FAQ Topic - Internationalisation and Multinationalisation in javascript. (2010-03-23)

Discussion in 'Javascript' started by FAQ server, Mar 23, 2010.

  1. FAQ server

    FAQ server Guest

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------
    FAQ Topic - Internationalisation and Multinationalisation in
    javascript.
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------

    Internationalisation means using one form which is everywhere both
    acceptable and understood. Any international standard not supported by
    default can be coded for.

    For example, there is an International Standard for numeric Gregorian
    date format; but none for decimal and thousands separators.

    Multinationalisation means using different forms for different
    readers. It cannot work well in general, because it requires a
    knowledge of all preferences and the ability to choose the right
    one, in an environment where many systems are inappropriately
    set anyway.

    Javascript has a few Multinationalisation features. The various
    ` toString() `methods are all implementation dependent,
    but tend to use either UK or US settings (not necessarily correctly).
    ECMAScript Ed. 3 introduced some capabilities, including the
    ` toLocaleString() `method which should create a string
    based on the host's locale.

    Much more support is expected in future versions of ECMAScript.


    The complete comp.lang.javascript FAQ is at
    http://jibbering.com/faq/

    --

    The sendings of these daily posts are proficiently hosted
    by http://www.pair.com.
     
    FAQ server, Mar 23, 2010
    #1
    1. Advertising

  2. FAQ server wrote:

    > -----------------------------------------------------------------------
    > FAQ Topic - Internationalisation and Multinationalisation in
    > javascript.
    > -----------------------------------------------------------------------


    I thought it had been agreed that this distinction was mere invention,
    and that this FAQ entry be revised?


    PointedEars
    --
    Anyone who slaps a 'this page is best viewed with Browser X' label on
    a Web page appears to be yearning for the bad old days, before the Web,
    when you had very little chance of reading a document written on another
    computer, another word processor, or another network. -- Tim Berners-Lee
     
    Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn, Mar 23, 2010
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. Re: FAQ Topic - Internationalisation and Multinationalisation injavascript. (2010-03-23)

    Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn wrote:
    > FAQ server wrote:
    >
    >> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
    >> FAQ Topic - Internationalisation and Multinationalisation in
    >> javascript.
    >> -----------------------------------------------------------------------

    >
    > I thought it had been agreed that this distinction was mere invention,
    > and that this FAQ entry be revised?
    >

    I vaguely recall that Stockton had a good reason for wanting to keep
    multinationalisation. Probably something to the effect of having a
    tranlation to say, "French", but not indicating the specific locale
    (e.g. "Canadian French").
    --
    Garrett
    comp.lang.javascript FAQ: http://jibbering.com/faq/
     
    Garrett Smith, Mar 23, 2010
    #3
  4. In comp.lang.javascript message <hobdio$3lu$-
    september.org>, Tue, 23 Mar 2010 13:58:45, Garrett Smith
    <> posted:
    >Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn wrote:
    >> FAQ server wrote:
    >>
    >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
    >>>---
    >>> FAQ Topic - Internationalisation and Multinationalisation in
    >>> javascript.
    >>> -----------------------------------------------------------------------

    >> I thought it had been agreed that this distinction was mere
    >>invention,
    >> and that this FAQ entry be revised?
    >>

    >I vaguely recall that Stockton had a good reason for wanting to keep
    >multinationalisation. Probably something to the effect of having a
    >tranlation to say, "French", but not indicating the specific locale
    >(e.g. "Canadian French").


    No.

    Read the FAQ entry itself.

    Internationalisation means using one form acceptable everywhere (such as
    using the ISO 8601 form YYYY-MM-DD for numeric Gregorian dates).

    Multinationalisation means having a variety of forms which might suit
    different countries and cultures, and hoping to select one that suits
    who it is thought the current user actually will understand. It is like
    putting dates such as 14/01/2009 on a European visa (I don't know
    whether that is still used there), which, if it were a couple of days
    earlier, would nicely trap those who arrive in June thinking their visa
    good to December.

    Multinationalisation is never valuable where internationalisation is
    acceptable. It can be harmless; if the context indicates a date, and
    the numeric fields are respectively YYYY MM DD, then the punctuation
    used for the separator is unimportant - it will be understood whether it
    is . - or /, and word-wrap does no harm (the dash is preferable in text,
    and should definitely be used in machine data).

    To see the possible problems with multinationalisation, consider a
    German on business visiting a British employee of a Japanese firm
    working in France and using his host's made-in-Taiwan computer with
    hardware documentation originated in Taiwanese. With
    internationalisation, the Taiwanese only need to get it right once.


    IIRC, ECMA 5 has not fulfilled the hopes of the last sentence in the FAQ
    section, which should be adjusted accordingly.

    --
    (c) John Stockton, nr London, UK. ?@merlyn.demon.co.uk Turnpike v6.05.
    Web <URL:http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/> - w. FAQish topics, links, acronyms
    PAS EXE etc : <URL:http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/programs/> - see 00index.htm
    Dates - miscdate.htm estrdate.htm js-dates.htm pas-time.htm critdate.htm etc.
     
    Dr J R Stockton, Mar 24, 2010
    #4
  5. FAQ server

    Guest

    Re: FAQ Topic - Internationalisation and Multinationalisation injavascript. (2010-03-23)

    On Mar 24, 12:39 pm, Dr J R Stockton <>
    wrote:
    > In comp.lang.javascript message <hobdio$-
    > september.org>, Tue, 23 Mar 2010 13:58:45, Garrett Smith
    > <> posted:
    >
    >
    > >Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn wrote:
    > >> I thought it had been agreed that this distinction was mere
    > >>invention,
    > >> and that this FAQ entry be revised?

    >
    > >I vaguely recall that Stockton had a good reason for wanting to keep
    > >multinationalisation. Probably something to the effect of having a
    > >tranlation to say, "French", but not indicating the specific locale
    > >(e.g. "Canadian French").

    >
    > No.
    >
    > Read the FAQ entry itself.
    >
    > Internationalisation means using one form acceptable everywhere (such as
    > using the ISO 8601 form YYYY-MM-DD for numeric Gregorian dates).
    >
    > Multinationalisation means having a variety of forms which might suit
    > different countries and cultures, and hoping to select one that suits
    > who it is thought the current user actually will understand. It is like
    > putting dates such as 14/01/2009 on a European visa (I don't know
    > whether that is still used there), which, if it were a couple of days
    > earlier, would nicely trap those who arrive in June thinking their visa
    > good to December.
    >
    > Multinationalisation is never valuable where internationalisation is
    > acceptable. It can be harmless; if the context indicates a date, and
    > the numeric fields are respectively YYYY MM DD, then the punctuation
    > used for the separator is unimportant - it will be understood whether it
    > is . - or /, and word-wrap does no harm (the dash is preferable in text,
    > and should definitely be used in machine data).


    The prevalent terms, in the context of software engineering, are
    internationalization (i18n) and localization (L10n) as described at

    http://www.w3.org/International/questions/qa-i18n

    The only relevant paragraph in the FAQ entry is the one mentioning
    toLocaleString() (after some editing). The rest of the entry is
    inappropriate.


    > To see the possible problems with multinationalisation, consider a
    > German on business visiting a British employee of a Japanese firm
    > working in France and using his host's made-in-Taiwan computer with
    > hardware documentation originated in Taiwanese. With
    > internationalisation, the Taiwanese only need to get it right once.


    Are you describing the difficulties inherent in localization or are
    claiming that localization is unmerited? Clearly, an international
    standard is preferred to a localized variant, but can only be used
    when one exists. Proper design limits localization to the instances
    in which it is worthwhile.
     
    , Mar 25, 2010
    #5
  6. Re: FAQ Topic - Internationalisation and Multinationalisation in javascript. (2010-03-23)

    In comp.lang.javascript message <236f7c1f-ec15-4727-a2ff-e9adb31e9b6d@k6
    g2000prg.googlegroups.com>, Thu, 25 Mar 2010 04:04:45,
    "" <> posted:
    >
    >The prevalent terms, in the context of software engineering, are
    >internationalization (i18n) and localization (L10n) as described at
    >
    >http://www.w3.org/International/questions/qa-i18n


    The FAQ section subject line is written, as it should be, in English,
    not in nerd-jargon. That URL, as it rightly says, is only descriptive
    of usage within the W3C site. W3C authors are (manifestly) largely
    people with a rather limited education outside their own techy fields,
    and are far from being authorities on the English language.


    >> To see the possible problems with multinationalisation, consider a
    >> German on business visiting a British employee of a Japanese firm
    >> working in France and using his host's made-in-Taiwan computer with
    >> hardware documentation originated in Taiwanese. With
    >> internationalisation, the Taiwanese only need to get it right once.

    >
    >Are you describing the difficulties inherent in localization or are
    >claiming that localization is unmerited? Clearly, an international
    >standard is preferred to a localized variant, but can only be used
    >when one exists. Proper design limits localization to the instances
    >in which it is worthwhile.


    No. I made no mention of localisation.

    A web page should only be localised if it is aimed at a particular
    homogeneous locality. Example : Americans commonly write with a total
    disregard for anyone outside the 50 States, though some do consider
    D.C., Puerto Rico and other territories and perhaps even parts of
    Canada.

    Good localisation is easy enough, if the author is himself
    correspondingly local and if imported components are not trusted.

    Internationalisation means having a single version acceptable everywhere
    (the common US Usage of international as meaning foreign, give or take
    Canada (excluding PQ) is offensive).

    Multinationalisation really means multi-localisation; rather than having
    a single display acceptable everywhere, or a single display acceptable
    locally, it implies having multiple forms of display and attempting to
    give one suited to the current reader. It cannot work well, in general,
    without substantial skilled effort, and implies bloat at the server
    perhaps delivered to the client.

    Partial multinationalisation means offering more than one and less than
    all of the possible localisations.

    Full Multinationalisation should always include, as one of its forms,
    the Internationalised form.

    Of course, a page can be partially (local | ((multi | inter) national)
    ised. From his writing here, one might expect that a page designed &
    written by GS for anything other than a locally-minded readership would
    use ISO 8601 exclusively for numeric dates. It might multinationalise
    the decimal separator. It would be unlikely to include the word
    "colour".

    The quoted URL would be an excellent answer, if the page itself is
    correct, to an unnecessary sub-question like "What do W3C mean by
    Internationalisation and Localisation?".

    --
    (c) John Stockton, nr London UK. ?@merlyn.demon.co.uk Turnpike v6.05 MIME.
    <URL:http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/> TP/BP/Delphi/&c., FAQqy topics & links;
    <URL:http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/clpb-faq.txt> RAH Prins : c.l.p.b mFAQ;
    <URL:ftp://garbo.uwasa.fi/pc/link/tsfaqp.zip> Timo Salmi's Turbo Pascal FAQ.
     
    Dr J R Stockton, Mar 26, 2010
    #6
  7. FAQ server

    Guest

    Re: FAQ Topic - Internationalisation and Multinationalisation injavascript. (2010-03-23)

    On Mar 26, 9:10 am, Dr J R Stockton <>
    wrote:
    > In comp.lang.javascript message <236f7c1f-ec15-4727-a2ff-e9adb31e9b6d@k6
    > g2000prg.googlegroups.com>, Thu, 25 Mar 2010 04:04:45,
    > "" <> posted:
    >
    > >The prevalent terms, in the context of software engineering, are
    > >internationalization (i18n) and localization (L10n) as described at

    >
    > >http://www.w3.org/International/questions/qa-i18n

    >
    > The FAQ section subject line is written, as it should be, in English,
    > not in nerd-jargon.  That URL, as it rightly says, is only descriptive
    > of usage within the W3C site.  W3C authors are (manifestly) largely
    > people with a rather limited education outside their own techy fields,
    > and are far from being authorities on the English language.
    >
    > >> To see the possible problems with multinationalisation, consider a
    > >> German on business visiting a British employee of a Japanese firm
    > >> working in France and using his host's made-in-Taiwan computer with
    > >> hardware documentation originated in Taiwanese.  With
    > >> internationalisation, the Taiwanese only need to get it right once.

    >
    > >Are you describing the difficulties inherent in localization or are
    > >claiming that localization is unmerited?  Clearly, an international
    > >standard is preferred to a localized variant, but can only be used
    > >when one exists.  Proper design limits localization to the instances
    > >in which it is worthwhile.

    >
    > No.  I made no mention of localisation.
    >
    > A web page should only be localised if it is aimed at a particular
    > homogeneous locality.  Example : Americans commonly write with a total
    > disregard for anyone outside the 50 States, though some do consider
    > D.C., Puerto Rico and other territories and perhaps even parts of
    > Canada.
    >
    > Good localisation is easy enough, if the author is himself
    > correspondingly local and if imported components are not trusted.
    >
    > Internationalisation means having a single version acceptable everywhere
    > (the common US Usage of international as meaning foreign, give or take
    > Canada (excluding PQ) is offensive).
    >
    > Multinationalisation really means multi-localisation; rather than having
    > a single display acceptable everywhere, or a single display acceptable
    > locally, it implies having multiple forms of display and attempting to
    > give one suited to the current reader.  It cannot work well, in general,
    > without substantial skilled effort, and implies bloat at the server
    > perhaps delivered to the client.
    >
    > Partial multinationalisation means offering more than one and less than
    > all of the possible localisations.
    >
    > Full Multinationalisation should always include, as one of its forms,
    > the Internationalised form.
    >
    > Of course, a page can be partially (local | ((multi | inter) national)
    > ised.  From his writing here, one might expect that a page designed &
    > written by GS for anything other than a locally-minded readership would
    > use ISO 8601 exclusively for numeric dates.  It might multinationalise
    > the decimal separator.  It would be unlikely to include the word
    > "colour".
    >
    > The quoted URL would be an excellent answer, if the page itself is
    > correct, to an unnecessary sub-question like "What do W3C mean by
    > Internationalisation and Localisation?".
    >


    That link was not meant as an authoritative definition (as similarly
    stated in the linked document) of the terms for general use, but as an
    example of the expected usage among Javascript users. I suppose what
    you consider to be nerd jargon, I consider to be reasonably domain-
    specific language.

    The FAQ entry, if it warrants existence at all, should have a broader
    title such as "Internationalisation, Multinationalisation, and
    Localisation in Javascript" that will help alert the reader to the
    topic, regardless of the direction of his approach (though I doubt
    many would be searching for "multinationalization"). The FAQ entry's
    body need not contain definitions of the various terms as it should
    not be an *ization primer. A link to such a resource would be
    appropriate.


    As an aside, I will comment on your definitions. While your
    definitions of the terms are very understandable, I don't think they
    are official or universally accepted by any means. Can you provide
    non-anecdotal evidence of the legitimacy of these definitions?

    Per the Oxford Dictionary, and any general usage I am familiar with,
    internationalization (with an z or s) means making the character or
    use of something agree among several or many nations. Your alternate
    everywhere/all-nations definition would be better represented by
    another term such as universalization. Of course, while a web page
    can be targeted to all nations, it will likely only be acceptable to
    some or many nations.

    Multinationalization means making something pertain to multiple
    countries, which does not imply multiple localized versions any more
    than internationalization does. I feel your distinction between the
    multinationalization and internationalization is unnecessary, if not
    incorrect. If you disagree, any non-anecdotal or non-invented
    evidence would be welcome.
     
    , Mar 27, 2010
    #7
  8. Re: FAQ Topic - Internationalisation and Multinationalisation in javascript. (2010-03-23)

    In comp.lang.javascript message <bad1c46b-119b-4186-9ea5-8b3f074129c2@t9
    g2000prh.googlegroups.com>, Sat, 27 Mar 2010 14:50:50,
    "" <> posted:
    >On Mar 26, 9:10 am, Dr J R Stockton <>
    >wrote:
    >> In comp.lang.javascript message <236f7c1f-ec15-4727-a2ff-e9adb31e9b6d@k6
    >> g2000prg.googlegroups.com>, Thu, 25 Mar 2010 04:04:45,
    >> "" <> posted:
    >>
    >> >The prevalent terms, in the context of software engineering, are
    >> >internationalization (i18n) and localization (L10n) as described at

    >>
    >> >http://www.w3.org/International/questions/qa-i18n

    >>
    >> The FAQ section subject line is written, as it should be, in English,
    >> not in nerd-jargon.  That URL, as it rightly says, is only descriptive
    >> of usage within the W3C site.  W3C authors are (manifestly) largely
    >> people with a rather limited education outside their own techy fields,
    >> and are far from being authorities on the English language.


    >> A web page should only be localised if it is aimed at a particular
    >> homogeneous locality.  Example : Americans commonly write with a total
    >> disregard for anyone outside the 50 States, though some do consider
    >> D.C., Puerto Rico and other territories and perhaps even parts of
    >> Canada.
    >>
    >> Good localisation is easy enough, if the author is himself
    >> correspondingly local and if imported components are not trusted.
    >>
    >> Internationalisation means having a single version acceptable everywhere
    >> (the common US Usage of international as meaning foreign, give or take
    >> Canada (excluding PQ) is offensive).
    >>
    >> Multinationalisation really means multi-localisation; rather than having
    >> a single display acceptable everywhere, or a single display acceptable
    >> locally, it implies having multiple forms of display and attempting to
    >> give one suited to the current reader.  It cannot work well, in general,
    >> without substantial skilled effort, and implies bloat at the server
    >> perhaps delivered to the client.
    >>
    >> Partial multinationalisation means offering more than one and less than
    >> all of the possible localisations.
    >>
    >> Full Multinationalisation should always include, as one of its forms,
    >> the Internationalised form.
    >>
    >> Of course, a page can be partially (local | ((multi | inter) national)
    >> ised.  From his writing here, one might expect that a page designed &
    >> written by GS for anything other than a locally-minded readership would
    >> use ISO 8601 exclusively for numeric dates.  It might multinationalise
    >> the decimal separator.  It would be unlikely to include the word
    >> "colour".
    >>
    >> The quoted URL would be an excellent answer, if the page itself is
    >> correct, to an unnecessary sub-question like "What do W3C mean by
    >> Internationalisation and Localisation?".
    >>

    >
    >That link was not meant as an authoritative definition (as similarly
    >stated in the linked document) of the terms for general use, but as an
    >example of the expected usage among Javascript users. I suppose what
    >you consider to be nerd jargon, I consider to be reasonably domain-
    >specific language.


    Which a FAQ reader should not be expected to already know (or like).

    >The FAQ entry, if it warrants existence at all, should have a broader
    >title such as "Internationalisation, Multinationalisation, and
    >Localisation in Javascript" that will help alert the reader to the
    >topic, regardless of the direction of his approach (though I doubt
    >many would be searching for "multinationalization"). The FAQ entry's
    >body need not contain definitions of the various terms as it should
    >not be an *ization primer. A link to such a resource would be
    >appropriate.
    >
    >
    >As an aside, I will comment on your definitions. While your
    >definitions of the terms are very understandable, I don't think they
    >are official or universally accepted by any means. Can you provide
    >non-anecdotal evidence of the legitimacy of these definitions?


    I know the English language. You appear to be an American, and cannot
    be expected to know it correctly.

    >Per the Oxford Dictionary, and any general usage I am familiar with,
    >internationalization (with an z or s) means making the character or
    >use of something agree among several or many nations. Your alternate
    >everywhere/all-nations definition would be better represented by
    >another term such as universalization. Of course, while a web page
    >can be targeted to all nations, it will likely only be acceptable to
    >some or many nations.


    Using the term "universalisation" for that is unfair to the LGM
    community.

    >Multinationalization means making something pertain to multiple
    >countries, which does not imply multiple localized versions any more
    >than internationalization does. I feel your distinction between the
    >multinationalization and internationalization is unnecessary, if not
    >incorrect. If you disagree, any non-anecdotal or non-invented
    >evidence would be welcome.


    There are clearly three possibilities :
    Having a single display which is good for every reader
    Having a single display which is good only for some readers
    Having multiple displays and attempting to provide one which is good
    to the reader.

    Therefore, three terms are needed. The first is internationalisation,
    the second is localisation. Multinationalisation suits the third.

    --
    (c) John Stockton, nr London UK. ?@merlyn.demon.co.uk Turnpike v6.05 MIME.
    Web <URL:http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/> - FAQish topics, acronyms, & links.
    Proper <= 4-line sig. separator as above, a line exactly "-- " (RFCs 5536/7)
    Do not Mail News to me. Before a reply, quote with ">" or "> " (RFCs 5536/7)
     
    Dr J R Stockton, Mar 28, 2010
    #8
  9. FAQ server

    Tim Down Guest

    Re: FAQ Topic - Internationalisation and Multinationalisation injavascript. (2010-03-23)

    On Mar 28, 3:55 pm, Dr J R Stockton <>
    wrote:
    > >As an aside, I will comment on your definitions.  While your
    > >definitions of the terms are very understandable, I don't think they
    > >are official or universally accepted by any means.  Can you provide
    > >non-anecdotal evidence of the legitimacy of these definitions?

    >
    > I know the English language.  You appear to be an American, and cannot
    > be expected to know it correctly.


    Are you serious? If so, you are a pompous snob. Like it or not,
    English is spoken by considerably more non-English people than English
    people, and you have no say over what constitutes "correct" to such
    people.

    Tim
     
    Tim Down, Mar 29, 2010
    #9
  10. Re: FAQ Topic - Internationalisation and Multinationalisation in javascript. (2010-03-23)

    On Sun, 28 Mar 2010 at 15:55:09, in comp.lang.javascript, Dr J R
    Stockton wrote:

    <snip>
    >I know the English language. You appear to be an American, and cannot
    >be expected to know it correctly.

    <snip>

    As Pointed Ears would say, there is no such language. There is only the
    English family of languages.

    You would do better to complain about people who say outwith outside
    Scotland.

    And Americans should stop complaining about other people spelling
    differently. It was their revolting government that decided to change
    their spelling.

    So there :)

    John
    --
    John Harris
     
    John G Harris, Mar 29, 2010
    #10
  11. Re: FAQ Topic - Internationalisation and Multinationalisation in javascript. (2010-03-23)

    John G Harris wrote:

    > Dr J R Stockton wrote:
    >> I know the English language. You appear to be an American, and cannot
    >> be expected to know it correctly.

    >
    > As Pointed Ears would say, there is no such language. There is only the
    > English family of languages.


    (No space in the nickname, please.)

    I am afraid I have to disagree. With regard to linguistics, English *is* a
    language in the English (Insular Anglo-Frisian or Anglic) language group of
    the Anglo-Frisian language family (which in turn is a member of the West
    Germanic language family and so forth).

    Nevertheless, as with most if not all natural languages, there are
    variations of English, both in spelling and pronunciation; there are
    dialects and regional varieties, and none of those can be reasonably
    discounted as incorrect English.

    <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_language>


    PointedEars
    --
    Anyone who slaps a 'this page is best viewed with Browser X' label on
    a Web page appears to be yearning for the bad old days, before the Web,
    when you had very little chance of reading a document written on another
    computer, another word processor, or another network. -- Tim Berners-Lee
     
    Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn, Mar 30, 2010
    #11
  12. Re: FAQ Topic - Internationalisation and Multinationalisation injavascript. (2010-03-23)

    wrote:
    > On Mar 26, 9:10 am, Dr J R Stockton <>
    > wrote:
    >> In comp.lang.javascript message <236f7c1f-ec15-4727-a2ff-e9adb31e9b6d@k6
    >> g2000prg.googlegroups.com>, Thu, 25 Mar 2010 04:04:45,
    >> "" <> posted:
    >>
    >>> The prevalent terms, in the context of software engineering, are
    >>> internationalization (i18n) and localization (L10n) as described at
    >>> http://www.w3.org/International/questions/qa-i18n

    >> The FAQ section subject line is written, as it should be, in English,
    >> not in nerd-jargon. That URL, as it rightly says, is only descriptive
    >> of usage within the W3C site. W3C authors are (manifestly) largely
    >> people with a rather limited education outside their own techy fields,
    >> and are far from being authorities on the English language.
    >>


    What you are calling "nerd terms" are actually more commonly used. M18n,
    or multinationalization, is uncommon.


    [...]

    >
    > That link was not meant as an authoritative definition (as similarly
    > stated in the linked document) of the terms for general use, but as an
    > example of the expected usage among Javascript users. I suppose what
    > you consider to be nerd jargon, I consider to be reasonably domain-
    > specific language.
    >
    > The FAQ entry, if it warrants existence at all, should have a broader
    > title such as "Internationalisation, Multinationalisation, and
    > Localisation in Javascript" that will help alert the reader to the
    > topic, regardless of the direction of his approach (though I doubt
    > many would be searching for "multinationalization"). The FAQ entry's
    > body need not contain definitions of the various terms as it should
    > not be an *ization primer. A link to such a resource would be
    > appropriate.
    >


    Makes sense.

    >
    > As an aside, I will comment on your definitions. While your
    > definitions of the terms are very understandable, I don't think they
    > are official or universally accepted by any means. Can you provide
    > non-anecdotal evidence of the legitimacy of these definitions?
    >
    > Per the Oxford Dictionary, and any general usage I am familiar with,
    > internationalization (with an z or s) means making the character or
    > use of something agree among several or many nations. Your alternate
    > everywhere/all-nations definition would be better represented by
    > another term such as universalization. Of course, while a web page
    > can be targeted to all nations, it will likely only be acceptable to
    > some or many nations.
    >
    > Multinationalization means making something pertain to multiple
    > countries, which does not imply multiple localized versions any more
    > than internationalization does. I feel your distinction between the
    > multinationalization and internationalization is unnecessary, if not
    > incorrect. If you disagree, any non-anecdotal or non-invented
    > evidence would be welcome.


    It seems to makes sense to use:
    Internationalisation and Localisation in javascript.
    --
    Garrett
    comp.lang.javascript FAQ: http://jibbering.com/faq/
     
    Garrett Smith, Apr 16, 2010
    #12
  13. FAQ server

    VK Guest

    Re: FAQ Topic - Internationalisation and Multinationalisation injavascript. (2010-03-23)

    On Apr 16, 10:31 am, Garrett Smith <> wrote:
    > wrote:
    > > On Mar 26, 9:10 am, Dr J R Stockton <>
    > > wrote:
    > >> In comp.lang.javascript message <236f7c1f-ec15-4727-a2ff-e9adb31e9b6d@k6
    > >> g2000prg.googlegroups.com>, Thu, 25 Mar 2010 04:04:45,
    > >> "" <> posted:

    >
    > >>> The prevalent terms, in the context of software engineering, are
    > >>> internationalization (i18n) and localization (L10n) as described at
    > >>>http://www.w3.org/International/questions/qa-i18n
    > >> The FAQ section subject line is written, as it should be, in English,
    > >> not in nerd-jargon.  That URL, as it rightly says, is only descriptive
    > >> of usage within the W3C site.  W3C authors are (manifestly) largely
    > >> people with a rather limited education outside their own techy fields,
    > >> and are far from being authorities on the English language.

    >
    > What you are calling "nerd terms" are actually more commonly used. M18n,
    > or multinationalization, is uncommon.
    >
    > [...]
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > > That link was not meant as an authoritative definition (as similarly
    > > stated in the linked document) of the terms for general use, but as an
    > > example of the expected usage among Javascript users.  I suppose what
    > > you consider to be nerd jargon, I consider to be reasonably domain-
    > > specific language.

    >
    > > The FAQ entry, if it warrants existence at all, should have a broader
    > > title such as "Internationalisation, Multinationalisation, and
    > > Localisation in Javascript" that will help alert the reader to the
    > > topic, regardless of the direction of his approach (though I doubt
    > > many would be searching for "multinationalization").  The FAQ entry's
    > > body need not contain definitions of the various terms as it should
    > > not be an *ization primer.  A link to such a resource would be
    > > appropriate.

    >
    > Makes sense.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > > As an aside, I will comment on your definitions.  While your
    > > definitions of the terms are very understandable, I don't think they
    > > are official or universally accepted by any means.  Can you provide
    > > non-anecdotal evidence of the legitimacy of these definitions?

    >
    > > Per the Oxford Dictionary, and any general usage I am familiar with,
    > > internationalization (with an z or s) means making the character or
    > > use of something agree among several or many nations.  Your alternate
    > > everywhere/all-nations definition would be better represented by
    > > another term such as universalization.  Of course, while a web page
    > > can be targeted to all nations, it will likely only be acceptable to
    > > some or many nations.

    >
    > > Multinationalization means making something pertain to multiple
    > > countries, which does not imply multiple localized versions any more
    > > than internationalization does.  I feel your distinction between the
    > > multinationalization and internationalization is unnecessary, if not
    > > incorrect.  If you disagree, any non-anecdotal or non-invented
    > > evidence would be welcome.

    >
    > It seems to makes sense to use:
    >    Internationalisation and Localisation in javascript.


    Proposed many years ago but always opposed by Dr. Stockton with his GB-
    centric nationalistic buzz. Till now not sure if he's really serious
    or if it's a part of a game that became a part of the life. Actually
    the really right title is "Localisation in JavaScript" or "JavaScript
    and Locales"

    Multinationalization is mad term w/o an exact anyhow commonly accepted
    meaning.

    Internationalisation is even more strange as it implies some
    JavaScript-specific rules to the world in whole.

    IMHO.
     
    VK, Apr 16, 2010
    #13
  14. Re: FAQ Topic - Internationalisation and Multinationalisation in javascript. (2010-03-23)

    In comp.lang.javascript message <be960cec-b620-47f9-ba84-f2c966730e30@z3
    g2000yqz.googlegroups.com>, Fri, 16 Apr 2010 10:54:06, VK
    <> posted:
    >> It seems to makes sense to use:
    >>    Internationalisation and Localisation in javascript.


    No. The meaning of Internationalisation, in the absence of
    Multinationalisation, is uncertain. The word is often used by Americans
    where people on other countries would use "foreign", ignoring the fact
    that to the majority of the English-speaking world, including Canada,
    they themselves are foreign.

    Consider a programming page written by a Frenchman.

    If it is written in French, it will be fully localised to Francophone
    areas, although its probable numeric dates (France uses D/M/Y) will
    confuse the Quebecois unless they have resisted corruption from the
    South. That is localised.

    If it is written in good English, it will be understandable by well
    educated programmers almost everywhere if the numeric dates are written
    in multiple forms according to reader preference (!= locality). That is
    multinationalised.

    And if it is written in good English with the dates as yyyy-mm-dd it is
    fully internationalised and can be understood across the whole world.

    There are three possibilities, and the Subject and the contents need to
    reflect them equally.

    >Proposed many years ago but always opposed by Dr. Stockton with his GB-
    >centric nationalistic buzz.


    The lower orders remain petulant; but the views of someone who does not
    give a real name and posts from an unknown location are of no value.

    --
    (c) John Stockton, nr London UK. ?@merlyn.demon.co.uk Turnpike v6.05 MIME.
    Web <URL:http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/> - FAQish topics, acronyms, & links.
    Proper <= 4-line sig. separator as above, a line exactly "-- " (RFCs 5536/7)
    Do not Mail News to me. Before a reply, quote with ">" or "> " (RFCs 5536/7)
     
    Dr J R Stockton, Apr 17, 2010
    #14
  15. Re: FAQ Topic - Internationalisation and Multinationalisation injavascript. (2010-03-23)

    Dr J R Stockton wrote:
    > In comp.lang.javascript message <be960cec-b620-47f9-ba84-f2c966730e30@z3
    > g2000yqz.googlegroups.com>, Fri, 16 Apr 2010 10:54:06, VK
    > <> posted:
    >>> It seems to makes sense to use:
    >>> Internationalisation and Localisation in javascript.

    >
    > No. The meaning of Internationalisation, in the absence of
    > Multinationalisation, is uncertain. The word is often used by Americans
    > where people on other countries would use "foreign", ignoring the fact
    > that to the majority of the English-speaking world, including Canada,
    > they themselves are foreign.
    >


    Internationalization may be, by some, misconstrued as meaning "foreign".

    However, the term "internationalization", as it is used in software
    development, should be understood by software developers, especially
    when used in the phrase "internationalization and localization".

    | Internationalization is the process of designing a software
    | application so that it can be adapted to various languages and regions
    | without engineering changes.

    <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internationalization_and_localization>

    Where is the term "multinationalization" defined, so that a comparison
    can be made?
    --
    Garrett
    comp.lang.javascript FAQ: http://jibbering.com/faq/
     
    Garrett Smith, Apr 18, 2010
    #15
  16. FAQ server

    VK Guest

    Re: FAQ Topic - Internationalisation and Multinationalisation injavascript. (2010-03-23)

    On Apr 18, 8:49 am, Garrett Smith <> wrote:
    > Where is the term "multinationalization" defined, so that a comparison
    > can be made?


    Encyclopedia Britannica
    http://www.britannica.com/bps/search?query=multinationalization
    "Sorry, we were unable to find an exact match for
    multinationalization."

    Merriam-Webster
    http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/multinationalization
    "The word you've entered isn't in the dictionary."

    Obviously the same for the Random House Webster's.

    Yet both of the last ones know "multinational":

    1: of or relating to more than two nationalities <a multinational
    society>
    2: a) of, relating to, or involving more than two nations <a
    multinational alliance>
    b) having divisions in more than two countries <a multinational
    corporation>
    (Merriam-Webster)

    1: a corporation with operations and subsidiaries in several countries
    (noun)
    2: of, pertaining to, or involving several nations or multinationals
    (adj.)
    (Random House Webster's)

    Google search shows that the business-related definition is prevailing
    yet the term still out of anyhow wide use, it is from the "corporate
    buzztalk" lingo:
    http://www.google.com/#q=multinationalization

    For the pleasure of Mr.Stockton let's us assume for a moment that in
    the US they don't know how to speak English for several centuries on
    the go...

    Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary
    http://dictionary.cambridge.org/spellcheck/british/?q=multinationalization
    http://dictionary.cambridge.org/spellcheck/british/?q=multinationalisation
    "Did you spell it correctly? Here are some alternatives:.." (neither
    one close to)

    Oxford Dictionaries series:
    http://www.askoxford.com/results/?view=dict&freesearch=multinationalization
    http://www.askoxford.com/results/?view=dict&freesearch=multinationalisation
    "Sorry, there were no results for your search."

    Australia, you're our last hope:

    Macquarie Dictionary
    http://www.macquariedictionary.com.au
    (free registration needed, so no direct links):
    "Sorry. We could not find 'multinationalization'."
    "Sorry. We could not find 'multinationalisation'."

    I think the question is closed. It might be a lot of discussions
    around many technical topics and about the best way to express them:
    yet I deeply hope that the consensus is here that English FAQ should
    be written in proper English, not some fantastic lingo of an
    individual group participant. It may be a discussion of using the
    British spelling or the conventional one. Still as it was
    "internationaliZation" for years w/o anyone jumping on the wall
    because of it - let it be as it is.

    This way the FAQ topic is to be renamed to "Internationalization and
    localization in Javascript"
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internationalization_and_localization

    Respectively the current FAQ question has to be significantly changed
    with all "multinationalization" stuff made of the top of one's head
    removed. The topics to remain and to be clarified:
    1. Locale-dependent string comparison and sorting
    2. Locale-dependent date and time display
    3. Possibly a good library reference with Java-like Calendar
    functionality:
    http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.5.0/docs/api/java/util/Calendar.html

    P.S. Again, if we are using English for FAQ, let's us use it properly.
    The proper nouns in English always start with a capital letter: so not
    "javascript" but "Javascript" please.
    http://www.learnenglish.de/grammar/nounproper.htm
     
    VK, Apr 18, 2010
    #16
  17. FAQ server

    VK Guest

    Re: FAQ Topic - Internationalisation and Multinationalisation injavascript. (2010-03-23)

    On Apr 18, 3:57 pm, VK <> wrote:
    > This way the FAQ topic is to be renamed to "Internationalization and
    > localization in Javascript"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internationalization_and_localization
    >
    > Respectively the current FAQ question has to be significantly changed
    > with all "multinationalization" stuff made of the top of one's head
    > removed. The topics to remain and to be clarified:
    > 1. Locale-dependent string comparison and sorting
    > 2. Locale-dependent date and time display
    > 3. Possibly a good library reference with Java-like Calendar
    > functionality:http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.5.0/docs/api/java/util/Calendar.html


    More precisely:

    aStringObject.localeCompare(anotherString)
    bugs, pecularities (a.k.a. "bugs promoted to features by their
    respective producer"), cross-UA support

    aDateObject.toLocaleString()
    bugs, pecularities (a.k.a. "bugs promoted to features by their
    respective producer"), cross-UA support

    Javascript wrapper library to fix the bugs and pecularities of the
    above native methods and to add these methods where missing if
    anywhere

    Optional: Javascript Calendar (Java-like) library for full date/time
    manipulations. Should be RMI over AJAX or JSONet: because Earth-wide
    accomodation of all date/time formats, respective month/weekday names,
    their grammatical forms in non-isolating languages - it would make a
    huge file size if loaded at once.
     
    VK, Apr 18, 2010
    #17
  18. FAQ server

    Sean Kinsey Guest

    Re: FAQ Topic - Internationalisation and Multinationalisation injavascript. (2010-03-23)

    On Apr 18, 4:08 pm, VK <> wrote:
    > Optional: Javascript Calendar (Java-like) library for full date/time
    > manipulations. Should be RMI over AJAX or JSONet:


    RMI? JSONet? Kinda outdated aren't they? :)
    If you want to go for a cross-domain RPC implementation then http://easyxdm..net/
    solves that.

    But in this particular situation, I'm guessing there are better
    approaches (dynamic loading of localized files).
     
    Sean Kinsey, Apr 18, 2010
    #18
  19. Re: FAQ Topic - Internationalisation and Multinationalisation in javascript. (2010-03-23)

    On Sun, 18 Apr 2010 at 04:57:19, in comp.lang.javascript, VK wrote:

    <snip>
    >yet I deeply hope that the consensus is here that English FAQ should
    >be written in proper English, not some fantastic lingo of


    Since when has 'JScript' been 'proper' English and not the fantastic
    invention of a marketing man ?


    <snip>
    >P.S. Again, if we are using English for FAQ, let's us use it properly.
    >The proper nouns in English always start with a capital letter: so not
    >"javascript" but "Javascript" please.
    >http://www.learnenglish.de/grammar/nounproper.htm


    ee cummings.

    John
    --
    John Harris
     
    John G Harris, Apr 18, 2010
    #19
  20. FAQ server

    VK Guest

    Re: FAQ Topic - Internationalisation and Multinationalisation injavascript. (2010-03-23)

    > >yet I deeply hope that the consensus is here that English FAQ should
    > >be written in proper English, not some fantastic lingo of

    >
    > Since when has 'JScript' been 'proper' English and not the fantastic
    > invention of a marketing man ?


    Do you distinguish between proper nouns and common nouns?
    For a trademark anyone can invent JavaScript, JScript, krispy Kreme
    etc. and nothing one can do but quote it or not. From the other side
    Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
    Did gyre and gimble in the wabe:
    All mimsy were the borogoves,
    And the mome raths outgrabe.
    is not a proper English. What is great for Alice is not really
    suitable for technical FAQ

    > >P.S. Again, if we are using English for FAQ, let's us use it properly.
    > >The proper nouns in English always start with a capital letter: so not
    > >"javascript" but "Javascript" please.
    > >http://www.learnenglish.de/grammar/nounproper.htm

    >
    > ee cummings.


    An argument pro|contra in relation to "Javascript" term or a
    comparison of me with him? Did not get that one.
     
    VK, Apr 18, 2010
    #20
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