Quick questions...

Discussion in 'C Programming' started by earthlinkmail@earthlink.net, Oct 30, 2005.

  1. Guest

    ....you experienced programmers of C; did you start with C? What course
    of study did you pursue to get to where you are today? Would you
    suggest starting with REALbasic first for a n00b? I am completely new
    to programming and using a Mac and would like some input as to where to
    begin a career in programming. I know this is probably a somewhat
    undefined question, but would appreciate you input/advice. Thanks.
    , Oct 30, 2005
    #1
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  2. said:

    > ...you experienced programmers of C; did you start with C? What course
    > of study did you pursue to get to where you are today? Would you
    > suggest starting with REALbasic first for a n00b? I am completely new
    > to programming and using a Mac and would like some input as to where to
    > begin a career in programming. I know this is probably a somewhat
    > undefined question, but would appreciate you input/advice. Thanks.


    It would probably be better to start out by learning a language that was
    designed with teaching in mind, such as Pascal. This should teach you some
    good habits.

    Once you've got the general idea of programming, switch to C, and get a
    really, really good book on it, such as "The C Programming Language" (2nd
    edition), by Brian W Kernighan and Dennis M Ritchie. Your local bookshop
    should carry this, or you can get it from Amazon. Alas, there are plenty of
    bad books on C, and you can get those from your bookshop or Amazon too. :-(

    The Frequently-Asked Questions list for this newsgroup can be found at
    http://www.eskimo.com/~scs/C-FAQ/top.html - and you will find it to be a
    most helpful resource.

    --
    Richard Heathfield
    "Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29/7/1999
    http://www.cpax.org.uk
    email: rjh at above domain (but drop the www, obviously)
    Richard Heathfield, Oct 30, 2005
    #2
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  3. Thad Smith Guest

    wrote:

    > ...you experienced programmers of C; did you start with C?


    No, I started with GOTRAN on an IBM 1620
    <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_1620>. C was several years away.

    > What course
    > of study did you pursue to get to where you are today? Would you
    > suggest starting with REALbasic first for a n00b? I am completely new
    > to programming and using a Mac and would like some input as to where to
    > begin a career in programming. I know this is probably a somewhat
    > undefined question, but would appreciate you input/advice. Thanks.


    I'm not familiar with what is available on a Mac. I suggest asking for
    suggestions in a Mac programming newsgroup. Since you asked in
    comp.lang.c, consider C!

    --
    Thad
    Thad Smith, Oct 30, 2005
    #3
  4. wrote:
    > ...you experienced programmers of C; did you start with C?


    Before 1970:
    ALGOL on a CDC 3600;
    FORTRAN on a UNIVAC 1107;
    MAD, FAP, LISP, and SNOBOL on an IBM 7094 (CTSS);
    FORTRAN, PL/1, 360 Assembler, APL on IBM 360;
    MACRO-6, MACRO-10, FORTRAN, ALGOL and COBOL on PDP-6 and PDP-10 (TOPS-10
    & ITS);
    MACRO-8 on PDP-8
    PL/1 on a GE 645 (MULTICS);
    Added in 1970:
    MACRO-11 on PDP-11;

    > What course
    > of study did you pursue to get to where you are today?


    Undergraduate degrees in Political Science and Economics from MIT and
    Graduate degees in Political Science from Northwestern. This is
    misleading: 4 semesters of physics, 3 of chemistry, 6 of electrical
    engineering, and 8 in math are hidden behind those undergraduate degrees.

    > Would you
    > suggest starting with REALbasic first for a n00b?


    There is no pedagogical advantage to any flavor of BASIC over a
    production language such as C. Pedagogical languages like APL and
    Pascal have their uses, but there is the danger of the "first language
    syndrome", in which the first language one learns is the standard
    against which all others are measured. Just as in the case of the
    "first editor syndrome", even the poorly done parts of the first used
    language (or editor) acquire a mystique not easy to overcome.

    > I am completely new
    > to programming and using a Mac and would like some input as to where to
    > begin a career in programming.


    Start by concentrating on getting an education, not on your career.

    > I know this is probably a somewhat
    > undefined question, but would appreciate you input/advice. Thanks.
    >
    Martin Ambuhl, Oct 30, 2005
    #4
  5. Chris Torek Guest

    This is a bit off-topic, but...

    In article <ocZ8f.2166$>
    Martin Ambuhl <> wrote:
    >There is no pedagogical advantage to any flavor of BASIC over a
    >production language such as C. Pedagogical languages like APL and
    >Pascal have their uses, but there is the danger of the "first language
    >syndrome", in which the first language one learns is the standard
    >against which all others are measured.


    As it happens, I learned a variant of BASIC first myself. It occurs
    to me that the second sentence argues against the first: compared to
    that BASIC, most other languages look positively *wonderful*. :)

    (I wrote a number of fairly serious programs in TRS-80 Level II
    BASIC, and it taught me quite a lot about the need for dividing
    things up so that individual pieces of a solution do not interfere
    with each other. As all variables were global, and all subroutines
    handled by line-number, this had to be done manually. I kept large
    tables of "variable names reserved to various subroutines" and
    "subroutine S starts at line L" and so on.)

    >Start by concentrating on getting an education, not on your career.


    Indeed. And when you do get down to specifics in programming,
    study as many languages as you can get your hands on.
    --
    In-Real-Life: Chris Torek, Wind River Systems
    Salt Lake City, UT, USA (40°39.22'N, 111°50.29'W) +1 801 277 2603
    email: forget about it http://web.torek.net/torek/index.html
    Reading email is like searching for food in the garbage, thanks to spammers.
    Chris Torek, Oct 30, 2005
    #5
  6. Eric Sosman Guest

    wrote:
    > ...you experienced programmers of C; did you start with C? What course
    > of study did you pursue to get to where you are today? Would you
    > suggest starting with REALbasic first for a n00b? I am completely new
    > to programming and using a Mac and would like some input as to where to
    > begin a career in programming. I know this is probably a somewhat
    > undefined question, but would appreciate you input/advice. Thanks.


    C had not been invented when I started programming, so
    I didn't have the option of learning it first. Although C
    is probably easier to get started in (and vastly more powerful
    than) the FORTRAN II that was my introduction to programming,
    I don't think I'd recommend it as a first language for a
    beginner. It is a band saw without a blade guard: the perfect
    tool for cutting tricky shapes in wood and in fingers.

    Baby-talk languages like BASIC or Pascal don't strike me
    as a good way to start, either. Both have been morphed into
    "serious" languages, but seem top-heavy: too many industrial-
    strength features loaded onto inadequate substrates. A kid's
    little red wagon is a fine thing, but not the vehicle of choice
    for hauling freight cross-country.

    Looking at the languages available today, I'd suggest
    starting with either Java or some form of Lisp. Both are "real"
    languages, but both relieve you of worrying about some of the
    trickier aspects of "real" programming, especially memory
    management. Also, both come with things like Iterator (Java)
    and mapcar (Lisp) that provide canned solutions for some common
    and repetitive tasks so you can forget about them for a while
    as you concentrate on learning how to reason about a program's
    behavior.

    Alas, both languages share a serious drawback: Their error
    messages are cryptic and likely to baffle a beginner. (By
    "cryptic" I don't mean merely "terse:" both languages tend to
    produce messages that describe a difficulty in their own terms
    and not in terms of the problem space. All computer languages
    I've used share this characteristic to some degree, but Java and
    Lisp seem a little remoter than most.) The opacity of their
    diagnostics may be somewhat offset by the superior debugging
    features that lie within the languages themselves.

    Of course, all this is a bit speculative on my part. I did
    not actually begin my study of programming with either Java or
    Lisp, and don't actually know from personal experience how good
    or bad they might be. I think, though, that they'd be better
    starting points than C -- I started learning C almost thirty years
    ago, and I *still* haven't grasped all of it!

    --
    Eric Sosman
    lid
    Eric Sosman, Oct 30, 2005
    #6
  7. On Sat, 29 Oct 2005 21:15:28 -0400, <> wrote:

    > ...you experienced programmers of C; did you start with C?


    Well, I'm not an experienced C programmer, but...

    > of study did you pursue to get to where you are today? Would you
    > suggest starting with REALbasic first for a n00b? I am completely new
    > to programming and using a Mac and would like some input as to where to
    > begin a career in programming. I know this is probably a somewhat
    > undefined question, but would appreciate you input/advice. Thanks.


    I started learning programming with QBASIC on an old(er) computer, and did
    a bit, but I reached some roadblocks further on in and up. Then, I started
    learning Scheme, and a lot of things made more sense to me, and I finally
    could make something work. Now I'm learning C, and it's quite fun. I did
    attempt to learn C first, but I never really got it working right.
    Understanding logic flow in something like Scheme first helped me quite a
    bit in being able to at least get things to work in C, even if the way I
    did it was inefficient and slow, I'm working on making them efficient and
    clean now as well.

    As a beginner language, I don't much care for C, or BASIC in any form. I
    can't speak from a great deal of experience, but I've always found a Lisp
    type language (Scheme) to be really helpful, and probably something like
    Pascal, Python, or some such. But once you get into that road, you might
    as well start learning C also.

    Really, it seems to me that the most important first step is learning how
    to program in your mind: how to lay things out, how to segment your
    program, how to put ideas into a series of robust steps, how to understand
    input and output. The abstract essentials to what goes on before anyone
    ever writes any code seem to be missing with more people I meet than just
    understanding a language.

    - Arctic

    --
    Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
    Arctic Fidelity, Oct 30, 2005
    #7
  8. Simon Biber Guest

    wrote:
    > ...you experienced programmers of C; did you start with C? What course
    > of study did you pursue to get to where you are today? Would you
    > suggest starting with REALbasic first for a n00b? I am completely new
    > to programming and using a Mac and would like some input as to where to
    > begin a career in programming. I know this is probably a somewhat
    > undefined question, but would appreciate you input/advice. Thanks.


    I started with Applesoft BASIC on an Apple II Plus, which was a
    hand-me-down present from my grandfather on my fifth birthday. I
    programmed in Applesoft for a few years, then got a 286 PC with 512 KB
    memory, that ran BASICA and QBASIC. I continued to use QBASIC and
    subsequently QuickBASIC for many years. I also learnt a little Pascal
    while in high school.

    I went into a Computing Science degree at the University of Technology,
    Sydney. The first language taught was Eiffel, and then C. Through
    elective subjects I have also done courses in C++, PHP and Java.

    No course can teach you how to program. You have to spend a lot of time
    practising, writing hundreds of little programs. Whenever you see or
    hear an interesting program, try implementing a solution.

    --
    Simon.
    Simon Biber, Oct 30, 2005
    #8
  9. In article <>,
    <> wrote:
    >...you experienced programmers of C; did you start with C?


    FORTRAN IV with WATFOR, if I recall correctly. I learned a bunch
    of things in a short time after that, so I can no longer lay out
    the order. [Possibly, before the FORTRAN IV, I might have already been
    exposed to some programming reference material that didn't say anything about
    how to write programs and which had no examples.]

    >What course
    >of study did you pursue to get to where you are today?


    This is a different age... the method of study I followed then would
    be seriously unfashionable now. A bunch of it came down to
    "Have library card; will borrow."

    >Would you
    >suggest starting with REALbasic first for a n00b?


    No! BASIC sets too many bad habits.


    >I am completely new
    >to programming and using a Mac and would like some input as to where to
    >begin a career in programming.


    In recent years, I have run across an essay that says, in all
    seriousness, that if you want a good career, then do not go into
    computer science: that the field is too flooded already with
    programmers who do a "good enough" job; that companies are cutting
    back on in-house programming; that companies are outsourcing a
    lot of programming jobs to third-world countries... and some other
    reasons I do not recall.

    If you are looking for a "career", then pick a field which is going to
    be in big demand in the timeframe when you are going to be at your
    prime -- oh, say, ecological reclamation, water purification science,
    geriatic care, species extinction prevention, or pulling companies (or
    countries) out of bankruptcy.


    The path I followed is not one that can just be rationally "chosen".
    You've heard of writers who must write, or painters who must paint...
    some of us are programmers because we *must* be so.
    --
    Okay, buzzwords only. Two syllables, tops. -- Laurie Anderson
    Walter Roberson, Oct 30, 2005
    #9
  10. Joe Estock Guest

    wrote:
    > ...you experienced programmers of C; did you start with C? What course
    > of study did you pursue to get to where you are today? Would you
    > suggest starting with REALbasic first for a n00b? I am completely new
    > to programming and using a Mac and would like some input as to where to
    > begin a career in programming. I know this is probably a somewhat
    > undefined question, but would appreciate you input/advice. Thanks.
    >

    Best first language to learn? Perl. Once you've coded in perl you'll
    gain an entirely new perspective and appreciation for c (and any other
    language that is not perl).

    Being serious now, I would recommend something that will get you
    familiar with the fundamental logic of coding. Specifically I would
    recommend a loosly typed language first so you can concentrate on actual
    code logic instead of variables. Once you have a firm understanding of
    code logic then you can work on variables. Although it is not the
    greatest language in the world, PHP is quite easy to learn however it
    will at times open bad doors to programming. PHP is more like C++ than
    C, however it will certainly help you get used to the basics of writing
    code. As long as you avoid the object oriented aspects of PHP I don't
    see why it wouldn't at least give you a boost in the right direction.
    Even to this day I still use PHP to create a POC (Proof Of Concept)
    before I start coding in C. It's easier to track what is going on
    because it eliminates the need of a debugger and you don't have to
    concentrate on variables; you only need to concentrate on functionality
    and design.

    Like many of the others here I learned BASIC first (I too programmed on
    a TRS-80, among other things). All in al I would say your first task
    should be to learn code logic, followed by portability, and finally
    variable types and limitations. Perhaps the biggest problem you're going
    to run into with programming in C is knowing what variable type to use
    where (e.g., unsigned char * or char *, etc).

    If you decide to learn C first, more power to you. Everyone needs
    somewhere to start out, so why not use the age-old "Hello, World!"
    example - but with a twist. If you are going to be coding in C you are
    most certainly going to need to use a debugger. Since this newsgroup
    deals with only standard C programming I cannot go into compiler or
    debugger specifics, however I will leave you with the following code and
    task to learn what is going in inside the code.

    #include <stdio.h> /* for printf and friends */
    #include <stdlib.h> /* for EXIT_SUCCESS, EXIT_FAILURE, etc */

    int main(int argc, char **argv)
    {
    int i = 0;

    i++; /* set a breakpoint here and examine the value of i */

    printf("Hello, World! In my first c program i is now %d\n", i);

    /* now, set a breakpoint here and examine the value of i */
    printf("Incrementing i using the prefix operator: %d\n", ++i);

    /*
    * since we might be piped to another program we should
    * let whoever called us know that we had a successful
    * run
    */
    return(EXIT_SUCCESS);
    }

    You may also experiment with the char type. For example (not a complete
    program):

    char c = 'a';

    printf("c: %c\n", c);

    ++c;

    printf("c (after): %c\n", c);

    Best of luck,

    - Joe
    Joe Estock, Oct 30, 2005
    #10
  11. Skarmander Guest

    Walter Roberson wrote:
    > In article <>,
    > <> wrote:
    >

    <snip>
    >>Would you suggest starting with REALbasic first for a n00b?

    >
    >
    > No! BASIC sets too many bad habits.
    >


    No more than most other languages. Modern Basics really don't resemble
    their GOTO-based predecessors of yore, but have all the trappings of
    structured languages. REALBasic in particular is an O-O language that's
    nothing like an ancient Basic, except for the syntax (I have no personal
    experience with it, however).

    In fact, it's probably safe to say that as far as software development
    goes, picking C would teach you worse habits than something like
    REALBasic, since C's support for modularity is so barebones.

    S.
    Skarmander, Oct 30, 2005
    #11
  12. Greg Comeau Guest

    In article <>,
    <> wrote:
    >...you experienced programmers of C; did you start with C? What course
    >of study did you pursue to get to where you are today?


    I did lots of PL/I, FORTRAN, Pascal, a bunch of specialized languages
    (LISP, SNOBOL, SPSS, etc), BASIC, assembler, etc. and tons of COBOL
    at school and in a classic mainframe data processing environment before,
    but also during, C. Some of it I did not care for, and some of it
    I ran from, but all have been important to have been through.
    That is to day, the diversity was the key to keeping me open-minded,
    able to deal with the different language cultures, etc.

    > Would you
    >suggest starting with REALbasic first for a n00b? I am completely new
    >to programming and using a Mac and would like some input as to where to
    >begin a career in programming. I know this is probably a somewhat
    >undefined question, but would appreciate you input/advice. Thanks.


    There is no requirement to start with BASIC. I have found that
    although the language at hand has big impacts, especially the first
    one, that also good instruction, good books, good resources, etc
    are just as important, and more so. So while each language has
    its limits and presents its own challenges, do note that learning
    programming is not just about learning the details of one or
    more languages (though again, they can be part of what shapes
    our perspectives), but also and more importantly about organization,
    problem solving, analytic breakdown, flow and structure and logic,
    style, being open minded, thinking things through, understanding
    problem domains, etc. Can you start with BASIC and do these
    things? Sure. Since you're asking in a C NG, can you start
    with C and do so too? Sure. http://www.comeaucomputing.com/booklist
    is perhaps one stop to make to look at resources. Obviously there
    is this NG. Do realize that programming is hard and everytime
    you think it is simple you should try to rediscover yourself
    and your skills.
    --
    Greg Comeau / Celebrating 20 years of Comeauity!
    Comeau C/C++ ONLINE ==> http://www.comeaucomputing.com/tryitout
    World Class Compilers: Breathtaking C++, Amazing C99, Fabulous C90.
    Comeau C/C++ with Dinkumware's Libraries... Have you tried it?
    Greg Comeau, Oct 30, 2005
    #12
  13. Zoso Guest

    Thanks! I'll check out the FAQs, too! -gene
    Zoso, Oct 30, 2005
    #13
  14. Zoso Guest

    I'm not familiar with what is available on a Mac. I suggest asking for

    suggestions in a Mac programming newsgroup. Since you asked in
    comp.lang.c, consider C

    Thanks - I appreciate your assistance - noted!
    Zoso, Oct 30, 2005
    #14
  15. Greg Comeau Guest

    Greg Comeau, Oct 30, 2005
    #15
  16. On 29 Oct 2005 18:15:28 -0700, in comp.lang.c ,
    wrote:

    >...you experienced programmers of C; did you start with C? What course
    >of study did you pursue to get to where you are today?


    I learned basic, pascal and Fortran first, in that order. Though I
    admit to stopping using Fortran as soon as I could...

    >Would you suggest starting with REALbasic first for a n00b?


    No idea, never played with realbasic. Pascal is a good language to
    start with though.

    Or if you're on a Mac why not install gcc and play with that and a
    good C learning book?

    --
    Mark McIntyre
    CLC FAQ <http://www.eskimo.com/~scs/C-faq/top.html>
    CLC readme: <http://www.ungerhu.com/jxh/clc.welcome.txt>

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    Mark McIntyre, Oct 30, 2005
    #16
  17. Randy Howard Guest

    Thad Smith wrote
    (in article
    <43643f2e$0$27310$>):

    >> What course
    >> of study did you pursue to get to where you are today?


    I think the OP will discover that the answer depends upon the
    age of the respondent, and won't be of much use today. He
    probably doesn't want to start out with PDP-11 assembler,
    Fortran, Snobol, Basic, etc.

    >> Would you
    >> suggest starting with REALbasic first for a n00b? I am completely new
    >> to programming and using a Mac and would like some input as to where to
    >> begin a career in programming. I know this is probably a somewhat
    >> undefined question, but would appreciate you input/advice. Thanks.

    >
    > I'm not familiar with what is available on a Mac.


    OS X is basically BSD UNIX with a nicer than usual window
    manager on top of it. Any language available open source is
    pretty much available. Apart from Microsoft proprietary
    (despite marketing claims to the contrary) language is available
    on it. Many come pre-installed or on the distribution DVD.

    > I suggest asking for
    > suggestions in a Mac programming newsgroup. Since you asked in
    > comp.lang.c, consider C!


    True, although as others have said, C probably isn't a great
    first language, unless you have a really good teacher. Back in
    the day, you started out in assembler first, to understand the
    basics of the system, but that doesn't seem to be much in form
    any more, and most people /never/ learn the low-level details,
    and admittedly don't need to learn them.

    For a first language, you might consider something like Ruby,
    which is useful for a lot of purposes, relatively clean
    syntactically, object-oriented (in a more rational manner than
    most) and has a very active development community right now.

    --
    Randy Howard (2reply remove FOOBAR)
    "The power of accurate observation is called cynicism by those
    who have not got it." - George Bernard Shaw
    Randy Howard, Oct 30, 2005
    #17
  18. vishnuvyas Guest

    wrote:
    > ...you experienced programmers of C; did you start with C? What course
    > of study did you pursue to get to where you are today? Would you
    > suggest starting with REALbasic first for a n00b? I am completely new
    > to programming and using a Mac and would like some input as to where to
    > begin a career in programming. I know this is probably a somewhat
    > undefined question, but would appreciate you input/advice. Thanks.


    I started out with logo, moved onto gwbasic, pascal, and then C. But
    even then, C is much trickier than it seems. Its a lot easier to 'shoot
    yourself in the foot', and can get hard if really don't have a kick-ass
    debugger.

    So I would suggest something like scheme/python to get started with,
    and if you are doing scheme get Dr.Scheme/PLTScheme, it has a decent
    IDE, and comes with a bunch of mature libraries to get you doing some
    nice stuff.

    Though that might teach you what programming in C is like the way a
    flight simulator teaches you what flying a f-14 is about. But when
    doing C, you would have to worry about a lot more (things that you
    shouldn't be worrying about without a very good reason, like say memory
    management).

    But thats still the tip of the iceberg, if you want a career in
    programming you have to know a whole bunch of languages from purely
    declarative ones like SQL to a bunch of domain specific languages that
    no-one uses. Also you have to deal with monstrocities like standards
    compliance, compiler issues, optimisiations, portability and friends..
    So it ain't a bed of roses, but if you like the challenge, there ain't
    anything that gives such a high as seeing your program working right
    (and it lasts till you figure out that evantual bug, or worse, some one
    else points it out).

    So, with an ominous 'best of luck'.. welcome to programming.

    Cheers
    Vishnu
    vishnuvyas, Oct 30, 2005
    #18
  19. In article <>,
    vishnuvyas <> wrote:

    >But thats still the tip of the iceberg, if you want a career in
    >programming you have to know a whole bunch of languages from purely
    >declarative ones like SQL to a bunch of domain specific languages that
    >no-one uses. Also you have to deal with monstrocities like standards
    >compliance, compiler issues, optimisiations, portability and friends..


    [OT]

    I suspect you did not mean to write that friends are a form of
    monstrosity ;-)


    [It is an obscure grammatical point. When you use a comma list in English
    then you do not put a comma between the second last item and the 'and'.
    Hence as you used a comma list and there is no comma before the 'and',
    the 'friends' becomes a seperate item on the list, instead of grouping
    together with "portability".]
    --
    If you lie to the compiler, it will get its revenge. -- Eric Sosman
    Walter Roberson, Oct 30, 2005
    #19
  20. Skarmander Guest

    Walter Roberson wrote:
    > In article <>,
    > vishnuvyas <> wrote:
    >
    >
    >>But thats still the tip of the iceberg, if you want a career in
    >>programming you have to know a whole bunch of languages from purely
    >>declarative ones like SQL to a bunch of domain specific languages that
    >>no-one uses. Also you have to deal with monstrocities like standards
    >>compliance, compiler issues, optimisiations, portability and friends..

    >
    >
    > [OT]
    >
    > I suspect you did not mean to write that friends are a form of
    > monstrosity ;-)
    >
    >
    > [It is an obscure grammatical point. When you use a comma list in English
    > then you do not put a comma between the second last item and the 'and'.
    > Hence as you used a comma list and there is no comma before the 'and',
    > the 'friends' becomes a seperate item on the list, instead of grouping
    > together with "portability".]


    "With gratitude to my parents, Mother Teresa and the Pope."

    Googling for "serial comma" gets you the details of the sordid debate
    for and against, of which, as obscure points go, there is of course
    plenty. :)

    S.
    Skarmander, Oct 30, 2005
    #20
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