detecting non java script questions

[the idiot]

so erm...
how do i get my pages to detect if someone isnt enabling java script
and how do i redirect them?
do i put such a script on all my pages (redirecting them to the same start
point)....?

(once i have the script in my code) will people who do have java script
enabled be able to see the non java script pages - hopefully the answer
will be no... but if they can how can i stop them?

crikey
i hope that all made sense

and thank you again (in advance) good people

 

[the idiot]

so erm...
how do i get my pages to detect if someone isnt enabling java script
and how do i redirect them?
do i put such a script on all my pages (redirecting them to the same start
point)....?

(once i have the script in my code) will people who do have java script
enabled be able to see the non java script pages - hopefully the answer
will be no... but if they can how can i stop them?

crikey
i hope that all made sense

and thank you again (in advance) good people

crumbs, the more i read about it this prob the more complicated and
confusing it becomes...

 

[Steve Pugh]

how do i get my pages to detect if someone isnt enabling java script
and how do i redirect them?

<noscript>
<a href="nojs.html">Standard site without JavaScript functionality</a>
</noscript>

The better approach is to make the non-JS version the default and, if
you can't incorporate the JS features into that as enhancements, use
JS to redeirect to the JS version.

do i put such a script on all my pages (redirecting them to the same start
point)....?

Will your pages be indexed by search engines? If so then the user may
arrive at any page. If that page is unusable because you've decided to
rely upon an optional technology then you had better provide a way for
the user to get somewhere useful or they will just hit the back button
and leave.

(once i have the script in my code) will people who do have java script
enabled be able to see the non java script pages

Yes. If they view the source, they'll see the link and be able to cut
and paste it into their browser. Or the search engines may link to the
non-js version, after all the search engines don't do JS either so

- hopefully the answer
will be no... but if they can how can i stop them?

Why sould you want to? If you're offering two versions of your site
then people who can use either should be free to use either.

Or you could make your site work for all users and then use JS to add
extra goodies on top.

Steve

 

[the idiot]

<noscript>
<a href="nojs.html">Standard site without JavaScript functionality</a>
</noscript>

The better approach is to make the non-JS version the default and, if
you can't incorporate the JS features into that as enhancements, use
JS to redeirect to the JS version.


Will your pages be indexed by search engines? If so then the user may
arrive at any page. If that page is unusable because you've decided to
rely upon an optional technology then you had better provide a way for
the user to get somewhere useful or they will just hit the back button
and leave.


Yes. If they view the source, they'll see the link and be able to cut
and paste it into their browser. Or the search engines may link to the
non-js version, after all the search engines don't do JS either so


Why sould you want to? If you're offering two versions of your site
then people who can use either should be free to use either.

Or you could make your site work for all users and then use JS to add
extra goodies on top.

Steve

damn i knew that would be the answer... and it took me ages to figure out
how to use the dhtml menu maker as well. oh what a life. anyway....i will
reflect. and leave you all alone for a while. cheers again steve.
kev

 

[Andy Dingley]

It was somewhere outside Barstow when "the idiot"

how do i get my pages to detect if someone isnt enabling java script
and how do i redirect them?

You don't. Redirection is a real pain to do, because it also implies
maintaining two versions of the site; with and without.

A better way is to make a single page do everything you need. If
you're going to support the "limited" users, then you need to build a
usable and accessible non-JS version. Once you've done this, why not
use it for everyone ? A similar argument applies to the
non-accessible and accessible versions of websites.

Sprinkle JS across it as you wish, but not in any way that breaks
things. It's generally quite easy to makeJS goodies that auto-install
or auto-enable if there _is_ support for them, certainly easier than
trying to switch them off when they're not working (and the toolbox
has just locked itself shut).

 

[the idiot]

It was somewhere outside Barstow when "the idiot"


You don't. Redirection is a real pain to do, because it also implies
maintaining two versions of the site; with and without.

A better way is to make a single page do everything you need. If
you're going to support the "limited" users, then you need to build a
usable and accessible non-JS version. Once you've done this, why not
use it for everyone ? A similar argument applies to the
non-accessible and accessible versions of websites.

Sprinkle JS across it as you wish, but not in any way that breaks
things. It's generally quite easy to makeJS goodies that auto-install
or auto-enable if there _is_ support for them, certainly easier than
trying to switch them off when they're not working (and the toolbox
has just locked itself shut).

i know i know i know but my dhtml menu looks so much nicer than mere word
links hehe ho hum. either i go back and redesign the whole site or i pretend
that the 10%(?) who have js turned off dont exist... (i know which i prefer)
why do they do it anyway, are they mad?

 

[Toby Inkster]

i know i know i know but my dhtml menu looks so much nicer than mere word
links hehe ho hum. either i go back and redesign the whole site or i pretend
that the 10%(?) who have js turned off dont exist... (i know which i prefer)

It is perfectly easy to build a flashy Javascript menu that still works
when Javascript is disabled.

http://www.htmldog.com/articles/suckerfish/dropdowns/example/
http://examples.tobyinkster.co.uk/menu/menu2

why do they do it anyway, are they mad?

Many don't have the choice -- it is disabled by company policy. Some
choose to disable Javascript for security or privacy reasons. Others to
avoid popups and other annoying effects.

 

[the idiot]

prefer)

It is perfectly easy to build a flashy Javascript menu that still works
when Javascript is disabled.

http://www.htmldog.com/articles/suckerfish/dropdowns/example/
http://examples.tobyinkster.co.uk/menu/menu2


Many don't have the choice -- it is disabled by company policy. Some
choose to disable Javascript for security or privacy reasons. Others to
avoid popups and other annoying effects.

all were talking about here is a simple dhtml menu... i thought firefox etc
had pop up blockers... surely that dont stop folk seein my little menu...
and anyway if they are at work they shouldnt be looking at websites anyway -
they should be working very very hard.

 

[Andy Dingley]

It was somewhere outside Barstow when "the idiot"

all were talking about here is a simple dhtml menu...

So ask Richard to design your site

i thought firefox etc
had pop up blockers...

It's not Firefox or popups that are the problem, it's IE and Sir
Bill's knighthood for services to the virus industry.

surely that dont stop folk seein my little menu...

Try browsing the site on your phone. And these days you should start
to care about this stuff.

 

[tm]

i know i know i know but my dhtml menu looks so much nicer than mere word
links hehe ho hum. either i go back and redesign the whole site or i pretend
that the 10%(?) who have js turned off dont exist... (i know which i prefer)
why do they do it anyway, are they mad?

People without JS are used to pages not working. They look for the
alternative menu. You should add a text menu, maybe at the bottom-
[About][Documentaries][Interviews][Weblog]

 

[the idiot]

It was somewhere outside Barstow when "the idiot"


So ask Richard to design your site


It's not Firefox or popups that are the problem, it's IE and Sir
Bill's knighthood for services to the virus industry.


Try browsing the site on your phone. And these days you should start
to care about this stuff.

ive never had a mobile phone.

 

[the idiot]

i know i know i know but my dhtml menu looks so much nicer than mere word
links hehe ho hum. either i go back and redesign the whole site or i pretend
that the 10%(?) who have js turned off dont exist... (i know which i prefer)
why do they do it anyway, are they mad?

People without JS are used to pages not working. They look for the
alternative menu. You should add a text menu, maybe at the bottom-
[About][Documentaries][Interviews][Weblog]

yeah i know... and i will

 

[Toby Inkster]

all were talking about here is a simple dhtml menu... i thought firefox etc
had pop up blockers... surely that dont stop folk seein my little menu...

Yes, but there are still (*shock*! *horror*!) people using browsers that
don't block popups (popular pop-up blocking browsers are Opera, Mozilla,
Firefox and Windows XP SP2's IE6).

Some of those people will switch off Javascript to avoid popups.

Even in browsers with pop-up blocking, some people will switch off
Javascript because they find the majority of Javascript they encounter on
a daily basis to be annoying. (Scrolling marquees -- if the text is that
important, then why don't you leave it motionless so that I can READ IT!
Javascript rollovers -- wasting my time to make me download twice as many
images. And so forth.)

Other people will have Javascript disabled for security reasons.
http://msgs.securepoint.com/cgi/AT-sp-search?db=bugtraq&search=Javascript

Other people may have accidentally disabled Javascript and don't know how
to switch it back on.

And others will simply be using browsers that simply do not support it.

 

[the idiot]

menu...

Yes, but there are still (*shock*! *horror*!) people using browsers that
don't block popups (popular pop-up blocking browsers are Opera, Mozilla,
Firefox and Windows XP SP2's IE6).

Some of those people will switch off Javascript to avoid popups.

Even in browsers with pop-up blocking, some people will switch off
Javascript because they find the majority of Javascript they encounter on
a daily basis to be annoying. (Scrolling marquees -- if the text is that
important, then why don't you leave it motionless so that I can READ IT!
Javascript rollovers -- wasting my time to make me download twice as many
images. And so forth.)

Other people will have Javascript disabled for security reasons.
http://msgs.securepoint.com/cgi/AT-sp-search?db=bugtraq&search=Javascript

Other people may have accidentally disabled Javascript and don't know how
to switch it back on.

And others will simply be using browsers that simply do not support it.

--

then they should get a proper computer hehe
anyway im gonna stick word links at the bottom just so the mad can see

 

[Andy Dingley]

It was somewhere outside Barstow when "the idiot"

ive never had a mobile phone.

And if you use JS-dependent site nav, then neither will any of your
users.

 

[Andy Dingley]

It was somewhere outside Barstow when "the idiot"

then they should get a proper computer hehe

Okay, killfiled.

 

[Andy Dingley]

People without JS are used to pages not working. They look for the
alternative menu.

The trouble with this "alternative accessibility" approach is that it
involves _more_ work for the site developer. Why do it twice, when
it's so easy to do it right the first time ?

There's also the problem that learning a good technique is something
you do once, for all the sites you build. Duplicating things is a
per-page, per-site task. _Much_ more work.

You should add a text menu, maybe at the bottom-
[About][Documentaries][Interviews][Weblog]

You should possibly (probably) have such a menu, but because it's
convenient to repeat some nav at the bottom of the page, not to work
as an accessibility alternative.

 

[Carolyn Marenger]

It is perfectly easy to build a flashy Javascript menu that still works
when Javascript is disabled.

http://www.htmldog.com/articles/suckerfish/dropdowns/example/

Just a couple comments for you, using Konqueror 3.2.3, I noticed that it
isn't quite cross-compatible.

- the <dog> htmldog.com on the bottom hangs out over the right edge of the
border.

- The menus don't quite work, when hover over one of them, their drop down
list appears a couple inches higher, starting just above the top most
border. When I move the mouse off the three main menu items, to select
one of the sub items, the sub-menu disappears.

When I hover over Percoidei, the screen looks something like this:

+---------------+
+| Remoras >|---------------------+
|| Tilefishes >| |
|| Bluefishes >| |
|| Tigerfishes >| |
|+---------------+ |
| |
| |
| >Percoidei< Anabantoidei Gobiodei |
| |
| Hello. You have found... |

Hope the ASCII art is half decent.

Carolyn

 

[Carolyn Marenger]

then they should get a proper computer hehe
anyway im gonna stick word links at the bottom just so the mad can see

And which of my computers is not proper?

- The dual-header AMD Athalon 900MHz that I use as my workstation.
- The AMD Athalon 1.8GHz laptop.
- The celeron 900MHz that I use as a server.
- The AMD K6 350MHz that is my dedicated firewall and caching proxy server.
- The AMD K6 400MHz that is my win98/2K print server, game box and windows
based browser platform for testing my webpages.

Carolyn

 

[the idiot]

It was somewhere outside Barstow when "the idiot"


And if you use JS-dependent site nav, then neither will any of your
users.

they should get bigger phones hehe.