[newbie] Discouraged after reading MS Press "Programming ASP.NET" - Esposito

Discussion in 'ASP .Net' started by JayWay, Jan 12, 2004.

  1. JayWay

    JayWay Guest

    I am new to ASP.NET, and to Web programming in general (I have a lot of
    experience in Win32/MFC). I'm doing research into which platform to use for
    an internal Web application. In choosing between ASP.NET/C# and J2EE, I'm
    a bit discouraged after reading "Programming ASP.NET" by Microsoft Press,
    by Dino Esposito.

    The book is well written and informative, but I'm discouraged by the lack of
    discussion of recommended design patterns, use of CSS, and separation of
    concerns of programming teams, especially since this book is the official word
    from MS. My discouragement mounts when I see the example code peppered
    with color, style, and font names. The same code has SQL queries thrown in
    for good measure. Perhaps I should be bearing in mint that example code can't
    really follow production patterns, but the patterns are not mentioned. So my
    questions to the readers of this group are:

    1. Is it MS's stance that n-tiered apps are outmoded and that all logic (i.e.,
    view, business, and data) may reside in any code where it's convenient? (This
    may sound rhetorical, but you'll see it's not when you read the book.)

    2. What is MS's recommendation regarding separating work among project
    teams, especially separating the database, business logic, and visual layout
    tasks?

    3. Does MS think the MVC design pattern has any place in ASP.NET (I've
    read several posts, with links, that say it's possible.) This is never mentioned.

    4. How can I use CSS to allow visual designers to do their work without close
    coordination and collision with logic coders? The book makes no mention of
    CSS except in passing while describing the internal mechanisms of ASP.NET,
    and by mentioning that VStudio.NET generates a style sheet for VB.NET
    projects (only!).

    Thank you, Josh
    --
    Remove anti-spam numbers from my E-mail address to reply.
     
    JayWay, Jan 12, 2004
    #1
    1. Advertising

  2. Josh,
    I've always regarded any book, even one from MSPress, as an option.
    This book is not the official word, it's just another book in a long list of
    ASP.Net books (I prefer the Wrox Press ASP.Net books myself, some of the
    writers now publish for Addison-Wesley or APress). Don't treat this book as
    anything that amounts to the official word, it's not. It's just another book
    by MS and just because it's from MSPress doesn't mean it's any good even,
    though I do like Dino's articles (though I haven't read any of his books).

    I haven't read Dino's book yet, but often a lot of fonts and other
    visuals get thrown into code to give the reader an idea of what it looks
    like. Instead of this approach, I use a linked stylesheet. Then I simply
    have my controls use the appropriate CSS class. The CSS doesn't have to
    exist in the page at all so this method keeps the design and code
    seperation. You can pretty much do the same thing in both ASP.Net, and J2EE
    and apply your preferred design and coding style to both.

    When it comes to patterns, you'll see them references elsewhere. MS
    actually has written about them a lot in other venues and books and you'll
    find some interesting design patterns at:
    http://msdn.microsoft.com/practices/type/Patterns/Enterprise/default.asp

    I absolutely love ASP.Net. I've been using it since the day my
    VS.Net beta arrived and it really is a great platform.

    Hope this helps,
    Mark Fitzpatrick
    Microsoft MVP - FrontPage


    "JayWay" <> wrote in message
    news:OkwH$...
    > I am new to ASP.NET, and to Web programming in general (I have a lot of
    > experience in Win32/MFC). I'm doing research into which platform to use

    for
    > an internal Web application. In choosing between ASP.NET/C# and J2EE, I'm
    > a bit discouraged after reading "Programming ASP.NET" by Microsoft Press,
    > by Dino Esposito.
    >
    > The book is well written and informative, but I'm discouraged by the lack

    of
    > discussion of recommended design patterns, use of CSS, and separation of
    > concerns of programming teams, especially since this book is the official

    word
    > from MS. My discouragement mounts when I see the example code peppered
    > with color, style, and font names. The same code has SQL queries thrown

    in
    > for good measure. Perhaps I should be bearing in mint that example code

    can't
    > really follow production patterns, but the patterns are not mentioned. So

    my
    > questions to the readers of this group are:
    >
    > 1. Is it MS's stance that n-tiered apps are outmoded and that all logic

    (i.e.,
    > view, business, and data) may reside in any code where it's convenient?

    (This
    > may sound rhetorical, but you'll see it's not when you read the book.)
    >
    > 2. What is MS's recommendation regarding separating work among project
    > teams, especially separating the database, business logic, and visual

    layout
    > tasks?
    >
    > 3. Does MS think the MVC design pattern has any place in ASP.NET (I've
    > read several posts, with links, that say it's possible.) This is never

    mentioned.
    >
    > 4. How can I use CSS to allow visual designers to do their work without

    close
    > coordination and collision with logic coders? The book makes no mention

    of
    > CSS except in passing while describing the internal mechanisms of ASP.NET,
    > and by mentioning that VStudio.NET generates a style sheet for VB.NET
    > projects (only!).
    >
    > Thank you, Josh
    > --
    > Remove anti-spam numbers from my E-mail address to reply.
    >
    >
     
    Mark Fitzpatrick, Jan 12, 2004
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. "A" book isn't going to give you everything you could possibly want to know
    about a technology as vast as ASP.Net. There are plenty of design patterms
    (as well as documentation, best practices, articles, etc) available on the
    Microsoft MSDN Library online.

    As for CSS, there's plenty of support for CSS in ASP.Net as well.

    --
    HTH,
    Kevin Spencer
    ..Net Developer
    Microsoft MVP
    Big things are made up
    of lots of little things.

    "JayWay" <> wrote in message
    news:OkwH$...
    > I am new to ASP.NET, and to Web programming in general (I have a lot of
    > experience in Win32/MFC). I'm doing research into which platform to use

    for
    > an internal Web application. In choosing between ASP.NET/C# and J2EE, I'm
    > a bit discouraged after reading "Programming ASP.NET" by Microsoft Press,
    > by Dino Esposito.
    >
    > The book is well written and informative, but I'm discouraged by the lack

    of
    > discussion of recommended design patterns, use of CSS, and separation of
    > concerns of programming teams, especially since this book is the official

    word
    > from MS. My discouragement mounts when I see the example code peppered
    > with color, style, and font names. The same code has SQL queries thrown

    in
    > for good measure. Perhaps I should be bearing in mint that example code

    can't
    > really follow production patterns, but the patterns are not mentioned. So

    my
    > questions to the readers of this group are:
    >
    > 1. Is it MS's stance that n-tiered apps are outmoded and that all logic

    (i.e.,
    > view, business, and data) may reside in any code where it's convenient?

    (This
    > may sound rhetorical, but you'll see it's not when you read the book.)
    >
    > 2. What is MS's recommendation regarding separating work among project
    > teams, especially separating the database, business logic, and visual

    layout
    > tasks?
    >
    > 3. Does MS think the MVC design pattern has any place in ASP.NET (I've
    > read several posts, with links, that say it's possible.) This is never

    mentioned.
    >
    > 4. How can I use CSS to allow visual designers to do their work without

    close
    > coordination and collision with logic coders? The book makes no mention

    of
    > CSS except in passing while describing the internal mechanisms of ASP.NET,
    > and by mentioning that VStudio.NET generates a style sheet for VB.NET
    > projects (only!).
    >
    > Thank you, Josh
    > --
    > Remove anti-spam numbers from my E-mail address to reply.
    >
    >
     
    Kevin Spencer, Jan 12, 2004
    #3
  4. JayWay

    John Spiegel Guest

    Hey Josh,

    I'm probably just a few months into where you've started going. Similar
    story, long-time developer with no web experience to speak of.

    I've also had more luck finding either books that were excessively (for my
    needs) overviewing or those where all the focus is on each specific
    technique and less on how the organization on the whole would best apply it.
    I've found some links on MSDN that look quite promising, but to be honest I
    haven't gotten far into them. Perhaps these are more along the lines of
    what you're looking for...

    FoodMovers. This one is basically a case study from enterprise architecture
    through deployment on a sample web development project.
    http://msdn.microsoft.com/webservices/default.aspx?pull=/library/en-us/dnvse
    nt/html/foodmovers0.asp#foodmovers0_topic2

    Patterns & Practices. This page has links not only to books but at least a
    few fairly extensive articles.
    http://www.microsoft.com/resources/practices/completelist.asp

    HTH,

    John

    "JayWay" <> wrote in message
    news:OkwH$...
    > I am new to ASP.NET, and to Web programming in general (I have a lot of
    > experience in Win32/MFC). I'm doing research into which platform to use

    for
    > an internal Web application. In choosing between ASP.NET/C# and J2EE, I'm
    > a bit discouraged after reading "Programming ASP.NET" by Microsoft Press,
    > by Dino Esposito.
    >
    > The book is well written and informative, but I'm discouraged by the lack

    of
    > discussion of recommended design patterns, use of CSS, and separation of
    > concerns of programming teams, especially since this book is the official

    word
    > from MS. My discouragement mounts when I see the example code peppered
    > with color, style, and font names. The same code has SQL queries thrown

    in
    > for good measure. Perhaps I should be bearing in mint that example code

    can't
    > really follow production patterns, but the patterns are not mentioned. So

    my
    > questions to the readers of this group are:
    >
    > 1. Is it MS's stance that n-tiered apps are outmoded and that all logic

    (i.e.,
    > view, business, and data) may reside in any code where it's convenient?

    (This
    > may sound rhetorical, but you'll see it's not when you read the book.)
    >
    > 2. What is MS's recommendation regarding separating work among project
    > teams, especially separating the database, business logic, and visual

    layout
    > tasks?
    >
    > 3. Does MS think the MVC design pattern has any place in ASP.NET (I've
    > read several posts, with links, that say it's possible.) This is never

    mentioned.
    >
    > 4. How can I use CSS to allow visual designers to do their work without

    close
    > coordination and collision with logic coders? The book makes no mention

    of
    > CSS except in passing while describing the internal mechanisms of ASP.NET,
    > and by mentioning that VStudio.NET generates a style sheet for VB.NET
    > projects (only!).
    >
    > Thank you, Josh
    > --
    > Remove anti-spam numbers from my E-mail address to reply.
    >
    >
     
    John Spiegel, Jan 12, 2004
    #4
    1. Advertising

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