Microsoft just fined US$ 1.35 billion by European antitrust regulator

C

cwdjrxyz

Microsoft was just fined US$ 1.35 billion by the European antitrust
regulator. View the story at the NY Times at
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/28/technology/28soft.html , but simple
free registration may be required. Microsoft has now been required to
pay over 2.3 billion total as a result of this fight.

I do not expect an antitrust ruling to be made in the US soon, as the
current federal adminstration is quite big-business friendly. However,
after the elections, all bets are off. In the past Microsoft was
nearly required to break up a few years ago, but they were able to
avoid this.
 
T

Travis Newbury

Microsoft was just fined US$ 1.35 billion by the European antitrust
regulator. View the story at the NY Times athttp://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/28/technology/28soft.html, but simple
free registration may be required. Microsoft has now been required to
pay over 2.3 billion total as a result of this fight.

That is because the UE is useless bureaucracy at best and what better
way to get money than to use the courts to steal it from a successful
American company.
I do not expect an antitrust ruling to be made in the US soon, as the
current federal adminstration is quite big-business friendly.

No, they are free enterprise friendly. there is a difference.
However,
after the elections, all bets are off. In the past Microsoft was
nearly required to break up a few years ago, but they were able to
avoid this.

Yea, lets break up a successful company.... Governments (especially
socialist leaning ones like many found in Europe) can only screw up
business. (check out how well socialism and government control is
working for France...) When governments try to make things "fair"
they tend to **** something up. So how's that class envy, and
redistribution of wealth working out for you?

Whine, moan, and complain about how it's "not fair". Nothing but a
bunch of lazy piss ants. Let sue, lets take them to court. Dumb
fucking liberals. Get off your asses and try to better yourself
rather than bring the successful down to your level.

There, I feel better now.
 
M

mrcakey

Travis Newbury said:
Yea, lets break up a successful company.... Governments (especially
socialist leaning ones like many found in Europe) can only screw up
business. (check out how well socialism and government control is
working for France...) When governments try to make things "fair"
they tend to **** something up. So how's that class envy, and
redistribution of wealth working out for you?

Whine, moan, and complain about how it's "not fair". Nothing but a
bunch of lazy piss ants. Let sue, lets take them to court. Dumb
fucking liberals. Get off your asses and try to better yourself
rather than bring the successful down to your level.

There, I feel better now.

It *is* ridiculous that they should be fined like that. Much as I hate
their guts I don't think they've done enough to deserve it in this
instance - the fine was actually levied because they were charging too much
to companies for trust information, even though the EU never set a price in
their previous ruling beyond the fairly nebulus 'fair and reasonable'. That
said, if you want to play in market, you have to abide by the market's
rules. If you don't like it, you're free to sell your wares elsewhere -
how's them free market policies for ya?

Where the EU *should* be getting antsy with American software companies is
the likes of Adobe. The scum charge £1600 for Design Premium here in the
yUK; $1800 in the US, i.e. almost half the price. Even if you download it.
They offer the most ridiculously specious excuses for the difference, but
the truth is they're simply abusing what is a de facto monopoly - if you're
a design professional there are simply no viable alternatives to Flash and
Photoshop.

And what is your problem with France? Their socialism and supposed
government control (they're actually a lot more free than US citizens in
Bush's climate of fear) leaves them with the 6th largest economy in the
world. Or are you just down on them cos they didn't kow tow to your immoral
oil hunt like our lily-livered leaders did?

And stop using the word liberal as a pejorative. Liberalism is about
fairness and freedom - two of the things your founding fathers were quite
keen on.

+mrcakey
 
T

Travis Newbury

It *is* ridiculous that they should be fined like that...
And what is your problem with France?

No problem with France specifically, only using them ans an example of
socialism and government control running a muck and destroying a
nation.

Frances economy is in a shambles right now (google it) with
unemployment running anywhere between 8 and 16 percent (depending on
how you calculate it) Sorry, socialism and government control of the
economy has never worked.

they're actually a lot more free than US citizens in
Bush's climate of fear

How are they more free?
And stop using the word liberal as a pejorative. Liberalism is about
fairness and freedom - two of the things your founding fathers were quite
keen on.

By strict definition that is true, in reality modern liberalism is
nothing more that socialism, wealth re-distribution, and control.
 
T

Travis Newbury

Where the EU *should* be getting antsy with American software companies is
the likes of Adobe. The scum charge £1600 for Design Premium here in the
yUK; $1800 in the US, i.e. almost half the price. Even if you download it..
They offer the most ridiculously specious excuses for the difference, but
the truth is they're simply abusing what is a de facto monopoly - if you're
a design professional there are simply no viable alternatives to Flash and
Photoshop.

No argument there about adobe products being the way to go when design
is concerned. Sure there are other products out there that try to do
the same thing, and Flash SWF format is open source so you don't
really need Flash to create SWFs, but none of the others are the
quality of Adobe. Two thumbs up for producing/maintaining a great
line of products. And I LOVE the way all the adobe products are now
integrated. But....

So it is actually less expensive for you to fly to the US and buy the
software at a retail store and fly back home. I am interested in what
they tell you the reason for the price difference is, even with the
download. Can you share?
 
D

David Segall

Travis Newbury said:
That is because the UE is useless bureaucracy at best and what better
way to get money than to use the courts to steal it from a successful
American company.


No, they are free enterprise friendly. there is a difference.


Yea, lets break up a successful company.... Governments (especially
socialist leaning ones like many found in Europe) can only screw up
business. (check out how well socialism and government control is
working for France...) When governments try to make things "fair"
they tend to **** something up. So how's that class envy, and
redistribution of wealth working out for you?

Whine, moan, and complain about how it's "not fair". Nothing but a
bunch of lazy piss ants. Let sue, lets take them to court. Dumb
fucking liberals. Get off your asses and try to better yourself
rather than bring the successful down to your level.
Here is a rather more objective comparison of the United States
economy compared to the European "socialists". It dates from 20
January 2001 till yesterday so that you can see where the currency of
the current "free enterprise friendly" administration is heading.
<http://tinyurl.com/ynpeua>.
 
M

mrcakey

No argument there about adobe products being the way to go when design
is concerned. Sure there are other products out there that try to do
the same thing, and Flash SWF format is open source so you don't
really need Flash to create SWFs, but none of the others are the
quality of Adobe. Two thumbs up for producing/maintaining a great
line of products. And I LOVE the way all the adobe products are now
integrated. But....

So it is actually less expensive for you to fly to the US and buy the
software at a retail store and fly back home. I am interested in what
they tell you the reason for the price difference is, even with the
download. Can you share?

It was VERY tempted to do just that - romantic weekend in New York with my
girlfriend and cheap laptop and software. We were both too busy though,
plus I don't like flying plus it's just cleaner for the accountant to write
it down as an expense when I have a UK receipt for it.

Here then is Adobe's standard email response, or the part of it that relates
to downloads anyway:

It's understandable why customers would expect to be able to purchase
the same product at the same price when ordering and downloading
directly from the Adobe Web site at www.adobe.com. Today, however, we
still sell the majority of our products through traditional retail
channels, and we optimize our pricing for that way of doing business. We
depend on our retail partners in local markets to help us reach as many
customers as possible, and we have a policy of not undercutting them on
price. In addition, the Creative Suite 3 applications are large and
require significant time to download. For many customers, online
downloads will not serve as a reasonable purchase option for some time.
However, as bandwidth increases and customer expectations change, we'll
need to investigate ways to optimize our pricing for this approach.

Furthermore, some higher regional costs will remain regardless of the
method of purchase. For example, customers will still read about our
products through local press to whom we reach out; they will meet local
Adobe sales people who conduct seminars, participate in user groups, and
visit large customers; and they will rely on support resources that
Adobe makes available in these markets. All of these efforts impact the
business costs of securing the sale, whether that sale is delivered
online or in a box. However, we always take customer feedback seriously,
and we'll be considering customer input as we explore ways to adjust our
pricing in the future. Any such changes would take considerable
investigation and analysis, so we do not plan to modify our pricing
approach for the Creative Suite 3 products.

Adobe does not directly sell North American versions of its creative
products to European or
other customers. For example, the Adobe website in North America
(www.adobe.com) only
accepts credit cards with North American billing addresses. We limit
online purchase this
way to support local resellers in Europe and other regions who do not
have access to the same
pricing.
However, nothing prevents European customers from purchasing North
American
products from other distribution channels. Should you decide to do this,
please keep the
following in mind:
.. You must pay the correct import duties and local taxes to maintain
legal software.
.. You should be careful about buying from a reputable source to ensure
that you receive appropriate
software.
.. You will not be eligible for support for the product. Your serial
number maps to the region in
which you purchased the software and determines your support
eligibility. European customers
who purchase North American versions may not use those serial numbers to
receive support in
Europe, nor are they eligible for support in the United States.
Under certain circumstances, you may be able to convert a North American
serial number to
a European serial number to receive local support:
.. If you can provide proof, such as an invoice, that you legitimately
purchased the product from a
European source.
.. If you can demonstrate that you purchased the product while living in
North America and are
now moving back to Europe (this requires a proof of purchase and a proof
of residency, such as
a Visa or a photocopy of a North American driver's license).
If you meet either criteria, you can then be issued a new European
serial number that will
enable you to get support locally in Europe.

We hope this answers all of your questions.

Should you require any further information, please do not hesitate to
contact us.

Yours Sincerely,

Joel Williams
Adobe Customer Service


+mrcakey
 
T

Travis Newbury

Here is a rather more objective comparison of the United States
economy compared to the European "socialists". It dates from 20
January 2001 till yesterday so that you can see where the currency of
the current "free enterprise friendly" administration is heading.
<http://tinyurl.com/ynpeua>.

The American socialists (read that both democrats and republicans with
the republican being slightly less socialistic in their policies) are
the cause of that with new regulations, taxes, controls, etc... They
have hardly left the economy alone. The only way a free market works
is if you leave it alone. The minute you start trying to regulate it
you get the graph you shared.
 
T

Toby A Inkster

Travis said:
That is because the UE is useless bureaucracy at best and what better
way to get money than to use the courts to steal it from a successful
American company.

If I were to go to the US, I would not expect to have the freedom to
ignore local laws. Likewise, if Microsoft wishes to do business in the EU,
then it's fair to expect them to abide by European laws.
Yea, lets break up a successful company.... Governments (especially
socialist leaning ones like many found in Europe) can only screw up
business. (check out how well socialism and government control is
working for France...) When governments try to make things "fair"
they tend to **** something up. So how's that class envy, and
redistribution of wealth working out for you?

Purely using nominal GDP as a measure of market success, the EU is the
most successful market in the world.

So it seems to be working out pretty well.

--
Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS
[Geek of HTML/SQL/Perl/PHP/Python/Apache/Linux]
[OS: Linux 2.6.17.14-mm-desktop-9mdvsmp, up 29 days, 18:45.]

Bottled Water
http://tobyinkster.co.uk/blog/2008/02/18/bottled-water/
 
D

David Segall

Travis Newbury said:
The American socialists (read that both democrats and republicans with
the republican being slightly less socialistic in their policies) are
the cause of that with new regulations, taxes, controls, etc... They
have hardly left the economy alone. The only way a free market works
is if you leave it alone. The minute you start trying to regulate it
you get the graph you shared.

Here is the same graph expanded to include the Democrat administration
from 20 January 1993. <http://tinyurl.com/2hpj8x>. Note the drastic
decline when the "slightly less socialistic" Republican administration
took over in 2001.

You said that the Euro was the currency of "socialist leaning ones
like many found in Europe" and you agree that it is gaining value
against the U.S. dollar. Are you now arguing that the Republican
administration is more socialist than most Europeans?
 
T

Toby A Inkster

Travis said:
The American socialists (read that both democrats and republicans with
the republican being slightly less socialistic in their policies) are
the cause of that with new regulations, taxes, controls, etc... They
have hardly left the economy alone. The only way a free market works is
if you leave it alone. The minute you start trying to regulate it you
get the graph you shared.

All markets *require* some form of regulation. You think they don't? You
think that anyone should be able to sell anything at any price?

What about me downloading a song for 99p from iTunes and selling it for
20p to 100 different people? Copyright violation? That's a form of market
regulation. What about selling milkshakes outside schools, with rat
droppings in them? Public health? That's a form of market regulation.

Market regulation is needed for five (that I can think of, possibly others
too) reasons:

1. To prevent monopolies and cartels. This is very basic free market
stuff. Free markets rely on consumers being able to choose between
competing providers of good and services.

Consider the following three supermarkets: Megamart, PriceCo and
Waterson's, which command 40%, 30% and 20% of the supermarket market share
respectively.

If the number Megamart buys out Priceco and Waterson's, then many
consumers will have very little choice about where they do their weekly
shopping, and the company can charge whatever they like for products of
dubious quality. Theoretically a new supermarket chain could be started by
someone aiming to undercut Megamart and/or offer better quality products,
but the barrier to entry is enormous when entering a monopolised market --
the massive advertising budget aimed against you alone will blow your
start-up business out of the water. A situation like this is not just bad
for consumers: it's bad for small businesses too.

Maybe Megamart decides not to buy the other two chains, and instead their
chairmen all have a secret meeting and decide to double to price of all
canned goods. This is known as a cartel. Even though they're not
technically a monopoly, as Priceco and Waterson's remain separate
companies, they effectively form a single pricing bloc, so from a
consumer's point of view they might as well be one.

2. To ensure openness. To be able to make choices on their consumption,
people need to accurately compare the products and services offered to
them by competing businesses. Add a bit of market regulation and you make
this possible.

Say, you enforce a requirement for milkshake salesmen to publish full and
accurate lists of ingredients on their product packaging. Then people
could make an informed choice between a £1.20 milkshake that contained rat
droppings and £1.50 milkshake that didn't.

3. To protect consumers. Having a healthy economy is good, but it's not an
end in itself -- we desire a strong economy to ensure people a decent
standard of living: to be happy. Without protecting consumers from the
small proportion of businesses that turn out to me unscrupulous, you end
up sacrificing the population's overall happiness for a small amount of
additional economic success, and then you're missing the whole point of
why you wanted that success to begin with.

Whatsmore, a consumer constantly worried about being taken for a ride by
rogue traders will be more frugal with their money. The free flow of money
is what keeps a market economy working.

4. To protect employees. OK, in many industries strong unions are
sufficient and government regulation is not required. But some sort of
oversight is needed to prevent companies from paying poverty-level wages,
sacking women who request maternity leave, sacking people once they hit
50, sacking people for whatever reason they want really... hell, why don't
we sack her for refusing to sleep with the managing director?!

Again, this relates slightly to the second point -- if companies are
forced to be open about their unethical treatment of employees, consumers
can boycott them. But boycotts against Nestle and Nike have had limited
effect.

If a company increases their wages, yes it will effect their
profitability. But not as much as you might think: happier workers tend to
be more productive; whatsmore the business will have a lower staff
turnover rate, so less HR and training costs. It is unlikely to effect the
economy much as a whole -- these employees now being paid a decent wage do
not represent a drain on the economy -- they're out there spending that
extra cash!

But a company on its own has no incentive to increase the wages for their
lowest paid staff. Even if the managers really *want* to see their
employees earning a decent wage, they have a responsibility to the
shareholders to keep the bottom line down. With minimum wages enforced by
government, the whole industry increases its wages at the same time, so no
individual company loses out to a competitor paying lower wages.

5. To create monopolies where they are desired. Yes, in contrast to the
first point, sometimes monopolies are desired. If I have written a book
and want to sell copies, I don't want my first purchaser to go and make a
million photocopies and go and sell them for half the price. I want to be
the only damn person selling that book.

In these circumstances where a product requires significant effort in the
design and preparation stage, but very little in the manufacturing stage,
a limited form of monopoly needs to be granted. Otherwise there is no
incentive to actually *do* that design and preparation -- I can just wait
for someone else to do it and then start manufacturing based on their
design. In principle, that is what copyrights and patents are.

So to summarise, for a free market to succeed, we need:

* For any given product or service, there must be independent
competing suppliers;
* Consumers must be able to make informed decisions between
the suppliers;
* Consumers must be protected;
* Employees must be protected; and
* Creativity must be rewarded.

A market might be able to hobble along with four out of five, but a
successful market needs all five. Government regulation has so far proved
the only successful way to achieve this.

--
Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS
[Geek of HTML/SQL/Perl/PHP/Python/Apache/Linux]
[OS: Linux 2.6.17.14-mm-desktop-9mdvsmp, up 29 days, 21:53.]

Bottled Water
http://tobyinkster.co.uk/blog/2008/02/18/bottled-water/
 
P

place57

You said that the Euro was the currency of "socialist leaning ones
like many found in Europe" and you agree that it is gaining value
against the U.S. dollar. Are you now arguing that the Republican
administration is more socialist than most Europeans?

You are taking quite a leap from what I am saying. PC is the new
socialism and pitting those that have not against those that have. I
am pointing out that if you leave free enterprise alone it will
succeed. Proof of this is the American economy from 1776 until 1913
when the income tax made law. This growth spurt of a nation has never
been duplicated in all of history. The reason is the free market. If
I worked hard, I can be rich. With free market this door is open for
me. It is my option to open the door or leave it closed.

Slowly from that point (early 1900s) our politicians realized that
they could get voted in if they gave away a piece of the pie to the
have nots. Since Reagan both liberals and conservatives let this get
completely out of hand. To the point that the uneducated masses can't
even tell you the difference between a profit and a profit margin.
And now they all rally around taking the tax break away from
corporations like Mobil. The masses that are all chanting "yea! teach
those big corporations a lesson!!!!" (EU, fine those Microsoft
bastards!) But little do they realize that THEY are the ones that will
actually pay for those tax breaks going away. Do you think Microsoft
is going to pay that fine? Hardly you and I will be paying it.
Corporations don't pay any taxes or fines. We do. The people that
buy the products pay the taxes and fines as they are embedded into the
price of the product.

Mobil loses a tax break, the price of oil goes up, the politicians
blame the increase in price on the "evil oil company" and they tax
them even more, which causes the lazy ignorant people to cheer for joy
as their politicians "stuck it to big oil". Then the price goes up,
and the politicians blame big oil, which... You get the picture.

Keeping the masses ignorant, giving away pieces of the pie, and
maintaining things like class envy will keep the socialists in power.
But it will also destroy the ability for me, as an individual, to
create a Microsoft. Eventually end up destroying everyone's economy.
Socialism takes away the incentive for me to become rich. If I have no
incentive to create a Microsoft, I won't. This is seen in virtually
every communist or socialist nation.

Socialism, makes everyone the same. I don't want a world where
everyone is the same. And you may not realize it yet, but neither do
you.
 
T

Toby A Inkster

David said:
Here is a rather more objective comparison of the United States economy
compared to the European "socialists". It dates from 20 January 2001
till yesterday so that you can see where the currency of the current
"free enterprise friendly" administration is heading.
<http://tinyurl.com/ynpeua>.

You may be interested in:
http://tobyinkster.co.uk/blog/2007/11/18/usd-eur/

--
Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS
[Geek of HTML/SQL/Perl/PHP/Python/Apache/Linux]
[OS: Linux 2.6.17.14-mm-desktop-9mdvsmp, up 29 days, 23:09.]

Bottled Water
http://tobyinkster.co.uk/blog/2008/02/18/bottled-water/
 
D

dorayme

<[email protected]
place57 said:
Mobil loses a tax break, the price of oil goes up, the politicians
blame the increase in price on the "evil oil company" and they tax
them even more, which causes the lazy ignorant people to cheer for joy
as their politicians "stuck it to big oil". Then the price goes up,
and the politicians blame big oil, which... You get the picture.

Not quite. You mean big companies are inviolable, punishing them
for anything is punishing ourselves? Are you not forgetting that
if their prices become painful to us, other smaller companies are
thereby empowered?
 
T

Travis Newbury

Not quite. You mean big companies are inviolable, punishing them
for anything is punishing ourselves? Are you not forgetting that
if their prices become painful to us, other smaller companies are
thereby empowered?

If the governments of the world would leave industry alone, the free
market is self regulating via the purchasing power of the consumers.
BUT because government is greedy and any administration's (or party)
primary goal is to stay in power, they don't let that happen.
 
E

Ed Jay

place57 scribed:
You are taking quite a leap from what I am saying. PC is the new
socialism and pitting those that have not against those that have. I
am pointing out that if you leave free enterprise alone it will
succeed. Proof of this is the American economy from 1776 until 1913
when the income tax made law. This growth spurt of a nation has never
been duplicated in all of history. The reason is the free market. If
I worked hard, I can be rich. With free market this door is open for
me. It is my option to open the door or leave it closed.

Slowly from that point (early 1900s) our politicians realized that
they could get voted in if they gave away a piece of the pie to the
have nots. Since Reagan both liberals and conservatives let this get
completely out of hand. To the point that the uneducated masses can't
even tell you the difference between a profit and a profit margin.
And now they all rally around taking the tax break away from
corporations like Mobil. The masses that are all chanting "yea! teach
those big corporations a lesson!!!!" (EU, fine those Microsoft
bastards!) But little do they realize that THEY are the ones that will
actually pay for those tax breaks going away. Do you think Microsoft
is going to pay that fine? Hardly you and I will be paying it.
Corporations don't pay any taxes or fines. We do. The people that
buy the products pay the taxes and fines as they are embedded into the
price of the product.

Mobil loses a tax break, the price of oil goes up, the politicians
blame the increase in price on the "evil oil company" and they tax
them even more, which causes the lazy ignorant people to cheer for joy
as their politicians "stuck it to big oil". Then the price goes up,
and the politicians blame big oil, which... You get the picture.

Keeping the masses ignorant, giving away pieces of the pie, and
maintaining things like class envy will keep the socialists in power.
But it will also destroy the ability for me, as an individual, to
create a Microsoft. Eventually end up destroying everyone's economy.
Socialism takes away the incentive for me to become rich. If I have no
incentive to create a Microsoft, I won't. This is seen in virtually
every communist or socialist nation.

Socialism, makes everyone the same. I don't want a world where
everyone is the same. And you may not realize it yet, but neither do
you.

You seem to be confusing socialism with pure communism. I don't see how
socialism impedes capitalistic incentives. I can see where some attributes
of socialism create an environment in which the have-nots are treated as
equal to the haves, but it is not universal.
 
D

dorayme

<[email protected]
m>,
Travis Newbury said:
If the governments of the world would leave industry alone, the free
market is self regulating via the purchasing power of the consumers.
BUT because government is greedy and any administration's (or party)
primary goal is to stay in power, they don't let that happen.

If the governments of the world left industry alone (what a
laugh, considering that almost all governments are corruptly
dependent on them for their own survival!), you would have
consequences that even 'Laissez-Faire Travis' would turn into
'Regulation Travis' Do read Toby Inkster's little tract (thank
you O Lord, that someone took the trouble to remind folks about
some of the issues).

One of the very biggest reasons for intervention are the evils of
monopoly - there are various related forms of the disease, from
cornering by one person or group to cornering by a colluding
bunch of interests. By stomping on this trend, competition is
enhanced. Better to have a sustainable vibrant capitalism that is
fairer to more people in the long run in spite of not having the
impressive spikes of low prices (that are used to create huge
monopolies).
 

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