribute.
    Tim Parkin, Sep 7, 2003
    #1
    1. Advertising

  2. "Tim Parkin" <> wrote in message
    news:...

    [...snip...]
    > Perhaps the people who have commented on the site should realise it's a
    > proposal and a work in progress. As constructive comments go the only
    > feedback I have gathered is that the fonts are too small and the
    > contrast is
    > a little low. I've adjusted contrast on key elements and also increased
    > the
    > font size. These pages are here :


    [...snip...]
    I agree that the python.org site could use a face-lift, however, my concern
    with the design presented is along the lines of page size and/or browser
    compatibility. If you design via CSS using too many of the newer features
    some older browsers will have problems rendering, if you don't use CSS for
    that layout then you'll be using too many graphics. You should keep in mind
    the fact that Python is used internationally. So bandwidth, browser
    compatibility and internationalization are all very valid concerns.

    If the redesign limits the number of people who can access it's information
    or hinders their access to the same then I would be (-1) on the effort.
    Remember, that the most popular and highly used sites, i.e. google and
    yahoo, are quite boring in a design sense but are off the chart for
    usability and accessibility. It's the content and the accessibilty to that
    content that has made them so popular. I would vote to emulate these
    attributes in any python website redesign.

    - Jeff
    Jeff Hinrichs, Sep 7, 2003
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. Tim Parkin

    Peter Hansen Guest

    Tim Parkin wrote:
    >
    > As a side note, I haven't been to any school of 'control the user
    > experience'. Furthermore I think making comments such as accusing me of
    > having a 'childish ego' and being 'arrogant' are IMO extremely
    > disrespectful and I would appreciate an apology. I am quite hurt and
    > dissapointed to see such coments on what I had considered a respectable
    > forum for discussion although I'm sure they are not representative.


    On behalf of those with the nasty fingers today, I apologize. Tim,
    they must have missed the relatively clear warnings that these
    are *mockups*, and posted for discussion purposes. I agree also
    that harsh public criticism without constructive comments is
    wholly unwarranted, and out of order around here, not to mention
    (thankfully) rather atypical.

    Heck, I *have* read several books on horrible web page design, and
    have a background that includes a fair bit of typography and related
    study and work, and I didn't think the pages were bad. I'm a
    little stunned by the hyperbolic comments.

    Maybe the pages aren't felt to be appropriate for *Python*'s web
    site, or maybe on certain screens the colours or sizes don't look
    quite right, but at least somebody is trying something(*), and
    I hope you'll be able to rise above the negativism and stick it out
    long enough to find any comments which truly merit consideration.

    -Peter

    (*) Personally, I never thought the existing site was a big problem,
    but then I just view the web as a simple way to search for text
    and I still use Netscape 4.7 much of the time, so I'm obviously not
    the target for these improvements...
    Peter Hansen, Sep 7, 2003
    #3
  4. "Tim Parkin" <> wrote previously:
    |text resizing here is a sample of +1 text size.
    |http://pollenation.net/assets/public/python-main-2larger.html
    |http://pollenation.net/assets/public/python-interior-2larger.html

    Yeah... this moves it from truly awful to merely bad. So that's a good
    step. Even so, the lines of text are squashed together vertically in an
    awkward way that makes reading difficult. I don't even really know how
    that effect was achieved (or in what browser)... is there a CSS
    attribute for "really small vertical spacing"?

    In my experience, good pages remain good even in the complete absence of
    their CSS stylesheet. Well, and CERTAINLY good pages do not embed
    ad-hoc <font> tags all over them, but I don't think the redesign demo
    did that. While I'm only guessing, this is a page that would fare
    poorly with the CSS dropped, and with user-specified fonts and colors
    specfied.

    The problem is that it is WAY over-designed. It looks like something
    you'd design for a magazine, not for the web, with many browsers
    possible. Parkins, or whoever, has a certain browser and screen size,
    and probably took out a ruler to align everything properly on that
    unique combination. But on my screen, there is a gaping wasted space on
    the right edge. Why not put the "news and announcements" over on the
    right edge, using as much space as is available, instead of squashing
    things into fixed sized boxes? "Features" could then flexibly fill the
    middle section, scrolling down as far as is needed for the window size
    and font of a reader.

    That said, I -DO- like the look of the left navigation buttons. They
    could use more contrast still, but the light 3-D effect is good, and the
    subsections below an "opened" button is visually clear. The roundish,
    almost OpenLook-like, pane/box frames are fine. I kinda like the
    fingerprint icon, or whatever that is meant to be (two snakes?). And
    having a search tool at top seems useful. It's just hard to get past
    the font disaster (and the goofy, oversized, photos).

    Yours, Lulu...

    --
    mertz@ | The specter of free information is haunting the `Net! All the
    gnosis | powers of IP- and crypto-tyranny have entered into an unholy
    ..cx | alliance...ideas have nothing to lose but their chains. Unite
    | against "intellectual property" and anti-privacy regimes!
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters, Sep 7, 2003
    #4
  5. Tim Parkin

    Terry Reedy Guest

    To the extent that my comments were misdirected and/or unwarrented, I
    retract and/or apologize.

    I did not notice that the demo fromt page is merely a dead image. I
    was mislead by the word 'mock-up'. To me, a mock-up page would have
    real html, even if filled with dummy text and stub links. While a
    mock-up airplane does not fly , it is a real 3-d object, not an image.
    In any case, the page looks enough like many live pages I have visited
    (usually corporation front pages) that I was fooled.

    The comments page *is* live, not an image. It was also unusually
    painful and difficult for me to read.

    I usually don't care too much what people do with their pages. If I
    can't read it, I move on to one of the millions of others vying for my
    attention. However, python.org is one I visit a lot (top 5, surely)
    and I really care about being able to continue reading it.

    Perhaps Python needs two front pages or even two sites. One for the
    IT manager types that you seem to be aiming at, who would be impressed
    by the corporate look that tends to depress me, and one for
    programmers just looking for info. The current site, perhaps with
    more tweeks, is pretty good for the latter but not, I would agree, for
    the former.

    Terry J. Reedy
    Terry Reedy, Sep 7, 2003
    #5
  6. Tim Parkin wrote:

    > Perhaps the people who have commented on the site should realise it's a
    > proposal and a work in progress. As constructive comments go the only
    > feedback I have gathered is that the fonts are too small and the
    > contrast is
    > a little low. I've adjusted contrast on key elements and also increased
    > the
    > font size. These pages are here :
    >
    > http://pollenation.net/assets/public/python-main-2.html
    > http://pollenation.net/assets/public/python-interior-2.html


    A few suggestions:

    - several (including myself) were thrown off-course by the fact that the posted
    'site' was really just a screenshot, not really a live mockup (the word mockup
    tends to be used for junk-filled, but otherwise structurally valid sites rather
    than a graphical screenshot). I suggest you make an actual html mockup so that
    everyone can actually test how fonts scale in their own browsers. Viewing
    _any_ screenshot in my laptop's 1600x1200 screen is painful, because the fonts
    are microscopic. But a real html (even if the text it's filled with is junk),
    I can judge: I have my font sizes set in mozilla for readability, and it will
    be immediately obvious whether there are layout assumptions in the site which
    break at these resolutions.

    I am sure you'll get far better feedback with such a mockup site being
    accessible for the community to view.

    - I'm not sure I fall for the double-colored 'python' word. The two tones
    generate a mental split 'py-thon', which is, at least to me, rather unpleasant.
    Keep in mind that many things in the python community have a py pre/post-pended
    which would be more reasonable to break: pyexpect, scipy, numpy,... In all
    those cases, the separated 'py' tends to associate the 'python' part with the
    rest (expect, scientific computing, numerical work, etc).

    But 'thon' is nothing by itself, so the split is useless, and creates an
    artificial an unnecessary disruption in the reading flow. It feels like a
    clear case of graphical glitz done for its own sake, not at the service of
    function.

    Ant that is the ONE principle that the site should respect: ANY graphical
    enhancement should always serve, never sacrifice, function.

    - Contrast: even the newer screenshots feel very low contrast. Blue on grey
    isn't particularly readable. But perhaps when I view the real html with normal
    font sizes, it will look better. That's why you really need to post a readable
    html site, not a png: it's almost impossible for anyone but you to properly
    judge the site with graphical screenshots.


    - More content: why limit the front page to have so little in it? It feels
    like it was designed to fit 100% into an 800x600 window. I personally feel
    that a techincal website is ok with having the front page include some more
    stuff further down. I can use my scroll wheel to go down, but I hate having to
    click for separate pages for everything. I know it's a fine line, and you
    don't want the main page to be overly long, but I feel that the current mockup
    is unnecessarily short.


    And if you feel like people are being overly harsh, don't worry. It's usenet
    after all :) But also keep in mind that you're proposing touching the _main_
    python.org website, so don't expect the entire community just to go with
    whatever you propose. In case you are new to this environment, go read some of
    the discussions on PEP-308 for a feel of how hot things can get when you want
    to touch core things.

    In the end, this is actually a good thing: it means that any idea which finally
    survives the beating will be pretty good. Think of a very harsh, very
    darwinian selection system :)

    Best regards, and good luck with the work.

    Fernando.
    Fernando Perez, Sep 7, 2003
    #6
  7. Tim Parkin

    Aahz Guest

    In article <>,
    Terry Reedy <> wrote:
    >
    >Perhaps Python needs two front pages or even two sites. One for the
    >IT manager types that you seem to be aiming at, who would be impressed
    >by the corporate look that tends to depress me, and one for
    >programmers just looking for info. The current site, perhaps with
    >more tweeks, is pretty good for the latter but not, I would agree, for
    >the former.


    I'm leaning toward vetoing any such plan. One problem with the Perl
    community is that it's not clear which web site to use for different
    purposes -- I think we should keep www.python.org as the universal URL.

    That said, there likely will be a subsection of python.org that is aimed
    at managers, with a more designed look and more graphics; someone trying
    to convince a specific manager could point zir into the subsection.
    --
    Aahz () <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/

    This is Python. We don't care much about theory, except where it intersects
    with useful practice. --Aahz
    Aahz, Sep 7, 2003
    #7
  8. Lots of people have been rightly jumping all over the design. But
    there's something else that I think is very important in the current
    python.org front page and missing from the proposed redesign: the text
    "Welcome to the official website for the Python language."

    If one looks at the proposed redesign, it is difficult to tell whether
    Python is an application, a magazine, a business consulting partnership,
    or what. It is also unclear whether the site is run by the same people
    responsible for Python, whatever Python is. Certainly "official web
    site for programming language" is not the first thing that springs to
    mind.

    --
    David Eppstein http://www.ics.uci.edu/~eppstein/
    Univ. of California, Irvine, School of Information & Computer Science
    David Eppstein, Sep 7, 2003
    #8
  9. Tim Parkin

    Aahz Guest

    In article <bjfvnh$mkb$>,
    Fernando Perez <> wrote:
    >
    >And if you feel like people are being overly harsh, don't worry. It's
    >usenet after all :)


    Well, no, it's not Usenet, not in the sense you mean. Someone dragged a
    discussion from a mailing list here, and I think that beating Tim up in
    public is unfair. We haven't even completely settled on a set of design
    goals yet; Tim's mockup was strictly intended to help advance the
    discussion.

    I'll repeat what I said, if you want to be involved with the redesign
    effort, join http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pydotorg-redesign
    --
    Aahz () <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/

    This is Python. We don't care much about theory, except where it intersects
    with useful practice. --Aahz
    Aahz, Sep 7, 2003
    #9
  10. Aahz wrote:

    > In article <bjfvnh$mkb$>,
    > Fernando Perez <> wrote:
    >>
    >>And if you feel like people are being overly harsh, don't worry. It's
    >>usenet after all :)

    >
    > Well, no, it's not Usenet, not in the sense you mean. Someone dragged a
    > discussion from a mailing list here, and I think that beating Tim up in
    > public is unfair.


    FWIW, I made a point of NOT beating anyone up, and tried to offer specific, IMHO
    constructive comments.

    And since the starting thread of the discussion was a post by Tim himself, that
    seemed a perfectly fair thing to do. It may have been dragged here from
    elsewhere, but the first 'Comments ...' post was by Tim, and he's been
    responding in the discussion actively. As long as the comments were civil
    (which I actively tried to do, after seeing some of the tone of the discussion
    elsewhere), I didn't see any problem there.

    Cheers,

    f
    Fernando Perez, Sep 7, 2003
    #10
  11. Tim Parkin wrote:

    > Perhaps the people who have commented on the site should realise it's
    > a
    > proposal and a work in progress.


    Could someone remind me what need there is for a redesign in the first
    place? Of all the Python-related efforts that one could put time into,
    this seems like one of the least useful.

    --
    Erik Max Francis && && http://www.alcyone.com/max/
    __ San Jose, CA, USA && 37 20 N 121 53 W && &tSftDotIotE
    / \ Then you give me that Judas Kiss / Could you hurt me more than this
    \__/ Lamya
    Erik Max Francis, Sep 7, 2003
    #11
  12. Tim Parkin

    Aahz Guest

    In article <>,
    David Eppstein <> wrote:
    >
    >Lots of people have been rightly jumping all over the design. But
    >there's something else that I think is very important in the current
    >python.org front page and missing from the proposed redesign: the text
    >"Welcome to the official website for the Python language."


    Don't worry -- some people think that's redundant, but Guido has
    Prounounced that it will stay.
    --
    Aahz () <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/

    This is Python. We don't care much about theory, except where it intersects
    with useful practice. --Aahz
    Aahz, Sep 7, 2003
    #12
  13. On Sun, 07 Sep 2003 12:51:45 -0700,
    Erik Max Francis <> wrote:
    > Could someone remind me what need there is for a redesign in the first
    > place? Of all the Python-related efforts that one could put time into,


    Because the current site is unattractive, jumbled, hard to navigate, and
    sucks dead bunnies through a straw?

    --amk
    A.M. Kuchling, Sep 7, 2003
    #13
  14. Tim Parkin

    Aahz Guest

    In article <>,
    Erik Max Francis <> wrote:
    >
    >Could someone remind me what need there is for a redesign in the first
    >place? Of all the Python-related efforts that one could put time into,
    >this seems like one of the least useful.


    AMK's comment is a bit overdone, so here's something more understated:

    The current website has a number of navigation, structural, and content
    flaws resulting from the fact that it has grown organically for roughly
    a decade. It is also harder to maintain than we'd prefer. Finally, it
    looks a bit dated.

    While we are making some progress at removing cruft, most of us involved
    in the work agree that a full-scale redesign would be a Good Idea.

    Part of the impetus for doing the work is to streamline the site to make
    it easier for Python newcomers (and people investigating Python for
    themselves or their organizations) to find the information they want or
    need.
    --
    Aahz () <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/

    This is Python. We don't care much about theory, except where it intersects
    with useful practice. --Aahz
    Aahz, Sep 7, 2003
    #14
  15. Tim Parkin

    Dave Kuhlman Guest

    David Eppstein wrote:

    > Lots of people have been rightly jumping all over the design. But
    > there's something else that I think is very important in the
    > current python.org front page and missing from the proposed
    > redesign: the text "Welcome to the official website for the Python
    > language."
    >
    > If one looks at the proposed redesign, it is difficult to tell
    > whether Python is an application, a magazine, a business
    > consulting partnership,
    > or what. It is also unclear whether the site is run by the same
    > people
    > responsible for Python, whatever Python is. Certainly "official
    > web site for programming language" is not the first thing that
    > springs to mind.


    Actually, from its appearance, the new design looks like it is
    trying to sell me something. "Advert filters up!" It makes me
    suspicious, skeptical, and cynical, as all advertising does.

    I don't mean to criticize the work that's being done for the new
    site. It looks like excellent work. I do mean to suggest that
    perhaps its style is not what I want for the "official Python
    site", and, in particular, not for the first/main page.

    The new design looks great. It looks exceptionally well done.
    But, instead of the official Python Web site, it would be better
    suited for "The Python Advisory Board" or for "The Friends of
    Python" or for whatever organization has the mission of promoting
    and lobbying for Python.

    Maybe if the new main page (python-main-2.html) were at the end of
    a link labelled "Python advocacy" ...

    And Petter Hansen wrote in a separate message:

    > (*) Personally, I never thought the existing site was a big

    problem,
    > but then I just view the web as a simple way to search for text
    > and I still use Netscape 4.7 much of the time, so I'm obviously

    not
    > the target for these improvements...


    I think I'm in this school. I go to the Web in general and to the
    Python site in particular for content, not for graphics. I think
    the new design is pretty and very attractive, perhaps *too* pretty
    and attractive. When I send or refer someone to a site like that,
    I'd feel I'd have to warn them: "It looks like promotional
    material, but don't be put off; there is really good content there
    if you look for it.

    I suppose you could brush me off as old fashioned and "old
    school". I certainly am. I like text and content not graphics,
    colors, and visual appeal. But, then I'd argue that text and
    cognitive content are what's appropriate for the official Python
    site.

    The current main page at www.python.org is a portal and a
    directory. It helps me find things that are related to Python,
    things that help me with Python, things that I feel will help
    others to use Python. That's why in much of the Python
    documentation I write, the current www.python.org is a "must
    reference". I would not feel the same about a site that contains
    endorsements from famous people, even nerdy famous people that I
    admire.

    I would like to request that the new site, whatever its style,
    give me as much help as possible finding what I need in order to
    use Python. I'd want the site designer to look at every piece of
    that page and ask: Will this help someone find what they need
    about Python?

    This new design looks great to me. But, it is not the official
    Python Web site. It is the site for some company trying to sell
    Python services or Python tools or something.

    Look at the Google directory page (http://www.google.com/dirhp).
    (It's actually built on the ODP: Open Directory Project, dmoz.org).
    You'll see maximum nutrition and minimum calories. It's very
    plain, and very popular. People know it will help them find what
    they want, and they trust it, at least I do.

    On the other hand, having several pages that show the kind of
    graphical interface that can be constructed with wxPython, pygtk,
    etc seems like a good idea to me.

    Hope I haven't been uncivil. I apologize in advance, if I seem to
    have been. And, thanks much for the work that the new site
    designers have done.

    Dave

    --
    Dave Kuhlman
    http://www.rexx.com/~dkuhlman
    Dave Kuhlman, Sep 7, 2003
    #15
  16. Aahz wrote:

    > The current website has a number of navigation, structural, and
    > content
    > flaws resulting from the fact that it has grown organically for
    > roughly
    > a decade. It is also harder to maintain than we'd prefer. Finally,
    > it
    > looks a bit dated.


    That sounds like what's warranted is a reorganization, not necessarily a
    redesign.

    --
    Erik Max Francis && && http://www.alcyone.com/max/
    __ San Jose, CA, USA && 37 20 N 121 53 W && &tSftDotIotE
    / \ I'm not worried about anything. I'm not fearing any man.
    \__/ Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. (the evening before his assassination)
    Erik Max Francis, Sep 7, 2003
    #16
  17. Tim Parkin

    John J. Lee Guest

    (Aahz) writes:

    > In article <>,
    > Erik Max Francis <> wrote:
    > >
    > >Could someone remind me what need there is for a redesign in the first
    > >place? Of all the Python-related efforts that one could put time into,
    > >this seems like one of the least useful.

    >
    > AMK's comment is a bit overdone, so here's something more understated:

    [snip]

    Whatever. Just don't get rid of all those cute skewed Python logos in
    all the different typefaces. All sensible people will agree that
    that's clearly the most important aspect of the site ;-)


    John
    John J. Lee, Sep 7, 2003
    #17
  18. Tim Parkin

    John J. Lee Guest

    Peter Hansen <> writes:

    > Tim Parkin wrote:
    > >
    > > As a side note, I haven't been to any school of 'control the user
    > > experience'. Furthermore I think making comments such as accusing me of
    > > having a 'childish ego' and being 'arrogant' are IMO extremely
    > > disrespectful and I would appreciate an apology. I am quite hurt and
    > > dissapointed to see such coments on what I had considered a respectable
    > > forum for discussion although I'm sure they are not representative.

    >
    > On behalf of those with the nasty fingers today, I apologize. Tim,
    > they must have missed the relatively clear warnings that these
    > are *mockups*, and posted for discussion purposes. I agree also
    > that harsh public criticism without constructive comments is
    > wholly unwarranted, and out of order around here, not to mention
    > (thankfully) rather atypical.

    [...]

    Me too. Haven't followed the discussion closely or looked at the
    mockup, but some of the responses looked way over the top.

    I hope this doesn't stop you continuing with your efforts, Tim. Some
    people here do appreciate the work you're putting in.


    John
    John J. Lee, Sep 7, 2003
    #18
  19. Tim Parkin

    Aahz Guest

    In article <>, John J. Lee <> wrote:
    >
    >Whatever. Just don't get rid of all those cute skewed Python logos in
    >all the different typefaces. All sensible people will agree that
    >that's clearly the most important aspect of the site ;-)


    Although the decision isn't final, that's actually one of the prime
    targets. Sorry.
    --
    Aahz () <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/

    This is Python. We don't care much about theory, except where it intersects
    with useful practice. --Aahz
    Aahz, Sep 8, 2003
    #19
  20. On Sun, 07 Sep 2003 14:12:08 -0700, Dave Kuhlman <> wrote:

    >David Eppstein wrote:
    >

    [...]

    [...]

    Thanks, both, for saving me a bunch of typing ;-)

    It looks slick, but not really technically slick in a way
    that would lead me to expectations about Python, just
    eye-candy/we-spend-more-on-advertising-than-research
    kind of slick (though for largely irrelevant photos, I
    prefer pretty things and/or great photography ;-)

    So, yeah, ad-shields-up was my reaction too, sorry. A prominent
    notice like "this site prepared and served with free Python-scripted
    software" might alter the impact and create some Python-linkage from
    the appearance. (Of course it would have to be true, otherwise what's
    being sold? Photoshop? ;-)

    My frame of mind going to python.org is pleasant anticipation
    like walking into an engineering library or technical reading room
    I'm familiar with. By all means put notices there to direct
    people to events and places of interest, but don't put on a facade
    that makes my library feel like a commercial lobby ;-)

    Let those be separate buildings. Too bad python.com is apparently, um, taken.

    My 2 cents..
    Maybe I'd get used to it, but that is my first reaction. Nice work, really,
    but not for my old technical library building ;-)

    Regards,
    Bengt Richter
    Bengt Richter, Sep 8, 2003
    #20
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