Its a bird, its a plane, its.. um, an Attribute based System?

Discussion in 'Ruby' started by thunk, Apr 1, 2010.

  1. thunk

    thunk Guest

    http://seclab.uiuc.edu/web/projects/67.html

    And this doesn't make any particular sense to me.

    There is said to be a PHP version working with ECommerce?

    and It is open source.

    This was where the original concept only.... as I have stated from
    the beginning.

    And FOR THE RECORD - a AI "claim" was never made by me, that got
    schleppt into this with "Boid" which was my naive, but sincere best
    guess to what "this is".

    BUT there's more.... sorry... but thinking of the top of my head:
    1. A "ruid" framework would be 100% pure Ruby
    2. Would run no more than about 4,000 lines total - stretched out
    with lots of comments
    3. Would have zero dependencies
    4. Is "self adjusting" - externally appended units, all just
    "pluglet" right in.
    5. a 100% pure ruby "object base" can bolt right on - I will guess -
    my testing 2 years ago on couchDB proved that to me (via JSON)

    ------------------

    Finally this is straight up early on "conjecture" based on the
    "shopping Basket example".

    That was where the concept started.

    It has moved on to be something else, but probably not something too
    radically different.

    Now you all can tell me how boring you find this, but I am still
    wondering if anybody has hooked up all this stuff so that the only
    maintenance is in those "Helper Classes". That is working out just
    very nicely and a less dynamic system could not begin to do that
    without deserving "instant legacy" stature in my humble book.

    Meanwhile I will continue to build that public wiki at:

    http://wiki.github.com/gkoller/Ruids/

    at my own pace consistent with a "proprietary" release in 3 months or
    so.

    I'd also be interested to see this hooked up to Spree! I liked very
    much what I was seeing there... and they have had a fresh version, a
    good team and such. In fact, if this bolted into Spree a great deal
    of what I need to do to get the proprietary system up could be
    "avoided", and I'd like to consider that path.

    Nobody has really "clicked" 100% on where the limitations of this
    system is - and I'm not ashamed to say it, those "HelperClass" method
    calls could use Prolog or who knows what to do whatever beyond the
    problem I set out to solve.

    Thunk
     
    thunk, Apr 1, 2010
    #1
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  2. thunk

    thunk Guest

    thunk, Apr 2, 2010
    #2
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  3. thunk

    thunk Guest

    absolute last word from me forever on this as things are....

    my lessons:

    1. While the TOPIC still seems appropriate to a Ruby Discussions
    group, the Medium is not "conducive" to communicating on a bigger
    project.

    2. I have developed my own (tarzan) vocabulary to deal with a non-
    trivial problem based on what I have seen that seems to fit best,
    without reading about this or having anybody to chat about.

    3. Using phrases that mean other things to people that are in
    authority is not a good way to start any conversation, damage gets
    done, impressions get made, and it can almost only spiral down from
    that point

    4.I have NO idea what a "troll" is in your context, you have no idea
    what I'm tryng to say by "black box" in mine.

    5. Setting up a wiki at GitHub is many times less painless than I
    thought, I really should have done that FIRST - but in my defense I
    had no idea what I was going to learn here.

    6. You guys are wonderful and smart and all and have limited time and
    focus and want to see what you need to see in a posting. I bought a
    Book on Symphony that was written by the author that must have been
    200 pages, I'm not sure that what has to happen to accomplish what I
    know I have accomplished will not require any less.... perhaps
    more....

    7. Open source has an attitude of "show me your source" and any
    situation that does not fit this mold can become one of suspicion.
    ( Thats something really new to me, I'm here because of RUBY, and my
    "PickAx book" and a few IRCs with Gurus was all I needed for 3 years,
    I din't know this group existed. )

    8 forum "politics" is not new to me, but the system of "Rank" here
    seems less fragmented than I had expected. Human swarms are always
    interesting. Mr Davis used exactly the timing, and exactly decisive
    manner that I would use to shut down a "young turk" if I was in a
    position of authority. (Breaking of rank at this point would take
    some balls.)


    thunk is off to discover vinland,

    you guys "win"
     
    thunk, Apr 2, 2010
    #3
  4. Not to feed the troll, and I realize I'm late to this thread, but...

    On Thursday 01 April 2010 07:20:07 pm thunk wrote:
    > absolute last word from me forever on this as things are....


    Probably a good thing.

    I have to admit, I'm disappointed. I'd hoped maybe you'd be able to give us=
    an=20
    idea, at some point, of what you're talking about.

    > my lessons:
    >=20
    > 1. While the TOPIC still seems appropriate to a Ruby Discussions
    > group, the Medium is not "conducive" to communicating on a bigger
    > project.


    Actually, it is, if you're capable of communicating WTF that bigger project=
    =20
    is.

    > 2. I have developed my own (tarzan) vocabulary to deal with a non-
    > trivial problem based on what I have seen that seems to fit best,
    > without reading about this or having anybody to chat about.


    Having your own vocabulary can make things difficult if you're using terms=
    =20
    that already have established meanings.

    That said, I'm not sure that was the main issue. The main issue is that you=
    =20
    not only concocted your own whole new vocabulary, but you were unable to=20
    define pretty much any term you were using in plain English, or in plain Ru=
    by,=20
    or in any terms we would understand.

    > 3. Using phrases that mean other things to people that are in
    > authority is not a good way to start any conversation,


    I don't know that there's any particular authority in control of this forum=
    =2E=20
    What authority there is seems to be meritocratic -- that is, I listen to=20
    certain people because I know what they've done, and I know they can be=20
    respected. When the guy who wrote Merb (and Nanite, and a bunch of other fu=
    n=20
    things) tells you he doesn't know what you're talking about, I'm inclined t=
    o=20
    believe it's that you have a problem communicating, and not that we have a=
    =20
    problem understanding.

    > 4.I have NO idea what a "troll" is in your context, you have no idea
    > what I'm tryng to say by "black box" in mine.


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet)

    > 5. Setting up a wiki at GitHub is many times less painless than I
    > thought, I really should have done that FIRST - but in my defense I
    > had no idea what I was going to learn here.


    That doesn't really help. The homepage of your wiki does almost nothing to=
    =20
    explain what you're talking about. In particular:

    "Ru=E2=80=99ids are the =E2=80=9CAtomic Unit=E2=80=9D in this 100% pure Rub=
    y based system.
    They are not the only part, but they are rather the defining part."

    Unit of what, what does that imply, what do they actually do? You don't do =
    a=20
    very good job of defining them. For that, I have to go to another page:

    "They are Minimum Program Units written in a set of
    simple Ruby DSLs."

    Minimum Program Units -- so, what, methods, modules, objects, files?
    Telling us that it's a DSL doesn't help unless you tell us what that DSL is=
    =20
    describing.

    =46or example, Rake has tasks. They are defined in a DSL, sure, but what's=
    =20
    important is that they're a block of code with a name and a list of other=20
    tasks they depend on.

    > I bought a
    > Book on Symphony that was written by the author that must have been
    > 200 pages, I'm not sure that what has to happen to accomplish what I
    > know I have accomplished will not require any less.... perhaps
    > more....


    Definitely less, if you hope for any of us to read it.

    It's not just that we have limited time and patience, it's that you are mak=
    ing=20
    less sense the more you write, and you STILL don't have a proper summary of=
    =20
    what it is you're talking about.

    > 7. Open source has an attitude of "show me your source" and any
    > situation that does not fit this mold can become one of suspicion.


    Somewhat, but not necessarily.

    =46or example, I've occasionally brought up my somewhat abstract idea of a =
    pure-
    Ruby actor library in which the messages sent between actors are just metho=
    d=20
    calls, and actors can be garbage-collected. I sort of have a prototype, but=
    =20
    I've never shared it here.

    Yet people were willing to talk to me about it, because I'm able to explain=
    it=20
    in terms they can understand. The only thing missing might be a description=
    of=20
    the actor model, and I can just point them here:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Actor_model

    The reason people are insisting that you show us the code is that you seem=
    =20
    utterly incapable of saying what you mean in plain English, so there's the=
    =20
    hope that maybe, if there's something to it, we'll be able to understand yo=
    ur=20
    code. I have my doubts about that -- it might be that people were hoping yo=
    u'd=20
    shut up and go make it work.

    > 8 forum "politics" is not new to me, but the system of "Rank" here
    > seems less fragmented than I had expected. Human swarms are always
    > interesting. Mr Davis used exactly the timing, and exactly decisive
    > manner that I would use to shut down a "young turk" if I was in a
    > position of authority. (Breaking of rank at this point would take
    > some balls.)


    I'm fairly sure I've disagreed with Mr. Davis on occasion. I've certainly=20
    "broken rank" with anyone here who could be considered a "leader". There ar=
    e=20
    all sorts of lively debates, and politics generally doesn't get in the way.

    The problem here is not politics, it is the fact that no one, even quiet=20
    lurkers like me, is able to figure out what you're talking about. If someon=
    e=20
    could, I'd hope they would speak up and translate for the rest of us.
     
    David Masover, Apr 2, 2010
    #4
  5. thunk

    Seebs Guest

    On 2010-04-02, David Masover <> wrote:
    > The problem here is not politics, it is the fact that no one, even quiet
    > lurkers like me, is able to figure out what you're talking about. If someone
    > could, I'd hope they would speak up and translate for the rest of us.


    Exactly.

    When someone declares that the reason no one's listening to their stream
    of consciousness ranting is "politics", that's usually a good sign that
    they haven't got anything going.

    -s
    --
    Copyright 2010, all wrongs reversed. Peter Seebach /
    http://www.seebs.net/log/ <-- lawsuits, religion, and funny pictures
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_Game_(Scientology) <-- get educated!
     
    Seebs, Apr 2, 2010
    #5
  6. thunk

    Le Couey Guest

    Hello David,

    On 4/2/2010 10:39 AM, David Masover wrote:
    > Not to feed the troll, and I realize I'm late to this thread, but...
    >
    > That said, I'm not sure that was the main issue. The main issue is that you
    > not only concocted your own whole new vocabulary, but you were unable to
    > define pretty much any term you were using in plain English, or in plain Ruby,
    > or in any terms we would understand.
    >
    >
    >> 3. Using phrases that mean other things to people that are in
    >> authority is not a good way to start any conversation,
    >>

    > I don't know that there's any particular authority in control of this forum.
    > What authority there is seems to be meritocratic -- that is, I listen to
    > certain people because I know what they've done, and I know they can be
    > respected. When the guy who wrote Merb (and Nanite, and a bunch of other fun
    > things) tells you he doesn't know what you're talking about, I'm inclined to
    > believe it's that you have a problem communicating, and not that we have a
    > problem understanding.
    > ...
    >> 7. Open source has an attitude of "show me your source" and any
    >> situation that does not fit this mold can become one of suspicion.
    >>

    > Somewhat, but not necessarily.
    >
    > For example, I've occasionally brought up my somewhat abstract idea of a pure-
    > Ruby actor library in which the messages sent between actors are just method
    > calls, and actors can be garbage-collected. I sort of have a prototype, but
    > I've never shared it here.
    >
    > Yet people were willing to talk to me about it, because I'm able to explain it
    > in terms they can understand. The only thing missing might be a description of
    > the actor model, and I can just point them here:
    >
    > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Actor_model
    >
    > The reason people are insisting that you show us the code is that you seem
    > utterly incapable of saying what you mean in plain English, so there's the
    > hope that maybe, if there's something to it, we'll be able to understand your
    > code. I have my doubts about that -- it might be that people were hoping you'd
    > shut up and go make it work.
    >
    >
    >> 8 forum "politics" is not new to me, but the system of "Rank" here
    >> seems less fragmented than I had expected. Human swarms are always
    >> interesting. Mr Davis used exactly the timing, and exactly decisive
    >> manner that I would use to shut down a "young turk" if I was in a
    >> position of authority. (Breaking of rank at this point would take
    >> some balls.)
    >>

    > I'm fairly sure I've disagreed with Mr. Davis on occasion. I've certainly
    > "broken rank" with anyone here who could be considered a "leader". There are
    > all sorts of lively debates, and politics generally doesn't get in the way.
    >
    > The problem here is not politics, it is the fact that no one, even quiet
    > lurkers like me, is able to figure out what you're talking about. If someone
    > could, I'd hope they would speak up and translate for the rest of us.
    >
    >
    >

    I'm a lurker here myself. My time is very restricted right now, but I
    like to see what people are doing and what problems they're running into
    AND what the solutions others have come up with, ;-)

    You've made some very good points here. But I think you may have missed
    the primary consideration Thunk has that keeps him from communication
    what his real problem is ... so, with out a well defined problem, no one
    can see a solution for him. So not responses that he "can use", only
    requests for clarification, which he "can't" give. The point you've missed:
    > Meanwhile I will continue to build that public wiki at:
    >
    > http://wiki.github.com/gkoller/Ruids/
    >
    > at my own pace consistent with a "proprietary" release in 3 months or
    > so.
    > ...
    > Thunk
    >

    The key phrase is "proprietary". He's afraid of loosing MONEY if he
    actually tells what he wants, so he "hints" and "Hints" but does not
    tell anything that can be of use.

    I've seen this many times before, Thunk wants a solution HE CAN SELL as
    HIS WORK, not OPEN SOURCE, or even the "Ruby way", he wants ALL the
    credit, but little of the work. He wants a solution that is a "plug and
    play" solution. But, again, he's afraid to let anyone know what he
    really is after ... they might beat him to the market and get all the
    money first! Or at least that's the impression I'm getting from his
    writings so far. It's difficult for him, he doesn't trust anyone one the
    list. He has no one he can turn to for help at the same time. If he's
    good he'll figure it out by himself. If he's just average ... well he'll
    probably blame the list "politics".

    --
    LeCouey
    Professional Hacker (1967) Rubyist (from the
    time when the ONLY docs were in Japanese, and I DON'T read/write/speak
    Japanese! <sigh>)
    Professional Newbie (1950) There is always
    more to learn about Every Subject! AND There is always a better way,
    that requires less effort, of doing it.
    Professional Generalist (1979) If I can't program
    it, IT can not be done! By Anyone! (with maybe a few exceptions B-\ ;-)


    --
    ____________________________________________________
    Security is mostly a superstition, it does not exist in nature, nor do
    the children of men as a whole experience it. Avoiding danger is no
    safer in the long run than outright exposure. Life is either a daring
    adventure or nothing. To keep our faces toward change and behave like
    free spirits in the presence of fate is strength undefeatable. - Helen
    Keller.
    * Taglines by TagZilla * http://tagzilla.mozdev.org
     
    Le Couey, Apr 2, 2010
    #6
  7. thunk

    Guest

    On Apr 2, 2010, at 2:21 PM, Le Couey <> wrote:

    > Hello David,
    >
    > On 4/2/2010 10:39 AM, David Masover wrote:
    >> Not to feed the troll, and I realize I'm late to this thread, but...
    >>
    >> That said, I'm not sure that was the main issue. The main issue is
    >> that you
    >> not only concocted your own whole new vocabulary, but you were
    >> unable to
    >> define pretty much any term you were using in plain English, or in
    >> plain Ruby,
    >> or in any terms we would understand.
    >>
    >>
    >>> 3. Using phrases that mean other things to people that are in
    >>> authority is not a good way to start any conversation,
    >>>

    >> I don't know that there's any particular authority in control of
    >> this forum.
    >> What authority there is seems to be meritocratic -- that is, I
    >> listen to
    >> certain people because I know what they've done, and I know they
    >> can be
    >> respected. When the guy who wrote Merb (and Nanite, and a bunch of
    >> other fun
    >> things) tells you he doesn't know what you're talking about, I'm
    >> inclined to
    >> believe it's that you have a problem communicating, and not that we
    >> have a
    >> problem understanding.
    >> ...
    >>> 7. Open source has an attitude of "show me your source" and any
    >>> situation that does not fit this mold can become one of suspicion.
    >>>

    >> Somewhat, but not necessarily.
    >>
    >> For example, I've occasionally brought up my somewhat abstract idea
    >> of a pure-
    >> Ruby actor library in which the messages sent between actors are
    >> just method
    >> calls, and actors can be garbage-collected. I sort of have a
    >> prototype, but
    >> I've never shared it here.
    >>
    >> Yet people were willing to talk to me about it, because I'm able to
    >> explain it
    >> in terms they can understand. The only thing missing might be a
    >> description of
    >> the actor model, and I can just point them here:
    >>
    >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Actor_model
    >>
    >> The reason people are insisting that you show us the code is that
    >> you seem
    >> utterly incapable of saying what you mean in plain English, so
    >> there's the
    >> hope that maybe, if there's something to it, we'll be able to
    >> understand your
    >> code. I have my doubts about that -- it might be that people were
    >> hoping you'd
    >> shut up and go make it work.
    >>
    >>
    >>> 8 forum "politics" is not new to me, but the system of "Rank" here
    >>> seems less fragmented than I had expected. Human swarms are always
    >>> interesting. Mr Davis used exactly the timing, and exactly decisive
    >>> manner that I would use to shut down a "young turk" if I was in a
    >>> position of authority. (Breaking of rank at this point would take
    >>> some balls.)
    >>>

    >> I'm fairly sure I've disagreed with Mr. Davis on occasion. I've
    >> certainly
    >> "broken rank" with anyone here who could be considered a "leader".
    >> There are
    >> all sorts of lively debates, and politics generally doesn't get in
    >> the way.
    >>
    >> The problem here is not politics, it is the fact that no one, even
    >> quiet
    >> lurkers like me, is able to figure out what you're talking about.
    >> If someone
    >> could, I'd hope they would speak up and translate for the rest of us.
    >>
    >>
    >>

    > I'm a lurker here myself. My time is very restricted right now, but I
    > like to see what people are doing and what problems they're running
    > into
    > AND what the solutions others have come up with, ;-)
    >
    > You've made some very good points here. But I think you may have
    > missed
    > the primary consideration Thunk has that keeps him from communication
    > what his real problem is ... so, with out a well defined problem, no
    > one
    > can see a solution for him. So not responses that he "can use", only
    > requests for clarification, which he "can't" give. The point you've
    > missed:
    >> Meanwhile I will continue to build that public wiki at:
    >>
    >> http://wiki.github.com/gkoller/Ruids/
    >>
    >> at my own pace consistent with a "proprietary" release in 3 months or
    >> so.
    >> ...
    >> Thunk
    >>

    > The key phrase is "proprietary". He's afraid of loosing MONEY if he
    > actually tells what he wants, so he "hints" and "Hints" but does not
    > tell anything that can be of use.
    >
    > I've seen this many times before, Thunk wants a solution HE CAN SELL
    > as
    > HIS WORK, not OPEN SOURCE, or even the "Ruby way", he wants ALL the
    > credit, but little of the work. He wants a solution that is a "plug
    > and
    > play" solution. But, again, he's afraid to let anyone know what he
    > really is after ... they might beat him to the market and get all the
    > money first! Or at least that's the impression I'm getting from his
    > writings so far. It's difficult for him, he doesn't trust anyone one
    > the
    > list. He has no one he can turn to for help at the same time. If he's
    > good he'll figure it out by himself. If he's just average ... well
    > he'll
    > probably blame the list "politics".
    >


    Bingo. I even gave him a signed NDA so I can see code-- and phone
    number. He won't do a code drop online. Even I have no idea what he is
    really after. I thoujght I had some idea, but his lexicon kept changing.

    Andrew McElroy



    > --
    > LeCouey
    > Professional Hacker (1967) Rubyist (from
    > the
    > time when the ONLY docs were in Japanese, and I DON'T read/write/speak
    > Japanese! <sigh>)
    > Professional Newbie (1950) There is always
    > more to learn about Every Subject! AND There is always a better way,
    > that requires less effort, of doing it.
    > Professional Generalist (1979) If I can't
    > program
    > it, IT can not be done! By Anyone! (with maybe a few exceptions B-
    > \ ;-)
    >
    >
    > --
    > ____________________________________________________
    > Security is mostly a superstition, it does not exist in nature, nor do
    > the children of men as a whole experience it. Avoiding danger is no
    > safer in the long run than outright exposure. Life is either a daring
    > adventure or nothing. To keep our faces toward change and behave like
    > free spirits in the presence of fate is strength undefeatable. - Helen
    > Keller.
    > * Taglines by TagZilla * http://tagzilla.mozdev.org
    >
     
    , Apr 2, 2010
    #7
  8. thunk

    thunk Guest

    On Apr 2, 2:21 pm, Le Couey <> wrote:
    > Hello David,
    >
    > On 4/2/2010 10:39 AM, David Masover wrote:
    >
    > > Not to feed the troll, and I realize I'm late to this thread, but...

    >
    > > That said, I'm not sure that was the main issue. The main issue is thatyou
    > > not only concocted your own whole new vocabulary, but you were unable to
    > > define pretty much any term you were using in plain English, or in plain Ruby,
    > > or in any terms we would understand.

    >
    > >> 3. Using phrases that mean other things to people that are in
    > >> authority is not a good way to start any conversation,

    >
    > > I don't know that there's any particular authority in control of this forum.
    > > What authority there is seems to be meritocratic -- that is, I listen to
    > > certain people because I know what they've done, and I know they can be
    > > respected. When the guy who wrote Merb (and Nanite, and a bunch of other fun
    > > things) tells you he doesn't know what you're talking about, I'm inclined to
    > > believe it's that you have a problem communicating, and not that we have a
    > > problem understanding.
    > > ...
    > >> 7.  Open source has an attitude of "show me your source" and any
    > >> situation that does not fit this mold can become one of suspicion.

    >
    > > Somewhat, but not necessarily.

    >
    > > For example, I've occasionally brought up my somewhat abstract idea of a pure-
    > > Ruby actor library in which the messages sent between actors are just method
    > > calls, and actors can be garbage-collected. I sort of have a prototype,but
    > > I've never shared it here.

    >
    > > Yet people were willing to talk to me about it, because I'm able to explain it
    > > in terms they can understand. The only thing missing might be a description of
    > > the actor model, and I can just point them here:

    >
    > >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Actor_model

    >
    > > The reason people are insisting that you show us the code is that you seem
    > > utterly incapable of saying what you mean in plain English, so there's the
    > > hope that maybe, if there's something to it, we'll be able to understand your
    > > code. I have my doubts about that -- it might be that people were hoping you'd
    > > shut up and go make it work.

    >
    > >> 8 forum "politics" is not new to me, but the system of "Rank" here
    > >> seems less fragmented than I had expected. Human swarms are always
    > >> interesting.  Mr Davis used exactly the timing, and exactly decisive
    > >> manner that I would use to shut down a "young turk" if I was in a
    > >> position of authority.  (Breaking of rank at this point would take
    > >> some balls.)

    >
    > > I'm fairly sure I've disagreed with Mr. Davis on occasion. I've certainly
    > > "broken rank" with anyone here who could be considered a "leader". There are
    > > all sorts of lively debates, and politics generally doesn't get in the way.

    >
    > > The problem here is not politics, it is the fact that no one, even quiet
    > > lurkers like me, is able to figure out what you're talking about. If someone
    > > could, I'd hope they would speak up and translate for the rest of us.

    >
    > I'm a lurker here myself. My time is very restricted right now, but I
    > like to see what people are doing and what problems they're running into
    > AND what the solutions others have come up with, ;-)
    >
    > You've made some very good points here. But I think you may have missed
    > the primary consideration Thunk has that keeps him from communication
    > what his real problem is ... so, with out a well defined problem, no one
    > can see a solution for him. So not responses that he "can use", only
    > requests for clarification, which he "can't" give. The point you've missed:> Meanwhile I will continue to build that public wiki at:
    >
    > >http://wiki.github.com/gkoller/Ruids/

    >
    > > at my own pace consistent with a "proprietary" release in 3 months or
    > > so.
    > > ...
    > > Thunk

    >
    > The key phrase is "proprietary". He's afraid of loosing MONEY if he
    > actually tells what he wants, so he "hints" and "Hints" but does not
    > tell anything that can be of use.
    >
    > I've seen this many times before, Thunk wants a solution HE CAN SELL as
    > HIS WORK, not OPEN SOURCE, or even the "Ruby way", he wants ALL the
    > credit, but little of the work. He wants a solution that is a "plug and
    > play" solution. But, again, he's afraid to let anyone know what he
    > really is after ... they might beat him to the market and get all the
    > money first! Or at least that's the impression I'm getting from his
    > writings so far. It's difficult for him, he doesn't trust anyone one the
    > list. He has no one he can turn to for help at the same time. If he's
    > good he'll figure it out by himself. If he's just average ... well he'll
    > probably blame the list "politics".
    >
    > --
    > LeCouey
    >     Professional Hacker (1967)                         Rubyist (from the
    > time when the ONLY docs were in Japanese, and I DON'T read/write/speak
    > Japanese! <sigh>)
    >     Professional Newbie (1950)                        There is always
    > more to learn about Every Subject! AND There is always a better way,
    > that requires less effort, of doing it.
    >     Professional Generalist (1979)                    If I can't program
    > it, IT can not be done! By Anyone! (with maybe a few exceptions B-\  ;-)
    >
    > --
    > ____________________________________________________
    > Security is mostly a superstition, it does not exist in nature, nor do
    > the children of men as a whole experience it. Avoiding danger is no
    > safer in the long run than outright exposure. Life is either a daring
    > adventure or nothing. To keep our faces toward change and behave like
    > free spirits in the presence of fate is strength undefeatable. - Helen
    > Keller.
    >         * Taglines by TagZilla *http://tagzilla.mozdev.org


    Absolutely Fascinating!

    Thank you!

    Please understand, however, that one instance of the general PROBLEM
    that I can see clearly as an opportunity is (relatively?) clear and I
    think that was communicated reasonably clearly, eagerly, and early on.

    What has made things much less clear, is that as I "backed into this
    problem" certain strengths of Ruby drew me into trying new things, and
    what can I say, they are showing themselves to function. This is
    exciting to me, and as an experienced and relatively confident
    programmer, I don't need to FINISH a project entirely to convince
    MYSELF that what I SEE can be be accomplished.

    When one uses new tools, in a new domain, there is NEVER going to be
    100% confidence until the deed is done, the product is shrink-wrapped,
    out the door...(and then one wonders about returns and support).
    Whoops, that was the 80's but there is certainly some equivalent of
    this in your respective worlds.

    I "backed into the problem" by probing and testing some "what if this
    should work" basis. It generally worked, then it became clear, that
    for example the DSL work would be almost trivial because of the
    intrinsic power built into Ruby.

    The problem I "backed into", is not difficult, or terribly complex,
    but the SOLUTION has broader implications - or I honestly believe that
    they do.

    And I would be most glad to share THAT, but it would take time and
    resources that I simply do not have. I cannot spend my time on
    documenting a framework to give away, without taking time away from my
    laughably narrow (venal bourgeoisie) but critical to me project. My
    heart is with the Open Source, I love Ruby, and I owe the community
    something..... and so on... the proper sentiments expressed so often
    with varying degrees of sincerity)

    Attached to the above is a 90% certainty (in my mind) that I can do
    something in the concrete instance path I am on (or I would be batshit
    crazy) compared to a "context / coincidence / mood / credentials /
    ego / ability to communicate / connections " mixed up world of Open
    Source. Sorry, if I offend here but there is about the same credit
    given for having founded and run a corporation in the 80's 90's and
    producing new products as there is to knowing the right buzzword at
    the right moment - (although I admit I am probably rather an
    statistical outlier in this regard).

    There is also a consideration that rather drives me to distraction. I
    would be most glad to share 100% of everything with somebody I know to
    trust, the offer has been made, what I cannot relate to is having it
    "out there" 24/7 for anybody to do anything with - including coming
    straight at me in my little but necessary domain of interest. Being
    abstract and theoretical about this might seem to make that go away,
    but it is a simple fact that once something is on the web you have
    basically given it away to anybody to do anything with...

    The ideal solution, as I can see it, would be to share this 100%,
    heads on, straight up, with one trusted entity that can evaluate the
    potential and simply go from there. The offer is made, consider it
    official. Perhaps that could be a university, or such, or a company
    with a track record of doing this stuff right.

    The idea that this might occur, has been in the back of my mind since
    coming to this board.

    My track record is real, it involves real professors with a pedigree
    traceable to Dr, W. A. Shewhart, and Dr. W. Edward Deming and
    the"Statistical Control of quality" movement into software that I was
    proud to play a role in.

    There was a few more interesting years of an art studio, sailing, and
    other silly things before discovering Ruby and getting serious
    again... but that is another story.


    Respectfully, and humbly

    thunk


    ps - "and Life is either a daring adventure or nothing." makes me
    think of one of my last "commutes" to my studio that included waves of
    20' (no kidding) in my 27' sailboat. I loved every second of it, its
    how we grow. Calm waters are for another brand of soul.
     
    thunk, Apr 2, 2010
    #8
  9. thunk

    thunk Guest

    Defining "these things" may not be as simple as it may seem. Some of
    the complications include:

    1. There are multiple TYPES - 3 that I have used, and more that I
    can see clear reasons for.
    2. I have repeated that they are a text file, that has a common
    family Module, and a Class, all three so I'm not sure what that tells
    anybody.
    3. There are SECTIONS (tarzan speak?) - and each one corresponds to a
    DSL. No big whoop here, that's been pointed out already.
    4. They Rendezvous (tarzan speak?) for? connect up with something I
    call a "HelperClass" (more Tarzan? - Ruleby uses this phrase also)
    ......
    ......
    5. They do things with the HelperClass - by using methods (what else)
    and those methods COULD DO ANYTHING - bounce light off the Moon - how
    am I to speak to that... it is OPEN.

    6. There is a BLACKBOX kind of thing (from the aircraft analogy) - and
    THIS thing automatically records (stack of strings) every detail of
    every "transaction"

    7. The DSLs take turns going down the Sections.... depending on type.

    8. The "BlackBox" is for details, the automatic things, like
    retrieving variables from someplace and giving it a name, or not
    finding it and aborting, like that. The WhiteBoard is for more
    specialized communications - between "swarms" and such. It is proving
    very useful and is what I should be working on right now....

    9. The atomic units are "fired!" in a pre-determined pattern, and
    they pick up some real flexibility from this, as one "pass" can leave
    information for the next "pass" and so on - all common sense - but it
    could seem a little foreign at first, but it is natural to our
    thinking, the Taliban attacked the Germans today using a 1-2-3 plan -
    small arms, then a mine - then, some scheise, different day - but
    there is STRENGTH in this that seems amazing to this old programmer.
    amazing and Fun.


    ....................
    .....................

    But "what do it do?????" - one type of particular importance - by
    numbers / not ability ? Defines Attributes, Makes Assertions, and
    Arrives at a "Conclusion" (tarzan?)

    --------------------
    ......................

    I have NEVER made fantastical claims for this system: but what I see
    as particularly powerful in my batShit Crazy world -

    Is this: These units are / can be created by NOTHING MORE THAN
    FILLING OUT SOMETHING I WOULD CALL A "FORM" - lots of multiple
    choices, and NOT much else.
    Sorry, I can't think of a better name - using WEE I came up with a
    system of presenting an "Expert" with this "FORM" one SECTION at a
    time.

    Nothing exciting there? Maybe not, but I thought it was "kinda cool"
    that everything NEEDED TO CREATE THE FORMS comes from using REFLECTION
    on the various other components.

    So - it sorta "free floats" / autoadjusts / self - reflecticates -
    whatever - but you don't have to worry because it all works from
    various tricks of Ruby Goodness.

    So - now whats so useful about that???

    Think about it, you have a simple form that is on-line 24-7 for
    anybody anywhere anytime to add a new unit to your system - he
    "authors it" - it is becomes a "atomic unit" in your system - to do
    what you want.

    I wrote up something I called "Capturing the Aluminum Moment" on my
    wiki - not because if DEFINEs much but because it is some of the
    thought about this whole thing.

    There is also another "revelation" or two that came to ME from working
    with this thing - one is that the whole system could self-evolve
    (tarzan speak?) with nothing more than adding HELPER_CLASSES and
    Methods to these Classes.

    This sounds like the technical write up link to ABS but it is full of
    'c' era stuff and doesn't smell of goodness.

    ABS is the best clue yet, about what "this is" but I don't believe it
    ends there. Not because of some sort of plan, but just because Ruby
    is so Good.
     
    thunk, Apr 2, 2010
    #9
  10. thunk

    thunk Guest

    > Exactly.
    >
    > When someone declares that the reason no one's listening to their stream
    > of consciousness ranting is "politics", that's usually a good sign that
    > they haven't got anything going.



    better a stream than a puddle
     
    thunk, Apr 3, 2010
    #10
  11. On Friday 02 April 2010 03:25:10 pm thunk wrote:
    > And I would be most glad to share THAT, but it would take time and
    > resources that I simply do not have.


    You don't have time to simply upload it to Github?

    > I cannot spend my time on
    > documenting a framework to give away,


    Plenty of people seem to find that time, but even without documentation, some
    code -- or, hell, at least some *code samples*. It might be difficult for me
    to explain to people what Rails is and why I like it, but it gets a lot
    simpler when I can actually show them:


    class User
    has_many :posts
    end

    class Post
    belongs_to :user
    end

    User.find_by_name('Joe').posts << Post.new:)subject => 'Hello', :body =>
    'Hello, world!')


    Someone who understands a relational database would immediately get the idea
    of what the above is supposed to do, and might start to understand why Rails
    is so cool. It also doesn't give away the details of the implementation, if
    that's what you're paranoid of.


    Regardless, you seem to have a TON of time to rant about it here. How much
    time have you spent posting to this list already, attempting to tell us what
    this is all about, when you could have posted it in a tenth of the time?


    > There is also a consideration that rather drives me to distraction. I
    > would be most glad to share 100% of everything with somebody I know to
    > trust, the offer has been made,


    I don't know if you're saying that someone's already offered to buy it, though
    I'd find that surprising.

    Here's the problem: If you can't even explain it properly to a group of
    professional and very bright Ruby developers, how can you hope to explain to a
    business type what it entails, certainly to the point where they'll fund you?
    If your intention is to sell it, you should at least be able to sell us.

    > what I cannot relate to is having it
    > "out there" 24/7 for anybody to do anything with - including coming
    > straight at me in my little but necessary domain of interest.


    If it's so very domain-specific, why are you bothering the list?

    If it's not...

    Rails started out as part of BaseCamp, which is a domain-specific app.
    37signals extracted Rails from BaseCamp, so they didn't have to share their
    domain-specific stuff, just the framework it was built on.

    And as a result, there's a strong Ruby on Rails community from around the
    world which works on improving Rails -- not to mention Ruby. All of this
    benefits 37signals, again without exposing them to competition in their
    specific area.

    So the question is, are you in the business of selling development tools,
    libraries, frameworks, etc? Or are you selling something else?

    And is this something that truly is tightly bound to your domain? Or is there
    something very cool and abstract that could be extracted?

    Now, to be fair, it would take some amount of time to extract it into a
    library or a framework. That's time you should probably spend anyway -- it's
    probably a better design and a useful refactoring.

    > once something is on the web you have
    > basically given it away to anybody to do anything with...


    Well, no, you could also release it under a restrictive license (such as the
    GPL), or no license at all, all rights reserved. At that point, if it does
    become a problem, you can sue.

    Note that both Ruby and Rails are under the MIT license, last I checked -- for
    all of the above reasons.

    > My track record is real, it involves real professors with a pedigree
    > traceable to Dr, W. A. Shewhart, and Dr. W. Edward Deming and
    > the"Statistical Control of quality" movement into software that I was
    > proud to play a role in.


    That's great.

    While you were there, did you take a technical writing course? I'd strongly
    recommend that. A strong pedigree does very little if you can't express your
    ideas.
     
    David Masover, Apr 3, 2010
    #11
  12. thunk

    Seebs Guest

    On 2010-04-03, David Masover <> wrote:
    > Here's the problem: If you can't even explain it properly to a group of
    > professional and very bright Ruby developers, how can you hope to explain
    > to a business type what it entails, certainly to the point where they'll
    > fund you?


    I am wondering if you have ever heard the phrase "dot com startup".

    -s
    --
    Copyright 2010, all wrongs reversed. Peter Seebach /
    http://www.seebs.net/log/ <-- lawsuits, religion, and funny pictures
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_Game_(Scientology) <-- get educated!
     
    Seebs, Apr 3, 2010
    #12
  13. thunk

    Josh Cheek Guest

    [Note: parts of this message were removed to make it a legal post.]

    On Friday 02 April 2010 03:25:10 pm thunk wrote:
    > And I would be most glad to share THAT, but it would take time and
    > resources that I simply do not have.


    How about posting the code for one Boid? You said they are very small so
    presumably amount of code within a Boid would not give away more than you
    care to reveal, but would help others to have a better understanding.
     
    Josh Cheek, Apr 3, 2010
    #13
  14. thunk

    thunk Guest

    On Apr 3, 1:24 am, Josh Cheek <> wrote:
    > [Note:  parts of this message were removed to make it a legal post.]
    >
    > On Friday 02 April 2010 03:25:10 pm thunk wrote:
    >
    > > And I would be most glad to share THAT, but it would take time and
    > > resources that I simply do not have.

    >
    > How about posting the code for one Boid? You said they are very small so
    > presumably amount of code within a Boid would not give away more than you
    > care to reveal, but would help others to have a better understanding.



    Check the time if you really want to. I put that up before the
    request - and i put up the latest and greatest - my hesitation was
    because i was really doing more interesting things in domain#2 but
    those are out of data now. this one is way simple and part of the
    "start up phase" for domain #3 and since I haven't finished that yet i
    don't have any better ones in this domain yet.

    http://wiki.github.com/gkoller/Ruids/a-nekkid-ruid

    and if i may comment, these things are not seen by experts, they are
    the result of a "Expert Session" - they appear in my wee based system
    as the form is filled in so to say - and i'd post screen shots but i
    don't know how yet.


    =========================================================

    On the humor side: I just woke up with a thought that would really
    frustrate some but be humor to others -

    IT'S THE FRAMEWORK ABOUT NOTHING
    (We truly truly love the seinfeld series)


    which is amusing because until you start authoring units and giving
    them hooks in the helperclasses - that's what you have - a newborn
    baby like almost blank sheet to do anything. so, yes, i do see some
    "general utility" around this stuff.

    but what does it do well you ask? well, i've been working on that
    too. and i had the nerve/guts to define what i call "the aluminum
    moment" which i think has a part in getting to that. i defined that
    for you guys here. it has some teeth, to my thinking. it's like the
    golden moments are well serviced but there are some really important
    "aluminum moments" not getting touched. and the web has a role to
    play - clearly - and OO and dynamic - all have a role to play -
    yeeeaaaaa! and my favorite example is the Doctor on the front-line
    seeing something like a classic drug interaction - or a bad hip
    replacement - or whatever. i think i see a clear app there and i
    chose domain #3 partly to be close to it, yet outside of it. i
    thought that was clever. and i will give this away, give my time away,
    give it all away to the folks that could put it to work saving real
    lives and resources (finding a generic would be a piece of cake for
    this approach, fun even.


    soo, I did start not once but three times in software alone. The
    first time we turned into a Division of McGraw-Hill (Aardvark /
    Milwaukee - Tax Dr. Donald Cook, ex-marine, president of Shoreline
    Medical was the founder - I was his FIRST employee / programmer - and
    in 1994 we release Fixed Assets.... bla bla bla but we did sell $8m
    the first seassion if what a salesman told me was true. It was
    written in UCSD Pascal) he's older than I am and loves working with
    "his professors" in washington dc area these days - they give him
    credentials in his medical services.

    I can go on but that was the First one, the 3rd one I have documented
    somewhere and will be on that wiki / I can name names and there is a
    Who's Who professor, books, .... all that stuff attached. double dog
    dare me? they are married, both phds - a paradox :)

    ===================
    Whatever this is, I am personally NOT A START-UP. ok? I retire for
    the 2nd or 3rd time this July (62) , my StatScan corp was founded in
    1990 or so)
    I have zero pressure on that side, but I do have some sense of honor
    in all this, and I'd love to contribute to the "eco- system" (that is
    different, I assume that a trip to the restroom, right?)

    =======================
    stream of consciousness alert:
    we are all perpetual start-ups in some way anyway. take away the
    income stream of a running business for a month or two and that
    feeling comes back, loose a major client and that feeling can come
    back. the minimum resources for this fits like a glove, the guys i
    talk to up here never heard of ruby, not one. but hiring good
    programmers in Milw in the 80's was just as bad - when we moved to
    this glorious peninsula - my line to my wife was "if it is in
    wisconsin it doesn't matter where.... you can guess what i meant - i
    had the very first h8 in wisconsin - had been on backorder for 6-8
    months maybe - the night i picked it up i met some of the greatest
    guys i could imagine - astronomers that "just happen to be hanging
    around" when I picked up that machine. we opened the box together.
    they told me about using computers to hook do tracking on their scopes
    - i think they were programming in forth? - those were the real
    pioneers, not to dodo's that bought "an apple" and thought they were
    the first folks to discover "micros", no sir. and that pascal micro-
    engine machine - those babies were the best/worst greatest thing i
    ever had on my desk in someways, ok? goggle on that - wd was flying
    guys out to do "brain surgery" on my stack of them... its true! my
    us robotics modem somehow puts 300baud and "fast" together :) my 1980
    byte magazine (mcgraw-hill btw) usually had OhioScientic on the back -
    i owned/sold about 20 of those - the manuals were xeroxed - i just did
    then what i'm doing now... but i might have learned a few things.
    UCSD Pascal was a beautiful beautiful thing to me back then - I had a
    sign over my desk that said if: if it's in basic, its wirthless -
    hahaha - i was in battle with the basic guys, i won, but ucsd lost...
    but it was elegant stuff - slow - but beautiful to me. betw that
    pascal and ruby it was a long trek in the dessert - c got it done,
    early c++ was a complete abomination imho - Smalltalk was beautiful
    again but now that was a confusing community to me too - bright bright
    bright guys - java got it done - ahhh is anybody talking about a Ruby
    Micro-engine??? wow - if i got buried with one of those in my casket
    for development on the other-side - that would be something.)
    __ESC__

    sorry, have i established my 'old fart' status? have all the bearded
    ones gone away -who's the oldest dude on this board? are we known
    only to make decent rock-n-rollers? am i really a "statistical
    outlier" here?
     
    thunk, Apr 3, 2010
    #14
  15. thunk

    thunk Guest

    >
    > I am wondering if you have ever heard the phrase "dot com startup".


    The hallmark of a startup would seem to be

    1. 1ots of new ideas,
    2 fairly high expense?
    3. no real income

    i'm rather other the idea hump, actually as said "i backed into this"
    chasing something else in my own time tested way

    2. nope. i retired from that scene 15 years ago when we moved to Door
    County for the better life up here - best sailing in the universe
    (summers).

    3. enough to cover expenses with or without anything like this
    framework which i'm still at a loss to see how it does anything in
    open source but generate calls for support without income -

    4. i'd love some peer acceptance, and didn't like being called a troll
    but i was '' that close to signing off forever from here - like i said
    my pickax book has been all i needed - its the best - until fairly
    recently.

    my wisc sub chap s corp has 20+ years, that would not be a startup,
    right?

    ------------------------

    if this 'framework about nothing' system can be judged to be
    "framework worthy" (another seinfield) by some trusted 3rd party then
    a path could likely be worked out. i would sincerely like that to
    happen. and having resources for optimizing some of this WhiteBoard
    stuff would probably tweak the performance and a demo site would make
    it really nice - and somebody and i chatted once about hooking this up
    to forums - this was the original envisioned system from that first
    phone call - 1000's of computer geeks repeating over and over and over
    about exactly what you'd like a system to know about what is in your
    shopping basket. that's the original circle i wanted to close, as
    said. instead of another posting, the computer hardware junky would
    author a ru'id and it would stand in for him from that point forward.
    that's not saving a life but it would make sure that your "system"
    makes sense. then take "system" and figure - aquariums, kayaks, and
    the other articles of male passsions out there - but i repeat myself.

    thunk
     
    thunk, Apr 3, 2010
    #15
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