Keyboard Layout: Dvorak vs Colemak: is it Worthwhile to Improve theDvorak Layout?

[Dotan Cohen]

For keyboarding (in the piano/organ sense) the weakest finger is not
the fifth/pinky but the fourth.
Because for the fifth you will notice that the natural movement is to
stiffen the finger and then use a slight outward arm-swing; for thumb,
index and middle, they of course have their own strength.

The fourth has neither advantage.  IOW qwerty is not so bad as it
could have been if it were qewrty (or asd was sad)

Thank you rusi! Tell me, where can I read more about the advantages of
each finger? Googling turns up nothing. My intention is to improved
the Noah ergonomic keyboard layout. Thanks!

 

[Chris Angelico]

That's what I was referring to.  That's a very common belief, but it's
nonsense.

Competing rumour: The layout was designed such that "typewriter" could
be typed out using only the top row, to improve demo speed by a factor
of three.

ChrisA

 

[Dotan Cohen]

Competing rumour: The layout was designed such that "typewriter" could
be typed out using only the top row, to improve demo speed by a factor
of three.

Utter nonsense. The QWERTY keyboard was - and this is verified fact -
designed the way is was because the inventor's mother in law's
initials were AS and his father is law was DF. The letter combinations
JK and L; were his childrens' initials.

 

[Chris Angelico]

Utter nonsense. The QWERTY keyboard was - and this is verified fact -
designed the way is was because the inventor's mother in law's
initials were AS and his father is law was DF. The letter combinations
JK and L; were his childrens' initials.

He had a son called Harry ;emicolon? That's nearly as bad as Robert');
DROP TABLE Students; --.

ChrisA

 

[rusi]

Thank you rusi! Tell me, where can I read more about the advantages of
each finger? Googling turns up nothing. My intention is to improved
the Noah ergonomic keyboard layout. Thanks!

Dont know how to answer that! I only have my experience to go by

If you've spent a childhood and many of your adult hours breaking your
hands on Czerny
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Czerny
and Hanon eg exercise 4 http://www.hanon-online.com/the-virtuoso-pianist/part-i/exercise-n-4/
you will come to similar conclusions.

I should warn however that even for a modern electronic piano the
action is larger and heavier than a typical (computer) keyboard and
for a real/acoustic piano with a foot long slice of wood moved for
each keystroke its probably an order of magnitude heavier.

So its not exactly clear how much the experience of one carries over
to the other

 

[rusi]

Thanks. From testing small movements with my fingers I see that the
fourth finger is in fact a bit weaker than the last finger, but more
importantly, it is much less dexterous. Good to know!

Most of the piano technique-icians emphasis, especially those of the
last century like Hanon, was to cultivate 'independence' of the
fingers. The main target of these attacks being the 4th finger.

The number of potential-pianists who ruined their hands and lives
chasing this holy grail is unknown

 

[Ian Kelly]

numerical keypad is useful to many. Most people can't touch type. Even
for touch typist, many doesn't do the number keys. So, when they need
to type credit, phone number, etc, they go for the number pad.

It's not about being *able* to touch type with the number keys in the
main section. When you're doing primarily numerical data entry, the
number pad is typically much faster to touch type with than the main
number keys. In the main section, the number keys are too far removed
from the home row to be able to type with any speed, and if you
reposition your hands directly above them then the Enter, decimal, and
Shift keys are no longer easily accessible. Touch typing on the
number pad gives you everything you're likely to need in easy reach of
your right hand, and if you need something else as well then your left
hand is free to hover over it.

 

[Xah Lee]

And disproportionate usage of fingers. On QWERTY the weakest fingers
(pinkies) do almost 1/4 of the keypresses when modifier keys, enter,
tab, and backspace are taken into account.

I'm developing a QWERTY-based layout that moves the load off the
pinkies and onto the index fingers:http://dotancohen.com/eng/noah_ergonomic_keyboard_layout.html

There is a Colemak version in the works as well.

u r aware that there are already tens of layouts, each created by
programer, thinking that they can create the best layout?

if not, check
〈Computer Keyboards, Layouts, Hotkeys, Macros, RSI ⌨〉
xahlee.org/Periodic_dosage_dir/keyboarding.html

on layout section. Lots people all creating layouts.

also, you want to put {Enter, Tab}, etc keys in the middle, but I
don't understand from ur website how u gonna do that since it requires
keyboard hardware modification. e.g. r u creating key layout on PC
keyboard or are you creating hardware keyboard Key layout? The former
is a dime a million, the latter is rare but also there are several
sites all trying to do it. Talk is cheap, the hardest part is actually
to get money to finance and manufacture it. The latest one, which i
deem good, is Truely Ergonomic keyboard. It sells for $200 and is in
pre-order only now.

Xah

 

[Xah Lee]

Most of the piano technique-icians emphasis, especially those of the
last century like Hanon, was to cultivate 'independence' of the
fingers.  The main target of these attacks being the 4th finger.

The number of potential-pianists who ruined their hands and lives
chasing this holy grail is unknown

Hi rusi, am afaid going to contradict what u say here.

i pretty much mastered Hanon 60. All of it, but it was now 8 years
ago. The idea that pinky is stronger than 4th is silly. I can't fathom
any logic or science to support that. Perhaps what u meant is that in
many situations the use of pinky can be worked around because it in at
the edge of your hand so you can apply chopping motion or similar.
(which, is BAD if you want to develope piano finger skill) However,
that's entirely different than saying pinky being stronger than 4th.

there's many ways we can cookup tests right away to see. e.g. try to
squeeze a rubber ball with 4th and thumb. Repeat with pink + thumb.
Or, reverse exercise by stretching a rubber band wrapped on the 2
fingers of interest. You can easy see that pinky isn't stronger.

Xah

 

[Dotan Cohen]

u r aware that there are already tens of layouts, each created by
programer, thinking that they can create the best layout?

Yes. Mine is better
Had Stallman not heard of VI when he set out to write Emacs?

if not, check
〈Computer Keyboards, Layouts, Hotkeys, Macros, RSI ⌨〉
xahlee.org/Periodic_dosage_dir/keyboarding.html

on layout section. Lots people all creating layouts.

also, you want to put {Enter, Tab}, etc keys in the middle, but I
don't understand from ur website how u gonna do that since it requires
keyboard hardware modification. e.g. r u creating key layout on PC
keyboard or are you creating hardware keyboard Key layout? The former
is a dime a million, the latter is rare but also there are several
sites all trying to do it. Talk is cheap, the hardest part is actually
to get money to finance and manufacture it. The latest one, which i
deem good, is Truely Ergonomic keyboard. It sells for $200 and is in
pre-order only now.

I ordered the Truley Ergonomic keyboard, I waited for half a year
after delivery was supposed to happen to request my money back. Too
many delays, so in the end I bought a Ducky mechanical (Cherry Browns)
instead.

I am writing a software keyboard layout. I'm actually having a hard
time moving the modifier keys (Alt, Ctrl) to a new location. If you
know how to do that I would much appreciate some advice, I'll post the
problem here or in private mail.

Thanks, Lee. (or should that be Thanks, Xah?)

 

[Xah Lee]

Yes. Mine is better
Had Stallman not heard of VI when he set out to write Emacs?








I ordered the Truley Ergonomic keyboard, I waited for half a year
after delivery was supposed to happen to request my money back. Too
many delays, so in the end I bought a Ducky mechanical (Cherry Browns)
instead.

I am writing a software keyboard layout. I'm actually having a hard
time moving the modifier keys (Alt, Ctrl) to a new location. If you
know how to do that I would much appreciate some advice, I'll post the
problem here or in private mail.

Thanks, Lee. (or should that be Thanks, Xah?)

thanks. didn't know about Ducky keyboard. Looks good. Also nice to
hear your experience about Truly Ergonomic keyboard.

no actually i don't know how to make normal letter keys as (ctrl, alt)
modifiers. You'll need a usb hid remapper. (there's a couple for mac
os x i linked on my site but i couldn't verify cuz am now on a 6 years
old powerpc with outdated mac os x) For Windows, Microsoft made a
layout maker. I haven't used it so i don't know if it allows mapping
letter keys as modifier. Have you tried it?

i don't know much about the subject but from what i read am guessing
it's possible, because each key just send up/down signals. (whether
you are using usb or ps/2 makes a difference too.)

(am assumbing above that you want to put modifiers in normal letter
key positions. But if all you want to do is swap modifier among
themselves, that's pretty easy. Lots of tools to do that for mac and
windows.)

But even if you succeded in putting modifiers to letter key positions,
you may run into problems with key ghosting, because the circuits are
desigend to prevent ghosting on qwerty layout only (with mod keys in
their normal positions). Unless your keyboard is actually full n-key-
roll-over.

maybe some of these are useful info, but maybe you are quite beyond
that. Thanks for your info too. Good luck.

just Xah

 

[Dotan Cohen]

thanks. didn't know about Ducky keyboard. Looks good. Also nice to
hear your experience about Truly Ergonomic keyboard.

I like it, see my first-hour review here:
http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:18154

no actually i don't know how to make normal letter keys as (ctrl, alt)
modifiers. You'll need a usb hid remapper. (there's a couple for mac
os x i linked on my site but i couldn't verify cuz am now on a 6 years
old powerpc with outdated mac os x) For Windows, Microsoft made a
layout maker. I haven't used it so i don't know if it allows mapping
letter keys as modifier. Have you tried it?

I use Kubuntu Linux.

i don't know much about the subject but from what i read am guessing
it's possible, because each key just send up/down signals. (whether
you are using usb or ps/2 makes a difference too.)

(am assumbing above that you want to put modifiers in normal letter
key positions. But if all you want to do is swap modifier among
themselves, that's pretty easy. Lots of tools to do that for mac and
windows.)

Actually, most of the modifiers are just switched among themselves.
Only Win is in a normal-keyboard location.

But even if you succeded in putting modifiers to letter key positions,
you may run into problems with key ghosting, because the circuits are
desigend to prevent ghosting on qwerty layout only (with mod keys in
their normal positions). Unless your keyboard is actually full n-key-
roll-over.

I doubt that this is n-key rollover, but it is I think 6-key rollover
and in any case I personally use sticky keys as I have difficulty
pressing more than one key at a time. But in the general sense that is
good to know, if other people use the layout they will need to be
aware of that. Thanks!

maybe some of these are useful info, but maybe you are quite beyond
that. Thanks for your info too. Good luck.

 just Xah

Thanks Xah! I will not be online for the next three weeks, so a reply
will be much delayed!

 

[Xah Lee]

I like it, see my first-hour review here:http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:18154

very nice review! and on geekhack.org too — the hardcore keyboard mod site!
I enjoyed reading it.

I use Kubuntu Linux.

i only started to use linux this month, from 10 years hiatus. First
thing to do there is remap keys to the way i like of course. But am
not familiar on how-to there. Seems xmodmap is becoming obsolete and
XKB is in place. There's a couple nice sites about XKB but havn't had
a chance to study them yet. May i ask you a few questions down the
road? (maybe we can add each other on google talk or some social
network)

(off to email)

Xah

 

[Lie Ryan]

Hi rusi, am afaid going to contradict what u say here.

i pretty much mastered Hanon 60. All of it, but it was now 8 years
ago. The idea that pinky is stronger than 4th is silly. I can't fathom
any logic or science to support that. Perhaps what u meant is that in
many situations the use of pinky can be worked around because it in at
the edge of your hand so you can apply chopping motion or similar.
(which, is BAD if you want to develope piano finger skill) However,
that's entirely different than saying pinky being stronger than 4th.

there's many ways we can cookup tests right away to see. e.g. try to
squeeze a rubber ball with 4th and thumb. Repeat with pink + thumb.
Or, reverse exercise by stretching a rubber band wrapped on the 2
fingers of interest. You can easy see that pinky isn't stronger.

Except that the actual finger strength themselves are not very relevant;
the dexterity of the fingers turned out to matter more because pressing
the keys in a keyboard does not actually take a lot of power.

Finger strength is even less important in typing than piano since, since
the character produced by power press and light press are the same.

 

[rusi]

Except that the actual finger strength themselves are not very relevant;
the dexterity of the fingers turned out to matter more because pressing
the keys in a keyboard does not actually take a lot of power.

Actually there are 3 factors: strength, dexterity and independence.
Speaking somewhat simplistically,
strength corresponds to how hard one can hit a note,
dexterity to how fast one can play,
independence to.. well independence eg fugal/multi-voice music
needs more independence -- both physical and intellectual -- than
harmony/chord based music

In Bach's introduction to his 2 and 3 part inventions he indicates his
intention:

An honest guide, wherewith lovers of the clavier, and especially those
anxious to learn, are shown a clear method not only how to learn to
play neatly in two parts, but further to play correctly and well in
three obbligato parts; and at the same time not only to acquire good
inventiones (ideas) but to work them out well; but above all to get a
cantabile style of playing and in addition to get a strong taste for
composition.

Likewise in Donald F Tovey's commentary on the fugue in Beethoven's
Hammerklavier he cautions:
"It is three voices, not two fists that unite..."

 

[Lie Ryan]

Actually there are 3 factors: strength, dexterity and independence.

In piano playing yes; but in typing dexterity is the most important
factor. When typing, you don't usually need to press multiple keys at
the same time except for capitals (or if you're an emacs user) and even
when you do the keyboard will still correctly register the keypresses
(unlike playing piano, which may produce different sound), also the
range of movement in typing is much less than a piano, so finger
independence aren't as necessary in typing.

 

[rusi]

In piano playing yes; but in typing dexterity is the most important
factor. When typing, you don't usually need to press multiple keys at
the same time except for capitals (or if you're an emacs user) and even
when you do the keyboard will still correctly register the keypresses
(unlike playing piano, which may produce different sound), also the
range of movement in typing is much less than a piano, so finger
independence aren't as necessary in typing.

A quick look at openoffice's autocorrect table shows entries like

ahve have
alwyas always
amde made

What makes the error-entries more natural than the correct ones?

I would suggest its an excess of independence required of the correct
ones
If 'da' is LH and 'di' is RH
da di da di
is easier to type fast than
da da di da

In fact da da di da
is probably harder than da da da da

IIUC dvorak's advantage (one of them) is that it aims for a rhythmic
alternation of LH and RH