html vs htm

B

Brian Cryer

Gus Richter said:
Basically it was MS-DOS which had this restriction and it is not
"probably" but a "fact".


MS-DOS in this instance is the ancient system referred to here, which
later was replaced by Win NT3.5 and Win'95 and referred to as from then on
as the modern ones. Not fiction at all.

Sorry, clearly I've not made myself clear:

1. That on MS-DOS one would have used .htm and not .html goes without
question. (Although strictly .htm wouldn't have been used it would have been
..HTM. I think lower case only came in when longer file names were supported
.... sorry that could lead to a long pragmatic [and pointless] discussion.)

2. What does not follow from point 1 is the assertion that modern systems
use .html and that it is only ancient systems which use .htm. Many modern
systems choose to use .htm, therefore to indicate that only ancient/old
systems use .htm is incorrect (hence my use of the word "fiction").
The article is very brief on the subject, similarly to statements made
earlier in this discussion. Some general details have been brought forward
without having to write a complete thesis. Details may be obtained in the
link I provided earlier.

Yes its brief, but it was the closest I could find which was relevant to
this discussion.

Jukka got it spot on with the statement: The only difference is the letter
"l" in the filename.
Certainly .htm is an abbreviation for .html just as .xht is for .xhtml .

Good example. Consider the implications of your example: Would you assert
that .xht is for ancient systems while .xhtml is for modern ones? I very
much doubt it.
 
T

Tim Streater

Now you're confusing me. "The de facto .html standard, which would have
been in place...", was it the standard (de facto or otherwise) or would
it have been the standard if it actually was in place, or just should
have been the standard because that's how Tim learned it?

Perhaps this is just a UK/US grammar difference. I'll change it to be:
"The de facto .html standard that *was* in place ...".
No, I'm telling you that many of them didn't know the difference. They
weren't "command line cobblers" and they didn't have access to a *nix
(the Holy Grail of OS's) box. They used the defaults in whatever
editors they could find.

And they would have served them from boxes which could support .html,
and should have been exposed already to the de facto .html standard. So
why didn't they follow it?
Again, thought the server doesn't seem to have ever been the problem,
supporting any file name, you are saying people who authored on
desktops, and used editors that employed 3 character extensions, should
have been prohibited from participating until they could speak fluent
*nix, and passed whatever other entrance exam "real programmers"
presented for them? Good luck with that.

You don't have to speak fluent unix. I certainly don't (and in fact
every time I think I ought to learn more than I know now, after five
minutes I want to throw the computer out of the window). As I keep
saying, the servers (unix or otherwise) would have been capable of
supporting arbitrary extensions. No bar there, then, to following the de
facto standard already in place.
 
W

William Gill

Perhaps this is just a UK/US grammar difference. I'll change it to be:
"The de facto .html standard that *was* in place ...".



And they would have served them from boxes which could support .html,
and should have been exposed already to the de facto .html standard. So
why didn't they follow it?


You don't have to speak fluent unix. I certainly don't (and in fact
every time I think I ought to learn more than I know now, after five
minutes I want to throw the computer out of the window). As I keep
saying, the servers (unix or otherwise) would have been capable of
supporting arbitrary extensions. No bar there, then, to following the de
facto standard already in place.
Well, I'll concede one point. The 3 character extension can be traced
back to Windows programmers, or more precisely programmers confined to
FAT systems.

Looking back both sides of the isle needed major modification to keep up
with a rapidly evolving technology (FAT's naming and addressing
limitations, and Unix's inode related thrashing), though one was more
readily apparent.

I would suggest that naming is a convention, not a standard as I don't
think many FAT system users would seek out or follow a "standard" that
starts from the position "first of all, you using the wrong system."
(since FAT systems were incapable 4 character file extensions).

I would also suggest that much of the ensuing contention was more of an
adolescent "mine's bigger than yours", than anything else. Much like
the endless discourse between Apple and PC fanatics.

I have on more than one occasion, purchased software such as editors
that had obvious faulty assumption errors, and wouldn't have passed a
techno-purist's inspection, but overall performed the work I needed
done. They may have adhered to 8.3, or at least the .3 part, long after
the restriction was eliminated, but were otherwise intuitive, efficient,
and functional. I wasn't spending the money to promote some computer
religion. I was spending it to satisfy a need. Voltaire may have
captured it when he said "The perfect is the enemy of the good."

As for Consistency for the users, there is more than one user community.
There is an end user community who is presented with typing
www.example.com, and is served a document they may never know the name
of, or presented with <A
HREF="www.example.com\documents\everything_you_ever_needed_to_know.html">info</A>
and still doesn't know the file name.

Another user community is the web developer who is responsible for the
<A
HREF="www.example.com\documents\everything_you_ever_needed_to_know.html"> part
of things. Is it "consistent" to have to create source documents using
3 char extensions; Test them for broken links; upload them to the
server; and then rename, re-edit, and retest everything once it's on the
server? Not in my shop. Especially since it didn't matter to the
production servers or to the end users. Should I waste valuable time
and resources, possibly injecting errors, to satisfy some *nix purist?
I followed "standards", but they were domain specific, i.e. specific to
my shop, and they didn't violate anything but someone else's preference.
In fact I still adhere to three character extensions because I know
that after all this time I am more likely to create typing errors if I
attempt to change (I've already confessed to being ancient). What does
it cost me? The possible derision of some *nix zealot. I think I can
live with that.

I have heard it said that for most people, history began the day they
were born and they see everything in that context. I'm sure a similar
aphorism can be made about operating systems.

Have a pleasant weekend my friend.
 
W

William Gill

1. That on MS-DOS one would have used .htm and not .html goes without
question. (Although strictly .htm wouldn't have been used it would have
been .HTM. I think lower case only came in when longer file names were
supported ... sorry that could lead to a long pragmatic [and pointless]
discussion.)
At the risk of precipitating that "long pragmatic [and pointless]
discussion" I don't believe FAT was case sensitive. It did however
convert the extension to upper case for storage. (i.e. a file would be
saved as .HTM, but could be accessed via any permutation of character case)
2. What does not follow from point 1 is the assertion that modern
systems use .html and that it is only ancient systems which use .htm.
Many modern systems choose to use .htm, therefore to indicate that only
ancient/old systems use .htm is incorrect (hence my use of the word
"fiction").
Brian, your logic is solid.

The proposition:
- FAT systems were restricted to 8.3 file naming
- FAT systems are ancient
- Therefore modern systems use .html

Is a logical fallacy, it relies on an either/or condition that doesn't
exist. It can be disproved by demonstrating that:
- *nix is a modern system
- Developers sometimes use .htm on *nix systems
- Therefore modern systems use whatever the developer wants.
Jukka got it spot on with the statement: The only difference is the
letter "l" in the filename.
It can be argued that the need for such abbreviations is predicated on
ancient restrictions, but some now argue that the elimination of the
original restriction mandates elimination of the abbreviations. Though
I don't agree.

However, if I was advising a novice I might suggest adoption of the
unabbreviated naming convention.
 
M

Mike S

The difference is the letter "l" in the filename.
You can make the difference matter if you like. For example, you could
have both .htm and .html files in the same directory, for windows-1252
encoded and utf-8 encoded documents, respectively, and you could put the
lines
AddType text/html;charset=windows-1252 HTM
AddType text/html;charset=utf-8 HTML
into the .htaccess file of that directory, if the files are on web
server running Apache.
<snip>

That's a nice trick, thanks!
 
J

Jonathan N. Little

The said:
Jonathan N. Little wrote:
... the diference is so apparent. one has an 'l' and the other doesn't


Ah yup, but why are your PM me? Please discover the difference between
the "Reply" and "Reply all" button.
 
D

Dan

  There is an end user community who is presented with typingwww.example.com, and is served a document they may never know the name
of, or presented with <A
HREF="www.example.com\documents\everything_you_ever_needed_to_know.html">info</A>
and still doesn't know the file name.

That's a malformed URL in several respects. It's missing the
"http://" (or other URI scheme) prefix, meaning that it would be
interpreted as a relative URL by browsers. Also, it uses backslashes
as a separator instead of the proper forward slash.
 
D

Dan

I'm not sure exactly which year it was, but until then, ICANN did require
the WWW. I recall hearing about this on TechTv (now G4).

ICANN has never had any authority over host-specific things such as
the naming of hosts and subdomains within a domain. ICANN didn't
exist yet at the time when the convention (always a convention, not a
mandatory standard) of using "www" was established. The first Web
site, at CERN, was at the address "http://info.cern.ch/", so the "www"
was never mandatory.
 
A

aUsAys.com

ICANN has never had any authority over host-specific things such as
the naming of hosts and subdomains within a domain.  ICANN didn't
exist yet at the time when the convention (always a convention, not a
mandatory standard) of using "www" was established.  The first Web
site, at CERN, was at the address "http://info.cern.ch/", so the "www"
was never mandatory.

Submit your articles for fast approval http://www.ausays.com/
 
W

William Gill

That's a malformed URL in several respects. It's missing the
"http://" (or other URI scheme) prefix, meaning that it would be
interpreted as a relative URL by browsers. Also, it uses backslashes
as a separator instead of the proper forward slash.

So I guess that renders my point(even if taken in context) invalid, or
does it make your comment malformed in several respects?
 

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