(OFF TOPIC) - where did the C#, VB, and winforms newgroups go?

Discussion in 'ASP .Net' started by PJ6, Jul 13, 2010.

  1. PJ6

    PJ6 Guest

    I'm sorry to ask here, but google isn't giving me anything on this and I
    thought this might be a good place to find out.

    Paul
    PJ6, Jul 13, 2010
    #1
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  2. PJ6 wrote:
    > I'm sorry to ask here, but google isn't giving me anything on this and I
    > thought this might be a good place to find out.


    Microsoft took itself off of Usenet effective July 1, taking down its
    NNTP servers, having decided to devote its attentions to its web-based
    help forums.
    Harlan Messinger, Jul 13, 2010
    #2
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  3. PJ6

    PJ6 Guest

    "Harlan Messinger" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > PJ6 wrote:
    >> I'm sorry to ask here, but google isn't giving me anything on this and I
    >> thought this might be a good place to find out.

    >
    > Microsoft took itself off of Usenet effective July 1, taking down its NNTP
    > servers, having decided to devote its attentions to its web-based help
    > forums.


    I know it wasn't your doing, but just to rant a little -

    That's a shame, because web apps take away user choice and make enormous
    sacrifices to basic UI features and usability. Compared to real
    applications, web interfaces just suck. They always have, and they quite
    possibly always will.

    Maintaining a website for the forums also costs more and is less scalable.
    Maybe they had a good reason for doing this, but I wouldn't be able to guess
    what it was.

    Paul
    PJ6, Jul 13, 2010
    #3
  4. PJ6

    Guest

    > Maintaining a website for the forums also costs more and is less scalable.
    > Maybe they had a good reason for doing this, but I wouldn't be able to guess
    > what it was.


    But in Web forums Microsoft can make additional advertisement, etc.
    Who cares about the users ...
    , Jul 14, 2010
    #4
  5. PJ6

    Mr. Arnold Guest

    "PJ6" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > "Harlan Messinger" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    >> PJ6 wrote:
    >>> I'm sorry to ask here, but google isn't giving me anything on this and I
    >>> thought this might be a good place to find out.

    >>
    >> Microsoft took itself off of Usenet effective July 1, taking down its
    >> NNTP servers, having decided to devote its attentions to its web-based
    >> help forums.

    >
    > I know it wasn't your doing, but just to rant a little -
    >
    > That's a shame, because web apps take away user choice and make enormous
    > sacrifices to basic UI features and usability. Compared to real
    > applications, web interfaces just suck. They always have, and they quite
    > possibly always will.


    So?
    Compared to real applications -- please?
    I work in both environments, and what the desktop flyboy jockeys need to
    learn is n-tier, object oriented programming, design patterns, TDD and DDD
    in enterprise level development, which can be used at the desktop just as
    they are being used in Web based solution. The desktop flyboy jockeys are no
    where in the ballpark.

    >
    > Maintaining a website for the forums also costs more and is less scalable.
    > Maybe they had a good reason for doing this, but I wouldn't be able to
    > guess what it was.
    >


    Just use the MS NNTP Bridge application, which will allow on to use your NG
    reader and go to the VB and C# forums.
    Mr. Arnold, Jul 15, 2010
    #5
  6. PJ6

    Mr. Arnold Guest

    On 7/14/2010 4:10 AM, wrote:
    >> Maintaining a website for the forums also costs more and is less scalable.
    >> Maybe they had a good reason for doing this, but I wouldn't be able to guess
    >> what it was.

    >
    > But in Web forums Microsoft can make additional advertisement, etc.
    > Who cares about the users ...


    You do know that all MS NG access is on borrowed time, right? This NG
    access will be gone too in short order.
    Mr. Arnold, Jul 15, 2010
    #6
  7. On Thu, 15 Jul 2010 15:17:17 -0400, "Mr. Arnold" <MR.
    > wrote:

    >
    >Just use the MS NNTP Bridge application, which will allow on to use your NG
    >reader and go to the VB and C# forums.


    I was unaware of such an animal. Thank you for the heads up.

    regards
    A.G.
    Registered User, Jul 15, 2010
    #7
  8. PJ6

    Mr. Arnold Guest

    "Registered User" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > On Thu, 15 Jul 2010 15:17:17 -0400, "Mr. Arnold" <MR.
    > > wrote:
    >
    >>
    >>Just use the MS NNTP Bridge application, which will allow on to use your
    >>NG
    >>reader and go to the VB and C# forums.

    >
    > I was unaware of such an animal. Thank you for the heads up.
    >


    There are some issues with the bridge using Thunderbird, but Windows Mail
    doesn't seem to have the issues of getting some other poster's subject
    matter on a reply post and applying it to your nym supplanting what you
    posted, when it really didn't happen when using another NG reader and
    looking.

    TB also seems to have a problem of posting to a thread that was not the
    target thread when using the bridge.
    Mr. Arnold, Jul 16, 2010
    #8
  9. PJ6

    PJ6 Guest

    "Mr. Arnold" <MR. > wrote in message
    news:...
    > So?
    > Compared to real applications -- please?
    > I work in both environments, and what the desktop flyboy jockeys need to
    > learn is n-tier, object oriented programming, design patterns, TDD and
    > DDD in enterprise level development, which can be used at the desktop
    > just as they are being used in Web based solution. The desktop flyboy
    > jockeys are no where in the ballpark.


    Are you serious?

    When I came out of thick client development I was shocked at the lack of
    skills the people that called themselves web application "developers" had.
    All they knew was markup, and they spoke of "the code behind" and "scripts"
    with shades of fear. None of them had any inkling at all about what
    object-oriented programming is. I've been all over the industry for well
    over a decade and I can say that while there's been change, web developers
    as a whole (not you) remain the sorriest lot of them all. You may personally
    work with good people, but really - you can't be serious when you say web
    developers generally have a clue. I have reworked so many *devastatingly*
    bad designs wrought by web "developers", designs that would make you cry. No
    thick client I have seen has come *close* to the horror, the abject
    failures, I've seen these people create.

    And web UI development in general... things that are trivial, take seconds
    to do in a thick client, things that just work the first time, can take
    forever to do for a web interface, or are simply impossible. The very idea
    of using markup and script for an application's UI - where you actually use
    it to WORK - is flawed at its very core and I can point out in a thousand
    examples by comparison as to why this is true. Square peg, round hole.

    Paul
    PJ6, Jul 26, 2010
    #9
  10. PJ6

    Mr. Arnold Guest

    On 7/26/2010 10:16 AM, PJ6 wrote:
    > "Mr. Arnold"<MR. > wrote in message
    > news:...
    >> So?
    >> Compared to real applications -- please?
    >> I work in both environments, and what the desktop flyboy jockeys need to
    >> learn is n-tier, object oriented programming, design patterns, TDD and
    >> DDD in enterprise level development, which can be used at the desktop
    >> just as they are being used in Web based solution. The desktop flyboy
    >> jockeys are no where in the ballpark.

    >
    > Are you serious?
    >
    > When I came out of thick client development I was shocked at the lack of
    > skills the people that called themselves web application "developers" had.


    And how many years ago was that? Those days are long gone as .Net
    Architects for Web applications are starting to use the various .NET
    technologies and they are coming into play more and more.

    > All they knew was markup, and they spoke of "the code behind" and "scripts"
    > with shades of fear.


    Not anymore and particularly so with the usage of WPF, Silverlight and
    WCF RIA.

    > None of them had any inkling at all about what
    > object-oriented programming is. I've been all over the industry for well
    > over a decade and I can say that while there's been change, web developers
    > as a whole (not you) remain the sorriest lot of them all.


    So, when they have this kind of learning material available and they
    know what they are doing after they use the material, because they can
    see it in action and see the source code on how it's done, then what?

    http://www.dofactory.com/Patterns/Patterns.aspx
    http://www.lhotka.net/cslanet/

    And I have been on the MS platform since 1996 or so and I have seen
    sorry Windows forms developers to this day -- don't kid yourself now
    about the expertise level of a Windows forms developer over and Windows
    Web developer in today's, because I know better.

    > You may personally
    > work with good people, but really - you can't be serious when you say web
    > developers generally have a clue.


    I am dead serious about what is happening in today's environment. The
    days you're talking about are disappearing fast.

    I have reworked so many *devastatingly*
    > bad designs wrought by web "developers", designs that would make you cry.


    I have done the same thing on Windows forms applications, and prior to
    that, on the mainframe platform too back in the 80's and early part of
    the 90's, which was looked at code that was badly written and horror.

    > No
    > thick client I have seen has come *close* to the horror, the abject
    > failures, I've seen these people create.


    Bad programming and application design is not limited to any development
    environment. And I have seen some nightmares on the Windows desktop for
    applications.
    >
    > And web UI development in general... things that are trivial, take seconds
    > to do in a thick client, things that just work the first time, can take
    > forever to do for a web interface, or are simply impossible.


    I and a whole lot of others are not experiencing those issues.

    About the only thing a Web UI can't do well is keep state, but that's
    changing too with the HTML5, and there are other way to keep state as well.

    > The very idea
    > of using markup and script for an application's UI - where you actually use
    > it to WORK - is flawed at its very core and I can point out in a thousand
    > examples by comparison as to why this is true. Square peg, round hole.


    It's not going away, and the Web application's footprint is minuscule,
    as compared to a Windows forms based solution (thin client or not) where
    lots of things can go wrong and the attack vector is great. I have been
    there and done that.
    Mr. Arnold, Jul 26, 2010
    #10
  11. PJ6

    PJ6 Guest

    OK, fair enough. You make good points.

    I'm in the middle of writing an article on factors that affect a developer's
    productivity in computer languages and architecture, with a particular focus
    on end product stability (especially under change), development time
    required, and estimation reliability.

    Someone else made a start along these lines talking about what's wrong with
    C++:
    http://www.ittybittycomputers.com/IttyBitty/CppHarm.htm

    Part of the article points out flaws in web development - namely: browsers
    need to accept lower-level UI instructions (HTML is too high level, too
    crippled), and complex UIs are where you need a compiler validation the
    most - referential integrity checks, strong typing, etc.

    That looks like you're real email address.

    If you're so inclined, I'd like to send you the article and get your
    criticism when I'm done before I actually roll it all into a lecture. My
    hatred of web development probably clouds my judgment, and I could use some
    feedback from someone who has an opposite inclination.

    Regards,
    Paul

    "Mr. Arnold" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    <...>
    PJ6, Jul 26, 2010
    #11
  12. I believe you both over-value your anecdotal view of developers. My
    experience indicates the individual's OO skillset has much to do with
    their ability to develop both web or desktop apps. The skills and
    practices are eminently transferable between the two.

    Generally developers should not be responsible for producing a design
    as all too often the design follows the code. This stream of
    consciousness methodology can lead to work-arounds on top of
    work-arounds when design flaws appear. The ersatz logic for not
    correcting the design is always 'too much of an investment' in the
    code that has already been written. The first and only path explored
    is the one that gets taken, often with less than optimum results.

    A proper design is paramount to both web and desktop apps. The problem
    with using the term 'web designer' is its ambiguous meaning. There are
    major differences between designing a web site and designing a web
    application. The former is more about 'look & feel' (brochure-ware)
    than anything else.

    When pointing fingers at designers or developers, one should always
    consider management's role in the entire process. The worst kind of
    manager is the one who assumes because they are in charge they
    automatically know all the right answers and solutions before they
    understand the problem.

    regards
    A.G.

    On Mon, 26 Jul 2010 11:33:52 -0400, "Mr. Arnold" <>
    wrote:

    >On 7/26/2010 10:16 AM, PJ6 wrote:
    >> "Mr. Arnold"<MR. > wrote in message
    >> news:...
    >>> So?
    >>> Compared to real applications -- please?
    >>> I work in both environments, and what the desktop flyboy jockeys need to
    >>> learn is n-tier, object oriented programming, design patterns, TDD and
    >>> DDD in enterprise level development, which can be used at the desktop
    >>> just as they are being used in Web based solution. The desktop flyboy
    >>> jockeys are no where in the ballpark.

    >>
    >> Are you serious?
    >>
    >> When I came out of thick client development I was shocked at the lack of
    >> skills the people that called themselves web application "developers" had.

    >
    >And how many years ago was that? Those days are long gone as .Net
    >Architects for Web applications are starting to use the various .NET
    >technologies and they are coming into play more and more.
    >
    >> All they knew was markup, and they spoke of "the code behind" and "scripts"
    >> with shades of fear.

    >
    >Not anymore and particularly so with the usage of WPF, Silverlight and
    >WCF RIA.
    >
    >> None of them had any inkling at all about what
    >> object-oriented programming is. I've been all over the industry for well
    >> over a decade and I can say that while there's been change, web developers
    >> as a whole (not you) remain the sorriest lot of them all.

    >
    >So, when they have this kind of learning material available and they
    >know what they are doing after they use the material, because they can
    >see it in action and see the source code on how it's done, then what?
    >
    >http://www.dofactory.com/Patterns/Patterns.aspx
    >http://www.lhotka.net/cslanet/
    >
    >And I have been on the MS platform since 1996 or so and I have seen
    >sorry Windows forms developers to this day -- don't kid yourself now
    >about the expertise level of a Windows forms developer over and Windows
    >Web developer in today's, because I know better.
    >
    >> You may personally
    >> work with good people, but really - you can't be serious when you say web
    >> developers generally have a clue.

    >
    >I am dead serious about what is happening in today's environment. The
    >days you're talking about are disappearing fast.
    >
    > I have reworked so many *devastatingly*
    >> bad designs wrought by web "developers", designs that would make you cry.

    >
    >I have done the same thing on Windows forms applications, and prior to
    >that, on the mainframe platform too back in the 80's and early part of
    >the 90's, which was looked at code that was badly written and horror.
    >
    >> No
    >> thick client I have seen has come *close* to the horror, the abject
    >> failures, I've seen these people create.

    >
    >Bad programming and application design is not limited to any development
    >environment. And I have seen some nightmares on the Windows desktop for
    >applications.
    >>
    >> And web UI development in general... things that are trivial, take seconds
    >> to do in a thick client, things that just work the first time, can take
    >> forever to do for a web interface, or are simply impossible.

    >
    >I and a whole lot of others are not experiencing those issues.
    >
    >About the only thing a Web UI can't do well is keep state, but that's
    >changing too with the HTML5, and there are other way to keep state as well.
    >
    >> The very idea
    >> of using markup and script for an application's UI - where you actually use
    >> it to WORK - is flawed at its very core and I can point out in a thousand
    >> examples by comparison as to why this is true. Square peg, round hole.

    >
    >It's not going away, and the Web application's footprint is minuscule,
    >as compared to a Windows forms based solution (thin client or not) where
    >lots of things can go wrong and the attack vector is great. I have been
    >there and done that.
    Registered User, Jul 26, 2010
    #12
  13. PJ6

    Mr. Arnold Guest

    "PJ6" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > OK, fair enough. You make good points.
    >
    > I'm in the middle of writing an article on factors that affect a
    > developer's productivity in computer languages and architecture, with a
    > particular focus on end product stability (especially under change),
    > development time required, and estimation reliability.
    >
    > Someone else made a start along these lines talking about what's wrong
    > with C++:
    > http://www.ittybittycomputers.com/IttyBitty/CppHarm.htm
    >
    > Part of the article points out flaws in web development - namely: browsers
    > need to accept lower-level UI instructions (HTML is too high level, too
    > crippled), and complex UIs are where you need a compiler validation the
    > most - referential integrity checks, strong typing, etc.
    >
    > That looks like you're real email address.
    >
    > If you're so inclined, I'd like to send you the article and get your
    > criticism when I'm done before I actually roll it all into a lecture. My
    > hatred of web development probably clouds my judgment, and I could use
    > some feedback from someone who has an opposite inclination.
    >


    You can post a link to your article if you like. That's not my real email
    address. Like I side, I have worked on both sides of the fence developing
    Win desktop, Console and Windows service applications. I have also developed
    application in the Web domain, ASP.NET UI, Web services and n-tier. It's not
    as bad as you make it out to be on the Web side, and they are paying big
    $$$$$ for the expertise.
    Mr. Arnold, Jul 26, 2010
    #13
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