Opinion: Do web standards matter?

U

Uncle Pirate

Ángel said:
Please do not allow the person who had the idea of adding the animated
gif behind the address to join in to the committee :)

Oh, he'll be on the committee (me), but input will be offset by some
people from the art department. :) I freely admit, I am a developer,
not a designer. I intend to limit my input to technical details this time.

--
Stan McCann "Uncle Pirate" http://stanmccann.us/pirate.html
Webmaster/Computer Center Manager, NMSU at Alamogordo
Coordinator, Tularosa Basin Chapter, ABATE of NM; AMA#758681; COBB
'94 1500 Vulcan (now wrecked) :( http://motorcyclefun.org/Dcp_2068c.jpg
A zest for living must include a willingness to die. - R.A. Heinlein
 
C

c.thornquist

Alan J. Flavell said:
On Sat, 2 Apr 2005, c.thornquist wrote:
But those who can casually tell us how
easy it is to change from the installation default display (a
reasonably-sized window) to something else (fullscreen display) surely
cannot tell us that it's impossibly hard to change back again when the
need arises. I'm happy to specify a max-width, as I already said; but
I'm not prepared to show much sympathy for those who need max-width
but choose a browser without it.

I'm talking about back & forth...back & forth. You can view my sites just
fine in the browsers' reasonable, as you call it, default. That's not the
case with websites in which the text spreads across 100% of the monitor.
Luckily, for me, most sites don't fill my screen with text at 100% width.

Don't you think most people keep their browsers open to 100%? I just asked
my teenagers & they said "always" 100%. There's probably research somewhere
about it.

Maybe you don't understand the desire to open to 100% because it doesn't fit
the way you use your computer. But as site builders we have to think of what
most people do.

Carla
 
C

c.thornquist

Uncle Pirate said:
Oh, he'll be on the committee (me), but input will be offset by some
people from the art department. :) I freely admit, I am a developer, not
a designer. I intend to limit my input to technical details this time.

The bottom right of all images in the slideshow are missing for me in IE.

Carla
 
K

kchayka

c.thornquist said:
An example is at http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/

(W3.org's font size looks typical of a childrens book.)

That's funny, I find both the font family and size to be absolutely
perfect, since I'm getting my own browser default for both. :)

If you don't like how your browser default font looks, then change it.
Just don't complain about it.
 
S

Spartanicus

kchayka said:
That's funny, I find both the font family and size to be absolutely
perfect, since I'm getting my own browser default for both. :)

Carla's remark was about the font size. I'm guessing for her its larger
than she'd like. This is because w3.org sets the font to sans-serif, so
in fact the site doesn't respect the user's configured font, and since
it specifies sans-serif without specifying a size for normal body text,
it is likely to end up looking rather large for users with a serif font
as the browser's default (usually the "factory" default TNR @16px),
assuming a monitor with an typical resolution (approx 85PPI).
 
T

Toby Inkster

c.thornquist said:
Most of us read a newspaper daily. And books. And look up numbers in
phone books occasionally. We're accustomed to a much smaller font & more
narrow blocks of text. (W3.org's font size looks typical of a childrens
book.) Why should websites be so different?

Each medium has its own limitations.

One limitation of print media is that once something has been printed, it
is impossible to resize the font to make it easier to read. This is a
*weakness* of the medium, but unfortunately it's one that we have to
accept as it's caused by the physical properties of the materials involved.

The Web does not suffer from this weakness, so why try to impose the
weakness artificially?
Newspaper publishers don't provide several versions of the daily paper
to all customers routinely. It would cost too much.

For a while, The Independent and The Times published their papers in both
broadsheet and tabloid formats, but they've stopped doing that more
recently.

Many books are published in large print editions, translations, braille
editions, "talking books", hardback, softback...
Likewise, I'm not paid enough to build multiple versions of the same
website for different resolutions & monitor sizes.

But here's a point -- it is **easier** to build a site that scales to
different browser canvas areas and font sizes than it is to build a fixed
size website.

This is because HTML is naturally flexible -- it is flexible by default.
You have to make an explicit effort to remove this flexibility (e.g.
explicitly defining widths and/or absolute font sizes).
 
T

Toby Inkster

c.thornquist said:
Don't you think most people keep their browsers open to 100%? I just
asked my teenagers & they said "always" 100%. There's probably research
somewhere about it.

As it happens, I did a survey on this 13 months ago, but never published
the results. I would guess they are still roughly valid.

Will add them to my site now and post a link when done.
 
T

Travis Newbury

Toby said:
As it happens, I did a survey on this 13 months ago, but never published
the results. I would guess they are still roughly valid.

They will probably still be valid for your site. But probably not for mine.
Will add them to my site now and post a link when done.

Thanks, it will be interesting to see the trend.
 
U

Uncle Pirate

c.thornquist said:
The bottom right of all images in the slideshow are missing for me in IE.

There are two possibles you might be talking about.

The image at top right (sometimes animated switching images, sometimes
single image) is placed as a background to an overlaid mostly
transparant image shaping into the state of New Mexico.

The images placed as list-style-image is incorrectly chopping the image
off, they are also the shape of NM so look like the lower right corner
is chopped off too. In this case, I guess it's one of the IE bugs as
it's displayed fine in other browsers.

--
Stan McCann "Uncle Pirate" http://stanmccann.us/pirate.html
Webmaster/Computer Center Manager, NMSU at Alamogordo
Coordinator, Tularosa Basin Chapter, ABATE of NM; AMA#758681; COBB
'94 1500 Vulcan (now wrecked) :( http://motorcyclefun.org/Dcp_2068c.jpg
A zest for living must include a willingness to die. - R.A. Heinlein
 
J

Jim Moe

c.thornquist said:
Oh no, I'm serious. I'm not suggesting remote controls, just saying that
whoever designed & built them realized that people don't want to have to
make adjustments.
You're funny! I like you.
Remote controls were invented because people did not want to walk to
the TV and back to set the volume. Have you looked at a typical remote
control? Zowie! Talk about a lot of adjustments! They make browsers look
simple.
 
T

Toby Inkster

c.thornquist said:
What if your top header or banner just won't work visually with anything
other than its width, say 650 pixels? Does CSS allow you to to keep that
width throughout the page w/o using tables?

Of course:

BODY { width:650px }

But that's the sort of inflexible design decision I'm arguing *against*.
 
T

Toby Inkster

Jim said:
Remote controls were invented because people did not want to walk to
the TV and back to set the volume.

When you're up by the TV, adjusting the volume it seems too loud, when
you're waaaay back over on your couch, it seems too quiet.
 
T

Travis Newbury

Jim said:
You're funny! I like you.
Remote controls were invented because people did not want to walk to
the TV and back to set the volume. Have you looked at a typical remote
control? Zowie! Talk about a lot of adjustments! They make browsers look
simple.

I remember my first TV with a remote control. It had 1 buttons on it.
Click it once, the tv turned on. If you kept on clicking the channel
would change up to 13 times, then it would turn the tv off again. The
entire thing was mechanical. It produced a loud "click" which was
picked up by the TV and caused it to mechanically change the tuner.

That's what remotes were when they first came out. Hardly complicated.
 
T

Travis Newbury

Toby said:
What makes you think I performed the survey on my own site? (I didn't.)

Well the line "I did a survey on this 13 months ago" was the part that
made me thing that you did the survey. The part "But never published
the results" implies it was for your personal site.

Either way, the results would be invalid for my site anyway
 
C

c.thornquist

Toby Inkster said:
Of course:

BODY { width:650px }

But that's the sort of inflexible design decision I'm arguing *against*.

It's not CSS, I'm opposed to. As I've said earlier, CSS makes sense. It's
the insistence upon 100% width and using relative values (though I'm
dismayed to discover IE doesn't override my fixed font sizes in "style."

I'm sure my views stem from having to build sites for x amount of dollars.
I've attempted flexible sites in the past & they take too long to build. If
they are to look right in multiple browsers and resolutions, that is. But I
don't generally build sites which contain much text on the opening page. If
I did, I could fill the front page with "stuff." My sites are for small
business owners (IE a bakery, car dealership, bridal shop, restaurants,
etc.), so the front page is w/o much text. That said, how do you keep your
row of text links from spreading to 100% width?

Carla
 
L

Lachlan Hunt

c.thornquist said:
Don't you think most people keep their browsers open to 100%?

I certainly don't think that. Personally, I keep my browser window at
~900px wide which is about 70% of my 1280×1024 screen, and at least two
others in my family don't maximise browser windows either.
I just asked my teenagers & they said "always" 100%.

Well, there's great population sample! Do you really think your
teenagers equate to most people? Add my result to the group (I'll take
a guess and say your sample was 2 teenagers plus yourself – exact
numbers aren't important), and that makes it 50% of the population that
don't keep browsers open to 100% :).
There's probably research somewhere about it.

Does it really matter what the stats are for this? Screen sizes and
resolutions vary a great deal anyway, from 640×480 to 1600×1200 and
higher, and that's just for desktops. Since it's the viewport size that
matters, not the screen size, whether or not users keep the browser
maximised or not is meaningless.
 
T

Travis Newbury

Lachlan said:
Well, there's great population sample! Do you really think your
teenagers equate to most people?

Most people? Probably not. Most "visitors", well depending on the
site, maybe so. Why is it so hard for some to see that something that
is good for one site may or may not be good for another. The rules
should be guidelines that guide the developer uses when developing a
site. But, you have to look at your likely (not all possible) visitors
and design around what THEY want. Because a site that sticks to the
"rules", just because they are rules, and ignores what the likely
visitors want, is doomed to failure.

But they can happily head into bankruptcy court knowing they followed
the rules...
 
L

Lachlan Hunt

Travis said:
Most people? Probably not. Most "visitors", well depending on the
site, maybe so.

How can you possibly know this kind of information about your visitors,
as opposed to people in general; and what kind of site's target audience
(based on its content) would target a group of user's with specific
browser window size preferences?
The rules should be guidelines that guide the developer uses when
developing a site.

Yes, I agree with that.
But, you have to look at your likely (not all possible) visitors
and design around what THEY want.

Yes. But, again, how can you possibly determine users' browser window
preferences based on a site's target audience?
 

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