Nearly The Whole Of The Internet Is NOT W3C Valid

Discussion in 'Javascript' started by Alberto, Nov 16, 2005.

  1. Alberto

    Alberto Guest

    Eh unfortunately Google groups does not provide any longer a way to
    reply to the group for older posts (though the one I am referring to is
    not older than one month), and I happen to come back to this after life
    has asked my attention elsewhere for a while :)
    Yet I think your point deserves a reply.

    You were referring to:
    http://www.unitedscripters.com/spellbinder/internetexplorer.html

    with the following observation:

    > In deference to Mike's request, I'll just say that the statement is
    > plain wrong.
    >
    > The page incorrectly reports some sites as invalid, if offers no
    > analysis of site errors, what their cause or effect might be, nor does
    > it delve below the home page. It is at best superficial and no
    > meaningful conclusion can be drawn from it.


    I personally lay no claim to be beyond critics, but I would like to be
    criticized for the mistakes that I make, and not also for those that I
    don't.

    This is why I feel like stressing that each page thereby listed and
    declared invalid is :

    1) correctly (and not "uncorrectly") declared invalid, as long as by
    correctness we imply that the page declared invalid is not declared
    such by _me_ but by the w3c Validator itself. This is exactly the case,
    in all that stunning list of such famous websites, all declared fully
    invalid.

    2) It can all be proved by merely CLICKING the links (which obviously
    has not been done, as it can be evinced by the above mentioned
    objection), which do NOT merely link to the site declared invalid, but
    to the w3c validator adding to it as a query string the url of the site
    delcared invalid. This would reproduce all the causes of the errors, of
    course, which therefore are not neglected as you wrongly hint.

    I hope you credit me with the impossibility, with hundreds of sites
    linked there and declared invalid, to add per each of them also the
    excruciating length of all the W3C validator erros that they report,
    which in 90% of the cases span throughout the order of the various
    hundreds, and this only in order not to be wrongly accused of having
    not listed the errors I list letting to the W3C validator the task of
    listing as invalid the sites I declare it lists as invalid.

    Which are they?
    All the following sites are W3C declared invalid:


    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http://www.nist.gov/ Validate
    National Institute Of Standards And Technology


    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=www.cnn.com Validate CNN




    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=www.looksmart.com Validate LookSmart





    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=www.yahoo.com Validate Yahoo



    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=www.google.com Validate Google



    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=www.lycos.com Validate Lycos



    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=www.netscape.com Validate Netscape



    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=www.excite.com Validate Excite



    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=www.altavista.com Validate Altavista



    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=www.tiscali.com Validate Tiscali



    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=www.aol.com Validate AOL



    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http://www.vatican.va/phome_en.htm
    Validate Vatican (Holy See)



    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=www.buddhanet.net/ Validate BuddhaNet



    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http://philanthropy.com/ Validate
    Philanthropy com



    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http://www.nologo.org/newsite/home.php
    Validate NoLogo org



    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=www.fao.org/ Validate Food and
    Agriculture Organization of the United Nations


    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=www.uspacifistparty.org/ Validate Usa
    Pacifist Party



    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=www.gop.com/ Validate Usa Republican
    Party



    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http://www.democrats.org/ Validate
    Usa Democratic Party



    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http://www.gp.org/ Validate Usa Green
    Party



    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http://www.wsws.org/ Validate World
    Socialist Party



    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=www.wrox.com Validate Wrox publisher



    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=www.samspublishing.com Validate Sams
    publisher



    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=www.mcgraw-hill.com Validate
    McGraw-Hill publisher



    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=www.sybex.com Validate Sybex
    publisher



    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=www.ziffdavis.com Validate ZiffDavis
    publisher



    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=www.doverpublications.com Validate
    Dover publisher



    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=www.apache.org Validate Apache



    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http://www.allexperts.com Validate
    AllExperts com



    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http://answerpoint.ask.com Validate
    Ask Jeeves



    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http://www.nonags.com Validate Nonags



    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http://www.tucows.com Validate Tucows



    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http://www.pgpi.org/ Validate Pretty
    Good Privacy org



    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http://www.usr.com Validate Robotics



    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http://www.intel.com Validate Intel



    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http://www.logitech.com Validate
    Logitech



    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http://www.epson.com Validate Epson



    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http://www.canon.com Validate Canon



    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http://www.nikon.com Validate Nikon



    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http://www.xml.com Validate XML com



    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http://www.xml.org Validate XML org



    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http://friendfinder.com Validate
    Friend Finder



    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http://www.mirc.com Validate Mirc com



    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http://www.winzip.com Validate Winzip



    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http://www.html.it Validate Html.it



    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http://www.irfanview.com Validate
    Irfan View



    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http://www.adobe.com Validate Adobe



    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http://www.aaas.org/ Validate
    American Association for the Advancement of Science



    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http://www.cancer.org/ Validate
    American Cancer Society



    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http://www.worldwildlife.org/
    Validate WWF



    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http://www.olympic.org/ Validate
    Olympic Games org



    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http://www.activist.ca/ Validate The
    Activist Network



    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http://www-cs.stanford.edu/ Validate
    Stanford Computer Science Department



    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http://www-cs-faculty.stanford.edu/~knuth/
    Validate Donald Knuth's



    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http://www.greenpeace.org/ Validate
    Greenpeace



    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=www.nbc.com Validate NBC



    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=www.abc.com Validate ABC



    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=www.ebay.com Validate Ebay com



    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=www.pcworld.com Validate PC World



    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=www.cnet.com Validate CNET com



    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=www.lockergnome.com/ Validate
    Lockergnome



    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http://news.bbc.co.uk/ Validate BBC
    uk



    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http://www.chinaview.cn/ Validate
    China View (Xinhuanet english)



    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http://news.techwhack.com/ Validate
    Tech
    Whack India



    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http://www.webuser.co.uk/ Validate
    Web User uk



    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=www.informationweek.com Validate
    Information Week



    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=www.macworld.com Validate Mac World



    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=www.linux.org Validate Linux org



    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=www.oracle.com/ Validate Oracle com



    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=www.motorola.com/ Validate Motorola
    com



    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=www.softpedia.com/ Validate Softpedia
    com



    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=www.betanews.com/ Validate Beta News
    com



    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http://blogcritics.org/ Validate Blog
    Critics org



    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=www.geek.com/ Validate Geek com



    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=www.hp.com Validate Hewlett-Packard



    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=www.disney.go.com Validate Disney com



    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=www.ryanair.com Validate Ryan Air com



    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=www.historychannel.com Validate
    History Channel



    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=www.webpronews.com Validate Web Pro
    News



    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=www.monster.com Validate Monster com



    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=www.dice.com Validate Dice com



    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=www.blogger.com Validate Blogger com



    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http://searchsecurity.techtarget.com
    Validate
    Search Secuirty com



    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=www.nationalgeographic.com Validate
    National Geographic



    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=www.icann.org Validate Internet
    Corporation For Assigned Names and Numbers



    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=www.nokia.com Validate Nokia



    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http://www.usa.visa.com/?country=us
    Validate Visa



    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http://www.home.americanexpress.com/home/mt_personal.shtml
    Validate American Express



    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http://www.ain.cubaweb.cu Validate
    Cuban Official Agency Of News



    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=/www.korea-dpr.com/ Official Homepage
    - Democratic Peoples Republic of Korea



    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=www.symantec.com Validate Symantec


    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=www.redcross.org Validate Red Cross



    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=www.amnesty.org Validate Amnesty
    International



    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=www.scientology.org Validate
    Scientology



    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=www.un.org Validate United Nations



    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=www.unicef.org Validate United
    Nations Children's Fund



    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=www.cia.gov Validate Central
    Intelligence Agency



    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=www.fbi.gov Validate FBI


    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=www.eweek.com Validate Eweek



    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=www.match.com Validate Match com



    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=www.britannica.com Validate
    Encyclopedia Britannica Online


    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=www.webreference.com Validate
    Webreference



    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=www.napster.com Validate Napster



    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=www.foxmovies.com Validate 20th
    Century FOX



    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=www.cosmopolitan.com Validate
    Cosmopolitan



    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=www.php.net Validate PHP net



    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=www.opensource.org Validate Open
    Source org



    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=www.macromedia.com Validate
    Macromedia



    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=www.qualcomm.com Validate Qualcomm



    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=www.honda.com Validate Honda com



    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=www.mercedes-benz.de Validate
    Mercedes Benz com



    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=www.house.gov Validate Usa Parliament
    online



    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=www.assemblee-nationale.fr Validate
    French Parliament online



    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=www.bundestag.de Validate German
    Parliament online



    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=www.perl.com Validate PERL com



    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=www.python.org Validate Python org



    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=www.webmasterpoint.org Validate
    Webmasterpoint org



    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http://dynamicdrive.com/ Validate
    Dynamic Drive



    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=www.penguin.co.uk Validate Penguin
    Books



    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=www.shakespeare.com Validate
    Shakespeare com


    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http://web.mit.edu Validate MIT edu



    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=www.stanford.edu Validate
    University Of Stanford



    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=www.harvard.edu Validate
    University Of Harvard


    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=www.berkeley.edu Validate University
    Of Berkeley


    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=www.evolt.org Validate Evolt



    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=www.useit.com Validate Jakob
    Nielsen's Useit dot com


    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=www.sciam.com Validate Scientific
    American



    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=www.nytimes.com Validate New York
    Times



    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=www.reuters.com Validate Reuters



    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=www.guardian.co.uk Validate Guardian
    co uk



    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=www.forbes.com Validate Forbes



    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=www.arabnews.com Validate Arab News



    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=www.telegraph.co.uk Validate
    Telegraph UK



    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=www.businessweek.com Validate
    BusinessWeek



    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=www.britishairways.com Validate
    British Airways



    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=www.lufthansa.com Validate Lufthansa
    Airways



    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=www.ti.com Validate Texas Instruments



    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=www.amazon.com Validate Amazon



    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=www.apple.com Validate Apple



    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=www.playboy.com Validate Playboy



    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=www.lemonde.fr Validate Le Monde
    france



    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=www.lefigaro.fr Validate Le Figaro
    france



    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=www.spiegel.de Validate Der Spiegel
    germany



    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=www.repubblica.it Validate La
    Repubblica italy



    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=www.iht.com Validate Herald Tribune
    International



    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=www.thetimes.co.uk Validate The Times



    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=www.newsweek.com Validate Newsweek



    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=www.time.com Validate Time



    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=www.samsung.com Validate Samsung



    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=www.mozref.com/reference/objects/Selection
    Validate A Random Mozilla Documentation



    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=www.sun.com Validate Sun Microsystem
    Alberto, Nov 16, 2005
    #1
    1. Advertising

  2. Alberto

    Alberto Guest

    Of course, the list has been made a few months ago, precisely on
    September 10 to September 12 2005.

    If by chance a site is reported as valid, please do not infer by that
    that my thesis is a fantasy: just try more then once, if that would be
    (which I doubht) the case. I am NOT inventing, and it can be proved.

    As per the objection that we should perform a "deeper" analysys namely
    to check the validity not only of the front page (or home page, however
    you may call it) but also the internal links, this is a task that I
    have no fears to declare beyond my forces. I do not (NOT) deny its
    utility, but I cannot with sites of that scope articulated in thousands
    of pages each, make an analysys also upon each of its links. Some opf
    those sites are yahoo and Google: what do you want me to do, twelve
    billions of checks?

    If somebody wants to undertake it, it shall be welcomed by me.

    But I would like not to be objected with positions that speculate about
    the possible validity of UNCHECKED internal links, with the idea this
    could erase the no longer speculative bat actual fact that the home
    pages are invalid. The latter is a FACT. The former has not been proved
    yet, not even by those who wish it would be that the case, and sposnor
    such wishful hypotehsis as an evidence.

    Eventually, it appears inconsistent or delusional the idea that
    hypothetical (forgive misspellings, english's not my native lang)
    successful validations somewhere deeper in the websites could make up
    for the invalidation of the home page.

    Once we are for Validation, either we are for validation or we are not
    for it. We cannot be for half of a Validation, or for a validation that
    applies to scattered hypothetical internal links, but not to the most
    apparent element of whatever site: its front page.

    Rather and besides, it happens the contrary, as it may be proved if you
    check the website of mc afee com (the anti virus): its FRONT page
    validates: its internal links don't. So while we speculate about valid
    internal links that we can't find, we find at least sure evidence of
    the opposite.
    The same applies to Mozilla's documentations: front page validates,
    internal links at times don't.

    Facts still stay on my side, which I do not take any particular pride
    in: I am only trying to make apparent the REALITY, and not the
    imaginary, nature of a fact that is out there.
    The W3C validator is virtually declaring as invalid the whole of the
    net.

    This is the absurdity we are dealing with.
    I do not even care why or for which errors it declares them invalid:
    invalid is Invalid, and I do not allege that the criterion that depicts
    what is invalid and what is not, should be some other citerion than
    that which the W3C uses to come out with its result: Invalid.

    If it declares it invalid, it is invalid by the W3C and this is what we
    are talking about.
    We can't, in the name of compliance with the W3C, discriminate between
    errors that the W3C correctly reports as such, and errors that should
    be no longer considered such although the W3C says they are such,
    Such positions are not defensible preserving intellectual honesty. We
    can't apply two different rules to the W3C, the one that sponsors
    compliance, and uphold it, and the one that condones the lack of it,
    declaring the latter is still one more evidence in favour of the
    compliance that is not there.

    I have no magic formula neither I am the ultimate detainee of
    intellectual honesty: but you can prove to me that you have it too only
    by defending the W3C, if you want to do so, by sticking to what the W3C
    says. Invalid means Invalid.
    I am one of those who sponsor that this deosn't matter, that compliance
    with the W3C parser is UTTERLY meaningless. That the W3C parser is a
    hopeless tool, that accuses of invalidity for the silliest rewasons
    even the sites where have contribuitedthe best engineers available on
    planet earth, and whose unique outcome is of declaring invalid sites
    that have been browsed and used by scores of millions of different
    browsing platforms since 1990, and that have all prospered and even
    reached the top Nsadaq quotiations despite being invalid by the
    hundreds of errors.

    But if you sponsor the opposite position, which legitimacy I do NOT
    contend, you can NOT sponsor it applying to the W3C the rules that,
    although contradictory, are designed to make it come out as being right
    also when it declares a site being wrong.
    Invalid by the w3c rules means invalid by the only rules we are talking
    about and that the w3c parser uses to relinquish that invalidation,
    period.
    Alberto, Nov 16, 2005
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. Alberto

    RobG Guest

    Alberto wrote:
    > Eh unfortunately Google groups does not provide any longer a way to
    > reply to the group for older posts (though the one I am referring to is
    > not older than one month), and I happen to come back to this after life
    > has asked my attention elsewhere for a while :)
    > Yet I think your point deserves a reply.
    >
    > You were referring to:
    > http://www.unitedscripters.com/spellbinder/internetexplorer.html
    >
    > with the following observation:
    >
    >> In deference to Mike's request, I'll just say that the statement is
    >> plain wrong.
    >>
    >> The page incorrectly reports some sites as invalid, if offers no
    >> analysis of site errors, what their cause or effect might be, nor does
    >> it delve below the home page. It is at best superficial and no
    >> meaningful conclusion can be drawn from it.


    That appears to be me, so I'll reply.

    The original post subject was "Browser inconsistencies: what is the most
    efficient development regime?" and is accessible here:

    <URL:http://groups.google.co.uk/group/comp.lang.javascript/browse_frm/thread/aa4b6b25c3f9fab4/0d0671b3837883a9?q=The+page+incorrectly+reports+some+sites+as+invalid&rnum=2#0d0671b3837883a9>


    >
    > I personally lay no claim to be beyond critics, but I would like to be
    > criticized for the mistakes that I make, and not also for those that I
    > don't.


    Firstly, lets put the statement back into context. It was in response
    to this:

    wrote:
    [...]
    > Please as for the story about W3C compliance, have a look at:
    > http://www.unitedscripters.com/spellbinder/internetexplorer.html
    > scroll till HALF way of that file, you do NOT have to read it. Just
    > locate the middle of the page where there is a list of over 200 sites
    > from Google to Intel, from Yahoo to Logitech, from Amazon to
    > McGrowHill, from alpha to omega, that do NOT pass the W3C test by
    > several hundreds of errors each.


    > That is where the true importance of full compliance with W3C
    > guidelines stays.



    My statement was an observation, is is still accurate. It was not a
    criticism of the site, but of the comments mad by 'vall' who used the
    page to draw conclusions about whether some sites were more closely
    aligned to W3C standards than others.

    At the time the page reported Mozilla.org as being invalid, whereas in
    fact it wasn't. I note you have changed the link to the Mozilla
    documentation site, which doesn't validate.

    How about changing the Microsoft link to MSDN?

    <URL:http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fmsdn.microsoft.com%2Fdefault.aspx>

    It is invalid even as HTML 4 transitional, with far more errors than the
    Mozilla Object Reference site's HTML 4 strict.


    >
    > This is why I feel like stressing that each page thereby listed and
    > declared invalid is :
    >
    > 1) correctly (and not "uncorrectly") declared invalid, as long as by


    "uncorrectly"?


    > correctness we imply that the page declared invalid is not declared
    > such by _me_ but by the w3c Validator itself. This is exactly the case,
    > in all that stunning list of such famous websites, all declared fully
    > invalid.


    I made no comment at all about wheter you personally were responsible
    for reporting whether sites are valid or not. My exact words were "The
    page incorrectly reports...".

    The page incorrectly reported Mozilla as invalid, there may have been
    others.


    >
    > 2) It can all be proved by merely CLICKING the links (which obviously
    > has not been done, as it can be evinced by the above mentioned
    > objection), which do NOT merely link to the site declared invalid, but
    > to the w3c validator adding to it as a query string the url of the site
    > delcared invalid. This would reproduce all the causes of the errors, of
    > course, which therefore are not neglected as you wrongly hint.


    That was exactly what I did. My 'hint' is that there was no attempt to
    analyse the results of validation of individual sites. That is not a
    criticism but an observation.

    The criticism is for those who attempt to draw conclusions from the
    results without analysing the errors of individual sites. A site with a
    single trivial error is treated the same as one that might be so bad it
    doesn't even render.

    Does the fact that Microsoft's documentation validates with more errors
    than Mozilla's make it better or worse? Apple.com is 'invalid' with but
    3 trivial errors. Is that more or less compliant than Telegraph.co.uk
    with 270 errors?


    >
    > I hope you credit me with the impossibility, with hundreds of sites
    > linked there and declared invalid, to add per each of them also the
    > excruciating length of all the W3C validator erros that they report,
    > which in 90% of the cases span throughout the order of the various
    > hundreds, and this only in order not to be wrongly accused of having
    > not listed the errors I list letting to the W3C validator the task of
    > listing as invalid the sites I declare it lists as invalid.


    Yes, that's exactly what you need to do if you want the results of your
    validation exercise to have any meaning. A good start would be to
    classify sites based on the number of errors, then look at the types of
    errors, then select some sample sites and thoroughly analyse the errors.

    You might even realise that the validator reports many things as errors
    which in fact aren't.

    Seems like a lot of work? Yes, of course, but it is absolutely
    necessary if you really want an analysis of the level of compliance with
    web standards to be taken seriously.

    [...]


    --
    Rob
    RobG, Nov 16, 2005
    #3
  4. Alberto

    Alberto Guest

    But Rob, this is not something between me and you. I understand I
    started the thread taking as an occasion your reply, but the scope we
    are dealing with, and which merely springs from that occasion, spans
    beyond it by such a degree and in so obvious a manner, that in no way
    you should misread it as something between you and me.

    I also understand that you may think terms like "uncorrectly" are in a
    non formally correct spelling, but you also have to realize that here
    on these groups, which are open to an international audience and that
    so many persons from all around the globe read, it is just impossible
    that we are all native english speaker. I am not in fact, so you should
    be indulgent with my possible mistakes, and you shouldn't use my
    possible grammatical mistakes as an argument to gain a point in a cause
    that cannot be won anyway.

    I am not here to invent a thesis. Like yourself, I am too a person who
    is adult and who can produce an intellectual effort in order to stress
    the importance of something that is corroborated by facts, not
    uncorroborated. As said I do not mean I can be beyond critics, but I
    find it intellectually impossible to dismiss a list like the one I
    provide upon the bases you attempt to propose.

    Mozilla validated, true: yet, as they can surely confirm to you if they
    are honest, when I did the list on the nefarious day sept 11 2005, it
    didn't. Now, in such long a list, if all we are left with is the
    desperate search of a link incorrectly listed as invalidated so to
    uphold it as an alleged disqualification of the whole list, we have
    been left with very little, and we are clearly scrambling for a
    desperate line of defence at the bottom of the barrel. If we are left
    with that, we are actually proving the strenght of the list, NOT its
    weakness.

    We have a list that not only is long, but that by its very same length
    could have been longer.
    Most importantly, the names listed in such list are stunning ones: they
    are not a part of the internet, they are the internet.

    Now, relieved of any burden of proof as you deem yourself while, yet,
    at the same time you perceive yourself as having a stake in this cause,
    you shift all the burden of the proof on me, apparently claiming that I
    sholuld be endowed with titanic shoulders and that I, who have already
    provided a proof, should none the less provide even more which you
    yopurself acknowledge as nearly impossible - yet at the same time you
    contend in this cause, and you feel like you yourself, although
    contending, have to provide NO proof while you attempt to disqualify
    the work of the others sitting on such maginficently convenient
    position.

    You have there that list. You can group it yourself by errors. Do you
    know what a good work that list is? So good that in order to have what
    you ask for, you just have to click the links and you shall have
    instantly all the numbers you covet:

    Read them, I do this on your behalf though to you all it would have
    required is to move your finger and click:

    yahoo 281 errors
    AOL 277 errors
    altavista 38 errors
    excite 235
    Netscape 101
    Lycos 170
    Google 51
    NBC 317
    Ebay 222
    Monster com 256

    Even just before these NAMES and these NUMBERS, you should feel you
    can't defend the position any longer ALREADY.
    Even at such early stage, because you can NOLt dismiss with any
    CREDIBILTY the ENORMITY that is simply in those few lines.

    The W3C validator is utterly meaningless, and the sooner we quit
    sponsoring it as a tool worth being listened to, the better, because it
    is CAPABLE of relinquishing RESULTS LIKE THOSE, which are clearly
    crazy.

    Now, the contents of these sites change daily. I am sure now you would
    suggest I should first group, and then update daily these groups, or
    even better more times on a daily basis since these sites are all
    updated more than once daily. The funny side is that you appear serious
    when you attempt to claim this as a valid objection and that I INDEED
    should have been required to do it or you would just ignore what those
    NUMBERS and NAMES spell so clearly :)

    So, we have also results like:

    tucows 56 errors
    Intel 42
    Epson 12
    Canon 8
    American Association for the Advancement of Science 127
    Linux 22
    Motorola 96
    web pro news 299
    Visa 23

    Your line of reasoning is that since some sites have more errors and
    some less, this to some degree should invalidate the list. But the list
    is valid insofar as those sites are invalid. And how many errors are
    enough to be invalid, since for the W3C ONE is enough?

    And if less errors equals to something that is more compliant, the
    outcome that says that Canon is more compliant than Yahoo and Excite,
    is a point that does NOT support your position: it supports the
    CONTRARY. Because when we speak of the internet, we speak much more the
    declension of Excite and Yahoo than that of Canon and Epson. So what
    matters if some sites have less errors, when the reasoning ends up in a
    short circuiting ANYWAY?

    And however we can't be more presidential than the president. If the
    w3c says that an error is enough to disqualify the validity of a page,
    you cannot correct the sentence the w3c gives giving a different
    sentence and declaring in the same line that this latter, which denies
    the former, defends the former.

    You are on grounds you can't defend Rob.

    And you attempt to cope with this by chicanery. Now, I was born in the
    country of Machiavelli so I do not consider chicanery an irrelevant or
    despicable art. But we have an objective problem Rob, a W3C that
    disqualifies as invalid nearly the whole of the internet, and if you
    think that by desperately attempting to deny this fact scrambling for
    marginal advantages may work for the sake or in the interest of the
    W3C, keep in mind that it won't.

    There isNO point in upholding a position that clearly cannot be
    defended before such list and the numbers it yields and the names it
    involves, and the best defence that I sponsor for the W3C and which you
    should sposor too is that the W3C should CHANGE its own approach to
    what valiadtion is, and to what should be considered as valid and
    invalid.

    The W3C is not God. But you deal with it as if it were.

    The W3C is wrong. That list proves it. We cannot declare invalid the
    whole of the world after rules we ourselves made and clearly nearly
    everybody violates, and evryobdies that MATTER, and at the same time
    say that we are right. It's a tautology that has to be corrected.
    The W3C validation, as it is now, makes NO sense.

    And all the chicanery of the world can't change this fact, which that
    liost proves beyond any doubt, beyond any reasonable doubt, befeore
    whateve court of unbiased men and women.

    ciao, and btw it has been a pleasure to talk with you - but of course
    if the defense of the indefendible must resort to these arguments,
    there is no longer any point in debating. If you have personal reasons,
    which I do n ot contend, by which don't want or can't afford to see W3C
    validation is a CLEAR mess deprived of any meaning as it CURRENTLY is,
    there is neither really anything I can say, nor any possible evidence
    that can be brought forth that shall be able to make you change your
    mind in the LEAST, no matter how sound the reasonings are, no matter
    how evident the evidence is. Because even in the most perfect work you
    can find a flaw, so all the more in the obscure work of an obscure man
    like myself who just rtries to make blatant what is patent already: the
    W3C validation, as it is NOW, makes JUST NO SENSE whatever.


    Alberto
    http://www.unitedscripters.com/spellbinder/internetexplorer.html
    Alberto, Nov 16, 2005
    #4
  5. Alberto

    RobG Guest

    Alberto wrote:
    > But Rob, this is not something between me and you. I understand I
    > started the thread taking as an occasion your reply, but the scope we
    > are dealing with, and which merely springs from that occasion, spans
    > beyond it by such a degree and in so obvious a manner, that in no way
    > you should misread it as something between you and me.
    >
    > I also understand that you may think terms like "uncorrectly" are in a
    > non formally correct spelling, but you also have to realize that here
    > on these groups, which are open to an international audience and that
    > so many persons from all around the globe read, it is just impossible
    > that we are all native english speaker. I am not in fact, so you should
    > be indulgent with my possible mistakes, and you shouldn't use my
    > possible grammatical mistakes as an argument to gain a point in a cause
    > that cannot be won anyway.


    That was not my intent, I thought you were attributing its use to me -
    clearly a misunderstanding.


    >
    > I am not here to invent a thesis. Like yourself, I am too a person who
    > is adult and who can produce an intellectual effort in order to stress
    > the importance of something that is corroborated by facts, not
    > uncorroborated. As said I do not mean I can be beyond critics, but I
    > find it intellectually impossible to dismiss a list like the one I
    > provide upon the bases you attempt to propose.


    What I criticise is that conclusions are drawn from the presentation
    of the list that are not supported by a more rigorous analysis.


    >
    > Mozilla validated, true: yet, as they can surely confirm to you if they
    > are honest, when I did the list on the nefarious day sept 11 2005, it
    > didn't. Now, in such long a list, if all we are left with is the
    > desperate search of a link incorrectly listed as invalidated so to
    > uphold it as an alleged disqualification of the whole list, we have
    > been left with very little, and we are clearly scrambling for a
    > desperate line of defence at the bottom of the barrel. If we are left
    > with that, we are actually proving the strenght of the list, NOT its
    > weakness.
    >
    > We have a list that not only is long, but that by its very same length
    > could have been longer.
    > Most importantly, the names listed in such list are stunning ones: they
    > are not a part of the internet, they are the internet.


    They are web sites, not 'the internet'.

    Can you reasonably criticise Apple for having 3 trivial errors? Or
    even MSDN their 70 or so and from that draw the conclusion that
    standards compliance doesn't matter?

    Does the fact that perhaps 95% (complete guess) of markup *is*
    compliant count for nothing?


    >
    > Now, relieved of any burden of proof as you deem yourself while,


    The burden of proof is yours, not mine. You are proposing a theory, I
    am saying your 'proof' is insufficient.

    [...]

    > The W3C is not God. But you deal with it as if it were.


    Not at all, not ever. I have only ever used 'W3C' in the context of
    their standards, I don't think I have ever commented on their
    competence or omnipotence.


    > The W3C is wrong. That list proves it.


    It proves nothing of the sort! Are the police wrong because crime
    still occurs? Should all laws be thrown out because everyday people
    break laws every single day?

    Have you never, *ever* broken any law? No matter how trivial?

    That is the standard you would hold W3C standards too. Incidentally,
    there are a number of fundamental internet and web standards that are
    not controlled by the W3C, ECMAScript being an example.


    >We cannot declare invalid the
    > whole of the world after rules we ourselves made and clearly nearly
    > everybody violates, and evryobdies that MATTER, and at the same time
    > say that we are right. It's a tautology that has to be corrected.
    > The W3C validation, as it is now, makes NO sense.
    >
    > And all the chicanery of the world can't change this fact, which that
    > liost proves beyond any doubt, beyond any reasonable doubt, befeore
    > whateve court of unbiased men and women.


    Your basic premise is that complaining about invalid sites is
    pointless because most sites are invalid. I can accept that as a
    point of view.

    In order to argue the point, I would:

    1. Define what 'standards compliant' means. Are we talking just HTML?
    Or are CSS, DOM, ECMAScript included? Most readers of this forum
    would include at least those when discussing the standards compliance
    of hosted pages. Let's restrict ourselves to HTML as defined by the W3C.


    2. Establish a framework for determining the relevance of
    non-compliances. For example, the use of a single deprecated tag in a
    page of several hundred tags should be treated as trivial, whereas
    forgetting mandatory closing tags or incorrect nesting of block
    elements inside inline elements is much more serious.

    Then you respond to individual complaints of 'Oh, Google isn't
    compliant because of ...' by indicating whether it really matters or
    not.

    Of course purists will never be satisfied with anything less than 100%
    compliance (that goes beyond simple DTD validation), but the vast
    majority of surfers will be happy with 'fit for purpose' compliance.


    3. Determine a good compliance methodology. The W3C validator only
    checks against a DTD and does not correctly report some markup (e.g.
    HTML inside script document.write statements). This results in
    spurious reporting of errors - validator results *must* be analysed
    further.


    4. Having regard to the above, determine the consequences of
    compliance/non-compliance for various classes of common errors.

    The usefulness of standards compliance can only be evaluated against
    its alternatives - the consequences of not being compliant. In the
    extreme, without standards the web would not exist, so we are only
    discussing what level of compliance is reasonable.


    >
    > ciao, and btw it has been a pleasure to talk with you


    Likewise, cheers.


    [...]


    --
    Rob
    RobG, Nov 16, 2005
    #5
  6. Alberto

    VK Guest

    > Nearly The Whole Of The Internet Is NOT W3C Valid

    Firstly of all I'd like to state that there must be some commonly
    accepted standards, otherwise any development becomes unreliable and
    very expensive task.

    Secondly W3C is a standardization unit that was *originally* supposed
    to accept/decline open technologies descriptions from development
    companies. If accepted it supposed to describe such technologies in the
    way that any one else could reproduce it in fully compatible way.

    Thusly W3C is not an eastern style dictatorship and we are not their
    slaves. It supposed to be a feedback-based process. But after the
    Browser Wars W3C has been put for years in rather abnormal situation:
    >From one site the dominant browser producer did not give any respect to

    W3C so there was no use to address to him.
    >From the other side Mozilla followed each and every order from W3C

    because it was the only way to keep vitally important that time W3C
    endorsement.

    Someone said that the absolute power spoils absolutely...

    As a sample of how things were going and how they *may* eventually
    change consider this code:
    ....
    if (NN6) {
    var range = document.createRange();
    var l = document.getElementById('aLayer');
    while (l.hasChildNodes())
    l.removeChild(l.firstChild);
    range.setStartAfter(l);
    var docFrag = range.createContextualFragment(html)
    l.appendChild(docFrag);
    }
    ....

    If you are wondering what do these LSD-inspired revelations over DOM
    mean: this is how you supposed to emulate innerHTML in first releases
    of Netscape 6
    That would be not so bad: anyone can make dumb things of the first
    attempt. The real issue was that W3C had positioned the above as an
    *advantage* of the proper DOM model usage over amateur and incorrect
    Microsoft way with their terrible innerHTML method.

    The reaction of developers was furious. That was the first public
    revolt against W3C standards (where I took my humble participation
    too). W3C and Netscape were so terrorized by hate letters that already
    in the 3rd patch to NN6 (May 2000) they implemented Microsoft's
    innerHTML which everyone's enjoying now. As a small "revenge
    compensation" they refused to accept innerText though, but people
    managed to leave without it.

    Coming back to our days: why say Google front page is not W3C
    compliant? Look at the code and you'll see that all scripting/layout is
    adapted to be as compact as possible. If you're getting millions of
    millions of requests every day then each byte counts. And adding
    monstrous doctype declaration is not acceptable.

    W3C already lost this battle: if a standard is not implemented by major
    producers in a few years, it will never be implemented. How W3C could
    save the situation and its face? By say changing this apogee of the
    bureaucratic thinking:
    <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN" ...url>
    to something like:
    <!001>
    there the number would refer to a relevant W3C DTD table. Computer
    doesn't mind, it's even easier to it to parse one digit rather than a
    string. And no excuse then to not include this a bit of a code to your
    site no matter how loaded would it is.

    But for this W3C needs to be able to agree that *sometimes* they can go
    wrong and that *sometimes* developers and browser producers know better
    what is better.
    This ability was totally lost over past years though and the
    restoration process may be long and painful.
    VK, Nov 16, 2005
    #6
  7. Alberto

    Robert Guest

    Alberto wrote:
    >
    > yahoo 281 errors
    > AOL 277 errors
    > altavista 38 errors
    > excite 235
    > Netscape 101
    > Lycos 170
    > Google 51
    > NBC 317
    > Ebay 222
    > Monster com 256
    >
    > The W3C validator is utterly meaningless, and the sooner we quit
    > sponsoring it as a tool worth being listened to, the better, because it
    > is CAPABLE of relinquishing RESULTS LIKE THOSE, which are clearly
    > crazy.


    I am not sure what point you are trying to make. If you are saying that
    W3C (HTML) validation is meaningless, because so many website are
    invalid, then I don't understand how you would come to such a conclusion.

    I can explain to you the benefits and needs for it, but there are so
    many reasons that I don't know where to begin.
    Robert, Nov 16, 2005
    #7
  8. On 16/11/2005 05:50, Alberto wrote:

    Not that I hold /any/ sway as to who posts what in this group (nor would
    I want to), but it is a shame that you decided to ignore a very
    reasonable request to not discuss a provocative subject that is
    off-topic in this group. Particularly when you bring no significant
    position or argument to something that has been debated numerous times
    in more appropriate groups.

    Just to make this point clear now, this will be my /only/ post to this
    thread, unless it moves to matters of a more suitable nature. I have no
    intention of getting committed to potential flame wars like this. It's
    happened far too often in the past.

    [snip]

    > You were referring to:
    > http://www.unitedscripters.com/spellbinder/internetexplorer.html


    You still haven't corrected the technical error I pointed out in the
    previous thread. I'd also like to emphasise that I doubt it is the only
    mistake on your part. However, I'm not going to wade through such a
    long-winded article to discover others.

    [snip]

    > I hope you credit me with the impossibility, with hundreds of sites
    > linked there and declared invalid, to add per each of them also the
    > excruciating length of all the W3C validator erros that they report,
    > [...]


    If your article aims to make a point, and I assume it does, then you
    should be willing to comment on the extent and impact of any errors.

    Validation should not be a goal in itself. If it is possible to create a
    document that's valid and, even better, compliant with all relevant
    standards, then effort should be made to achieve that end. Incidentally,
    this should be the case for the vast majority. However, there are
    reasons to intentionally write invalid markup: laziness or incompetence
    do not qualify.

    Without inspecting each site, I couldn't comment whether the reported
    errors are intentional and with good reason, or just a result of poor
    practice (though I could guess). Anyway, that would be your
    responsibility, not mine.

    [snip]

    Mike


    Please learn how to post properly. Interleave comments with quoted
    material, and trim the irrelevant (preferably indicating that action).
    Read the group FAQ, particularly 2.3 and its links.

    I hope Randy doesn't mind me borrowing this:

    If you want to post a followup via groups.google.com, don't use the
    "Reply" link at the bottom of the article. Click on "show options" at
    the top of the article, then click on the "Reply" at the bottom of the
    article headers.

    [Follow-ups set to poster]

    --
    Michael Winter
    Prefix subject with [News] before replying by e-mail.
    Michael Winter, Nov 16, 2005
    #8
  9. VK wrote:

    [Quotation corrected]

    > Firstly of all I'd like to state that there must be some commonly
    > accepted standards, otherwise any development becomes unreliable and
    > very expensive task.


    Indeed.

    > Secondly W3C is a standardization unit that was *originally* supposed
    > to accept/decline open technologies descriptions from development
    > companies.


    It was and is not. <http://www.w3.org/Consortium/>

    > If accepted it supposed to describe such technologies in the
    > way that any one else could reproduce it in fully compatible way.
    >
    > Thusly W3C is not an eastern style dictatorship and we are not their
    > slaves. It supposed to be a feedback-based process. But after the
    > Browser Wars W3C has been put for years in rather abnormal situation:
    > From one site the dominant browser producer did not give any respect
    > to W3C so there was no use to address to him.


    True. Let's name it: Microsoft Corp. providing Internet Explorer.

    > From the other side Mozilla followed each and every order from W3C
    > because it was the only way to keep vitally important that time W3C
    > endorsement. [...]


    Utter nonsense. There are and have been no orders from W3C (which is not
    the sole body you present it to be[1]) and there was/is no support from
    W3C to Netscape/AOLTW or the late Mozilla Organization. The target of
    Mozilla/5.0 was and is to create a user agent that tries to follow Web
    standards in order to set an example on how an Open Source project and
    Web standards help to increase interoperability with all its other
    benefits.

    <http://www.mozilla.org/about/>

    Let's leave the rest of your misconceptions to /dev/null, shall we?


    PointedEars
    ___________
    [1] <http://www.w3.org/Consortium/Member/List>
    Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn, Nov 17, 2005
    #9
  10. Alberto

    VK Guest

    Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn wrote:
    > Let's leave the rest of your misconceptions to /dev/null, shall we?


    As you wish - it's your computer anyway, is it?

    > /dev/null


    or, for example:

    md c:/VK
    unlink c:/VK
    unlink c:/VK
    unlink c:/VK
    ...
    - you're the boss

    ;-)
    VK, Nov 17, 2005
    #10
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