is laziness a programer's virtue?

Discussion in 'Java' started by Xah Lee, Apr 16, 2007.

  1. Xah Lee

    Xah Lee Guest

    2007-03-29

    Dear tech geekers,

    In a couple of posts in the past year i have crossed-posted (e.g.
    recently “What are OOP's Jargons and Complexitiesâ€, “is laziness a
    programer's virtue?â€, “On Java's Interface (the meaning of interface
    in computer programing)†), there are a some controversy, and lots of
    off-topic and careless follow ups.

    I think a few things today's tech geekers should remind themselves:

    • If you deem something off-topic to “your†newsgroup, and want to
    tech-geek by changing the “follow-up groupâ€, start with yourself.
    Please do not cross-post yourself, and tweak the follow-up, and
    proudly proclaim that you changed the follow-up as a benign gesture.

    • Please remind yourself what is on-topic and off-topic. Unless you
    are the auhority of a online forum, otherwise, Meta-talk, and
    policing, are off-topic in general, and only tends to worsen the
    forum's quality. This issue is cleared up in online communications as
    early as early 1990s.

    • The facility of cross-posting is a good thing as a progress of
    communication technology, and the action of cross-posting is a good
    thing with respect to communication. What the common tech-geekers's
    sensitivity to cross-posting are due to this collective's lack of
    understanding of social aspects of communication. Cross-posting isn't
    a problem. The problem is the power-struggling male nature and
    defensiveness in propergating the tongues of a tech geeker's own.

    Tech-geeker's behavior towards cross-posting over the years did
    nothing to enhance the content quality of newsgroups, but engendered
    among computing language factions incommunicado, and aided in the
    proliferation of unnecessary re-invention (e.g. the likes of Perl,
    PHP, Python, Ruby that are essentially the same) and stagnation (e.g.
    the lisp camp with their above-it attitude).

    If you are a programer of X and is learning Y or wondering about Y,
    please do cross-post it. If your article is relevant to X, Y, and Z,
    please cross post it. If you are really anti-cross-posting, please
    use a online forum that is more specialized with controlled
    communication, such as mailing lists, developer's blogs, and website-
    based forums.

    I hope that the computing newsgroups will revive to its ancient nature
    of verdant cross communication of quality content, as opposed to
    today's rampant messages focused on politics, mutual sneering, closed-
    mindedness, and careless postings.

    References:

    “Tech Geekers versus Spammersâ€
    http://xahlee.org/UnixResource_dir/writ/tech_geekers_vs_spammers.html

    Netiquette Guidelines, 1995, by S Hambridge. (RFC 1855)
    http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1855

    Xah

    ∑ http://xahlee.org/
     
    Xah Lee, Apr 16, 2007
    #1
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  2. Xah Lee

    D Herring Guest

    [OT] Re: is laziness a programer's virtue?

    Xah Lee wrote:
    > In a couple of posts in the past year i have crossed-posted (e.g.
    > recently “What are OOP's Jargons and Complexitiesâ€, “is laziness a
    > programer's virtue?â€, “On Java's Interface (the meaning of interface
    > in computer programing)†), there are a some controversy, and lots of
    > off-topic and careless follow ups.


    Please don't dismiss so many posts as being "off-topic and careless".

    > I think a few things today's tech geekers should remind themselves:
    >
    > • If you deem something off-topic to “your†newsgroup, and want to
    > tech-geek by changing the “follow-up groupâ€, start with yourself.
    > Please do not cross-post yourself, and tweak the follow-up, and
    > proudly proclaim that you changed the follow-up as a benign gesture.

    ....

    A few more points:
    - I know many geeks but not so many geekers...
    http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=geeker

    - Please topquote snippets from the threads about which you are commenting.

    - Please set your newsreader to prepend "Re: " or somesuch when replying
    to a toplevel post.

    - Please don't preach about "meta-talk and policing" in a post which is
    mostly meta-talk and preaching.

    Thanks,
    Daniel
     
    D Herring, Apr 16, 2007
    #2
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  3. "Xah Lee" <> writes:

    > ¥ Please remind yourself what is on-topic and off-topic. Unless you


    You, Sir, ARE off-topic. I suggest you make the experiment to post
    your drivel on your web site and let your fans come to you. Should be
    an eye opener, this experiment.

    Regards -- Markus
     
    Markus E Leypold, Apr 17, 2007
    #3
  4. Xah Lee

    Ingo Menger Guest

    On 16 Apr., 23:01, "Xah Lee" <> wrote:

    > If your article is relevant to X, Y, and Z,
    > please cross post it.


    Yeah right, and if it is not, don't post it at all. Your articles are
    nothing but a bunch of unfounded allegations, moralism and your
    personal notion of what alledgedly "hurts society". As such, they have
    no relevance at all in technical news groups.
     
    Ingo Menger, Apr 17, 2007
    #4
  5. Ingo Menger <> writes:

    > On 16 Apr., 23:01, "Xah Lee" <> wrote:
    >
    >> If your article is relevant to X, Y, and Z,
    >> please cross post it.

    >
    > Yeah right, and if it is not, don't post it at all. Your articles are
    > nothing but a bunch of unfounded allegations, moralism and your
    > personal notion of what alledgedly "hurts society". As such, they have
    > no relevance at all in technical news groups.


    But we already had of topic discussions in some of those groups
    (meandering into the non technical) that weren't stomped upon by the
    group's subscribers. The difference in my eyes is, that Xah is a
    troll. What makes Xah a troll is neither off-topic posts nor being
    incoherent -- its the attitude. He's broadcasting his drivel to a
    number of groups not with the intention to discuss (he hardly ever
    answers to answers to his posts), but solely with the intention to
    inform the world at large about his own magnificient thoughts. As also
    evidenced by reposting some of his stuff (as if he had a fan community
    or as if it were a FAQ) or posting stuff dated from 2002.

    Trying to correct Xah's behaviour is probably impossible. People who
    publish pictures of themselves as he does on the WWW probably don't
    have any sense of embarrasment left -- and I consider that a necessary
    part in the feedback loop which makes people change: "Look what you
    did! Do you really want to look like a dolt in public?" "Umpf. No. God
    that was embarrasing" <goes away with the resolution not to get into
    such a situation again>.

    But that won't happen to Xah.

    Regards -- Markus
     
    Markus E Leypold, Apr 17, 2007
    #5
  6. Xah Lee

    Mirco Wahab Guest

    Markus E Leypold wrote:
    > Trying to correct Xah's behaviour is probably impossible. People who
    > publish pictures of themselves as he does on the WWW probably don't
    > have any sense of embarrasment left ...


    you think of stuff like this
    www DOT m-e-leypold DOT de SLASH leypold-small.jpg
    ;-)

    > -- and I consider that a necessary
    > part in the feedback loop which makes people change: "Look what you
    > did! Do you really want to look like a dolt in public?" "Umpf. No. God
    > that was embarrasing" <goes away with the resolution not to get into
    > such a situation again>.


    The reason why I answered your posting at all (besides
    seeing your x-post going into 5 ng's) is your mentioning
    of 'God'. According to christian tradition (which is
    somehow on topic in a Perl group) it is exactly the
    case of Jesus (imho), who was (in his context) the
    "/Do you really want to look like a dolt in public/"
    man par excellance. Socrates also comes into the mind ;-)

    AFAIK - both were symptoms of the decline
    of their societies at the time ...

    Regards & sorry for scnr'ing

    Mirco

    remember - f'up to: comp.lang.perl.misc
     
    Mirco Wahab, Apr 17, 2007
    #6
  7. Re: [OT] Re: is laziness a programer's virtue?

    On Mon, 16 Apr 2007 17:58:52 -0400, D Herring
    <> wrote:

    >- Please topquote snippets from the threads about which you are commenting.
    >
    >- Please set your newsreader to prepend "Re: " or somesuch when replying
    >to a toplevel post.
    >
    >- Please don't preach about "meta-talk and policing" in a post which is
    >mostly meta-talk and preaching.


    FYI "Please" is probably a word that XL ignores completely. Thus do
    what most humans in their sane state of mind would do. Killfile it. If
    for some reason you can't, then ignore it. Certainly, do not feed it.


    Michele
    --
    {$_=pack'B8'x25,unpack'A8'x32,$a^=sub{pop^pop}->(map substr
    (($a||=join'',map--$|x$_,(unpack'w',unpack'u','G^<R<Y]*YB='
    ..'KYU;*EVH[.FHF2W+#"\Z*5TI/ER<Z`S(G.DZZ9OX0Z')=~/./g)x2,$_,
    256),7,249);s/[^\w,]/ /g;$ \=/^J/?$/:"\r";print,redo}#JAPH,
     
    Michele Dondi, Apr 17, 2007
    #7
  8. Mirco Wahab <> writes:

    > Markus E Leypold wrote:
    >> Trying to correct Xah's behaviour is probably impossible. People who
    >> publish pictures of themselves as he does on the WWW probably don't
    >> have any sense of embarrasment left ...

    >
    > you think of stuff like this
    > www DOT m-e-leypold DOT de SLASH leypold-small.jpg
    > ;-)


    ;-) No. This actually is a picture of myself I like (very much
    indeed), even if the long hair has gone now (I have to update the site
    some time within the next weeks, but the original site generator has
    died and the new site ain't ready yet).

    No, what I mean, is what one poster already posted to c.l.f, what
    you'll find looking for Xah Lee with Google image search and I won't
    link here. My warning: You probably don't want to see a picture of
    Xah's penis in full readiness.

    That is, what I consider embarrasing.

    > The reason why I answered your posting at all (besides
    > seeing your x-post going into 5 ng's) is your mentioning


    Your's too (you only changed the f'up) , and now I've done the
    ultimate sin and reset the F'up for this answer (if you post URLs to
    pictures of me, I reserve the right to say that I LIKE this picture
    :)

    But that's the last x-post in this thread, I promise.


    Regards -- Markus
     
    Markus E Leypold, Apr 17, 2007
    #8
  9. Xah Lee

    Ingo Menger Guest

    On 17 Apr., 12:33, Markus E Leypold
    <> wrote:

    > What makes Xah a troll is neither off-topic posts nor being
    > incoherent -- its the attitude. He's broadcasting his drivel to a
    > number of groups not with the intention to discuss (he hardly ever
    > answers to answers to his posts), but solely with the intention to
    > inform the world at large about his own magnificient thoughts.


    This hits the nail on the head.
    Perhaps one could understand this behaviour on cultural grounds. In
    chinese culture it may be not uncommon to write something that merely
    sounds like great wisdom and it is nevertheless appreciated because
    it's a piece of calligraphic art.

    > Trying to correct Xah's behaviour is probably impossible.


    Perhaps somebody could ask the chinese government to put him in jail
    for "hurting international society" :)
     
    Ingo Menger, Apr 17, 2007
    #9
  10. Xah Lee

    Lew Guest

    Markus E Leypold
    >> Trying to correct Xah's behaviour is probably impossible.


    Ingo Menger wrote:
    > Perhaps somebody could ask the chinese government to put him in jail
    > for "hurting international society" :)


    Y'know, even in jest, calling for an oppressive regime to suppress even
    wrong-headed and self-serving garbage self-expression is immoral and horrible.
    How dare you?

    Free speech, free press and free expression of ideas is not something to take
    so lightly.

    --
    Lew
     
    Lew, Apr 18, 2007
    #10
  11. On 17 Apr 2007 08:20:24 -0700, Ingo Menger
    <> wrote:

    >On 17 Apr., 12:33, Markus E Leypold
    ><> wrote:
    >
    >> What makes Xah a troll is neither off-topic posts nor being
    >> incoherent -- its the attitude. He's broadcasting his drivel to a
    >> number of groups not with the intention to discuss (he hardly ever
    >> answers to answers to his posts), but solely with the intention to
    >> inform the world at large about his own magnificient thoughts.

    >
    >This hits the nail on the head.
    >Perhaps one could understand this behaviour on cultural grounds. In
    >chinese culture it may be not uncommon to write something that merely
    >sounds like great wisdom and it is nevertheless appreciated because
    >it's a piece of calligraphic art.
    >
    >> Trying to correct Xah's behaviour is probably impossible.

    >
    >Perhaps somebody could ask the chinese government to put him in jail
    >for "hurting international society" :)


    That's going to be tough because, according to his web page, he's
    living in a Honda Civic somewhere in Illinois, USA.

    http://xahlee.org/PageTwo_dir/Personal_dir/xah.html

    George
    --
    for email reply remove "/" from address
     
    George Neuner, Apr 18, 2007
    #11
  12. "Lew" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Markus E Leypold
    >>> Trying to correct Xah's behaviour is probably impossible.

    >
    > Ingo Menger wrote:
    >> Perhaps somebody could ask the chinese government to put him in jail
    >> for "hurting international society" :)

    >
    > Y'know, even in jest, calling for an oppressive regime to suppress even
    > wrong-headed and self-serving garbage self-expression is immoral and
    > horrible. How dare you?
    >
    > Free speech, free press and free expression of ideas is not something to
    > take so lightly.


    That's right! Momma don't allow no levity around here!

    Off with Markus' head! :-D

    >
    > --
    > Lew
     
    Bruce C. Baker, Apr 18, 2007
    #12
  13. Xah Lee

    Lew Guest

    "Lew" ranted maniacally:
    >> Y'know, even in jest, calling for an oppressive regime to suppress even
    >> wrong-headed and self-serving garbage self-expression is immoral and
    >> horrible. How dare you?
    >>
    >> Free speech, free press and free expression of ideas is not something to
    >> take so lightly.


    Bruce C. Baker wrote:
    > That's right! Momma don't allow no levity around here!
    >
    > Off with Markus' head! :-D


    As they walked off together, Alice heard the King say in a low
    voice, to the company generally, `You are all pardoned.' `Come,
    THAT'S a good thing!' she said to herself, for she had felt quite
    unhappy at the number of executions the Queen had ordered.
    - /Alice's Adventures in Wonderland/, Lewis Carroll
     
    Lew, Apr 18, 2007
    #13
  14. Xah Lee

    Ingo Menger Guest

    On 18 Apr., 01:54, Lew <> wrote:
    > Markus E Leypold
    >
    > >> Trying to correct Xah's behaviour is probably impossible.

    > Ingo Menger wrote:
    > > Perhaps somebody could ask the chinese government to put him in jail
    > > for "hurting international society" :)

    >
    > Y'know, even in jest, calling for an oppressive regime to suppress even
    > wrong-headed and self-serving garbage self-expression is immoral and horrible.


    You're right. I confess this joke was going too far.

    > Free speech, free press and free expression of ideas is not something to take
    > so lightly.


    I'm with you on this point.
    But, since the biggest crime in Xah Lee's opinion apparently is
    "harming" and "damaging" society through expression of ideas, it must
    be possible to judge him by his own standards.
     
    Ingo Menger, Apr 18, 2007
    #14
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