Could a single web framework popularize Python?

[ted]

I'm just staring out with Python and it looks great.

But I'm wondering why there isn't a dominant web framework besides Zope?

I think if Python had something along the lines of a Jakarta Tomcat that was
actively developed, it would help popularize Python.

Any thoughts.

-Ted

 

[Dave Benjamin]

I'm just staring out with Python and it looks great.

Good to hear. =)

But I'm wondering why there isn't a dominant web framework besides Zope?

Well, mostly because there are so many available web frameworks for
Python that nobody can agree on which one is best. Zope and Webware seem
to be the most popular. Then, there's Twisted, which is (I'd say) the
dominant/most popular general-purpose networking framework for Python.

I think if Python had something along the lines of a Jakarta Tomcat that was
actively developed, it would help popularize Python.

I'd take mod_python over Tomcat in a heartbeat. Give me real Apache or
give me... well, another webserver besides Tomcat. =)

Peace,
Dave

 

[Dave Harrison]

Because everyone has made their own, and no one can agree on what a

dominant web framework might be. Zope *was* that framework, with
dominant mindshare, but it didn't keep other people from making other
frameworks.

There's already a ton of frameworks, but I think I saw two brand new
ones on PyPI this last week. Crazy.

hehehe.... my opinion is that development in python is fun, I doubt any
on this list would really disagree with me on that point ;-)

which ultimately means people are much more likely to say, "oh we need a
system that does X, sure, we can write that ourselves !" while chuckling
and rubbing their hands with glee at the prospect ;-)

so we end up with a huge range of tools for the same kinds of things.

vive la python !! ;-) *laughs*

 

[ted]

Here's something I found:
http://www.russellbeattie.com/notebook/20030725.html#125136

Talks about finding a good web framework. Here's an excerpt:

"So in my humble opinion, it would be great if a corporate entity - bigger
and more influential than Zope - started pushing Python a bit more.
Documentation, standards, application server reference implementations, etc.
In other words, a bit more like Java. There's got to be a middle ground
between tight corporate control and open source free-for-all. Corporate
sponsership (say by IBM or even Intel or some company of that stature) would
also give a boost to its use throughout the rest of the corporate world and
maybe give a boost to the numbers of jobs looking for Python skills. The
Python people who are happy with the status quo will probably think I'm
nuts, and that's fine. I'm writing this for the teeming hoards of Java
programmers looking around for something a bit funner (and more productive)
to use who are going to run smack into the same issues I've run into."

 

[Holger Krekel]

Because everyone has made their own, and no one can agree on what a
dominant web framework might be. Zope *was* that framework, with
dominant mindshare, but it didn't keep other people from making other
frameworks.

There's already a ton of frameworks, but I think I saw two brand new
ones on PyPI this last week. Crazy.

Maybe the current web frameworks are just not good enough? Also, there
are many different perspectives on how to do web-applications or
generate pages.

The best i hope for is factoring out common functionality into small
modules which eventually make it into the standard library. It's
not easy to get there, though. Analyzing the existing frameworks
down to the module level would be a good start, i guess.

Maybe the cost of sharing and reusing code is too high. If you e.g.
want to use a module from another project but not the whole thing
it's inconvenient and fragile to do this. Actually the Zope3-developers
tried to refactor common functionality into independent packages
(ZODB, the TAL-interpreter, security etc.) but i am not exactly sure
how well this will work out. It's still a huge thing with many pieces.

I like to think that the problem lies with the *framework* character
when i really just want a *library/module* that i can use. Frameworks
tend to impose a specific view of the world you have to adapt to. Thus
many people decide to roll their own ... often resulting in the
same problems for others. It's a vicious circle.

just my 2ec,

holger

 

[Gilles Lenfant]

Good to hear. =)


Well, mostly because there are so many available web frameworks for
Python that nobody can agree on which one is best. Zope and Webware seem
to be the most popular. Then, there's Twisted, which is (I'd say) the
dominant/most popular general-purpose networking framework for Python.

Twisted is *not* a web publishing framework. It's a low level protocol
framework, in the same family of packages as Medusa.
Or I missed something )

--Gilles

 

[Alex Martelli]

Gilles Lenfant wrote:
...

Twisted is *not* a web publishing framework. It's a low level protocol
framework, in the same family of packages as Medusa.
Or I missed something )

Twisted comprises both lower and higher levels. E.g., see
http://www.twistedmatrix.com/services/twisted-advantage
and I quote:

"""
Publish a Web Site

The twisted.web webserver is a scalable, small-footprint web server that's
easy to configure. It's efficient enough to serve a high-traffic website,
completely dynamic and reconfigureable on the fly, and simple enough to
configure that you can have it set up and running in just minutes after
you've downloaded it.
"""


Alex