is there a way ..... any way

Discussion in 'Perl Misc' started by Andries, Apr 26, 2004.

  1. Andries

    Andries Guest

    Hello folks,

    I tried lurking on but it stays jibberish to me.
    Questions asked are responded with a jargon that is beyond my
    comprehension and often in a tone you'll think twice to ask the next
    question. So this is too heavy for me (yet?).
    Is there a way that simple mortals can ask questions how to do things
    with perl/ work with perl. Is there a newsgroup?
    ok ok RTFM you'll say.
    Obviously you don't understand my question and despair.

    Andries Meijer
     
    Andries, Apr 26, 2004
    #1
    1. Advertising

  2. Andries wrote:
    > I tried lurking on but it stays jibberish to me. Questions asked
    > are responded with a jargon that is beyond my comprehension and
    > often in a tone you'll think twice to ask the next question. So
    > this is too heavy for me (yet?).


    Actually, if you are referring to the "Novice..." thread you started,
    you got plenty of useful advice. It's correct that nobody posted a
    complete program, which is quite in order.

    Please understand that this is not a help desk, it's not "write my
    program for me for free" service!! (You also wrote me privately, and -
    stupid as I may be - I sent you a complete program. Not sure if it
    does exactly what you want, but it's a start.)

    > Is there a way that simple mortals can ask questions how to do
    > things with perl/ work with perl.


    Absolutely. Provided, though, that those "mortals" *show* (not just
    say) that they are interested in improving their Perl skill *and* that
    they have made reasonable own efforts before posting.

    > ok ok RTFM you'll say.


    Yes. It can't be said too often. :)

    > Obviously you don't understand my question and despair.


    If you know no Perl, and are in such a hurry, the natural thing to do
    is to *hire* somebody who helps you.

    --
    Gunnar Hjalmarsson
    Email: http://www.gunnar.cc/cgi-bin/contact.pl
     
    Gunnar Hjalmarsson, Apr 26, 2004
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. Andries

    Robert Guest

    Andries wrote:
    > Hello folks,
    >
    > I tried lurking on but it stays jibberish to me.
    > Questions asked are responded with a jargon that is beyond my
    > comprehension and often in a tone you'll think twice to ask the next
    > question. So this is too heavy for me (yet?).
    > Is there a way that simple mortals can ask questions how to do things
    > with perl/ work with perl. Is there a newsgroup?
    > ok ok RTFM you'll say.
    > Obviously you don't understand my question and despair.
    >
    > Andries Meijer

    There is a Perl beginnings list. That would probably be good for you.

    http://learn.perl.org/
     
    Robert, Apr 26, 2004
    #3
  4. Robert wrote:
    > Andries wrote:
    >> Is there a way that simple mortals can ask questions how to do
    >> things with perl/ work with perl. Is there a newsgroup?

    >
    > There is a Perl beginnings list. That would probably be good for
    > you.
    >
    > http://learn.perl.org/


    Even if I have never tried that list, I take for granted that you
    cannot expect anybody to write your programs for you there either.

    --
    Gunnar Hjalmarsson
    Email: http://www.gunnar.cc/cgi-bin/contact.pl
     
    Gunnar Hjalmarsson, Apr 26, 2004
    #4
  5. Andries

    Andries Guest

    On Mon, 26 Apr 2004 01:36:25 +0200, Gunnar Hjalmarsson
    <> wrote:

    >Andries wrote:
    >> I tried lurking on but it stays jibberish to me. Questions asked
    >> are responded with a jargon that is beyond my comprehension and
    >> often in a tone you'll think twice to ask the next question. So
    >> this is too heavy for me (yet?).

    >
    >Actually, if you are referring to the "Novice..." thread you started,
    >you got plenty of useful advice. It's correct that nobody posted a
    >complete program, which is quite in order.
    >
    >Please understand that this is not a help desk, it's not "write my
    >program for me for free" service!! (You also wrote me privately, and -
    >stupid as I may be - I sent you a complete program. Not sure if it
    >does exactly what you want, but it's a start.)
    >
    >> Is there a way that simple mortals can ask questions how to do
    >> things with perl/ work with perl.

    >
    >Absolutely. Provided, though, that those "mortals" *show* (not just
    >say) that they are interested in improving their Perl skill *and* that
    >they have made reasonable own efforts before posting.
    >
    >> ok ok RTFM you'll say.

    >
    >Yes. It can't be said too often. :)
    >
    >> Obviously you don't understand my question and despair.

    >
    >If you know no Perl, and are in such a hurry, the natural thing to do
    >is to *hire* somebody who helps you.


    Gunnar,

    point taken. I just wanted a start that's all.
    If you are new to something, like i am then it is helpfull to have a
    start.
    You helped me very much but the program you gave me is not the end. It
    is a start for me. I can understand what it "does" and helps me to
    improve my skills.
    I can now look in the faqs and docs and look to my specific needs.
    People like me learn from doing and trying and stumbling.
    I think, although i can understand your point, that you have a rather
    pessimistic view.
    When i wanted just a program i would pay (of course). i wanted a
    program to learn.
    So you helped me to learn. And that's all that i wanted. It was never
    my intention to take advantage of anyone.

    Andries
     
    Andries, Apr 26, 2004
    #5
  6. In article <>,
    Andries <> wrote:
    :I tried lurking on but it stays jibberish to me.
    :Questions asked are responded with a jargon that is beyond my
    :comprehension and often in a tone you'll think twice to ask the next
    :question. So this is too heavy for me (yet?).

    There is certainly some truth in what you say, Andries. In my
    experience, some of the people who post here (even some of the regulars)
    often seem very harsh unless you ask your questions exactly the "right"
    way. The "experience" of clpm is a lot different than in most of
    the other technical newsgroups that I frequent, but I understand that
    there are some newsgroups that are *much* worse.

    As I understand, one part of the reason that people can seem so harsh
    is that clpm is not really considered to be a newsgroup about how to
    program in perl, or about how to install perl, and especially not a
    newsgroup about how to program in general (happening to use perl as the
    language): clpm is, I understand, considered to be a newsgroup about
    the perl language itself. For example, one can ask about a particular
    obscure feature of perl, or talk about the future of perl, but to be
    "in", you are expected to be talking abstractly. Asking about basic
    features and how to fix simple programs is, unfortunately, often
    responded to with what many would think of as hostility.


    :Is there a way that simple mortals can ask questions how to do things
    :with perl/ work with perl.

    In practice, you can get away with a fair bit in clpm, if you know
    a few key points:

    - Do not post just asking whether something will work. The answer
    you get back will be some variation on "Well, what happened when you
    tried it?"

    - If you do not understand something that is in the manuals, then
    when you post, you should make sure that your posting shows clearly
    that you have *read* the manuals. Do not just say "I don't know
    how to do X": say "I've read the man page about X, and this sentance
    confuses me, because I would interpret it as meaning Y, but when
    I tried doing that with this bit of code, Z, I got back a response
    that was different than Y."

    - If something seems to be going wrong, then post a *short* example
    of code that does not give the result you think it should. And
    make sure that you 'use strict' and 'use warnings' in your example,
    and that you run the example code -- if you just type the code in
    from memory, then people may get hung up about any minor mistakes you
    made.

    - Take the time to read the manual pages first. Look through all of them,
    even if you do not understand them the first time around. Become accustomed
    to what -kind- of information is to be found on each manual page.

    - Read the perl FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions). Again, if you don't
    understand part of one of them the first time, that's okay -- but
    if your question is answered in one of the FAQs and it appears that you
    did not even *look* there, then people in clpm will often get impatient
    with you.

    - One of the most important points is that your posting should show
    that you *tried*. perl is a big language, and it is okay to not understand
    part of it, but people will tend to be most helpful they can tell
    that you put some real effort into finding the answer yourself.

    - People do not like to feel that you are taking advantage of them,
    so never demand an answer or just expect them to fix your program,
    and never ever ask people to do your homework for you.
    Be polite, show that you are trying, and show that you are here to
    learn, not to get others to do things you cannot be bothered to do.

    - Try not to take harsh answers too personally. clpm can be stressful,
    but keep in mind that the approach that a number of people in the
    group have is the "tough love" approach -- not intended to offend,
    but intended to teach people how to be more self-sufficient.


    Even when you get to a much more advanced stage, and understand much of
    what people say, and get to know the people who post a lot, and start
    contributing answers yourself, you may still encounter what seems like
    hostility from time to time. There are a lot of people who do not read
    the newsgroup all the time, and you might get a response from someone
    who has not happened to see your previous well-thought answers and
    efforts to help people. So *sometimes*, in my experience, what you have
    to do is "push back", and firmly (but politely) show the other person
    that you know what you are talking about, that their snap answer did
    not take some important considerations into account, and that their
    answer was not entirely reasonable. Some of the regular posters have a
    bit of a tendancy to criticize and "put down" questions that they do
    not understand on first reading -- but those same people, once they do
    understand, can turn out to be very helpful in suggesting interesting
    approaches. Nearly all the regulars have something interesting to say,
    once they respect that you are at least -trying-.


    The last thing I would suggest, is that if you are going to hang
    around clpm for a long time, is to use a newsreader that has a 'killfile'
    function. Sometimes 'flamewars' start in clpm, and sometimes you may
    find some authors that have interesting points but tend to end up
    antagonizing people. It's only a newsgroup, you don't have to read
    everything: learn when to ignore discussions or people that are
    wearing you down more than they are helping you learn.

    --
    Rome was built one paycheck at a time. -- Walter Roberson
     
    Walter Roberson, Apr 26, 2004
    #6
  7. Andries <> wrote:

    > Is there a way that simple mortals can ask questions how to do things
    > with perl/ work with perl. Is there a newsgroup?



    Yes, and you are in it.


    > ok ok RTFM you'll say.



    Well of course.

    Spend ten minutes trying to find the answer to your question yourself.

    If that doesn't work, then post away!

    Have you seen the Posting Guidelines that are posted here frequently?


    > Obviously you don't understand my question and despair.



    Perhaps you have been looking at reference docs when what you
    need it a tutorial?

    If you have programmed in any other language, I recommend "Learning Perl".

    If not, I recommend "Elements of Programming with Perl".


    --
    Tad McClellan SGML consulting
    Perl programming
    Fort Worth, Texas
     
    Tad McClellan, Apr 26, 2004
    #7
  8. Andries

    anon Guest

    Andries wrote...

    > Hello folks,
    >
    > I tried lurking on but it stays jibberish to me.
    > Questions asked are responded with a jargon that is beyond my
    > comprehension and often in a tone you'll think twice to ask the next
    > question. So this is too heavy for me (yet?).
    > Is there a way that simple mortals can ask questions how to do things
    > with perl/ work with perl. Is there a newsgroup?
    > ok ok RTFM you'll say.
    > Obviously you don't understand my question and despair.
    >
    > Andries Meijer




    Hi Andries,

    I see you've already received some very comprehensive (and patient and
    courteous) replies to your questions. Every reply you get is intended to
    be helpful in some way. If it's not then explain why not or ask for
    clarification (after you've RTM). If it is then say thank you. You
    should get more involved in your own threads. The key to a good answer
    is a good question.

    guide here:
    http://catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
     
    anon, Apr 26, 2004
    #8
  9. Andries

    Jim Cochrane Guest

    In article <c6hi6t$cci8s$-berlin.de>, Gunnar Hjalmarsson wrote:
    > Andries wrote:
    >> I tried lurking on but it stays jibberish to me. Questions asked
    >> are responded with a jargon that is beyond my comprehension and
    >> often in a tone you'll think twice to ask the next question. So
    >> this is too heavy for me (yet?).

    >
    > ...
    >
    >> Obviously you don't understand my question and despair.

    >
    > If you know no Perl, and are in such a hurry, the natural thing to do
    > is to *hire* somebody who helps you.


    Alternatively, you might realize that if you really want to learn how to do
    something substantial (even if not particularly advanced), you will be
    greatly rewarded if you let go of your impatience, slow down, relax
    and enjoy the learning process. Buy a good perl book with some good
    examples and have fun with it. ("Learning Perl" may be a good place to
    start.)

    Just a suggestion.

    --
    Jim Cochrane;
    [When responding by email, include the term non-spam in the subject line to
    get through my spam filter.]
     
    Jim Cochrane, Apr 26, 2004
    #9
  10. Andries

    Jim Cochrane Guest

    In article <c6hjas$c832u$-berlin.de>, Gunnar Hjalmarsson wrote:
    > Robert wrote:
    >> Andries wrote:
    >>> Is there a way that simple mortals can ask questions how to do
    >>> things with perl/ work with perl. Is there a newsgroup?

    >>
    >> There is a Perl beginnings list. That would probably be good for
    >> you.
    >>
    >> http://learn.perl.org/

    >
    > Even if I have never tried that list, I take for granted that you
    > cannot expect anybody to write your programs for you there either.


    Unless you pay them appropriately for it :)

    --
    Jim Cochrane;
    [When responding by email, include the term non-spam in the subject line to
    get through my spam filter.]
     
    Jim Cochrane, Apr 26, 2004
    #10
  11. Andries

    Jim Cochrane Guest

    In article <c6hlfp$612$>, Walter Roberson wrote:
    > In article <>,
    > Andries <> wrote:
    >:I tried lurking on but it stays jibberish to me.
    >:Questions asked are responded with a jargon that is beyond my
    >:comprehension and often in a tone you'll think twice to ask the next
    >:question. So this is too heavy for me (yet?).
    >
    > There is certainly some truth in what you say, Andries. In my
    > experience, some of the people who post here (even some of the regulars)
    > often seem very harsh unless you ask your questions exactly the "right"
    > way. The "experience" of clpm is a lot different than in most of
    > the other technical newsgroups that I frequent, but I understand that
    > there are some newsgroups that are *much* worse.
    >
    > ...
    >:Is there a way that simple mortals can ask questions how to do things
    >:with perl/ work with perl.
    >
    > In practice, you can get away with a fair bit in clpm, if you know
    > a few key points:
    >
    > - Do not post just asking whether something will work. The answer
    > you get back will be some variation on "Well, what happened when you
    > tried it?"


    Also, if you run a program you've been working on and find it doesn't do
    what you expect it should, don't just post saying "It doesn't work."
    Instead, give some information, such as what you expect the program to do
    and what it actually does, including output, error messages, and any other
    relevant behavior.

    --
    Jim Cochrane;
    [When responding by email, include the term non-spam in the subject line to
    get through my spam filter.]
     
    Jim Cochrane, Apr 26, 2004
    #11
  12. >>>>> "Walter" == Walter Roberson <-cnrc.gc.ca> writes:

    Walter> As I understand, one part of the reason that people can seem so harsh
    Walter> is that clpm is not really considered to be a newsgroup about how to
    Walter> program in perl, or about how to install perl, and especially not a
    Walter> newsgroup about how to program in general (happening to use perl as the
    Walter> language): clpm is, I understand, considered to be a newsgroup about
    Walter> the perl language itself. For example, one can ask about a particular
    Walter> obscure feature of perl, or talk about the future of perl, but to be
    Walter> "in", you are expected to be talking abstractly. Asking about basic
    Walter> features and how to fix simple programs is, unfortunately, often
    Walter> responded to with what many would think of as hostility.

    I think you're missing some of the history of this group.

    The biggest problem that CLPM has faced historically is the rise of
    Perl as the CGI language of choice, being a bright shiny object for
    tens of thousands of web-squatter-wannabes. The problem is that all
    the Perl resources got slammed pretty heavily in the late 90s, and
    we're still feeling the sting of that.

    I really want to answer every question here. I answer as many as I
    can. I know many of the other experts here (and the experts who have
    already left) feel the same. But when I have to keep answering the
    same questions week after week, I get a bit bored, and wonder why
    people don't type "perldoc" or "www.google.com" or "groups.google.com"
    often enough. And then there's the group of lazy bas**rds who want me
    to debug their program for them, a job better done by someone for
    hire, not a free resource.

    This group is as much about learning Perl from day one as you can get.
    We're just a bit gun shy.

    print "Just another Perl hacker,"

    --
    Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
    <> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
    Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
    See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training!
     
    Randal L. Schwartz, Apr 26, 2004
    #12
  13. Andries

    Henry Law Guest

    On Sun, 25 Apr 2004 20:42:51 -0500, Tad McClellan
    <> wrote:

    >Perhaps you have been looking at reference docs when what you
    >need it a tutorial?
    >
    >If you have programmed in any other language, I recommend "Learning Perl".
    >
    >If not, I recommend "Elements of Programming with Perl".


    This is a vital point, Andries. Over the years I've acquired a fair
    familiarity with a number of programming languages, and have mostly
    taught myself from reference manuals, tutorial books and reading other
    people's code (a vital resource). I had found that, in general, a
    reference manual was enough to get me going: my basic knowledge of the
    things that *should* be possible, plus a reference manual to show me
    how those things were done in language "x", would be enough to get me
    going, after which reading good code provided the refinement. (OK,
    OK, that didn't work for APL, but that's another story!)

    When I turned to Perl about a year ago, though, I found that this way
    of learning was absolutely not enough. It's no criticism (in fact it
    may be a compliment) but the reference manuals won't teach you how to
    program properly in Perl, at least not in a sensible time frame. You
    *need* the tutorial books that Tad and others have suggested. Try to
    do what I did and borrow them, because you may not need them for ever:
    but you do need them now! There are some good resources on the net
    too. Get Googling and mail me privately if you can't find 'em; I have
    some bookmarks.

    Keep on keeping on; we'll get there, you and me.

    Henry Law <>< Manchester, England
     
    Henry Law, Apr 26, 2004
    #13
  14. Randal L. Schwartz <> wrote:
    >>>>>> "Walter" == Walter Roberson <-cnrc.gc.ca> writes:

    >
    >Walter> As I understand, one part of the reason that people can seem so harsh
    >Walter> is that clpm is not really considered to be a newsgroup about how to
    >Walter> program in perl, or about how to install perl, and especially not a
    >Walter> newsgroup about how to program in general (happening to use perl as the
    >Walter> language): clpm is, I understand, considered to be a newsgroup about
    >Walter> the perl language itself. For example, one can ask about a particular
    >Walter> obscure feature of perl, or talk about the future of perl, but to be
    >Walter> "in", you are expected to be talking abstractly. Asking about basic
    >Walter> features and how to fix simple programs is, unfortunately, often
    >Walter> responded to with what many would think of as hostility.
    >
    > I think you're missing some of the history of this group.
    >
    > The biggest problem that CLPM has faced historically is the rise of
    > Perl as the CGI language of choice, being a bright shiny object for
    > tens of thousands of web-squatter-wannabes. The problem is that all
    > the Perl resources got slammed pretty heavily in the late 90s, and
    > we're still feeling the sting of that.



    What makes this Perl newsgroup different other programming language
    newsgroups is that Perl sets the bar much lower than say Java or C++.

    Here we have both Power Programmers and Non-programmers who
    write programs. It's a culture clash between the widely different
    backgrounds.

    When a non-programmer can't get their Java/C++ "hello world" program
    to run, they give up and go elsewhere, and the corresponding newsgroup
    doesn't get postings from the Twilight Zone.


    --
    Tad McClellan SGML consulting
    Perl programming
    Fort Worth, Texas
     
    Tad McClellan, Apr 26, 2004
    #14
  15. Andries

    Andries Guest

    People,

    Your comment to my statements is heartwarming and helps a lot.
    Thank you (and i'm not cynical)
    The tips on learning how is very usefull.
    I lurk on in this newsgroup and will study.
    Gunnar helped me a lot by giving me code. This is experimental
    material for me. Learning material!
    I'll undestand the meaning of this newsgroup and understand your
    frustration.
    And remember: I"LL BE THERE (even if you don't see me :))

    Andries
     
    Andries, Apr 26, 2004
    #15
  16. In article <>,
    Randal L. Schwartz <> wrote:
    :I really want to answer every question here. I answer as many as I
    :can. I know many of the other experts here (and the experts who have
    :already left) feel the same. But when I have to keep answering the
    :same questions week after week, I get a bit bored, and wonder why
    :people don't type "perldoc" or "www.google.com" or "groups.google.com"
    :eek:ften enough. And then there's the group of lazy bas**rds who want me
    :to debug their program for them, a job better done by someone for
    :hire, not a free resource.

    Randal, I have, to use the cliche, "Been there. Done that." I (amongst
    others) have put a lot of work into some of the other technical
    hierarchies, and have faced the same challenges (though not to the same
    scale.) I know that I have sometimes gotten frustrated myself at
    answering the same question for the 4th time on one day, when it has
    been obvious that the posters haven't done even preliminary checking
    around to find the answers. And I know that from time to time, I have
    ranted when I have felt that someone was trying to take advantage of me
    (e.g., a time when someone said outright that they never bothered to
    even try to read the manual pages because it was 'faster' to post and
    let other people answer the question for him.)

    And I've had to learn how to "let go" of wanting to answer every
    question, because there are too many questions for one person [and when
    there are not so many questions and I could handle them all
    comfortably, I would have a tendancy to expand into more and more
    newsgroups, with more and more complex topics. ] My boss calls it
    "delegation", and says that I need to learn how to delegate more.
    And it's *hard* for an old perfectionist like me to just let things
    sit undone, unanswered, or to hand them off to someone who is going
    to spend weeks doing what I could do in a single evening... if only
    I didn't have 35 other "top priority" "Do by Yesterday" self-imposed
    tasks on my to-do-list.

    I am, as some might say, the classic recipie for workaholic burnout.
    And oh, did I burn out! and was nearly completely useless for 10 months
    before I -started- to recover (I'm still very much recovering, and
    still having bad tendancies to slip back into doing too much, wanting
    to do everything, wanting to answer every question....)


    But for all of that, for the load and stresses, internal and external,
    those other technical hierarchies that I'm involved with still come off as
    "nicer" places than clpm. [Unless someone mentions Linux -- but the
    regulars know better than to encourage the inevitable resulting troll
    posting.] We've worked out wordless agreements -- one of the regulars
    answers any given repeated question politely (but usually not in detail) if
    they feel like it, and if the question is still sitting unanswered after
    a few days or a week, then one of the irregular posters will probably
    eventually answer it. And if no-one answers it, then we save our
    sanity by just letting it go unanswered. When we're getting cranky
    from answering over and over again, we back off; someone will either
    step in and take our place or they won't. We're not miracle workers,
    we're people, and we do what we -reasonably- can, and retire to the
    sidelines for a rest when we need to. (And if someone then starts
    *demanding* answers, *then* we flame them ;-) )
    --
    Rump-Titty-Titty-Tum-TAH-Tee -- Fritz Lieber
     
    Walter Roberson, Apr 26, 2004
    #16
  17. >>>>> "Walter" == Walter Roberson <-cnrc.gc.ca> writes:

    Walter> And if no-one answers it, then we save our sanity by just
    Walter> letting it go unanswered.

    Maybe you can afford that luxury in other areas, but there's a lot of
    cargo-culted junk in the semi-answers all over the web, and everyone
    seems to consider themselves an expert after reading some random web
    tutorial. So, what happens in the Perl community is that the absence
    of good answers from experts gets filled up with crap answers from
    answerer-wannabes. Eeek. And this contributes to the burnout from
    the experts.

    Perl has an odd learning curve. Because you can accomplish something
    so quickly (hello world is one line), you think you can answer
    complicated questions about everything (hint: you can't, and should
    better be quiet). Also, Perl has had an interesting history, with the
    radical change in design styles between Perl4 and Perl5 (and I fear
    Perl6 will only make it worse :).

    So, we get script kiddies that are trying to make a popular Perl4 script
    working today, answerers who have only seen such scripts and consider
    themselves experts, people who defy authority who won't listen when
    an expert tells them they're in one of those first two categories,
    and then a few of us that may be burned out from the whole game.

    Welcome to Perl. A unique experience, a unique community. Not
    nastier, just a bit more polarized. :)

    print "Just another Perl hacker,"; # the first

    --
    Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
    <> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
    Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
    See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training!
     
    Randal L. Schwartz, Apr 26, 2004
    #17
  18. Randal L. Schwartz <> wrote:

    >>>>>> "Walter" == Walter Roberson <-cnrc.gc.ca>
    >>>>>> writes:

    >
    > Walter> And if no-one answers it, then we save our sanity by just
    > Walter> letting it go unanswered.
    >
    > Maybe you can afford that luxury in other areas, but there's a lot
    > of cargo-culted junk in the semi-answers all over the web, and
    > everyone seems to consider themselves an expert after reading some
    > random web tutorial. So, what happens in the Perl community is
    > that the absence of good answers from experts gets filled up with
    > crap answers from answerer-wannabes. Eeek. And this contributes
    > to the burnout from the experts.
    >
    > Perl has an odd learning curve. Because you can accomplish
    > something so quickly (hello world is one line), you think you can
    > answer complicated questions about everything (hint: you can't,
    > and should better be quiet).


    "Better no answer than a wrong one" is a maxim I've been following
    lately. It doesn't stop me from being wrong, but does stop me from
    posting when I'm uncertain and don't want to mislead someone.

    Even that maxim doesn't stop someone if they're too ignorant to know
    they're ignorant. (And that unfortunately can include me. :)

    When I know an answer I sometimes hold off on posting because it
    often turns out that someone else will post something that adds
    information or a viewpoint I hadn't been aware of. I'm sure there are
    plenty of other lurkers who benefit similarly. On behalf of them (or
    us), thanks to all of you for what must often seem a thankless task.

    One reason not to post much, though, is that some of you seem to be
    hooked up to a life-support system that allows you to never leave the
    computer, constantly answering posts regardless of the time of day or
    day of the week. Do you all ever sleep?
     
    David K. Wall, Apr 26, 2004
    #18
  19. In article <Xns94D78E33A157dkwwashere@216.168.3.30>,
    David K. Wall <> wrote:
    :One reason not to post much, though, is that some of you seem to be
    :hooked up to a life-support system that allows you to never leave the
    :computer, constantly answering posts regardless of the time of day or
    :day of the week. Do you all ever sleep?

    I'm not hooked up to a life-support system yet -- but I did spend many
    years online and posting so much and at such odd hours that it would
    have been hard for anyone out there to tell the difference. Eventually
    that lifestyle hit my health, and hit it hard. I'm still learning how
    to "let go" and pay attention to what my body is telling me -- still
    telling myself "The world won't end if I don't do or answer this
    myself."
    --
    100% of all human deaths occur within 100 miles of Earth.
     
    Walter Roberson, Apr 26, 2004
    #19
  20. David K. Wall <> wrote:

    > One reason not to post much, though, is that some of you seem to be
    > hooked up to a life-support system that allows you to never leave the
    > computer, constantly answering posts regardless of the time of day or
    > day of the week. Do you all ever sleep?



    I take cat-naps while writing

    use warnings and strict
    check open's return value
    don't use ampersands on function calls
    don't use dollar-digit vars unless match succeeded
    ...

    answers for the 50th time.

    I spend so much time on those type of posts that Real Sleep is not necessary.


    --
    Tad McClellan SGML consulting
    Perl programming
    Fort Worth, Texas
     
    Tad McClellan, Apr 26, 2004
    #20
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