IronRuby...will it be like J++?

Discussion in 'Ruby' started by Thufir, Oct 22, 2007.

  1. Thufir

    Thufir Guest

    Could it be that Microsoft won't fully implement the language
    specifications, a la the J++ versus Java scenario?

    What are some potential issues down the road? It seems that the license
    is BSD-like, which sounds good, surprisingly open for Microsoft.

    It would be neat to develop a script in Linux which runs fine in
    IronRuby, but that sounds too good to be true :(



    -Thufir
    Thufir, Oct 22, 2007
    #1
    1. Advertising

  2. Thufir

    Phil Guest


    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: news [mailto:] On Behalf Of Thufir
    > Sent: Montag, 22. Oktober 2007 06:12
    > To: ruby-talk ML
    > Subject: IronRuby...will it be like J++?
    >=20
    > Could it be that Microsoft won't fully implement the language
    > specifications, a la the J++ versus Java scenario?


    I doubt, that Matz will sue Microsoft, like Sun did with MS (that's why =
    J++/J# is stuck on Java 1.2, IIRC).

    > What are some potential issues down the road? It seems that the
    > license
    > is BSD-like, which sounds good, surprisingly open for Microsoft.


    Probably the same, as with using Java as a language (or writing =
    additional interpreters/VMs for Ruby): fragmentation of resources. Bu =
    that remains to be seen.

    Given, that the MSPL is the old BSD license (which included an =
    attribution clause, also), IronRuby could be forked, if MS started to =
    misbehave.

    > It would be neat to develop a script in Linux which runs fine in
    > IronRuby, but that sounds too good to be true :(


    As it is with Windows or Java, or the different UNIX-flavors.

    --
    Phillip Gawlowski
    Phil, Oct 22, 2007
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. Thufir

    James Britt Guest

    Phil wrote:
    >
    >> -----Original Message-----
    >> From: news [mailto:] On Behalf Of Thufir
    >> Sent: Montag, 22. Oktober 2007 06:12
    >> To: ruby-talk ML
    >> Subject: IronRuby...will it be like J++?
    >>
    >> Could it be that Microsoft won't fully implement the language
    >> specifications, a la the J++ versus Java scenario?

    >


    There is no Ruby spec, other than than the C version itself.


    But you (and everyone else) can help change that:


    http://spec.ruby-doc.org




    --
    James Britt

    "Take eloquence and wring its neck."
    - Paul Verlaine
    James Britt, Oct 22, 2007
    #3
  4. Thufir wrote:
    > Could it be that Microsoft won't fully implement the language
    > specifications, a la the J++ versus Java scenario?


    They have no need to do that.

    > What are some potential issues down the road?


    The issue is that many Ruby programs will be built that rely on
    (i.e. benefit from) using facilities only available on MS platforms.
    That's good if you need those programs, but the rest of us won't be
    able to run them. The sheer size of the MS installed base means that
    over time, there'll be no certainty for anyone new to Ruby about how
    to find a program they can use. Almost all cross-platform Ruby program
    will spawn MS-specific forks, and the community will divide into those
    whose programs work on Microsoft and those who don't.

    Classic divide and conquer, combined with a swamping strategy,
    regardless of licensing issues. Divide the community and make the
    smaller group irrelevant.

    Clifford Heath.
    Clifford Heath, Oct 22, 2007
    #4
  5. --=-FmaSx9fCO7BCKUK37y/n
    Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=-/mc3+Ezwfeprk3iPyG+k"


    --=-/mc3+Ezwfeprk3iPyG+k
    Content-Type: text/plain
    Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

    On Mon, 2007-22-10 at 19:05 +0900, Clifford Heath wrote:

    > Thufir wrote:
    > > Could it be that Microsoft won't fully implement the language=20
    > > specifications, a la the J++ versus Java scenario?

    >=20
    > They have no need to do that.
    >=20
    > > What are some potential issues down the road?

    >=20
    > The issue is that many Ruby programs will be built that rely on
    > (i.e. benefit from) using facilities only available on MS platforms.
    > That's good if you need those programs, but the rest of us won't be
    > able to run them. The sheer size of the MS installed base means that
    > over time, there'll be no certainty for anyone new to Ruby about how
    > to find a program they can use. Almost all cross-platform Ruby program
    > will spawn MS-specific forks, and the community will divide into those
    > whose programs work on Microsoft and those who don't.
    >=20
    > Classic divide and conquer, combined with a swamping strategy,
    > regardless of licensing issues. Divide the community and make the
    > smaller group irrelevant.



    Yeah. Because that worked really well for them with Java.

    --=20
    Michael T. Richter <> (GoogleTalk:
    )
    Never, ever, ever let systems-level engineers do human interaction
    design unless they have displayed a proven secondary talent in that
    area. Their opinion of what represents good human-computer interaction
    tends to be a bit off-track. (Bruce Tognazzini)

    --=-/mc3+Ezwfeprk3iPyG+k
    Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
    Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

    <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 TRANSITIONAL//EN">
    <HTML>
    <HEAD>
    <META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; CHARSET=3DUTF-8">
    <META NAME=3D"GENERATOR" CONTENT=3D"GtkHTML/3.12.1">
    </HEAD>
    <BODY>
    On Mon, 2007-22-10 at 19:05 +0900, Clifford Heath wrote:
    <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE>
    <PRE>
    <FONT COLOR=3D"#000000">Thufir wrote:</FONT>
    <FONT COLOR=3D"#000000">&gt; Could it be that Microsoft won't fully impleme=
    nt the language </FONT>
    <FONT COLOR=3D"#000000">&gt; specifications, a la the J++ versus Java scena=
    rio?</FONT>

    <FONT COLOR=3D"#000000">They have no need to do that.</FONT>

    <FONT COLOR=3D"#000000">&gt; What are some potential issues down the road?<=
    /FONT>

    <FONT COLOR=3D"#000000">The issue is that many Ruby programs will be built =
    that rely on</FONT>
    <FONT COLOR=3D"#000000">(i.e. benefit from) using facilities only available=
    on MS platforms.</FONT>
    <FONT COLOR=3D"#000000">That's good if you need those programs, but the res=
    t of us won't be</FONT>
    <FONT COLOR=3D"#000000">able to run them. The sheer size of the MS installe=
    d base means that</FONT>
    <FONT COLOR=3D"#000000">over time, there'll be no certainty for anyone new =
    to Ruby about how</FONT>
    <FONT COLOR=3D"#000000">to find a program they can use. Almost all cross-pl=
    atform Ruby program</FONT>
    <FONT COLOR=3D"#000000">will spawn MS-specific forks, and the community wil=
    l divide into those</FONT>
    <FONT COLOR=3D"#000000">whose programs work on Microsoft and those who don'=
    t.</FONT>

    <FONT COLOR=3D"#000000">Classic divide and conquer, combined with a swampin=
    g strategy,</FONT>
    <FONT COLOR=3D"#000000">regardless of licensing issues. Divide the communit=
    y and make the</FONT>
    <FONT COLOR=3D"#000000">smaller group irrelevant.</FONT>
    </PRE>
    </BLOCKQUOTE>
    <BR>
    Yeah.&nbsp; Because that worked really well for them with Java.<BR>
    <BR>
    <TABLE CELLSPACING=3D"0" CELLPADDING=3D"0" WIDTH=3D"100%">
    <TR>
    <TD>
    -- <BR>
    <B>Michael T. Richter</B> &lt;<A HREF=3D"mailto:">ttmri=
    </A>&gt; (<B>GoogleTalk:</B> )<BR>
    <I>Never, ever, ever let systems-level engineers do human interaction desig=
    n unless they have displayed a proven secondary talent in that area. Their =
    opinion of what represents good human-computer interaction tends to be a bi=
    t off-track. (Bruce Tognazzini)</I>
    </TD>
    </TR>
    </TABLE>
    </BODY>
    </HTML>

    --=-/mc3+Ezwfeprk3iPyG+k--

    --=-FmaSx9fCO7BCKUK37y/n
    Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc
    Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part

    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
    Version: GnuPG v1.4.3 (GNU/Linux)

    iD8DBQBHHHtqLqyWkKVQ54QRAtSYAJ4xTjPbnKg+GJNhHPlDYUzsAcQjSwCfXRYB
    5WjZDnjOUZAagAQ9s8nTPOA=
    =w9oQ
    -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

    --=-FmaSx9fCO7BCKUK37y/n--
    Michael T. Richter, Oct 22, 2007
    #5
  6. Michael T. Richter wrote:
    > Yeah. Because that worked really well for them with Java.


    It did on the desktop, where their installed base and revenue
    stream is.
    Clifford Heath, Oct 22, 2007
    #6
  7. --=-TDOMIl1cssHFlQ2ojxCS
    Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=-v8ItxsBm+nCZBY09mPa2"


    --=-v8ItxsBm+nCZBY09mPa2
    Content-Type: text/plain
    Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

    On Mon, 2007-22-10 at 20:00 +0900, Clifford Heath wrote:

    > Michael T. Richter wrote:
    > > Yeah. Because that worked really well for them with Java.

    >=20
    > It did on the desktop, where their installed base and revenue
    > stream is.




    What worked better for them there is that Java still basically sucks for
    full-fledged applications even after all this time. Every time I fire
    up a Java app I go out, make myself a fresh cup of tea, check on my
    (snail)mail and just basically slack off for a while. When I get back
    the app *MAY* have started. Unless that App is Eclipse in which case it
    will likely have crashed. Failing that I've got a few more minutes of
    waiting before it starts.

    --=20
    Michael T. Richter <> (GoogleTalk:
    )
    All really first class designers are both artists, engineers, and men of
    a powerful and intolerant temper, quick to resist the least modification
    of the plans, energetic in fighting the least infringement upon what
    they regard as their own sphere of action. (Nevil Shute)

    --=-v8ItxsBm+nCZBY09mPa2
    Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
    Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

    <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 TRANSITIONAL//EN">
    <HTML>
    <HEAD>
    <META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; CHARSET=3DUTF-8">
    <META NAME=3D"GENERATOR" CONTENT=3D"GtkHTML/3.12.1">
    </HEAD>
    <BODY>
    On Mon, 2007-22-10 at 20:00 +0900, Clifford Heath wrote:
    <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE>
    <PRE>
    <FONT COLOR=3D"#000000">Michael T. Richter wrote:</FONT>
    <FONT COLOR=3D"#000000">&gt; Yeah. Because that worked really well for the=
    m with Java.</FONT>

    <FONT COLOR=3D"#000000">It did on the desktop, where their installed base a=
    nd revenue</FONT>
    <FONT COLOR=3D"#000000">stream is.</FONT>
    </PRE>
    </BLOCKQUOTE>
    <PRE>

    </PRE>
    What worked better for them there is that Java still basically sucks for fu=
    ll-fledged applications even after all this time.&nbsp; Every time I fire u=
    p a Java app I go out, make myself a fresh cup of tea, check on my (snail)m=
    ail and just basically slack off for a while.&nbsp; When I get back the app=
    *MAY* have started.&nbsp; Unless that App is Eclipse in which case it will=
    likely have crashed.&nbsp; Failing that I've got a few more minutes of wai=
    ting before it starts.<BR>
    <BR>
    <TABLE CELLSPACING=3D"0" CELLPADDING=3D"0" WIDTH=3D"100%">
    <TR>
    <TD>
    -- <BR>
    <B>Michael T. Richter</B> &lt;<A HREF=3D"mailto:">ttmri=
    </A>&gt; (<B>GoogleTalk:</B> )<BR>
    <I>All really first class designers are both artists, engineers, and men of=
    a powerful and intolerant temper, quick to resist the least modification o=
    f the plans, energetic in fighting the least infringement upon what they re=
    gard as their own sphere of action. (Nevil Shute)</I>
    </TD>
    </TR>
    </TABLE>
    </BODY>
    </HTML>

    --=-v8ItxsBm+nCZBY09mPa2--

    --=-TDOMIl1cssHFlQ2ojxCS
    Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc
    Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part

    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
    Version: GnuPG v1.4.3 (GNU/Linux)

    iD8DBQBHHIZNLqyWkKVQ54QRAs6FAJ9Gls18uYlrkbaBEljdSWEsnyN9XQCfZG2q
    MKAJ4XTsn5RbbuuGqJRVzLk=
    =sIMN
    -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

    --=-TDOMIl1cssHFlQ2ojxCS--
    Michael T. Richter, Oct 22, 2007
    #7
  8. Thufir

    Phlip Guest

    Michael T. Richter wrote:

    > What worked better for them there is that Java still basically sucks for

    full-fledged applications even after all this time. Every time I fire
    up a Java app I go out, make myself a fresh cup of tea, check on my
    (snail)mail and just basically slack off for a while. When I get back
    the app *MAY* have started. Unless that App is Eclipse in which case it
    will likely have crashed. Failing that I've got a few more minutes of
    waiting before it starts.

    Next, after MS took the bait Sun trotted out for them, and got sued, they
    "invented" C#. Despite clueless bookstore workers shelve this mixed in with
    C and C++, C# is really Java with some of the keywords
    searched-and-replaced. And the license terms rewritten.

    --
    Phlip
    Phlip, Oct 22, 2007
    #8
  9. Thufir

    Phil Guest


    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: Clifford Heath [mailto:]
    > Sent: Montag, 22. Oktober 2007 12:05
    > To: ruby-talk ML
    > Subject: Re: IronRuby...will it be like J++?
    >
    > Classic divide and conquer, combined with a swamping strategy,
    > regardless of licensing issues. Divide the community and make the
    > smaller group irrelevant.


    First used by Sun in the Ruby space, since they took JRuby under their wing.

    --
    Phillip Gawlowski
    Phil, Oct 22, 2007
    #9
  10. Thufir

    Alex Young Guest

    Clifford Heath wrote:
    > Thufir wrote:
    >> Could it be that Microsoft won't fully implement the language
    >> specifications, a la the J++ versus Java scenario?

    >
    > They have no need to do that.
    >
    >> What are some potential issues down the road?

    >
    > The issue is that many Ruby programs will be built that rely on
    > (i.e. benefit from) using facilities only available on MS platforms.
    > That's good if you need those programs, but the rest of us won't be
    > able to run them. The sheer size of the MS installed base means that
    > over time, there'll be no certainty for anyone new to Ruby about how
    > to find a program they can use. Almost all cross-platform Ruby program
    > will spawn MS-specific forks, and the community will divide into those
    > whose programs work on Microsoft and those who don't.


    Note how this specifically hasn't happened with IronPython. At least,
    not to my knowledge. And that's less open than IronRuby.


    --
    Alex
    Alex Young, Oct 22, 2007
    #10
  11. Thufir

    James Britt Guest

    Michael T. Richter wrote:
    > On Mon, 2007-22-10 at 20:00 +0900, Clifford Heath wrote:
    >
    >> Michael T. Richter wrote:
    >>> Yeah. Because that worked really well for them with Java.

    >> It did on the desktop, where their installed base and revenue
    >> stream is.

    >
    >
    >
    > What worked better for them there is that Java still basically sucks for
    > full-fledged applications even after all this time. Every time I fire
    > up a Java app I go out, make myself a fresh cup of tea, check on my
    > (snail)mail and just basically slack off for a while. When I get back
    > the app *MAY* have started. Unless that App is Eclipse in which case it
    > will likely have crashed. Failing that I've got a few more minutes of
    > waiting before it starts.
    >



    A few points:

    I've met the core people working on IronRuby and JRuby. They are good
    people with integrity. While there are few guarantees in life, and
    especially so in software development, I believe the projects are in
    good hands and are not part of any nefarious scheme to fragment the user
    base.

    I've worked with JRuby desktop apps. Speed is not an issue. I, too,
    used to dread the JVM start-up time, but it has become a non-issue.
    Better JVMs and faster machines has taken care of that. YMMV and all that.

    Finally, bickering on ruby-talk accomplishes very little. Writing to
    Sun and Microsoft would be more useful.


    --
    James Britt

    "You harmonize; then you customize."
    - Wilson Pickett
    James Britt, Oct 22, 2007
    #11
  12. Thufir

    Robert Dober Guest

    On 10/22/07, Phil <> wrote:
    >
    >
    > > -----Original Message-----
    > > From: Clifford Heath [mailto:]
    > > Sent: Montag, 22. Oktober 2007 12:05
    > > To: ruby-talk ML
    > > Subject: Re: IronRuby...will it be like J++?
    > >
    > > Classic divide and conquer, combined with a swamping strategy,
    > > regardless of licensing issues. Divide the community and make the
    > > smaller group irrelevant.

    >
    > First used by Sun in the Ruby space, since they took JRuby under their wing.

    Now I am a Java hater, but even though I have to take defense for
    these guys, they are great, nice people and I am not at all afraid of
    them. Ok the chose Java instead of Smalltalk but for the rest they are
    ok ;).
    Yup I still believe that Java is not a better choice, technically, but
    I might *easily be wrong*, right Charles?

    Robert

    --
    what do I think about Ruby?
    http://ruby-smalltalk.blogspot.com/
    Robert Dober, Oct 22, 2007
    #12
  13. Robert Dober wrote:
    > On 10/22/07, Phil <> wrote:
    >>
    >>> -----Original Message-----
    >>> From: Clifford Heath [mailto:]
    >>> Sent: Montag, 22. Oktober 2007 12:05
    >>> To: ruby-talk ML
    >>> Subject: Re: IronRuby...will it be like J++?
    >>>
    >>> Classic divide and conquer, combined with a swamping strategy,
    >>> regardless of licensing issues. Divide the community and make the
    >>> smaller group irrelevant.

    >> First used by Sun in the Ruby space, since they took JRuby under their wing.

    > Now I am a Java hater, but even though I have to take defense for
    > these guys, they are great, nice people and I am not at all afraid of
    > them. Ok the chose Java instead of Smalltalk but for the rest they are
    > ok ;).
    > Yup I still believe that Java is not a better choice, technically, but
    > I might *easily be wrong*, right Charles?


    Time will tell :)

    - Charlie
    Charles Oliver Nutter, Oct 22, 2007
    #13
  14. James Britt wrote:
    > Finally, bickering on ruby-talk accomplishes very little. Writing to
    > Sun and Microsoft would be more useful.


    And for Sun, you can write me directly. I have no evil plans or pet cat
    (ok, I do have a cat, but I don't think the *cat* is evil anyway).

    - Charlie
    Charles Oliver Nutter, Oct 22, 2007
    #14
  15. On 10/22/07, Charles Oliver Nutter <> wrote:

    > And for Sun, you can write me directly. I have no evil plans or pet cat
    > (ok, I do have a cat, but I don't think the *cat* is evil anyway).


    Ahh, but there's the rub! You never KNOW about cats, do you? <G>

    --
    Rick DeNatale

    My blog on Ruby
    http://talklikeaduck.denhaven2.com/
    Rick DeNatale, Oct 22, 2007
    #15
  16. Thufir

    John Joyce Guest

    On Oct 22, 2007, at 1:54 PM, Rick DeNatale wrote:

    > On 10/22/07, Charles Oliver Nutter <> wrote:
    >
    >> And for Sun, you can write me directly. I have no evil plans or
    >> pet cat
    >> (ok, I do have a cat, but I don't think the *cat* is evil anyway).

    >
    > Ahh, but there's the rub! You never KNOW about cats, do you? <G>
    >
    > --
    > Rick DeNatale
    >
    > My blog on Ruby
    > http://talklikeaduck.denhaven2.com/
    >

    require the cat singleton module
    John Joyce, Oct 23, 2007
    #16
  17. Thufir

    Thufir Guest

    On Tue, 23 Oct 2007 01:31:23 +0900, Charles Oliver Nutter wrote:

    > And for Sun, you can write me directly. I have no evil plans or pet cat
    > (ok, I do have a cat, but I don't think the *cat* is evil anyway).


    Shouldn't the emphasis have been on "think" instead of "cat"?


    -Thufir
    Thufir, Oct 23, 2007
    #17
  18. Thufir wrote:
    > On Tue, 23 Oct 2007 01:31:23 +0900, Charles Oliver Nutter wrote:
    >
    >> And for Sun, you can write me directly. I have no evil plans or pet cat
    >> (ok, I do have a cat, but I don't think the *cat* is evil anyway).

    >
    > Shouldn't the emphasis have been on "think" instead of "cat"?


    Caught!

    - Charlie
    Charles Oliver Nutter, Oct 23, 2007
    #18
  19. Re: OT: Is C# just Java renamed? WAS: IronRuby...will it be like J++?

    John Lam (DLR) wrote:
    > BTW, I'm fairly certain that you can't do this in Java today, but I could be mistaken.


    Both are possible, along with other weird and wild things, through many
    third-party libraries for Java and non-standard JVM extensions. The
    difference is that they're not baked into standard Java, so they're
    generally not thought of as features of Java. C# and .NET in general
    include a lot of things as standard that are generally relegated to
    third-party libraries (often several incarnations) on the Java platform.

    Of course, everything's possible everywhere; it's just a matter of how
    easy it is to get at.

    - Charlie
    Charles Oliver Nutter, Oct 23, 2007
    #19
  20. Re: OT: Is C# just Java renamed? WAS: IronRuby...will it be like J++?

    John Lam (DLR) wrote:
    > [mailto:]:
    >
    >> John Lam (DLR) wrote:
    >>> BTW, I'm fairly certain that you can't do this in Java today, but I

    >> could be mistaken.
    >>
    >> Both are possible, along with other weird and wild things, through many
    >> third-party libraries for Java and non-standard JVM extensions. The
    >> difference is that they're not baked into standard Java, so they're
    >> generally not thought of as features of Java. C# and .NET in general
    >> include a lot of things as standard that are generally relegated to
    >> third-party libraries (often several incarnations) on the Java
    >> platform.

    >
    > Wow. I had no idea that Java now has libraries that expose a generic query syntax that can be used over arbitrary data sources (in memory, database, web service data sources via custom providers). Do you support dynamic Intellisense for the data sources in the IDEs as well? Do you have a pointer to this?


    Nothing so unified; there's a "linq-like" library that either
    preprocesses Java source or post-processes bytecode (I don't recall
    which) to allow embedding expression languages into the code. I believe
    it was posted on LtU a couple months back. I don't know if any more has
    been done with it, like creating APIs/interface data sources can
    implement to make use of a generalized query language.

    And again, it's not that "Java" has these libraries...it's that just
    about anything you want is "out there" somewhere in the massive number
    of public/open/community projects. It may or may not be getting uptake
    because it may or may not be seen as generally useful enough for people
    to latch on.

    - Charlie
    Charles Oliver Nutter, Oct 24, 2007
    #20
    1. Advertising

Want to reply to this thread or ask your own question?

It takes just 2 minutes to sign up (and it's free!). Just click the sign up button to choose a username and then you can ask your own questions on the forum.
Similar Threads
  1. Neil Hodgson
    Replies:
    8
    Views:
    386
    Michael Torrie
    Aug 10, 2010
  2. Tim Hunter

    Microsoft announces IronRuby

    Tim Hunter, Apr 30, 2007, in forum: Ruby
    Replies:
    5
    Views:
    111
    Charles Oliver Nutter
    May 1, 2007
  3. Lloyd Linklater

    IronRuby

    Lloyd Linklater, Sep 12, 2007, in forum: Ruby
    Replies:
    19
    Views:
    210
    Cody Skidmore
    Sep 29, 2007
  4. IronRuby

    Anyone interested In IronRuby

    IronRuby, Sep 27, 2007, in forum: Ruby
    Replies:
    15
    Views:
    188
    John Lam (DLR)
    Sep 29, 2007
  5. John Lam (DLR)

    Quick update on IronRuby status

    John Lam (DLR), Nov 9, 2007, in forum: Ruby
    Replies:
    0
    Views:
    84
    John Lam (DLR)
    Nov 9, 2007
Loading...

Share This Page