IronRuby...will it be like J++?

[Thufir]

Could it be that Microsoft won't fully implement the language
specifications, a la the J++ versus Java scenario?

What are some potential issues down the road? It seems that the license
is BSD-like, which sounds good, surprisingly open for Microsoft.

It would be neat to develop a script in Linux which runs fine in
IronRuby, but that sounds too good to be true



-Thufir

 

[Phil]

-----Original Message-----
From: news [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Thufir
Sent: Montag, 22. Oktober 2007 06:12
To: ruby-talk ML
Subject: IronRuby...will it be like J++?
=20
Could it be that Microsoft won't fully implement the language
specifications, a la the J++ versus Java scenario?

I doubt, that Matz will sue Microsoft, like Sun did with MS (that's why =
J++/J# is stuck on Java 1.2, IIRC).

What are some potential issues down the road? It seems that the
license
is BSD-like, which sounds good, surprisingly open for Microsoft.

Probably the same, as with using Java as a language (or writing =
additional interpreters/VMs for Ruby): fragmentation of resources. Bu =
that remains to be seen.

Given, that the MSPL is the old BSD license (which included an =
attribution clause, also), IronRuby could be forked, if MS started to =
misbehave.

It would be neat to develop a script in Linux which runs fine in
IronRuby, but that sounds too good to be true

As it is with Windows or Java, or the different UNIX-flavors.

 

[James Britt]

-----Original Message-----
From: news [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Thufir
Sent: Montag, 22. Oktober 2007 06:12
To: ruby-talk ML
Subject: IronRuby...will it be like J++?

Could it be that Microsoft won't fully implement the language
specifications, a la the J++ versus Java scenario?

There is no Ruby spec, other than than the C version itself.


But you (and everyone else) can help change that:


http://spec.ruby-doc.org

 

[Clifford Heath]

Could it be that Microsoft won't fully implement the language
specifications, a la the J++ versus Java scenario?

They have no need to do that.

What are some potential issues down the road?

The issue is that many Ruby programs will be built that rely on
(i.e. benefit from) using facilities only available on MS platforms.
That's good if you need those programs, but the rest of us won't be
able to run them. The sheer size of the MS installed base means that
over time, there'll be no certainty for anyone new to Ruby about how
to find a program they can use. Almost all cross-platform Ruby program
will spawn MS-specific forks, and the community will divide into those
whose programs work on Microsoft and those who don't.

Classic divide and conquer, combined with a swamping strategy,
regardless of licensing issues. Divide the community and make the
smaller group irrelevant.

Clifford Heath.

 

[Michael T. Richter]

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=20
They have no need to do that.
=20
=20
The issue is that many Ruby programs will be built that rely on
(i.e. benefit from) using facilities only available on MS platforms.
That's good if you need those programs, but the rest of us won't be
able to run them. The sheer size of the MS installed base means that
over time, there'll be no certainty for anyone new to Ruby about how
to find a program they can use. Almost all cross-platform Ruby program
will spawn MS-specific forks, and the community will divide into those
whose programs work on Microsoft and those who don't.
=20
Classic divide and conquer, combined with a swamping strategy,
regardless of licensing issues. Divide the community and make the
smaller group irrelevant.

Yeah. Because that worked really well for them with Java.

--=20
Michael T. Richter <[email protected]> (GoogleTalk:
(e-mail address removed))
Never, ever, ever let systems-level engineers do human interaction
design unless they have displayed a proven secondary talent in that
area. Their opinion of what represents good human-computer interaction
tends to be a bit off-track. (Bruce Tognazzini)

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On Mon, 2007-22-10 at 19:05 +0900, Clifford Heath wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE>
<PRE>
<FONT COLOR=3D"#000000">Thufir wrote:</FONT>
<FONT COLOR=3D"#000000">&gt; Could it be that Microsoft won't fully impleme=
nt the language </FONT>
<FONT COLOR=3D"#000000">&gt; specifications, a la the J++ versus Java scena=
rio?</FONT>

<FONT COLOR=3D"#000000">They have no need to do that.</FONT>

<FONT COLOR=3D"#000000">&gt; What are some potential issues down the road?<=
/FONT>

<FONT COLOR=3D"#000000">The issue is that many Ruby programs will be built =
that rely on</FONT>
<FONT COLOR=3D"#000000">(i.e. benefit from) using facilities only available=
on MS platforms.</FONT>
<FONT COLOR=3D"#000000">That's good if you need those programs, but the res=
t of us won't be</FONT>
<FONT COLOR=3D"#000000">able to run them. The sheer size of the MS installe=
d base means that</FONT>
<FONT COLOR=3D"#000000">over time, there'll be no certainty for anyone new =
to Ruby about how</FONT>
<FONT COLOR=3D"#000000">to find a program they can use. Almost all cross-pl=
atform Ruby program</FONT>
<FONT COLOR=3D"#000000">will spawn MS-specific forks, and the community wil=
l divide into those</FONT>
<FONT COLOR=3D"#000000">whose programs work on Microsoft and those who don'=
t.</FONT>

<FONT COLOR=3D"#000000">Classic divide and conquer, combined with a swampin=
g strategy,</FONT>
<FONT COLOR=3D"#000000">regardless of licensing issues. Divide the communit=
y and make the</FONT>
<FONT COLOR=3D"#000000">smaller group irrelevant.</FONT>
</PRE>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR>
Yeah.&nbsp; Because that worked really well for them with Java.<BR>
<BR>
<TABLE CELLSPACING=3D"0" CELLPADDING=3D"0" WIDTH=3D"100%">
<TR>
<TD>
-- <BR>
<B>Michael T. Richter</B> &lt;<A HREF=3D"mailto:[email protected]">ttmri=
(e-mail address removed)</A>&gt; (<B>GoogleTalk:</B> (e-mail address removed))<BR>
<I>Never, ever, ever let systems-level engineers do human interaction desig=
n unless they have displayed a proven secondary talent in that area. Their =
opinion of what represents good human-computer interaction tends to be a bi=
t off-track. (Bruce Tognazzini)</I>
</TD>
</TR>
</TABLE>
</BODY>
</HTML>

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[Clifford Heath]

Yeah. Because that worked really well for them with Java.

It did on the desktop, where their installed base and revenue
stream is.

 

[Michael T. Richter]

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=20
It did on the desktop, where their installed base and revenue
stream is.

What worked better for them there is that Java still basically sucks for
full-fledged applications even after all this time. Every time I fire
up a Java app I go out, make myself a fresh cup of tea, check on my
(snail)mail and just basically slack off for a while. When I get back
the app *MAY* have started. Unless that App is Eclipse in which case it
will likely have crashed. Failing that I've got a few more minutes of
waiting before it starts.

--=20
Michael T. Richter <[email protected]> (GoogleTalk:
(e-mail address removed))
All really first class designers are both artists, engineers, and men of
a powerful and intolerant temper, quick to resist the least modification
of the plans, energetic in fighting the least infringement upon what
they regard as their own sphere of action. (Nevil Shute)

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On Mon, 2007-22-10 at 20:00 +0900, Clifford Heath wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE>
<PRE>
<FONT COLOR=3D"#000000">Michael T. Richter wrote:</FONT>
<FONT COLOR=3D"#000000">&gt; Yeah. Because that worked really well for the=
m with Java.</FONT>

<FONT COLOR=3D"#000000">It did on the desktop, where their installed base a=
nd revenue</FONT>
<FONT COLOR=3D"#000000">stream is.</FONT>
</PRE>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
<PRE>

</PRE>
What worked better for them there is that Java still basically sucks for fu=
ll-fledged applications even after all this time.&nbsp; Every time I fire u=
p a Java app I go out, make myself a fresh cup of tea, check on my (snail)m=
ail and just basically slack off for a while.&nbsp; When I get back the app=
*MAY* have started.&nbsp; Unless that App is Eclipse in which case it will=
likely have crashed.&nbsp; Failing that I've got a few more minutes of wai=
ting before it starts.<BR>
<BR>
<TABLE CELLSPACING=3D"0" CELLPADDING=3D"0" WIDTH=3D"100%">
<TR>
<TD>
-- <BR>
<B>Michael T. Richter</B> &lt;<A HREF=3D"mailto:[email protected]">ttmri=
(e-mail address removed)</A>&gt; (<B>GoogleTalk:</B> (e-mail address removed))<BR>
<I>All really first class designers are both artists, engineers, and men of=
a powerful and intolerant temper, quick to resist the least modification o=
f the plans, energetic in fighting the least infringement upon what they re=
gard as their own sphere of action. (Nevil Shute)</I>
</TD>
</TR>
</TABLE>
</BODY>
</HTML>

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[Phlip]

What worked better for them there is that Java still basically sucks for

full-fledged applications even after all this time. Every time I fire
up a Java app I go out, make myself a fresh cup of tea, check on my
(snail)mail and just basically slack off for a while. When I get back
the app *MAY* have started. Unless that App is Eclipse in which case it
will likely have crashed. Failing that I've got a few more minutes of
waiting before it starts.

Next, after MS took the bait Sun trotted out for them, and got sued, they
"invented" C#. Despite clueless bookstore workers shelve this mixed in with
C and C++, C# is really Java with some of the keywords
searched-and-replaced. And the license terms rewritten.

 

[Phil]

-----Original Message-----
From: Clifford Heath [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Montag, 22. Oktober 2007 12:05
To: ruby-talk ML
Subject: Re: IronRuby...will it be like J++?

Classic divide and conquer, combined with a swamping strategy,
regardless of licensing issues. Divide the community and make the
smaller group irrelevant.

First used by Sun in the Ruby space, since they took JRuby under their wing.

 

[Alex Young]

They have no need to do that.


The issue is that many Ruby programs will be built that rely on
(i.e. benefit from) using facilities only available on MS platforms.
That's good if you need those programs, but the rest of us won't be
able to run them. The sheer size of the MS installed base means that
over time, there'll be no certainty for anyone new to Ruby about how
to find a program they can use. Almost all cross-platform Ruby program
will spawn MS-specific forks, and the community will divide into those
whose programs work on Microsoft and those who don't.

Note how this specifically hasn't happened with IronPython. At least,
not to my knowledge. And that's less open than IronRuby.

 

[James Britt]

What worked better for them there is that Java still basically sucks for
full-fledged applications even after all this time. Every time I fire
up a Java app I go out, make myself a fresh cup of tea, check on my
(snail)mail and just basically slack off for a while. When I get back
the app *MAY* have started. Unless that App is Eclipse in which case it
will likely have crashed. Failing that I've got a few more minutes of
waiting before it starts.

A few points:

I've met the core people working on IronRuby and JRuby. They are good
people with integrity. While there are few guarantees in life, and
especially so in software development, I believe the projects are in
good hands and are not part of any nefarious scheme to fragment the user
base.

I've worked with JRuby desktop apps. Speed is not an issue. I, too,
used to dread the JVM start-up time, but it has become a non-issue.
Better JVMs and faster machines has taken care of that. YMMV and all that.

Finally, bickering on ruby-talk accomplishes very little. Writing to
Sun and Microsoft would be more useful.

 

[Robert Dober]

-----Original Message-----
From: Clifford Heath [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Montag, 22. Oktober 2007 12:05
To: ruby-talk ML
Subject: Re: IronRuby...will it be like J++?

Classic divide and conquer, combined with a swamping strategy,
regardless of licensing issues. Divide the community and make the
smaller group irrelevant.

First used by Sun in the Ruby space, since they took JRuby under their wing.

Now I am a Java hater, but even though I have to take defense for
these guys, they are great, nice people and I am not at all afraid of
them. Ok the chose Java instead of Smalltalk but for the rest they are
ok .
Yup I still believe that Java is not a better choice, technically, but
I might *easily be wrong*, right Charles?

Robert

 

[Charles Oliver Nutter]

-----Original Message-----
From: Clifford Heath [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Montag, 22. Oktober 2007 12:05
To: ruby-talk ML
Subject: Re: IronRuby...will it be like J++?

Classic divide and conquer, combined with a swamping strategy,
regardless of licensing issues. Divide the community and make the
smaller group irrelevant.

First used by Sun in the Ruby space, since they took JRuby under their wing.

Now I am a Java hater, but even though I have to take defense for
these guys, they are great, nice people and I am not at all afraid of
them. Ok the chose Java instead of Smalltalk but for the rest they are
ok .
Yup I still believe that Java is not a better choice, technically, but
I might *easily be wrong*, right Charles?

Time will tell

- Charlie

 

[Charles Oliver Nutter]

Finally, bickering on ruby-talk accomplishes very little. Writing to
Sun and Microsoft would be more useful.

And for Sun, you can write me directly. I have no evil plans or pet cat
(ok, I do have a cat, but I don't think the *cat* is evil anyway).

- Charlie

 

[Rick DeNatale]

And for Sun, you can write me directly. I have no evil plans or pet cat
(ok, I do have a cat, but I don't think the *cat* is evil anyway).

Ahh, but there's the rub! You never KNOW about cats, do you? <G>

 

[John Joyce]

Ahh, but there's the rub! You never KNOW about cats, do you? <G>

--
Rick DeNatale

My blog on Ruby
http://talklikeaduck.denhaven2.com/

require the cat singleton module

 

[Thufir]

And for Sun, you can write me directly. I have no evil plans or pet cat
(ok, I do have a cat, but I don't think the *cat* is evil anyway).

Shouldn't the emphasis have been on "think" instead of "cat"?


-Thufir

 

[Charles Oliver Nutter]

Shouldn't the emphasis have been on "think" instead of "cat"?

Caught!

- Charlie

 

[Charles Oliver Nutter]

BTW, I'm fairly certain that you can't do this in Java today, but I could be mistaken.

Both are possible, along with other weird and wild things, through many
third-party libraries for Java and non-standard JVM extensions. The
difference is that they're not baked into standard Java, so they're
generally not thought of as features of Java. C# and .NET in general
include a lot of things as standard that are generally relegated to
third-party libraries (often several incarnations) on the Java platform.

Of course, everything's possible everywhere; it's just a matter of how
easy it is to get at.

- Charlie

 

[Charles Oliver Nutter]

(e-mail address removed) [mailto:[email protected]]:

could be mistaken.

Both are possible, along with other weird and wild things, through many
third-party libraries for Java and non-standard JVM extensions. The
difference is that they're not baked into standard Java, so they're
generally not thought of as features of Java. C# and .NET in general
include a lot of things as standard that are generally relegated to
third-party libraries (often several incarnations) on the Java
platform.

Wow. I had no idea that Java now has libraries that expose a generic query syntax that can be used over arbitrary data sources (in memory, database, web service data sources via custom providers). Do you support dynamic Intellisense for the data sources in the IDEs as well? Do you have a pointer to this?

Nothing so unified; there's a "linq-like" library that either
preprocesses Java source or post-processes bytecode (I don't recall
which) to allow embedding expression languages into the code. I believe
it was posted on LtU a couple months back. I don't know if any more has
been done with it, like creating APIs/interface data sources can
implement to make use of a generalized query language.

And again, it's not that "Java" has these libraries...it's that just
about anything you want is "out there" somewhere in the massive number
of public/open/community projects. It may or may not be getting uptake
because it may or may not be seen as generally useful enough for people
to latch on.

- Charlie