detecting non java script questions

Discussion in 'HTML' started by the idiot, Mar 2, 2005.

  1. the idiot

    the idiot Guest

    so erm...
    how do i get my pages to detect if someone isnt enabling java script
    and how do i redirect them?
    do i put such a script on all my pages (redirecting them to the same start
    point)....?

    (once i have the script in my code) will people who do have java script
    enabled be able to see the non java script pages - hopefully the answer
    will be no... but if they can how can i stop them?

    crikey
    i hope that all made sense

    and thank you again (in advance) good people
     
    the idiot, Mar 2, 2005
    #1
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  2. the idiot

    the idiot Guest

    "the idiot" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > so erm...
    > how do i get my pages to detect if someone isnt enabling java script
    > and how do i redirect them?
    > do i put such a script on all my pages (redirecting them to the same start
    > point)....?
    >
    > (once i have the script in my code) will people who do have java script
    > enabled be able to see the non java script pages - hopefully the answer
    > will be no... but if they can how can i stop them?
    >
    > crikey
    > i hope that all made sense
    >
    > and thank you again (in advance) good people
    >
    >
    >

    crumbs, the more i read about it this prob the more complicated and
    confusing it becomes...
     
    the idiot, Mar 2, 2005
    #2
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  3. the idiot

    Steve Pugh Guest

    "the idiot" <> wrote:

    >how do i get my pages to detect if someone isnt enabling java script
    >and how do i redirect them?


    <noscript>
    <a href="nojs.html">Standard site without JavaScript functionality</a>
    </noscript>

    The better approach is to make the non-JS version the default and, if
    you can't incorporate the JS features into that as enhancements, use
    JS to redeirect to the JS version.

    >do i put such a script on all my pages (redirecting them to the same start
    >point)....?


    Will your pages be indexed by search engines? If so then the user may
    arrive at any page. If that page is unusable because you've decided to
    rely upon an optional technology then you had better provide a way for
    the user to get somewhere useful or they will just hit the back button
    and leave.

    >(once i have the script in my code) will people who do have java script
    >enabled be able to see the non java script pages


    Yes. If they view the source, they'll see the link and be able to cut
    and paste it into their browser. Or the search engines may link to the
    non-js version, after all the search engines don't do JS either so
    they'll be following the links to the JS pages in your <noscript>
    sections.

    > - hopefully the answer
    >will be no... but if they can how can i stop them?


    Why sould you want to? If you're offering two versions of your site
    then people who can use either should be free to use either.

    Or you could make your site work for all users and then use JS to add
    extra goodies on top.

    Steve

    --
    "My theories appal you, my heresies outrage you,
    I never answer letters and you don't like my tie." - The Doctor

    Steve Pugh <> <http://steve.pugh.net/>
     
    Steve Pugh, Mar 2, 2005
    #3
  4. the idiot

    the idiot Guest

    "Steve Pugh" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > "the idiot" <> wrote:
    >
    > >how do i get my pages to detect if someone isnt enabling java script
    > >and how do i redirect them?

    >
    > <noscript>
    > <a href="nojs.html">Standard site without JavaScript functionality</a>
    > </noscript>
    >
    > The better approach is to make the non-JS version the default and, if
    > you can't incorporate the JS features into that as enhancements, use
    > JS to redeirect to the JS version.
    >
    > >do i put such a script on all my pages (redirecting them to the same

    start
    > >point)....?

    >
    > Will your pages be indexed by search engines? If so then the user may
    > arrive at any page. If that page is unusable because you've decided to
    > rely upon an optional technology then you had better provide a way for
    > the user to get somewhere useful or they will just hit the back button
    > and leave.
    >
    > >(once i have the script in my code) will people who do have java script
    > >enabled be able to see the non java script pages

    >
    > Yes. If they view the source, they'll see the link and be able to cut
    > and paste it into their browser. Or the search engines may link to the
    > non-js version, after all the search engines don't do JS either so
    > they'll be following the links to the JS pages in your <noscript>
    > sections.
    >
    > > - hopefully the answer
    > >will be no... but if they can how can i stop them?

    >
    > Why sould you want to? If you're offering two versions of your site
    > then people who can use either should be free to use either.
    >
    > Or you could make your site work for all users and then use JS to add
    > extra goodies on top.
    >
    > Steve


    damn i knew that would be the answer... and it took me ages to figure out
    how to use the dhtml menu maker as well. oh what a life. anyway....i will
    reflect. and leave you all alone for a while. cheers again steve.
    kev
     
    the idiot, Mar 2, 2005
    #4
  5. the idiot

    Andy Dingley Guest

    It was somewhere outside Barstow when "the idiot"
    <> wrote:

    >how do i get my pages to detect if someone isnt enabling java script
    >and how do i redirect them?


    You don't. Redirection is a real pain to do, because it also implies
    maintaining two versions of the site; with and without.

    A better way is to make a single page do everything you need. If
    you're going to support the "limited" users, then you need to build a
    usable and accessible non-JS version. Once you've done this, why not
    use it for everyone ? A similar argument applies to the
    non-accessible and accessible versions of websites.

    Sprinkle JS across it as you wish, but not in any way that breaks
    things. It's generally quite easy to makeJS goodies that auto-install
    or auto-enable if there _is_ support for them, certainly easier than
    trying to switch them off when they're not working (and the toolbox
    has just locked itself shut).
     
    Andy Dingley, Mar 2, 2005
    #5
  6. the idiot

    the idiot Guest

    "Andy Dingley" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > It was somewhere outside Barstow when "the idiot"
    > <> wrote:
    >
    > >how do i get my pages to detect if someone isnt enabling java script
    > >and how do i redirect them?

    >
    > You don't. Redirection is a real pain to do, because it also implies
    > maintaining two versions of the site; with and without.
    >
    > A better way is to make a single page do everything you need. If
    > you're going to support the "limited" users, then you need to build a
    > usable and accessible non-JS version. Once you've done this, why not
    > use it for everyone ? A similar argument applies to the
    > non-accessible and accessible versions of websites.
    >
    > Sprinkle JS across it as you wish, but not in any way that breaks
    > things. It's generally quite easy to makeJS goodies that auto-install
    > or auto-enable if there _is_ support for them, certainly easier than
    > trying to switch them off when they're not working (and the toolbox
    > has just locked itself shut).


    i know i know i know but my dhtml menu looks so much nicer than mere word
    links hehe ho hum. either i go back and redesign the whole site or i pretend
    that the 10%(?) who have js turned off dont exist... (i know which i prefer)
    why do they do it anyway, are they mad?
     
    the idiot, Mar 2, 2005
    #6
  7. the idiot

    Toby Inkster Guest

    the idiot wrote:

    > i know i know i know but my dhtml menu looks so much nicer than mere word
    > links hehe ho hum. either i go back and redesign the whole site or i pretend
    > that the 10%(?) who have js turned off dont exist... (i know which i prefer)


    It is perfectly easy to build a flashy Javascript menu that still works
    when Javascript is disabled.

    http://www.htmldog.com/articles/suckerfish/dropdowns/example/
    http://examples.tobyinkster.co.uk/menu/menu2

    > why do they do it anyway, are they mad?


    Many don't have the choice -- it is disabled by company policy. Some
    choose to disable Javascript for security or privacy reasons. Others to
    avoid popups and other annoying effects.

    --
    Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS
    Contact Me ~ http://tobyinkster.co.uk/contact
     
    Toby Inkster, Mar 2, 2005
    #7
  8. the idiot

    the idiot Guest

    "Toby Inkster" <> wrote in message
    news:p...
    > the idiot wrote:
    >
    > > i know i know i know but my dhtml menu looks so much nicer than mere

    word
    > > links hehe ho hum. either i go back and redesign the whole site or i

    pretend
    > > that the 10%(?) who have js turned off dont exist... (i know which i

    prefer)
    >
    > It is perfectly easy to build a flashy Javascript menu that still works
    > when Javascript is disabled.
    >
    > http://www.htmldog.com/articles/suckerfish/dropdowns/example/
    > http://examples.tobyinkster.co.uk/menu/menu2
    >
    > > why do they do it anyway, are they mad?

    >
    > Many don't have the choice -- it is disabled by company policy. Some
    > choose to disable Javascript for security or privacy reasons. Others to
    > avoid popups and other annoying effects.
    >

    all were talking about here is a simple dhtml menu... i thought firefox etc
    had pop up blockers... surely that dont stop folk seein my little menu...
    and anyway if they are at work they shouldnt be looking at websites anyway -
    they should be working very very hard.
     
    the idiot, Mar 2, 2005
    #8
  9. the idiot

    Andy Dingley Guest

    It was somewhere outside Barstow when "the idiot"
    <> wrote:

    >all were talking about here is a simple dhtml menu...


    So ask Richard to design your site :cool:

    >i thought firefox etc
    >had pop up blockers...


    It's not Firefox or popups that are the problem, it's IE and Sir
    Bill's knighthood for services to the virus industry.

    >surely that dont stop folk seein my little menu...


    Try browsing the site on your phone. And these days you should start
    to care about this stuff.
     
    Andy Dingley, Mar 3, 2005
    #9
  10. the idiot

    tm Guest

    "the idiot" <> wrote:
    > "Andy Dingley" <> wrote


    > > Sprinkle JS across it as you wish, but not in any way that breaks
    > > things.

    >
    > i know i know i know but my dhtml menu looks so much nicer than mere word
    > links hehe ho hum. either i go back and redesign the whole site or i pretend
    > that the 10%(?) who have js turned off dont exist... (i know which i prefer)
    > why do they do it anyway, are they mad?


    People without JS are used to pages not working. They look for the
    alternative menu. You should add a text menu, maybe at the bottom-
    [About][Documentaries][Interviews][Weblog]
     
    tm, Mar 3, 2005
    #10
  11. the idiot

    the idiot Guest

    "Andy Dingley" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > It was somewhere outside Barstow when "the idiot"
    > <> wrote:
    >
    > >all were talking about here is a simple dhtml menu...

    >
    > So ask Richard to design your site :cool:
    >
    > >i thought firefox etc
    > >had pop up blockers...

    >
    > It's not Firefox or popups that are the problem, it's IE and Sir
    > Bill's knighthood for services to the virus industry.
    >
    > >surely that dont stop folk seein my little menu...

    >
    > Try browsing the site on your phone. And these days you should start
    > to care about this stuff.


    ive never had a mobile phone.
     
    the idiot, Mar 3, 2005
    #11
  12. the idiot

    the idiot Guest

    "tm" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > "the idiot" <> wrote:
    > > "Andy Dingley" <> wrote

    >
    > > > Sprinkle JS across it as you wish, but not in any way that breaks
    > > > things.

    > >
    > > i know i know i know but my dhtml menu looks so much nicer than mere

    word
    > > links hehe ho hum. either i go back and redesign the whole site or i

    pretend
    > > that the 10%(?) who have js turned off dont exist... (i know which i

    prefer)
    > > why do they do it anyway, are they mad?

    >
    > People without JS are used to pages not working. They look for the
    > alternative menu. You should add a text menu, maybe at the bottom-
    > [About][Documentaries][Interviews][Weblog]



    yeah i know... and i will
     
    the idiot, Mar 3, 2005
    #12
  13. the idiot

    Toby Inkster Guest

    the idiot wrote:

    > all were talking about here is a simple dhtml menu... i thought firefox etc
    > had pop up blockers... surely that dont stop folk seein my little menu...


    Yes, but there are still (*shock*! *horror*!) people using browsers that
    don't block popups (popular pop-up blocking browsers are Opera, Mozilla,
    Firefox and Windows XP SP2's IE6).

    Some of those people will switch off Javascript to avoid popups.

    Even in browsers with pop-up blocking, some people will switch off
    Javascript because they find the majority of Javascript they encounter on
    a daily basis to be annoying. (Scrolling marquees -- if the text is that
    important, then why don't you leave it motionless so that I can READ IT!
    Javascript rollovers -- wasting my time to make me download twice as many
    images. And so forth.)

    Other people will have Javascript disabled for security reasons.
    http://msgs.securepoint.com/cgi/AT-sp-search?db=bugtraq&search=Javascript

    Other people may have accidentally disabled Javascript and don't know how
    to switch it back on.

    And others will simply be using browsers that simply do not support it.

    --
    Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS
    Contact Me ~ http://tobyinkster.co.uk/contact
     
    Toby Inkster, Mar 3, 2005
    #13
  14. the idiot

    the idiot Guest

    "Toby Inkster" <> wrote in message
    news:p...
    > the idiot wrote:
    >
    > > all were talking about here is a simple dhtml menu... i thought firefox

    etc
    > > had pop up blockers... surely that dont stop folk seein my little

    menu...
    >
    > Yes, but there are still (*shock*! *horror*!) people using browsers that
    > don't block popups (popular pop-up blocking browsers are Opera, Mozilla,
    > Firefox and Windows XP SP2's IE6).
    >
    > Some of those people will switch off Javascript to avoid popups.
    >
    > Even in browsers with pop-up blocking, some people will switch off
    > Javascript because they find the majority of Javascript they encounter on
    > a daily basis to be annoying. (Scrolling marquees -- if the text is that
    > important, then why don't you leave it motionless so that I can READ IT!
    > Javascript rollovers -- wasting my time to make me download twice as many
    > images. And so forth.)
    >
    > Other people will have Javascript disabled for security reasons.
    > http://msgs.securepoint.com/cgi/AT-sp-search?db=bugtraq&search=Javascript
    >
    > Other people may have accidentally disabled Javascript and don't know how
    > to switch it back on.
    >
    > And others will simply be using browsers that simply do not support it.
    >
    > --

    then they should get a proper computer hehe
    anyway im gonna stick word links at the bottom just so the mad can see
     
    the idiot, Mar 3, 2005
    #14
  15. the idiot

    Andy Dingley Guest

    It was somewhere outside Barstow when "the idiot"
    <> wrote:

    >> Try browsing the site on your phone. And these days you should start
    >> to care about this stuff.

    >
    >ive never had a mobile phone.


    And if you use JS-dependent site nav, then neither will any of your
    users.
     
    Andy Dingley, Mar 3, 2005
    #15
  16. the idiot

    Andy Dingley Guest

    It was somewhere outside Barstow when "the idiot"
    <> wrote:

    >then they should get a proper computer hehe


    Okay, killfiled.
     
    Andy Dingley, Mar 3, 2005
    #16
  17. the idiot

    Andy Dingley Guest

    It was somewhere outside Barstow when tm <> wrote:

    >People without JS are used to pages not working. They look for the
    >alternative menu.


    The trouble with this "alternative accessibility" approach is that it
    involves _more_ work for the site developer. Why do it twice, when
    it's so easy to do it right the first time ?

    There's also the problem that learning a good technique is something
    you do once, for all the sites you build. Duplicating things is a
    per-page, per-site task. _Much_ more work.

    >You should add a text menu, maybe at the bottom-
    >[About][Documentaries][Interviews][Weblog]


    You should possibly (probably) have such a menu, but because it's
    convenient to repeat some nav at the bottom of the page, not to work
    as an accessibility alternative.
     
    Andy Dingley, Mar 3, 2005
    #17
  18. On Wed, 02 Mar 2005 22:51:01 +0000, Toby Inkster wrote:

    > the idiot wrote:
    >
    >> i know i know i know but my dhtml menu looks so much nicer than mere word
    >> links hehe ho hum. either i go back and redesign the whole site or i pretend
    >> that the 10%(?) who have js turned off dont exist... (i know which i prefer)

    >
    > It is perfectly easy to build a flashy Javascript menu that still works
    > when Javascript is disabled.
    >
    > http://www.htmldog.com/articles/suckerfish/dropdowns/example/


    Just a couple comments for you, using Konqueror 3.2.3, I noticed that it
    isn't quite cross-compatible.

    - the <dog> htmldog.com on the bottom hangs out over the right edge of the
    border.

    - The menus don't quite work, when hover over one of them, their drop down
    list appears a couple inches higher, starting just above the top most
    border. When I move the mouse off the three main menu items, to select
    one of the sub items, the sub-menu disappears.

    When I hover over Percoidei, the screen looks something like this:

    +---------------+
    +| Remoras >|---------------------+
    || Tilefishes >| |
    || Bluefishes >| |
    || Tigerfishes >| |
    |+---------------+ |
    | |
    | |
    | >Percoidei< Anabantoidei Gobiodei |
    | |
    | Hello. You have found... |

    Hope the ASCII art is half decent. :)

    Carolyn
     
    Carolyn Marenger, Mar 3, 2005
    #18
  19. On Thu, 03 Mar 2005 08:34:04 +0000, the idiot wrote:
    >>
    >> Other people will have Javascript disabled for security reasons.
    >> http://msgs.securepoint.com/cgi/AT-sp-search?db=bugtraq&search=Javascript
    >>
    >> Other people may have accidentally disabled Javascript and don't know how
    >> to switch it back on.
    >>
    >> And others will simply be using browsers that simply do not support it.
    >>
    >> --

    > then they should get a proper computer hehe
    > anyway im gonna stick word links at the bottom just so the mad can see


    And which of my computers is not proper?

    - The dual-header AMD Athalon 900MHz that I use as my workstation.
    - The AMD Athalon 1.8GHz laptop.
    - The celeron 900MHz that I use as a server.
    - The AMD K6 350MHz that is my dedicated firewall and caching proxy server.
    - The AMD K6 400MHz that is my win98/2K print server, game box and windows
    based browser platform for testing my webpages.

    Carolyn
     
    Carolyn Marenger, Mar 3, 2005
    #19
  20. the idiot

    the idiot Guest

    "Andy Dingley" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > It was somewhere outside Barstow when "the idiot"
    > <> wrote:
    >
    > >> Try browsing the site on your phone. And these days you should start
    > >> to care about this stuff.

    > >
    > >ive never had a mobile phone.

    >
    > And if you use JS-dependent site nav, then neither will any of your
    > users.
    >

    they should get bigger phones hehe.
     
    the idiot, Mar 3, 2005
    #20
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