IDLE: A cornicopia of mediocrity and obfuscation.

[rantingrick]

If you despise IDLE so much - use one of the many other IDE's that
support Python;  move on.

Not exactly. Can we continue to ignore such lackluster and shabby code
in OUR stdlib. Remember the code reflects on all of us!

 

[Jean-Michel Pichavant]

Not exactly. Can we continue to ignore such lackluster and shabby code
in OUR stdlib. Remember the code reflects on all of us!

Can we continue to ignore such lackluster and shabby trolls in OUR
mailing list ? Fortunately, the behavior of one does not reflect the
behavior of us all.

In a more serious way, just count the people who second your
prosposition. It's around 0. It is usually a good sign that you're
wrong. This rule kinda applies to anyone, don't take it personnaly.

.... or maybe you're just trolling, in which case you can thank me for
feeding.

JM

 

[rantingrick]

In a more serious way, just count the people who second your
prosposition. It's around 0. It is usually a good sign that you're
wrong. This rule kinda applies to anyone, don't take it personnaly.

Well your statment completely ignores the silent majority. Are you
telling me that this sloth of trolls, minions, and flamers that have
so far replied are represetative of this fine community. Gawd i hope
NOT!. Here is a list of the compiled personalities...


#-- Embedded Trolls and Minions --#
Steven D'Aprano(smart and witty (annoying) troll)
Stephan Hansen (controversy troll)
Ben Finny (haughty troll)
alex23(angry/dangerous troll)
Tyler Littlefeild(confused troll)
Bryan ? (annoying troll)
Corey Richarson
Nicholas Devenish
Alexander Kapps
rusi ?
Andre ?
Geremy Condra (troll-wagoneer)
Ethan Furman
Noah Hall
Adam Skutt
Arndt Rodger Schnieder
Mark Roseman (Tkinter's minion)


#-- Occasonal Flamers --#
Micheal Torrie
Grant Edwards
MRAB
Thomas L Shinnink
Peter Otten
Giampaolo Rodola
Giacomo Boffi
malcom ?
Zeissmann
Mel
Owen Jacobson
Robert ?

#-- Complete Nobodys --#
Bill Felton
flebber

#-- MIA --#
GvR
Steve Holden

#-- Moderates --#
Richard Johnson
Terry Reedy
Kevin Walzer
Octavian Rasnita
Robert Kern
Brenden Simon
Tommy Grav
Martin V Leowis
Ian ?
Tim Chase
CM
Bob Martin
Neil Hodgenson
Robin Dunn
Benjamin Kaplan
Jerry Hill
Patty ?
Martin Gregorie
Albert van der Horst
Martin P Hellwig
jmfauth
Steven Howe
Antoine Pitrou
Hank Fay
Katie T
Gerry Reno
Stefen Behnel

26 moderates
31 trolls, minions, sockpuppets, and or flamers
2 missing in action

 

[Noah Hall]

#-- Embedded Trolls and Minions --#
Steven D'Aprano(smart and witty (annoying) troll)
Stephan Hansen (controversy troll)
Ben Finny (haughty troll)
alex23(angry/dangerous troll)
Tyler Littlefeild(confused troll)
Bryan ? (annoying troll)
Corey Richarson
Nicholas Devenish
Alexander Kapps
rusi ?
Andre ?
Geremy Condra (troll-wagoneer)
Ethan Furman
Noah Hall
Adam Skutt
Arndt Rodger Schnieder
Mark Roseman (Tkinter's minion)

These people, including myself, aren't trolls nor minions. They just
don't agree with you.

And on the topic of IDLE, I agree the coding's not great, but I
disagree with it being a problem for the Python community. I've never,
ever seen a thread saying "OMG, WHAT DOES THIS IDLE SOURCE CODE
EXTRACT MEAN? PLEASE HELP, I CAN'T UNDERSTAND IDLE, THEREFORE I CAN
NOT USE Tkinter! I'm leaving Python, Visual Basic's for me from now
on! NO DAMN IDLE TO MESS UP EVERYTHING, YOU SEE?"

 

[Terry Reedy]

Yes. IDLE is first and foremost a tool to get work done. However we
should not ignore the fact that IDLE could also be a great learning
resource for Tkinter GUI's and other subjects. Why not clean up the
code base? We could start small. First, move the custom widgets like
textView, Tabbedpages, FindDialog, ReplaceDialog, and TreeWidget into
the lib-tk for others to use more freely. Then we can modify the
"event robbers" CallTips, ParenMatch, and ColorDelegator.

Perhaps, after the repository moves from svn to hg, some 'we' will.
Maybe by then, you will have had your fun and be ready to work. Maybe
Kevin would help a bit.

Such a project would be carried out on the tracker and idle-sig mailing
list. Normal decorum would be required -- no ranting or insulting. The
first thing to do, in my opinion, is to review existing patches on the
tracker.

Well some changes and improvements can be made to the UI as well.

There is patch on the tracker, by G. Polo, as I remember, to replace tk
widgets with the newer themed ttk widgets. It needs to be reviewed and
tested. To make a big change (or proceed with any refactoring) better
automated testing would be very useful.

 

[rantingrick]

These people, including myself, aren't trolls nor minions. They just
don't agree with you.

No they are trolls and they have demonstrated trollish behavior on
many occasions. Some have even threatened to kill me. Can you believe
that? If you will look over my moderate list you will see that many do
not agree with me completely however they express their disagreement
in a moderate way. On the other hand the trolls and flamers just hurl
insults and inflammatory speech. The trolls and flamers don't offer
any argument to back up their statements. They only hurl more
emotional bile.

And on the topic of IDLE, I agree the coding's not great,

See now you are offering truth in your argument! Keep this up and i'll
move you over to the occasional flamers group. Then over time, if you
can demonstrate an ability to engage in lively discussion based on
facts and not emotion, i *may* even move you into the moderates group.
I believe in every troll there is a rational person just waiting to
break free.

but I
disagree with it being a problem for the Python community. I've never,
ever seen a thread saying "OMG, WHAT DOES THIS IDLE SOURCE CODE
EXTRACT MEAN? PLEASE HELP,

Thats because even the maintainers of IDLE don't understand completely
how it works. It is a true nightmare of code horror -- of *epic*
proportions!

I CAN'T UNDERSTAND IDLE, THEREFORE I CAN
NOT USE Tkinter! I'm leaving Python, Visual Basic's for me from now
on! NO DAMN IDLE TO MESS UP EVERYTHING, YOU SEE?"

Well this would be expected of an emotionally driven creature. One who
cannot wield the tools of reason and logic. I pity these poor souls
just as i pity the trolls in the troll group. But like they say: When
your at the bottom there is only one direction to go... Strait up!
Sadly some of these folks may be suffering from gimbal lock with their
up vector pointing strait down.

 

[Kevin Walzer]

Maybe Kevin would help a bit.

Probably not--IDLE is good enough for my needs. I've submitted some
(rather extensive) patches for things that annoyed me and got in my way,
and they eventually made it in. (The classic open source
pathway--scratching my own itch.) Beyond that, though, hacking on IDLE
isn't a project I have time for.

--Kevin

 

[rantingrick]

Perhaps, after the repository moves from svn to hg, some 'we' will.

Well the best attribute of IDLE is backward compatibility -- there is
none to worry about. IDLE is not a module with an interface, it's just
a tool. So we could change anything we want without worry of causing
code breakage. There is not good reason NOT to fix IDLE.

Maybe Kevin would help a bit.

I was hoping he would get involved however his last post proved
otherwise. I know he has his own projects however he would have been a
valuable asset for the ttk theming stuff.

Such a project would be carried out on the tracker and idle-sig mailing
list. Normal decorum would be required -- no ranting or insulting. The
first thing to do, in my opinion, is to review existing patches on the
tracker.

Agreed. Terry (or anyone) can you give some link to info on "hg" so i
can study up on this topic? Thanks

There is patch on the tracker, by G. Polo, as I remember, to replace tk
widgets with the newer themed ttk widgets. It needs to be reviewed and
tested. To make a big change (or proceed with any refactoring) better
automated testing would be very useful.

Yes "turning on" the themes would be a huge improvement. I also wished
IDLE would look better.

 

[Littlefield, Tyler]

See now you are offering truth in your argument! Keep this up and i'll

>move you over to the occasional flamers group. Then over time, if you
>can demonstrate an ability to engage in lively discussion based on
>facts and not emotion, i *may* even move you into the moderates group.

O no, whatever shall I do. I apparently have no hope of being moved into
the moderates group because I don't agree with him. I hope everyone will
excuse me now, I must dash off to slit my wrists in a tub of warm water
and listen to Free Bird, while morning over the fact that I may *never*
get moved into RR's moderate's group. Tisk tisk.

 

[rantingrick]

I hope everyone will
excuse me now, I must dash off to slit  my wrists in a tub of warm water
and listen to Free Bird,

Free Bird! hmm, I would have chosen Chopin's nocturne 48-1 or 72-1 if
i was feeling rather melancholy at the moment. Then there is always
the funeral march if you really want to lay it on thick. However the
march does have a rather lengthy "hopeful" section that may make you
give second thoughts. Or perhaps the Berceuse in D-flat Major as a
final glorious celebration of life as one journeys beyond the edge of
transcendence. If there is a heaven it must sound like this...

....only a man who suffered so greatly can know what true beauty is.
RIP Chopin.

If you're going to met your end it should be at least to a piece that
is truly timeless -- not some reefer+jack induced rockabilly ballad!

 

[Red John]

Free Bird! hmm, I would have chosen Chopin's nocturne 48-1 or 72-1 if
i was feeling rather melancholy at the moment. Then there is always
the funeral march if you really want to lay it on thick. However the
march does have a rather lengthy "hopeful" section that may make you
give second thoughts. Or perhaps the Berceuse in D-flat Major as a
final glorious celebration of life as one journeys beyond the edge of
transcendence. If there is a heaven it must sound like this...

   

...only a man who suffered so greatly can know what true beauty is.
RIP Chopin.

If you're going to met your end it should be at least to a piece that
is truly timeless -- not some reefer+jack induced rockabilly ballad!

Go away. You are easily one of the worst (and definitely most
annoying) person I've encountered in person or online, which is saying
something because I used to frequent 4chan.

 

[Robert]

Yes. IDLE is first and foremost a tool to get work done. However we
should not ignore the fact that IDLE could also be a great learning
resource for Tkinter GUI's and other subjects. Why not clean up the
code base? We could start small. First, move the custom widgets like
textView, Tabbedpages, FindDialog, ReplaceDialog, and TreeWidget into
the lib-tk for others to use more freely. Then we can modify the
"event robbers" CallTips, ParenMatch, and ColorDelegator. Just small
steps Kevin. It all starts with babysteps. At least we would be doing
something. Currently we are sitting around waiting for a miracle to
happen, and problems are solved by methods, not miracles!

Well some changes and improvements can be made to the UI as well.

Fork it and do it!

 

[rantingrick]

Go away. You are easily one of the worst (and definitely most
annoying) person I've encountered in person or online, which is saying
something because I used to frequent 4chan.

Hmm, that coming from someone who has two posts in this group. And the
last he posted was a year ago! Alright, let me add you to the proper
category...

py> troll_group.append("Red John")

 

[Cousin Stanley]

Terry (or anyone) can you give some link to info on "hg"
so i can study up on this topic ?

http://mercurial.selenic.com/

 

[David Hutto]

In the grand scope of things...you're all boring.

 

[Terry Reedy]

Well the best attribute of IDLE is backward compatibility -- there is
none to worry about. IDLE is not a module with an interface, it's just
a tool. So we could change anything we want without worry of causing
code breakage. There is not good reason NOT to fix IDLE.

That is similar to my view. Of course, there will be an tracker issue
and list discussion for any major change. I have even thought it should
perhaps be moved to the Tools/ directory, but installation of that is
optional. Google codesearch can be used to see what, if anything, anyone
imports from idlelib.

Agreed. Terry (or anyone) can you give some link to info on "hg" so i
can study up on this topic? Thanks

Joel Spolsky's tutorial is highly regarded as an easier intro than the
reference manual. I am about to reread it myself.
http://hginit.com/

 

[John Nagle]

It certainly would be interesting to see a fresh approach to IDLE...

The future of "playing with Python" is probably Python in a browser
window, of which there are several implementations. If you're doing
anything serious, you're using a programmer's editor or an IDE.
IDLE lives in a narrowing niche between those two points. Maybe
it should be killed off.

John Nagle

 

[rantingrick]

The future of "playing with Python" is probably Python in a browser
window, of which there are several implementations.

Hello John,

I found skulpt which looks rather interesting.

http://www.skulpt.org/

Why do we not have a version of this at python.org so people can get a
feel for python right away. Ruby has that "Learn Ruby in 20 Minutes"
thing and so should we.

Do you have any links to projects such as this one that you like to
share, John?

 

[Corey Richardson]

Hello John,

I found skulpt which looks rather interesting.

http://www.skulpt.org/

Why do we not have a version of this at python.org so people can get a
feel for python right away. Ruby has that "Learn Ruby in 20 Minutes"
thing and so should we.

Do you have any links to projects such as this one that you like to
share, John?

http://people.csail.mit.edu/pgbovine/python/

Not quite an interpreter, and certainly has its limits, for example, it
will only let you run so many steps before not letting you go on. I
think it's a decent learning tool, but the visualisation is what makes
it shine, IMO. That version uses python 2.5, there is also a version
that uses python 3.1:

http://netserv.ict.ru.ac.za/python3_viz/

 

[AD.]

Well your statment completely ignores the silent majority. Are you
telling me that this sloth of trolls, minions, and flamers that have
so far replied are represetative of this fine community.

As a member of this silent majority - we care less about IDLEs code
quality than all the others that did actually care enough to even
reply to you.

Now stop your annoying trolling and either start working on your IDLE
fork or shut up. Nobody else who agrees with you (there might be
someone out there) has been ever been motivated enough to initiate
this work by themselves, so unless YOU start it - it probably is never
going to happen.

Once it is underway you might attract some other people interested in
helping to refactor or recode IDLE - but you won't know that unless
you start work on it.

But I think we all know exactly what you are actually going to keep
doing though.