JavaScript libraries questions

Discussion in 'Javascript' started by VK, Jun 6, 2009.

  1. VK

    VK Guest

    comp.lang.javascript charter:

    The proposed comp.lang.javascript will be open to discussion on all
    aspects of JavaScript, as it relates to HTML, Java, Perl, the World
    Wide Web in general, and other related languages. The scope of
    discussion will specifically exclude matters which are *solely*
    related to Sun Microsystems, Inc.'s Java language, which should be
    discussed in comp.lang.java.

    "all aspects" includes _all_ aspects together with using 3rd party
    libraries, debugging 3rd party libraries, writing own libraries,
    commenting on technical benefits and disadvantages of different
    libraries.

    It also includes evangelistic discussions of allowance of 3rd party
    library usage as such in Javascript programming, the influence of
    using library X, Y, Z on personal chakras and any other flooding of
    the kind.

    It is important to mention that the second type of topics can be
    started iif (if-and-only-if) the original post explicitly raises
    relevant questions and invites for discussion.

    If anyone is experiencing a single specific descriptive problem while
    using a 3rd party library and asking for help in this group, she or he
    doesn't give a damn neither about others' personal opinions about the
    whole library nor about others' personal opinions on using 3rd party
    libraries as such, nor about others' personal opinions about herself
    for using the/a library.

    This way for a question about a single specific descriptive problem
    while using a 3rd party the answering options are:
    1) answer this particular question if the answer is known
    2) silently ignore the post if the answer is not known or if the
    coding style or approach is in strong disagreement with the personal
    believes of the reader.
    3) if no exact answer is given yet, it is possible to suggest in
    polite form to address the problem to the support forum of the library
    producer. For the most prominent packages for the year 2009 these are
    (alphabetically):

    Adobe AIR framework questions:
    http://forums.adobe.com/community/air/air_general_discussion

    Adobe Flash ActionScript questions:
    http://forums.adobe.com/community/flash/flash_actionscript3
    (ActionScript 3)
    http://forums.adobe.com/community/flash/flash_actionscript
    (ActionScript 2)

    Dojo
    http://www.dojotoolkit.org/forum

    jQuery
    http://groups.google.com/group/jquery-en (mailing list)

    Prototype library and Ruby on Rails framework as related with
    Prototype
    http://groups.google.com/group/prototype-scriptaculous

    A sample answer could be then:
    "Hi, looks like no one here answered yet. You may get quicker answer
    if repost your question at the ... library support forum. Their
    address is ..."
    or
    "Hi, I don't know the answer to your problem but you may repost your
    question at the ... library support forum. Their address is ..."

    If a reader hates all libraries or one particular libraries or just
    doesn't know the right answer then it is a particular problem of a
    particular reader and OP (Original Poster) is not interested in
    knowing about it.

    Threads like http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.javascript/browse_frm/thread/f58fbe6867106bcf
    are not acceptable neither as for a technical newsgroup nor as from
    point of view of most primitives forms of netiquette.
    That particular thread had to contain really only two posts: OP and
    user "ace" answer. It could be one more post like
    "Hi, I don't know the answer to your problem but you may repost your
    question at the jQuery library support forum. Their address is
    http://groups.google.com/group/jquery-en"

    Note 1: Prototype naming problem
    Because the word "prototype" defines a specific entity in Javascript,
    it is sometimes difficult to understand right away if OP is asking
    something about Javascript prototype or about Prototype library. It is
    suggested to always write the library name as Prototype.js despite it
    is not its name but the library file name. This way we will eliminate
    possible confusion.

    Note 2: Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam
    It is possible to mention personal opinion on a/the library after the
    answer is given, at the end of post and without making personal
    attacks to OP just for the fact of using a/the library. Expressing
    such personal opinion can not substitute the answer itself and it can
    not to be the only content of the post. While being close to flooding
    (posting for posting), one can express personal opinions after
    suggesting the relevant forum or mailing list. Then the altered anser
    could be:
    "Hi, I don't know the answer to your problem but you may repost your
    question at the jQuery library support forum. Their address is
    http://groups.google.com/group/jquery-en
    Personally I do not consider jQuery as a good choice because
    (arguments follows)"
    VK, Jun 6, 2009
    #1
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  2. VK wrote:
    > comp.lang.javascript charter:
    >
    > The proposed comp.lang.javascript will be open to discussion on all
    > aspects of JavaScript, as it relates to HTML, Java, Perl, the World
    > Wide Web in general, and other related languages. [...]


    The proposition for a charter of a newsgroup is of no relevance at all to
    what is on-topic in that newsgroup. Relevant is only what the actual
    charter and the newsgroup's FAQ (as an effort to document the newsgroup's
    /status quo/) say.

    Go away.


    PointedEars
    Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn, Jun 6, 2009
    #2
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  3. VK

    ace Guest

    Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn wrote:
    >> The proposed comp.lang.javascript will be open to discussion on all
    >> aspects of JavaScript, as it relates to HTML, Java, Perl, the World
    >> Wide Web in general, and other related languages. [...]

    >
    > The proposition for a charter of a newsgroup is of no relevance at all to
    > what is on-topic in that newsgroup. Relevant is only what the actual


    I don't know if VK posted a proposition (and if he did, why shouldn't
    he?) but I'm curious in which way is his post in opposition with current
    charter?

    >
    > Go away.


    So could you?
    ace, Jun 6, 2009
    #3
  4. VK

    David Mark Guest

    On Jun 6, 2:46 pm, ace <> wrote:
    > Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn wrote:
    > >> The proposed comp.lang.javascript will be open to discussion on all
    > >> aspects of JavaScript, as it relates to HTML, Java, Perl, the World
    > >> Wide Web in general, and other related languages. [...]

    >
    > > The proposition for a charter of a newsgroup is of no relevance at all to
    > > what is on-topic in that newsgroup.  Relevant is only what the actual

    >
    > I don't know if VK posted a proposition (and if he did, why shouldn't
    > he?) but I'm curious in which way is his post in opposition with current
    > charter?


    VK is a nut. Ignore him.

    [snip]
    David Mark, Jun 6, 2009
    #4
  5. VK

    ace Guest

    David Mark wrote:
    >> I don't know if VK posted a proposition (and if he did, why shouldn't
    >> he?) but I'm curious in which way is his post in opposition with current
    >> charter?

    >
    > VK is a nut. Ignore him.


    VK wrote some good arguments in fluent english on the current issues in
    this ng. I wouldn't call him nut.
    ace, Jun 6, 2009
    #5
  6. On Sat, 6 Jun 2009 at 09:18:41, in comp.lang.javascript, VK wrote:

    <snip>
    >iif (if-and-only-if)

    <snip>

    It's iff in real maths books.

    John
    --
    John Harris
    John G Harris, Jun 6, 2009
    #6
  7. VK

    VK Guest

    >   <snip>>iif (if-and-only-if)
    >
    >   <snip>
    >
    > It's iff in real maths books.


    As a keyword it is also in VB but having all different meaning there.
    As if-and-only-if yes, it's a purely math stuff :)
    VK, Jun 6, 2009
    #7
  8. ace wrote:
    > David Mark wrote:
    >>> I don't know if VK posted a proposition (and if he did, why shouldn't
    >>> he?) but I'm curious in which way is his post in opposition with current
    >>> charter?

    >> VK is a nut. Ignore him.

    >
    > VK wrote some good arguments in fluent english on the current issues in
    > this ng. I wouldn't call him nut.


    He is if he ignores the current consensus about libraries in spite of the
    evidence in favor of it, and quotes an outdated proposal for the newsgroup's
    charter (instead of the actual charter) to support his insignificant opinion
    (as he is nothing but an infrequent nuisance of incompetence and
    cluelessness -- in short, a troll -- around here. Search the archives.)


    PointedEars
    Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn, Jun 6, 2009
    #8
  9. VK

    Jorge Guest

    On Jun 6, 11:25 pm, Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <>
    wrote:
    > (...)
    > He is if he ignores the current consensus about libraries (...)


    The "current consensus about libraries" is that libraries are intended
    to :

    1.- ease a web developer's life by providing a walk-around the
    minefield of bugs and heterogeneous DOM implementations in a diversity
    of browsers.

    2.- provide a common and higher-level API than the built-ins.

    Both of which, as you know, are Good Things.

    --
    Jorge.
    Jorge, Jun 6, 2009
    #9
  10. VK

    VK Guest

    > VK wrote:
    > > comp.lang.javascript charter:

    >
    > > The proposed comp.lang.javascript will be open to discussion on all
    > > aspects of JavaScript, as it relates to HTML, Java, Perl, the World
    > > Wide Web in general, and other related languages. [...]

    >
    > The proposition for a charter of a newsgroup is of no relevance at all to
    > what is on-topic in that newsgroup.  Relevant is only what the actual
    > charter


    Your objection is not understood. I quoted the charter as it was
    placed for voting and voted "yes" by the majority of voters Jan 27
    1996. It is the actual and the only group charter. Please see the
    relevant records at news.announce.newgroups where the voting took
    place:

    http://groups.google.com/group/news..._frm/thread/e472637f7141a60d/1cfd3fc1b03fd982

    > and the newsgroup's FAQ (as an effort to document the newsgroup's /statusquo/) say.


    Neither newsgroup's FAQ nor some current "status quo" having any
    relevance to the "allowed" and "forbidden" topics. Only group's
    charter defines that and FAQ - which is not a required requisite of a
    newsgroup - may only express some common interpretation of the charter
    if the charter's wording is ambiguous in some of its parts.
    Say it may be agreed upon that ActionScript should be discussed at
    other forums because "all aspects of JavaScript, as it relates to
    HTML, Java, Perl, the World Wide Web in general" doesn't define
    clearly if a plugin with a proprietary JavaScript version in it is a
    valid topic of the group. Others may argue with it because the charter
    neither explicitly excludes such topics. Either point of view is valid
    and no amount of wording in FAQ invalidates one of them.
    At the same time a purely Java related questions are not valid here
    and there can be no discussion on that.
    VK, Jun 6, 2009
    #10
  11. VK wrote:
    >> VK wrote:
    >>> comp.lang.javascript charter:
    >>> The proposed comp.lang.javascript will be open to discussion on all
    >>> aspects of JavaScript, as it relates to HTML, Java, Perl, the World
    >>> Wide Web in general, and other related languages. [...]

    >> The proposition for a charter of a newsgroup is of no relevance at all to
    >> what is on-topic in that newsgroup. Relevant is only what the actual
    >> charter

    >
    > Your objection is not understood.


    I'm not at all surprised.

    > I quoted the charter as it was placed for voting and voted "yes" by
    > the majority of voters Jan 27 1996.


    A lot of things have changed since then. For example, it would be a pity if
    the charter still named *Netscape* JavaScript, and neither ECMAScript nor
    JScript.

    > It is the actual and the only group charter.


    If so, then that would be unfortunate as it would be out of date, too. The
    newsgroup's tag line surely is.

    See also <http://www.jibbering.com/faq/faq_notes/cljs_charter.html>

    > Please see the relevant records at news.announce.newgroups where the voting
    > took place:


    No.

    > Neither newsgroup's FAQ nor some current "status quo" having any
    > relevance


    Yes, they do. You have a lot to learn about group dynamics.

    > to the "allowed" and "forbidden" topics.


    No topic is forbidden; it is my observation that some topics are just not
    wanted because either they are off-topic or discussion about them has turned
    out to lead nowhere. And as you are not at all a regular contributor to
    this newsgroup (but instead just a troll or a half-wit trying to waste the
    time of knowledgable people by making your ... special brain wiring getting
    just a glimpse at reality), you are in the least likely position to be able
    to judge the very relevant /status quo/ of this newsgroup.

    Go away!


    PointedEars
    Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn, Jun 6, 2009
    #11
  12. VK

    VK Guest

    > > I quoted the charter as it was placed for voting and voted "yes" by
    > > the majority of voters Jan 27 1996.

    >
    > A lot of things have changed since then.  For example, it would be a pity if
    > the charter still named *Netscape* JavaScript, and neither ECMAScript nor
    > JScript.


    <quote>
    CHARTER: comp.lang.javascript

    The proposed comp.lang.javascript will be open to discussion on all
    aspects of JavaScript, as it relates to HTML, Java, Perl, the World
    Wide Web in general, and other related languages. The scope of
    discussion will specifically exclude matters which are *solely*
    related to Sun Microsystems, Inc.'s Java language, which should be
    discussed in comp.lang.java.
    </quote>

    Please point me to a single occurrence of "Netscape" in the text. For
    the matter of "JavaScript" as the name of a particular scripting
    language of a particular producer and not any other versions then it
    is your personal interpretation of the charter. You may use in your
    personal posts "Javascript" instead or use euphemistic clauses like
    "the language we are talking about", "the language which name should
    not be pronounced" etc.


    > > It is the actual and the only group charter.

    >
    > If so, then that would be unfortunate as it would be out of date, too.  The
    > newsgroup's tag line surely is.


    If you are in strong disagreement with the charter of this newsgroup
    then leave it to open your own with the desired text. I personally do
    not see in what aspects it is so outdated that prevents the group from
    the normal functioning. Therefore I am comfortable to stay here.

    > See also <http://www.jibbering.com/faq/faq_notes/cljs_charter.html>


    Yes, it is one of copies of the charter and rationale from
    news.announce.newgroups

    > > Please see the relevant records at news.announce.newgroups where the voting
    > > took place:

    >
    > No.


    "No" what? It didn't took place? It didn't took place there? It was
    not a voting? Please learn to give unambiguous answers.

    > > Neither newsgroup's FAQ nor some current "status quo" having any
    > > relevance

    >
    > Yes, they do.  You have a lot to learn about group dynamics.


    Please learn to quote. I wrote "Neither newsgroup's FAQ nor some
    current "status quo" having any
    relevance to the "allowed" and "forbidden" topics". - not as if I
    denied any relevance at all to FAQ as may be concluded from your
    answer. Assuming it was a mistake and you answered to what I wrote and
    not to what you quoted:

    No they don't. Some people may think they do, but it is of no
    relevance to the Usenet functioning.
    VK, Jun 6, 2009
    #12
  13. VK

    ace Guest

    Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn wrote:
    > ace wrote:
    >>> VK is a nut. Ignore him.

    >> VK wrote some good arguments in fluent english on the current issues in
    >> this ng. I wouldn't call him nut.

    >
    > He is if he ignores the current consensus about libraries in spite of the
    > evidence in favor of it,


    Irrelevant.
    Even if so called consensus exists, this is still *public* Usenet
    newsgroup and not someones private forum.

    >and quotes an outdated proposal for the newsgroup's
    > charter (instead of the actual charter)


    He quoted official ng charter; you can always unsubscribe if you don't
    like what is written there.

    >to support his insignificant opinion
    > (as he is nothing but an infrequent nuisance of incompetence and
    > cluelessness -- in short, a troll -- around here. Search the archives.)



    And finally Ad hominem; your arguments are weak.
    ace, Jun 7, 2009
    #13
  14. ace wrote:
    > Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn wrote:
    >> ace wrote:
    >>>> VK is a nut. Ignore him.
    >>> VK wrote some good arguments in fluent english on the current issues in
    >>> this ng. I wouldn't call him nut.

    >> He is if he ignores the current consensus about libraries in spite of the
    >> evidence in favor of it,

    >
    > Irrelevant.
    > Even if so called consensus exists, this is still *public* Usenet
    > newsgroup and not someones private forum.


    Again, for the intellectually challenged among us: No questions are
    forbidden-by-law, of course, but some questions are obviously not wanted and
    thus they are unlikely to get answered in a way that pleases the questioner.

    Who the heck are you anyway?


    PointedEars
    Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn, Jun 7, 2009
    #14
  15. VK

    VK Guest

    On Jun 7, 4:24 am, Conrad Lender <> wrote:
    > I really, *really* don't want to involve myself in this, but I couldn't
    > help noticing that VK and ace appeared at the same time, don't use a
    > real name, and have the same unusual habit of omitting "the" and "a" in
    > their sentences. They also appear to agree with each other. Make of that
    > what you will. Could be a coincidence.


    I assure you it is a coincidence and I am not a clone :)
    I used to post rather intensively in this group before
    http://groups.google.com/groups/pro...ACyz_OQrQcyYz3r2FO6G_E2ys9p7FBvuYqcsrUPIQKVkQ
    but left it for a while.

    Also let me assure you that anyone occasionally stating that Thomas is
    acting as an a**hole is a VK's bot or a person hired by VK. There
    could be much more natural reasons for that :)
    VK, Jun 7, 2009
    #15
  16. VK

    VK Guest

    > Also let me assure you that anyone occasionally stating that Thomas is
    > acting as an a**hole is a VK's bot or a person hired by VK. There
    > could be much more natural reasons for that :)


    .... that not everyone ... of course :)
    VK, Jun 7, 2009
    #16
  17. VK

    ace Guest

    Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn wrote:
    >>> evidence in favor of it,

    >> Irrelevant.
    >> Even if so called consensus exists, this is still *public* Usenet
    >> newsgroup and not someones private forum.

    >
    > Again, for the intellectually challenged among us: No questions are
    > forbidden-by-law, of course, but some questions are obviously not wanted


    You mean, like Macbeth?
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ukqzcC_jf_0

    > and
    > thus they are unlikely to get answered in a way that pleases the questioner.


    If you don't like something and are unable to participate in
    constructive manner, use your kill file (reading the netiquette could
    help too) or just say the anti-Macbeth spell.

    > Who the heck are you anyway?


    Participant of this ng, and you are?
    ace, Jun 7, 2009
    #17
  18. VK

    ace Guest

    Conrad Lender wrote:
    > I really, *really* don't want to involve myself in this,


    :)

    >but I couldn't
    > help noticing that VK and ace appeared at the same time, don't use a
    > real name, and have the same unusual habit of omitting "the" and "a" in
    > their sentences. They also appear to agree with each other. Make of that
    > what you will. Could be a coincidence.


    No, no; think again, there are to many similarities to be a coincidence. :)
    ace, Jun 7, 2009
    #18
  19. In comp.lang.javascript message <>, Sat,
    6 Jun 2009 19:30:34, Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <>
    posted:
    >VK wrote:
    >> comp.lang.javascript charter:
    >>
    >> The proposed comp.lang.javascript will be open to discussion on all
    >> aspects of JavaScript, as it relates to HTML, Java, Perl, the World
    >> Wide Web in general, and other related languages. [...]

    >
    >The proposition for a charter of a newsgroup is of no relevance at all to
    >what is on-topic in that newsgroup. Relevant is only what the actual
    >charter and the newsgroup's FAQ (as an effort to document the newsgroup's
    >/status quo/) say.


    I will grant you that VK should have distinguished more clearly between
    the paragraph that was a full quotation of the Charter as given in the
    FAQ Notes and the material he added after it; but he did clearly label
    the beginning of the quotation, as you show above. The Notes clearly
    state that the version as quoted is the version as passed.

    Granted, it should have been rewritten before the vote.

    AISB, you are frequently over-hasty; you are a careless bludnerer.

    --
    (c) John Stockton, nr London UK. ???@merlyn.demon.co.uk Turnpike v6.05 MIME.
    Web <URL:http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/> - FAQish topics, acronyms, & links.
    Check boilerplate spelling -- error is a public sign of incompetence.
    Never fully trust an article from a poster who gives no full real name.
    Dr J R Stockton, Jun 7, 2009
    #19
  20. Dr J R Stockton wrote:
    > AISB, you are frequently over-hasty; you are a careless bludnerer.


    (sic!)

    YMMD.


    PointedEars
    Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn, Jun 7, 2009
    #20
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