Racial equality is a myth!

Discussion in 'HTML' started by Toby Inkster, Mar 10, 2005.

  1. Toby Inkster

    Toby Inkster Guest

    ronco wrote:

    > But if you test blacks in Africa, where they don't have the white
    > admixture (blacks in America average about 20% white blood), the average
    > IQ drops to around 60.


    It is well known that non-Westerners do poorly at Western IQ tests, simply
    because the design of the IQ test assumes knowledge of Western culture.

    A typical IQ test question is along the lines of... spot the odd one out:

    A. Tin-opener
    B. Wooden spoon
    C. Nail clippers
    D. Cheese grater

    It assumes you know the typical contents of a Western kitchen.

    But how about if the three kitchen implements were replaced with different
    varieties of African bread made from wheat flour, and the nail clippers
    were replaced with a type of African bread made from corn flour. Would
    *you* be able to spot the odd one out? Would a native African?

    And if you didn't guess it, the answer to the spot the odd one out
    question was B -- it doesn't have any sharp cutting edges. The others do.

    --
    Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS
    Contact Me ~ http://tobyinkster.co.uk/contact
     
    Toby Inkster, Mar 10, 2005
    #1
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  2. Toby Inkster wrote:
    > ronco wrote:


    >> But if you test blacks in Africa, where they don't have the white
    >> admixture (blacks in America average about 20% white blood), the average
    >> IQ drops to around 60.


    > It is well known that non-Westerners do poorly at Western IQ tests, simply
    > because the design of the IQ test assumes knowledge of Western culture.


    > A typical IQ test question is along the lines of... spot the odd one out:


    > A. Tin-opener
    > B. Wooden spoon
    > C. Nail clippers
    > D. Cheese grater


    > It assumes you know the typical contents of a Western kitchen.


    > But how about if the three kitchen implements were replaced with different
    > varieties of African bread made from wheat flour, and the nail clippers
    > were replaced with a type of African bread made from corn flour. Would
    > *you* be able to spot the odd one out? Would a native African?


    > And if you didn't guess it, the answer to the spot the odd one out
    > question was B -- it doesn't have any sharp cutting edges. The others do.


    Or C -- while the others are useful for preparation of food, nail
    clippers aren't.

    --
    Blinky Linux Registered User 297263
    Who has implemented Usenet Solution #45933:
    Now killing all posts originating at Google Groups
     
    Blinky the Shark, Mar 10, 2005
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. Toby Inkster

    WebMaster Guest

    "Blinky the Shark" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Toby Inkster wrote:
    > > ronco wrote:

    >
    > >> But if you test blacks in Africa, where they don't have the white
    > >> admixture (blacks in America average about 20% white blood), the

    average
    > >> IQ drops to around 60.

    >
    > > It is well known that non-Westerners do poorly at Western IQ tests,

    simply
    > > because the design of the IQ test assumes knowledge of Western culture.

    >
    > > A typical IQ test question is along the lines of... spot the odd one

    out:
    >
    > > A. Tin-opener
    > > B. Wooden spoon
    > > C. Nail clippers
    > > D. Cheese grater

    >
    > > It assumes you know the typical contents of a Western kitchen.

    >
    > > But how about if the three kitchen implements were replaced with

    different
    > > varieties of African bread made from wheat flour, and the nail clippers
    > > were replaced with a type of African bread made from corn flour. Would
    > > *you* be able to spot the odd one out? Would a native African?

    >
    > > And if you didn't guess it, the answer to the spot the odd one out
    > > question was B -- it doesn't have any sharp cutting edges. The others

    do.
    >
    > Or C -- while the others are useful for preparation of food, nail
    > clippers aren't.


    You both clearly demonstrated the fact that IQ tests are very close to
    useless to measure whatever :)

    Rudy


    > --
    > Blinky Linux Registered User 297263
    > Who has implemented Usenet Solution #45933:
    > Now killing all posts originating at Google Groups
    >
     
    WebMaster, Mar 10, 2005
    #3
  4. Toby Inkster

    mbstevens Guest

    WebMaster wrote:

    >
    > "Blinky the Shark" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    >> Toby Inkster wrote:
    >> > ronco wrote:

    >>
    >> >> But if you test blacks in Africa, where they don't have the white
    >> >> admixture (blacks in America average about 20% white blood), the

    > average
    >> >> IQ drops to around 60.

    >>
    >> > It is well known that non-Westerners do poorly at Western IQ tests,

    > simply
    >> > because the design of the IQ test assumes knowledge of Western culture.

    >>
    >> > A typical IQ test question is along the lines of... spot the odd one

    > out:
    >>
    >> > A. Tin-opener
    >> > B. Wooden spoon
    >> > C. Nail clippers
    >> > D. Cheese grater

    >>
    >> > It assumes you know the typical contents of a Western kitchen.

    >>
    >> > But how about if the three kitchen implements were replaced with

    > different
    >> > varieties of African bread made from wheat flour, and the nail clippers
    >> > were replaced with a type of African bread made from corn flour. Would
    >> > *you* be able to spot the odd one out? Would a native African?

    >>
    >> > And if you didn't guess it, the answer to the spot the odd one out
    >> > question was B -- it doesn't have any sharp cutting edges. The others

    > do.
    >>
    >> Or C -- while the others are useful for preparation of food, nail
    >> clippers aren't.

    >
    > You both clearly demonstrated the fact that IQ tests are very close to
    > useless to measure whatever :)


    Stephen Jay Gould has debunked the misuse of statistics
    by so-called IQ tests at length in "The Mismeasure of Man,"
    which, in 1981, anticipated the false arguments of
    "The Bell Curve" by many years.
    --
    mbstevens
     
    mbstevens, Mar 10, 2005
    #4
  5. WebMaster wrote:

    > "Blinky the Shark" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    >> Toby Inkster wrote:
    >> > ronco wrote:


    >> >> But if you test blacks in Africa, where they don't have the white
    >> >> admixture (blacks in America average about 20% white blood), the

    > average
    >> >> IQ drops to around 60.


    >> > It is well known that non-Westerners do poorly at Western IQ tests,

    > simply
    >> > because the design of the IQ test assumes knowledge of Western culture.


    >> > A typical IQ test question is along the lines of... spot the odd one

    > out:


    >> > A. Tin-opener
    >> > B. Wooden spoon
    >> > C. Nail clippers
    >> > D. Cheese grater


    >> > It assumes you know the typical contents of a Western kitchen.


    >> > But how about if the three kitchen implements were replaced with

    > different
    >> > varieties of African bread made from wheat flour, and the nail clippers
    >> > were replaced with a type of African bread made from corn flour. Would
    >> > *you* be able to spot the odd one out? Would a native African?


    >> > And if you didn't guess it, the answer to the spot the odd one out
    >> > question was B -- it doesn't have any sharp cutting edges. The others

    > do.


    >> Or C -- while the others are useful for preparation of food, nail
    >> clippers aren't.


    > You both clearly demonstrated the fact that IQ tests are very close to
    > useless to measure whatever :)


    That's the kind of stuff (equally valid answers) that used to make me
    crazy in school, when I took bullets for answering as above when it was
    a poorly designed test that was the problem.

    --
    Blinky Linux Registered User 297263
    Who has implemented Usenet Solution #45933:
    Now killing all posts originating at Google Groups
     
    Blinky the Shark, Mar 10, 2005
    #5
  6. Toby Inkster

    Toby Inkster Guest

    Blinky the Shark wrote:

    > Or C -- while the others are useful for preparation of food, nail
    > clippers aren't.


    C was originally "toilet brush", but I changed it to see how many people I
    could trick.

    --
    Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS
    Contact Me ~ http://tobyinkster.co.uk/contact
     
    Toby Inkster, Mar 10, 2005
    #6
  7. Toby Inkster wrote:
    > ronco wrote:
    >
    >> But if you test blacks in Africa, where they don't have the white
    >> admixture (blacks in America average about 20% white blood), the
    >> average IQ drops to around 60.

    >
    > It is well known that non-Westerners do poorly at Western IQ tests,
    > simply because the design of the IQ test assumes knowledge of Western
    > culture.
    >
    > A typical IQ test question is along the lines of... spot the odd one
    > out:
    >
    > A. Tin-opener
    > B. Wooden spoon
    > C. Nail clippers
    > D. Cheese grater
    >
    > It assumes you know the typical contents of a Western kitchen.


    Does that include student digs ? ;-)



    Richard.
     
    Richard Brooks, Mar 11, 2005
    #7
  8. Toby Inkster

    R2G2 Guest

    On 10 Mar 2005 19:25:23 GMT, Blinky the Shark <>
    wrote:

    >WebMaster wrote:
    >
    >> "Blinky the Shark" <> wrote in message
    >> news:...
    >>> Toby Inkster wrote:
    >>> > ronco wrote:

    >
    >>> >> But if you test blacks in Africa, where they don't have the white
    >>> >> admixture (blacks in America average about 20% white blood), the

    >> average
    >>> >> IQ drops to around 60.

    >
    >>> > It is well known that non-Westerners do poorly at Western IQ tests,

    >> simply
    >>> > because the design of the IQ test assumes knowledge of Western culture.

    >
    >>> > A typical IQ test question is along the lines of... spot the odd one

    >> out:

    >
    >>> > A. Tin-opener
    >>> > B. Wooden spoon
    >>> > C. Nail clippers
    >>> > D. Cheese grater

    >
    >>> > It assumes you know the typical contents of a Western kitchen.

    >
    >>> > But how about if the three kitchen implements were replaced with

    >> different
    >>> > varieties of African bread made from wheat flour, and the nail clippers
    >>> > were replaced with a type of African bread made from corn flour. Would
    >>> > *you* be able to spot the odd one out? Would a native African?

    >
    >>> > And if you didn't guess it, the answer to the spot the odd one out
    >>> > question was B -- it doesn't have any sharp cutting edges. The others

    >> do.

    >
    >>> Or C -- while the others are useful for preparation of food, nail
    >>> clippers aren't.

    >
    >> You both clearly demonstrated the fact that IQ tests are very close to
    >> useless to measure whatever :)

    >
    >That's the kind of stuff (equally valid answers) that used to make me
    >crazy in school, when I took bullets for answering as above when it was
    >a poorly designed test that was the problem.


    That's the kind of school we use now to see if children can explain
    and justify their answers, or just to get them to think and explore
    what they know about a topic. The answer could also be:

    B because it's natural, the others are made from man-made substances
    (presuming they're alloys),

    B because it burns, which is a non-reversible change, but the others
    melt, and could be made solid again

    D because the others have a 'p' in them

    --
    Beccy

    Bec but...
     
    R2G2, Mar 11, 2005
    #8
  9. Toby Inkster

    Els Guest

    R2G2 wrote:

    > On 10 Mar 2005 19:25:23 GMT, Blinky the Shark
    > <> wrote:
    >
    >>WebMaster wrote:
    >>
    >>> "Blinky the Shark" <> wrote in message
    >>> news:...
    >>>> Toby Inkster wrote:
    >>>> > ronco wrote:

    >>
    >>>> >> But if you test blacks in Africa, where they don't
    >>>> >> have the white admixture (blacks in America average
    >>>> >> about 20% white blood), the average
    >>>> >> IQ drops to around 60.

    >>
    >>>> > It is well known that non-Westerners do poorly at
    >>>> > Western IQ tests, simply
    >>>> > because the design of the IQ test assumes knowledge of
    >>>> > Western culture.

    >>
    >>>> > A typical IQ test question is along the lines of...
    >>>> > spot the odd one out:

    >>
    >>>> > A. Tin-opener
    >>>> > B. Wooden spoon
    >>>> > C. Nail clippers
    >>>> > D. Cheese grater

    >>
    >>>> > It assumes you know the typical contents of a Western
    >>>> > kitchen.

    >>
    >>>> > But how about if the three kitchen implements were
    >>>> > replaced with different
    >>>> > varieties of African bread made from wheat flour, and
    >>>> > the nail clippers were replaced with a type of African
    >>>> > bread made from corn flour. Would *you* be able to
    >>>> > spot the odd one out? Would a native African?

    >>
    >>>> > And if you didn't guess it, the answer to the spot the
    >>>> > odd one out question was B -- it doesn't have any
    >>>> > sharp cutting edges. The others do.

    >>
    >>>> Or C -- while the others are useful for preparation of
    >>>> food, nail clippers aren't.

    >>
    >>> You both clearly demonstrated the fact that IQ tests are
    >>> very close to useless to measure whatever :)

    >>
    >> That's the kind of stuff (equally valid answers) that used
    >> to make me crazy in school, when I took bullets for
    >> answering as above when it was a poorly designed test that
    >> was the problem.

    >
    > That's the kind of school we use now to see if children can
    > explain and justify their answers, or just to get them to
    > think and explore what they know about a topic. The answer
    > could also be:
    >
    > B because it's natural, the others are made from man-made
    > substances (presuming they're alloys),
    >
    > B because it burns, which is a non-reversible change, but
    > the others melt, and could be made solid again
    >
    > D because the others have a 'p' in them


    A cause it's got a hyphen, the others have a space

    B because it's the only one that actually says what it's made
    of instead of what it's for

    --
    Els
    http://locusmeus.com/
    Sonhos vem. Sonhos vão. O resto é imperfeito.
    - Renato Russo -
     
    Els, Mar 11, 2005
    #9
  10. Toby Inkster

    Toby Inkster Guest

    Els wrote:

    > B because it's the only one that actually says what it's made
    > of instead of what it's for


    A tin opener could theoretically be made of tin.

    --
    Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS
    Contact Me ~ http://tobyinkster.co.uk/contact
     
    Toby Inkster, Mar 11, 2005
    #10
  11. Toby Inkster

    Els Guest

    Toby Inkster wrote:

    > Els wrote:
    >
    >> B because it's the only one that actually says what it's made
    >> of instead of what it's for

    >
    > A tin opener could theoretically be made of tin.


    Not when spelled with a hyphen.

    --
    Els
    http://locusmeus.com/
    Sonhos vem. Sonhos vão. O resto é imperfeito.
    - Renato Russo -
     
    Els, Mar 11, 2005
    #11
  12. Toby Inkster

    dorayme Guest

    OT: IQ Tests

    There's been some stuff on IQ tests recently and it has been pointed out
    that many answers are equally valid to some questions. On the whole though,
    in our heart of hearts, we mostly know the answer (when we see it) that is
    expected and that in itself is a test of some kind of intelligence
    (involving background knowledge). The idea that different interpretations
    can produce equally valid answers can be used to avoid having to get it
    right. Just in case this point has not been made.

    Clear as mud? OK, analogy, you test students for artistic flair and set a
    task. Some students (who have none) splash stuff and call it modern art and
    are indignant that it is judged down (imagine the arguments they can use!).
    But in the end, they just have no talent in painting and this stuff won't
    wash.

    Not saying IQ tests are great or can't be misused, just that there are some
    important predictive types of intelligence that can be tested by them...

    dorayme
     
    dorayme, Mar 11, 2005
    #12
  13. Toby Inkster

    WebMaster Guest

    Re: IQ Tests

    "dorayme" <> wrote in message
    news:BE5875BA.F734%...
    > There's been some stuff on IQ tests recently and it has been pointed out
    > that many answers are equally valid to some questions. On the whole

    though,
    > in our heart of hearts, we mostly know the answer (when we see it) that is
    > expected and that in itself is a test of some kind of intelligence
    > (involving background knowledge). The idea that different interpretations
    > can produce equally valid answers can be used to avoid having to get it
    > right. Just in case this point has not been made.
    >
    > Clear as mud? OK, analogy, you test students for artistic flair and set a
    > task. Some students (who have none) splash stuff and call it modern art

    and
    > are indignant that it is judged down (imagine the arguments they can

    use!).
    > But in the end, they just have no talent in painting and this stuff won't
    > wash.
    >
    > Not saying IQ tests are great or can't be misused, just that there are

    some
    > important predictive types of intelligence that can be tested by them...


    I have an IQ over 150, when measured by those stupid tests. This makes me a
    genius (even when I take english based tests, while english sure as hell
    isn't my native language (I can manage 7 languages, english being the
    4th.)). Most of the time, I'm downright stupid :)
    IQ tests do not show anything but how good you are at a specific test at a
    specific moment...

    Rudy


    > dorayme
    >
     
    WebMaster, Mar 12, 2005
    #13
  14. Toby Inkster

    the idiot Guest

    "Blinky the Shark" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Toby Inkster wrote:
    > > ronco wrote:

    >
    > >> But if you test blacks in Africa, where they don't have the white
    > >> admixture (blacks in America average about 20% white blood), the

    average
    > >> IQ drops to around 60.

    >
    > > It is well known that non-Westerners do poorly at Western IQ tests,

    simply
    > > because the design of the IQ test assumes knowledge of Western culture.

    >
    > > A typical IQ test question is along the lines of... spot the odd one

    out:
    >
    > > A. Tin-opener
    > > B. Wooden spoon
    > > C. Nail clippers
    > > D. Cheese grater

    >
    > > It assumes you know the typical contents of a Western kitchen.

    >
    > > But how about if the three kitchen implements were replaced with

    different
    > > varieties of African bread made from wheat flour, and the nail clippers
    > > were replaced with a type of African bread made from corn flour. Would
    > > *you* be able to spot the odd one out? Would a native African?

    >
    > > And if you didn't guess it, the answer to the spot the odd one out
    > > question was B -- it doesn't have any sharp cutting edges. The others

    do.
    >
    > Or C -- while the others are useful for preparation of food, nail
    > clippers aren't.
    >

    they are if you like to eat nails.
     
    the idiot, Mar 12, 2005
    #14
  15. Re: IQ Tests

    Per WebMaster:
    >IQ tests do not show anything but how good you are at a specific test at a
    >specific moment...


    If you had to work with 10 people on a fairly-complex project would you chose to
    work with:

    1) 10 people with room-temperature IQs

    2) 10 people with IQ scores above 120

    ?
    --
    PeteCresswell
     
    (Pete Cresswell), Mar 12, 2005
    #15
  16. Toby Inkster

    Guest

    You are using an argument that is from the 1930's. Tests made later are
    designed to be "multi-culural."

    They would ask questions like:

    If there are are only 4 dogs and 3 chickens in a barn, how many feet
    are touching the ground?

    A: 8
    B: 22
    C: 24
    D: 20
    E: 18

    .... this assumes you know what a dog, chicken, and floor are.



    ....also, how would your question cause lower scores among black
    americans? They know what those kitchen implements are.



    -------------------------------
    white pride worldwide
    www.stormfront.org
     
    , Mar 12, 2005
    #16
  17. Re: IQ Tests

    On Fri, 11 Mar 2005 20:06:47 -0500, (Pete Cresswell) <> wrote:

    > Per WebMaster:
    >> IQ tests do not show anything but how good you are at a specific test at a
    >> specific moment...

    >
    > If you had to work with 10 people on a fairly-complex project would you chose
    > to work with:
    >
    > 1) 10 people with room-temperature IQs
    >
    > 2) 10 people with IQ scores above 120
    >


    That fully depends on for whome the notion 'complex' is valid. If it is complex
    for the first group, but not at all for the last, I might choose the first
    group. For them the project will be and stay a challange. The other group will
    soon get bored.
    If it is complex for the second group, the first will obviously not be the one
    you want steering the boat. But rowing, maybe.

    If it is complex for you, but not for those groups, well ... :p

    --
    ,-- --<--@ -- PretLetters: 'woest wyf', met vele interesses: ----------.
    | weblog | http://home.wanadoo.nl/b.de.zoete/_private/weblog.html |
    | webontwerp | http://home.wanadoo.nl/b.de.zoete/html/webontwerp.html |
    |zweefvliegen | http://home.wanadoo.nl/b.de.zoete/html/vliegen.html |
    `-------------------------------------------------- --<--@ ------------'
     
    Barbara de Zoete, Mar 12, 2005
    #17
  18. Toby Inkster

    Toby Inkster Guest

    ronco wrote:

    > If there are are only 4 dogs and 3 chickens in a barn, how many feet
    > are touching the ground?
    >
    > A: 8
    > B: 22
    > C: 24
    > D: 20
    > E: 18
    >
    > ... this assumes you know what a dog, chicken, and floor are.


    Answer is E. Chickens are birds. Two of them are flying around.

    > ...also, how would your question cause lower scores among black
    > americans?


    It wouldn't. And I have no evidence that black Americans *do* score poorly
    on the particular question I posed.

    My question was an example of a question that will cause some groups of
    otherwise intelligent people difficulties.

    IQ tests, while supposedly testing *intelligence* also assume a base level
    of *knowledge* about supposedly "every-day" concepts.

    Realistically, they *have* to assume a body of knowledge. Ideally,
    everyone taking the tests already knows this knowledge, so they can
    compete in the intelligence test with an equal footing. Practically
    though, "every-day" knowledge varies culturally -- not just by geography,
    but by religion, gender, age, socio-economic class and other factors.

    Consider a test arranging a group of words in alphabetical order. A Greek
    may put "Zulu" before "Oscar", because in the Greek alphabet, zeta
    (ζ) comes before omicron (ο) and omega (ω).

    Pure intelligence tests are difficult.

    Some aspects of intelligence may be tested purely -- tangrams are a good
    pure test of intelligence, but they only test one aspect (spacial
    awareness) and ones ability improves with practice.

    But a truly comprehensive pure intelligence test has so far eluded us.

    --
    Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS
    Contact Me ~ http://tobyinkster.co.uk/contact
     
    Toby Inkster, Mar 12, 2005
    #18
  19. Toby Inkster

    Toby Inkster Guest

    Re: IQ Tests

    WebMaster wrote:

    > I have an IQ over 150, when measured by those stupid tests.


    These online IQ tests are not a good guide to go by. They consistantly
    over-inflate IQ scores to make people feel good about themselves and keep
    people coming back.

    I recently got an IQ score of 155 in an online test, but in a somewhat
    more reliable test (a book endorsed by Mensa, who have a vested interest
    in accurate IQ measurement), scored nearly 20 points lower than that.

    --
    Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS
    Contact Me ~ http://tobyinkster.co.uk/contact
     
    Toby Inkster, Mar 12, 2005
    #19
  20. Toby Inkster

    Els Guest

    Toby Inkster wrote:

    > Pure intelligence tests are difficult.
    >
    > Some aspects of intelligence may be tested purely --
    > tangrams are a good pure test of intelligence, but they
    > only test one aspect (spacial awareness) and ones ability
    > improves with practice.
    >
    > But a truly comprehensive pure intelligence test has so far
    > eluded us.


    Those tests they do with chimpansees come pretty close though.
    You know, the ones where they put a banana in a tube that's too
    narrow for them to enter and see how they solve the problem ;-)

    --
    Els
    http://locusmeus.com/
    Sonhos vem. Sonhos vão. O resto é imperfeito.
    - Renato Russo -
     
    Els, Mar 12, 2005
    #20
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