shopping for an html editor

Discussion in 'HTML' started by Lisa, Apr 9, 2007.

  1. Lisa

    Lisa Guest

    I've been using homesite 4.5/homesite for probably 7 years, so it's
    been awhile since I've looked at any other software. I'm only looking
    now since I can't find my 4.5 upgrade for homesite to use on my
    laptop.
    Here are some things I'd like to have - some that were available in
    the SGML software I used ages ago but haven't seen in HTML software.
    -integrated ftp that only uploads pages you have changed
    -link checking
    -orphan file/image checking
    -html validation
    -css editor
    -ability to map your own keyboard shortcuts
    -it would be wonderful to have a tool that uncluttered MS html, or the
    ability to remove all span tags, all attributes from p, etc. that's
    what my authors write in.
    -ability to select the contents of a tag with or without the tag
    -find and replace across a whole project

    I'm using windows vista. any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.
    Thanks,
    Lisa
     
    Lisa, Apr 9, 2007
    #1
    1. Advertising

  2. Lisa wrote :
    > I've been using homesite 4.5/homesite for probably 7 years, so it's
    > been awhile since I've looked at any other software. I'm only looking
    > now since I can't find my 4.5 upgrade for homesite to use on my
    > laptop.



    I recommend handcoding with an advanced text editor, otherwise - if
    you're too accustomed to a WYSIWYG HTML editor - I recommend KompoZer 0.77.

    > Here are some things I'd like to have - some that were available in
    > the SGML software I used ages ago but haven't seen in HTML software.
    > -integrated ftp that only uploads pages you have changed


    FireFTP 0.95.2.1 (latest version), an extension add-on for Firefox 2.
    I've been using it for over 3 months now and highly recommend it.
    http://fireftp.mozdev.org/
    or
    https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/684

    It's much better than current Nvu 1.0 Site Manager or KompoZer 0.77 Site
    Manager.


    > -link checking


    W3C link checker is the best tool I can recommend because it can detect
    and report redirected links, not just "404 not found" or others.
    http://validator.w3.org/checklink

    Otherwise, I recommend and occasionally use
    LinkChecker 0.6.1, an extension add-on for Firefox 2
    http://www.kevinfreitas.net/extensions/linkchecker/
    or
    https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/532


    > -orphan file/image checking


    There must be a Firefox add-on extension for this or a developer toolbar.

    > -html validation


    Nvu 1.0 and KompoZer 0.77 can do that. Otherwise HTML validation (latest
    version for true SGML parsing is 0.8.3.9), a Firefox add-on extension
    can do that.

    https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/249
    or
    http://users.skynet.be/mgueury/mozilla/index.html

    What I like about HTML validation 0.8.3.9 is that it can work offline
    and can also report HTML Tidy warnings.

    I use HandCoder 0.3.4 when upgrading severely broken webpages.

    > -css editor


    KasCades (CSS editor) from within KompoZer 0.77 has a CSS editing tool.
    Nvu 1.0 also has CasCades (CSS editor) .

    > -ability to map your own keyboard shortcuts
    > -it would be wonderful to have a tool that uncluttered MS html, or the
    > ability to remove all span tags, all attributes from p, etc. that's
    > what my authors write in.


    Nvu 1.0 and KompoZer 0.77 have a built-in Markup cleaner feature. I use
    HandCoder 0.3.4 with the latest HTML Tidy (April 2007) for poorly
    written webpages. So, you can customize how much cleaning (pretty
    printing, removing, replacing, etc.) you want: Tidy is highly configurable.

    You may want to read my post in another thread in this newsgroup on this
    (Subject line was: Standard HTML by open-source WYSIWYG editor?).

    > -ability to select the contents of a tag with or without the tag


    Interesting request...otherwise I don't understand what you're looking
    for. I'm not sure if any web authoring editor can do that with a single
    click.

    > -find and replace across a whole project


    Nvu 1.0 and KompoZer 0.77 can do that. Lots of other web authoring tools
    or advanced text editors can also do that.

    >
    > I'm using windows vista. any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.
    > Thanks,
    > Lisa
    >


    I recommend KompoZer 0.77

    http://kompozer.net/

    until Composer 2 is released. KompoZer 0.77 and Composer 2 (when it will
    be released) are open-source software, free software,
    translated/localized software, multi-platform software, with a bunch of
    extensions available. Otherwise, hand-coding webpages with an advanced
    text editor is what I recommend.

    Gérard
    --
    Using Web Standards in your Web Pages (Updated Dec. 2006)
    http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/Using_Web_Standards_in_your_Web_Pages
     
    =?ISO-8859-1?Q?G=E9rard_Talbot?=, Apr 9, 2007
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. Lisa

    BootNic Guest

    > Lisa <> wrote:
    > news:
    > I've been using homesite 4.5/homesite for probably 7 years, so it's
    > been awhile since I've looked at any other software. I'm only looking
    > now since I can't find my 4.5 upgrade for homesite to use on my
    > laptop.

    [snip]
    http://www.blumentals.net/webuilder/

    Vary similar to Homesite 5.

    --
    BootNic Monday, April 09, 2007 11:00 PM

    Man who fight with wife all day get no piece at night.
    *Ancient Chinese Proverbs*
     
    BootNic, Apr 10, 2007
    #3
  4. Lisa

    John Hosking Guest

    Gérard Talbot wrote:

    > I recommend KompoZer 0.77.


    > FireFTP 0.95.2.1 (latest version), an extension add-on for Firefox 2.


    > Otherwise, I recommend and occasionally use LinkChecker 0.6.1


    > Nvu 1.0 and KompoZer 0.77 can do that. Otherwise HTML validation (latest
    > version for true SGML parsing is 0.8.3.9), a Firefox add-on extension
    > can do that.


    > I use HandCoder 0.3.4 when upgrading severely broken webpages.


    > KasCades (CSS editor) from within KompoZer 0.77 has a CSS editing tool.
    > Nvu 1.0 also has CasCades (CSS editor) .


    > Nvu 1.0 and KompoZer 0.77 have a built-in Markup cleaner feature. I use
    > HandCoder 0.3.4


    > Nvu 1.0 and KompoZer 0.77 can do that. Lots of other web authoring tools
    > or advanced text editors can also do that.


    > I recommend KompoZer 0.77



    Talk about living on the Bleeding Edge of Technology! What do you do,
    Gérard, *uninstall* software when it comes out of Beta? ;-)

    --
    John
     
    John Hosking, Apr 10, 2007
    #4
  5. Lisa

    Guest

    On 9 Apr, 21:02, "Lisa" <> wrote:
    > I've been using homesite 4.5/homesite for probably 7 years, so it's
    > been awhile since I've looked at any other software. I'm only looking
    > now since I can't find my 4.5 upgrade for homesite to use on my
    > laptop.
    > Here are some things I'd like to have - some that were available in
    > the SGML software I used ages ago but haven't seen in HTML software.
    > -integrated ftp that only uploads pages you have changed
    > -link checking
    > -orphan file/image checking
    > -html validation
    > -css editor
    > -ability to map your own keyboard shortcuts
    > -it would be wonderful to have a tool that uncluttered MS html, or the
    > ability to remove all span tags, all attributes from p, etc. that's
    > what my authors write in.
    > -ability to select the contents of a tag with or without the tag
    > -find and replace across a whole project
    >
    > I'm using windows vista. any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.
    > Thanks,
    > Lisa


    I use DW 8 and I'm very happy with it, but DW CS3 is out soon, so i'd
    wait for that. (you'll be able to try it in about 6 weeks when Adobe
    release the trial software)

    Paul
     
    , Apr 10, 2007
    #5
  6. Lisa

    patrick j Guest

    On Apr 9, 2007 Lisa wrote:

    > Here are some things I'd like to have - some that were available in
    > the SGML software I used ages ago but haven't seen in HTML software.
    > -integrated ftp that only uploads pages you have changed
    > -link checking
    > -orphan file/image checking
    > -html validation
    > -css editor
    > -ability to map your own keyboard shortcuts
    > -it would be wonderful to have a tool that uncluttered MS html, or the
    > ability to remove all span tags, all attributes from p, etc. that's
    > what my authors write in.
    > -ability to select the contents of a tag with or without the tag
    > -find and replace across a whole project


    I would echo [0] those that suggest an advanced text editor. Looking at
    your requirements you might be happier with that. Don't be put off by the
    phrase "advanced text editor" because I think getting your head around
    using one of these is easier than learning how to use a "WYSIWYG" editor
    personally. I do have Dreamweaver (I got it for practically no money as I
    work at a University) but I've never been much good at figuring it all out,
    to me it seems to make life very complicated compared to just using a good
    text editor. I can't suggest a text editor in particular for you because I
    use a Mac and don't know the Windows world very well. However there are
    many excellent text editors for Windows.

    With the text editor you will want GREP (regular expressions) searching and
    multi-file/disc searching.

    The multi-file/disc searching will achieve the "find and replace across a
    whole project" requirement you mention. If you haven't used GREP before you
    will be surprised how easy it is to pick up. The basics can be learned in
    an afternoon. It is easier to figure out than learning some new application
    and once you have the idea of GREP it will be a great friend to you in
    creating web-pages. With a fairly basic knowledge of GREP for example you
    will easily be able to "remove all span tags" or "all attributes from p,
    etc" or have the "ability to select the contents of a tag with or without
    the tag" . An advanced text editor will most likely allow you to save GREP
    expressions and so you can create your own custom "cleaning" expressions
    suited ideally to your situation.

    My text editor BBEdit (Mac only) does do FTP but in fact your FTP request
    will be easily accomplished with a separate FTP client. My FTP client has a
    "mirror" capability where it matches the contents of a file on my computer
    with the directory on the server. So, it only changes the files that have
    been changed. This is a common enough capability and I'm sure there are
    even free FTP clients that will do this.

    I don't know if the text editors for Windows include HTML validation
    by-and-large but this is bound to be available. On my Mac I use the iCab
    web-browser but once again this is Mac only.

    [0] but not in a PHP kind of a way :)

    --
    Patrick - Brighton, UK
    If you wish email me from my web-site: <http://www.patrickjames.me.uk>
    Inventory service in Sussex: <http://www.inventoryworks.co.uk>
     
    patrick j, Apr 10, 2007
    #6
  7. Lisa

    Sid Guest

    On 9 Apr 2007 13:02:44 -0700, "Lisa" <> wrote:

    : I've been using homesite 4.5/homesite for probably 7 years, so it's
    : been awhile since I've looked at any other software. I'm only looking
    : now since I can't find my 4.5 upgrade for homesite to use on my
    : laptop.


    Ask for the update, or download it? Isn't your registration details
    current?

    I would stick to Homesite as it's fabulous!

    Sid
     
    Sid, Apr 10, 2007
    #7
  8. Lisa wrote:

    > -integrated ftp that only uploads pages you have changed


    FTP is an insecure protocol that sends your both password and your files
    across the Internet unencrypted. I'd advise against using FTP and moving
    towards something like SCP or SFTP.

    Most hosts that support those protocols also support Rsync, which is a
    fantastic tool for synchronising large collections of files. Not only does
    it only copy across files that have been changed, for large files it
    actually inspects *inside* the file and only sends across the *parts* of
    the files that are different.

    It's a command-line tool, but there are various GUI wrappers available for
    it.

    > -link checking


    I'd advise an online tool for this -- there are plenty of them, and
    they'll save your bandwidth.

    > -it would be wonderful to have a tool that uncluttered MS html, or the
    > ability to remove all span tags, all attributes from p, etc. that's
    > what my authors write in.


    Try "Tidy" <http://tidy.sf.net/>

    > -find and replace across a whole project


    Many text editors offer this. My current favourites are Nedit, SciTE and
    TextWrangler.

    --
    Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS
    Contact Me ~ http://tobyinkster.co.uk/contact
    Geek of ~ HTML/SQL/Perl/PHP/Python*/Apache/Linux

    * = I'm getting there!
     
    Toby A Inkster, Apr 10, 2007
    #8
  9. Lisa

    Bergamot Guest

    Bergamot, Apr 10, 2007
    #9
  10. wrote :
    > On 9 Apr, 21:02, "Lisa" <> wrote:
    >> I've been using homesite 4.5/homesite for probably 7 years, so it's
    >> been awhile since I've looked at any other software. I'm only looking
    >> now since I can't find my 4.5 upgrade for homesite to use on my
    >> laptop.
    >> Here are some things I'd like to have - some that were available in
    >> the SGML software I used ages ago but haven't seen in HTML software.
    >> -integrated ftp that only uploads pages you have changed
    >> -link checking
    >> -orphan file/image checking
    >> -html validation
    >> -css editor
    >> -ability to map your own keyboard shortcuts
    >> -it would be wonderful to have a tool that uncluttered MS html, or the
    >> ability to remove all span tags, all attributes from p, etc. that's
    >> what my authors write in.
    >> -ability to select the contents of a tag with or without the tag
    >> -find and replace across a whole project
    >>
    >> I'm using windows vista. any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.
    >> Thanks,
    >> Lisa

    >
    > I use DW 8


    How much DW 8 costs? And does it produce valid markup code out of the
    box? Does it have the latest HTML Tidy built-in? Does it help fix CSS
    parsing errors? etc.. You should expect a huge difference in
    performance, quality, support, etc.. when buying a product like DW 8.

    and I'm very happy with it, but DW CS3 is out soon

    How many hundreds of dollars will it cost?
    I ask this because I know that there are free open-source software
    (FOSS) available out there which, thanks to extensions - also free,
    upgradable, localizable -, can do as much as the latest DW can and
    without the flaws and weaknesses of DW. That's my opinion.

    Gérard
    --
    Using Web Standards in your Web Pages (Updated Dec. 2006)
    http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/Using_Web_Standards_in_your_Web_Pages
     
    =?ISO-8859-1?Q?G=E9rard_Talbot?=, Apr 11, 2007
    #10
  11. Lisa wrote :

    > -it would be wonderful to have a tool that uncluttered MS html, or the
    > ability to remove all span tags, all attributes from p, etc. that's
    > what my authors write in.


    Depending on what you want to remove, I can assure you that there are a
    few free open-source software tools which can do uncluttering:

    - KompoZer 0.77 markup cleaner will fix nested lists, remove trainling
    <br> that WYSIWYG HTML editors often leave, remove align attributes in
    empty table cells, remove empty blocks (like <p></p>). HTML Tidy will do
    all this, except maybe fix nested lists

    - HTML Tidy (April 2007 version) has to be your first tool because it is
    mighty powerful and amazing at fixing severely poorly coded webpages.
    The nice thing about HTML Tidy is that you can use it on a batch of many
    webpages. It's highly configurable (with about 100 parameters possible: see
    http://tidy.sourceforge.net/docs/quickref.html
    )
    and very powerful. I've used it for over a year now and definitely
    recommend it. Around the web, you'll find lots of GUI programs for it.
    For fixing 1 single webpage at a time, I use HandCoder 0.3.4
    http://fabiwan.kenobi.free.fr/HandCoder/
    from within KompoZer 0.77. HandCoder is not built-in in KompoZer: you
    have to download it and install it. And you can download the latest .exe
    available version of HTML Tidy here (in a .zip file):

    http://www.paehl.com/open_source/?HTML_Tidy_for_Windows

    There are GUI programs for Tidy which will fix many webpages in a batch:
    you can also do this in a console window (command-line function calls).
    I assure you that understanding how to use + configure HTML Tidy is
    worth the trouble.

    HTML Tidy will also fix validation markup errors but not all of them.
    You'll still need to validate your webpages with a true SGML parser
    software.

    Gérard
    --
    Using Web Standards in your Web Pages (Updated Dec. 2006)
    http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/Using_Web_Standards_in_your_Web_Pages
     
    =?ISO-8859-1?Q?G=E9rard_Talbot?=, Apr 11, 2007
    #11
  12. Scripsit Gérard Talbot:

    > - KompoZer 0.77 markup cleaner will fix nested lists, remove trainling
    > <br> that WYSIWYG HTML editors often leave, remove align attributes in
    > empty table cells, remove empty blocks (like <p></p>). HTML Tidy will
    > do all this, except maybe fix nested lists


    Thanks for the heads-up.

    Such tools should _not_ be used without great discretion.

    Apart from fixing nested lists, which is a vague expression and could mean
    just about anything, all of these operations change the document and cause
    largely unpredictable effects on its visual appearance.

    For example, authors and editors often insert consecutive <br> tags to
    produce some vertical spacing. That's a wrong approach, but so is the
    operation of blindly removing them. The author wanted to create some
    spacing, so the author should decide what to do. Maybe the spacing _could_
    be removed. Maybe some simple CSS code should be added while removing the
    tags.

    Even "cleaning" <td align="right"></td> to <td></td> is wrong if you don't
    know what will happen, and a simple program surely cannot know that. Maybe
    the attribute is there for no good reason, but it's possible that it's there
    intentionally, e.g. because some client-side script will change the
    element's content to nonempty and the author wanted that content to be
    right-aligned.

    > - HTML Tidy (April 2007 version) has to be your first tool because it
    > is mighty powerful and amazing at fixing severely poorly coded
    > webpages.


    I didn't know there's a new version of Tidy; I thought the software was
    effectively frozen. Now I'm afraid I need to take a look, and I'm afraid I
    will be disappointed. When I last tested Tidy, it did _far too much_
    "fixing", making wild assumptions and even changing simple presentational
    HTML to awfully ugly and poorly structured tag soup in a CSS flavor as well
    as changing my perfectly good ISO-8895-1 characters into messy "escapes".

    > The nice thing about HTML Tidy is that you can use it on a batch of
    > many webpages. It's highly configurable (with about 100 parameters
    > possible: see http://tidy.sourceforge.net/docs/quickref.html
    > )
    > and very powerful.


    That might be nice, but if the defaults for the parameters are poor, I
    cannot really recommend it to most people. Few people will be capable of
    setting, say, 50 parameters to reasonable values when the programmer was not
    able to do that.

    > HTML Tidy will also fix validation markup errors but not all of them.
    > You'll still need to validate your webpages with a true SGML parser
    > software.


    That sounds odd. If it is mightly powerful etc. etc., how come it can't do
    the fairly simple job of SGML validation - at least with the DTD fixed to
    one of HTML DTDs?

    --
    Jukka K. Korpela ("Yucca")
    http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/
     
    Jukka K. Korpela, Apr 11, 2007
    #12
  13. Lisa

    Chaddy2222 Guest

    On Apr 11, 5:02 pm, "Jukka K. Korpela" <> wrote:
    > Scripsit Gérard Talbot:
    >
    > > - KompoZer 0.77 markup cleaner will fix nested lists, remove trainling
    > > <br> that WYSIWYG HTML editors often leave, remove align attributes in
    > > empty table cells, remove empty blocks (like <p></p>). HTML Tidy will
    > > do all this, except maybe fix nested lists

    >
    > Thanks for the heads-up.
    >
    > Such tools should _not_ be used without great discretion.
    >
    > Apart from fixing nested lists, which is a vague expression and could mean
    > just about anything, all of these operations change the document and cause
    > largely unpredictable effects on its visual appearance.
    >
    > For example, authors and editors often insert consecutive <br> tags to
    > produce some vertical spacing. That's a wrong approach, but so is the
    > operation of blindly removing them. The author wanted to create some
    > spacing, so the author should decide what to do. Maybe the spacing _could_
    > be removed. Maybe some simple CSS code should be added while removing the
    > tags.
    >
    > Even "cleaning" <td align="right"></td> to <td></td> is wrong if you don't
    > know what will happen, and a simple program surely cannot know that. Maybe
    > the attribute is there for no good reason, but it's possible that it's there
    > intentionally, e.g. because some client-side script will change the
    > element's content to nonempty and the author wanted that content to be
    > right-aligned.
    >

    <rest of post snip>
    Yes, the markup cleaner in KompoZer can cause some unwanted thing to
    happen. As an example if you have an empty div which just contains a
    wrapper / container for the entire page <div id="wrapper"</div> just
    as an example. The mark-up cleaner in NVU / KompoZer will remove that
    div and hence mess up your layout. Thankfully you can press control Z
    to undo the changes, or click the edit menu and press Undo and the
    page is back to normal, but a pain none the less.
    --
    Regards Chad. http://freewebdesign.cjb.cc
     
    Chaddy2222, Apr 11, 2007
    #13
  14. Lisa

    Bergamot Guest

    Gérard Talbot wrote:
    >
    > I recommend KompoZer 0.77


    I might recommend KompoZer if it didn't mangle my nice clean code so
    badly. It can't even keep the <title> straight. :(

    > until Composer 2 is released.


    Which won't be for some time yet, but I do look forward to it.

    My interest is providing clients that don't need anything as elaborate
    as a CMS with a simple tool to edit their text once I've put their site
    together. These are people who would try to do it themselves in MS
    Publisher (ick!) if left to their own devices. For my purposes KZ does
    badly, NVU does better.

    > hand-coding webpages with an advanced
    > text editor is what I recommend.


    In a perfect world, sure. :)

    --
    Berg
     
    Bergamot, Apr 11, 2007
    #14
  15. Bergamot wrote :
    > Gérard Talbot wrote:
    >> I recommend KompoZer 0.77

    >
    > I might recommend KompoZer if it didn't mangle my nice clean code so
    > badly. It can't even keep the <title> straight. :(
    >


    Mangling with markup code is a nasty, annoying problem with Nvu and
    KompoZer. All I can suggest is to install the add-on extension HandCoder
    0.3.4 with the latest HTML Tidy

    http://www.paehl.com/open_source/?HTML_Tidy_for_Windows


    >> until Composer 2 is released.

    >


    As I understand this, Composer 2 will be XUL-based and won't have that
    mangling effect on the code.

    > Which won't be for some time yet, but I do look forward to it.
    >
    > My interest is providing clients that don't need anything as elaborate
    > as a CMS with a simple tool to edit their text once I've put their site
    > together. These are people who would try to do it themselves in MS
    > Publisher (ick!) if left to their own devices. For my purposes KZ does
    > badly, NVU does better.
    >
    >> hand-coding webpages with an advanced
    >> text editor is what I recommend.

    >
    > In a perfect world, sure. :)
    >


    Gérard
    --
    Using Web Standards in your Web Pages (Updated Dec. 2006)
    http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/Using_Web_Standards_in_your_Web_Pages
     
    =?ISO-8859-1?Q?G=E9rard_Talbot?=, Apr 11, 2007
    #15
  16. Jukka K. Korpela wrote :
    > Scripsit Gérard Talbot:
    >
    >> - KompoZer 0.77 markup cleaner will fix nested lists, remove trainling
    >> <br> that WYSIWYG HTML editors often leave, remove align attributes in
    >> empty table cells, remove empty blocks (like <p></p>). HTML Tidy will
    >> do all this, except maybe fix nested lists

    >
    > Thanks for the heads-up.
    >
    > Such tools should _not_ be used without great discretion.
    >
    > Apart from fixing nested lists, which is a vague expression and could
    > mean just about anything,


    All previous Mozilla Composer versions were not creating nested lists in
    a valid manner. They were creating improperly nested lists like this:

    <ul>
    <li>first item at first level</li>
    <ul>
    <li>first item of second level</li>
    <li>second item of second level</li>
    </ul>
    <li>second item at first level</li>
    </ul>

    > all of these operations change the document
    > and cause largely unpredictable effects on its visual appearance.
    >
    > For example, authors and editors often insert consecutive <br> tags to
    > produce some vertical spacing. That's a wrong approach, but so is the
    > operation of blindly removing them. The author wanted to create some
    > spacing, so the author should decide what to do. Maybe the spacing
    > _could_ be removed. Maybe some simple CSS code should be added while
    > removing the tags.
    >


    Excellent suggestion. I know you and I have mentioned, talked about this
    (arbitrary number of consecutive <br> should be better replaced with a
    sensible CSS margin-bottom declaration) before in this newsgroup.
    Composer 2 could have a feature like this: convert consecutive <br> into
    a correspondent margin-bottom of/for the previous block-level element.

    Same thing with "drop-empty-paras: specifies if Tidy should discard
    empty paragraphs (<p></p>)."
    http://tidy.sourceforge.net/docs/quickref.html#drop-empty-paras

    > Even "cleaning" <td align="right"></td> to <td></td> is wrong if you
    > don't know what will happen,


    Maybe a better HTML Tidy documentation, support or FAQ or "how to use"
    document should be developed so that users could see/understand how/what
    a setting can do, will do.

    and a simple program surely cannot know
    > that.


    People shouldn't use/trust blindly an application at first: they should
    back up their work and then experiment.


    > Maybe the attribute is there for no good reason, but it's possible
    > that it's there intentionally, e.g. because some client-side script will
    > change the element's content to nonempty and the author wanted that
    > content to be right-aligned.


    That would be rather rare, I'd say. Chances are, most of the time, the
    left/center/right-alignment attributes were semi-automatically added by
    a previous/older/other WYSIWYG HTML editor

    >> - HTML Tidy (April 2007 version) has to be your first tool because it
    >> is mighty powerful and amazing at fixing severely poorly coded
    >> webpages.

    >
    > I didn't know there's a new version of Tidy; I thought the software was
    > effectively frozen. Now I'm afraid I need to take a look, and I'm afraid
    > I will be disappointed. When I last tested Tidy, it did _far too much_
    > "fixing", making wild assumptions and even changing simple
    > presentational HTML to awfully ugly


    It's possible... and that should be rare... otherwise you'd invited to
    file a bug on this.
    The difficult part with Tidy is finding the correct (for your needs),
    best/optimal blend of parameters so that it minimizes "ugly fixes"
    occurences.

    > and poorly structured tag soup in a
    > CSS flavor


    What are your settings/parameters? Here are mine:

    --char-encoding latin1 --clean yes --doctype strict --drop-font-tags yes
    --drop-proprietary-attributes yes --enclose-block-text yes
    --enclose-text yes --indent auto --logical-emphasis yes --replace-color
    yes --show-warnings no --wrap 80

    All these are the ones that needed to be changed (for me, for my task)
    as I did not want their default value. All of the other parameters (some
    70-80 parameters) in their default value are ok with me.

    > as well as changing my perfectly good ISO-8895-1 characters
    > into messy "escapes".


    You need to check the char-encoding parameter
    http://tidy.sourceforge.net/docs/quickref.html#char-encoding
    and possibly change it from ascii to latin1 since the default is ascii

    "Good iso-8859-1 converted into messy 'escapes'" could mean, most
    probably mean that input-encoding and output-encoding are not (but
    should be) synchronized.
    "Tidy will accept Latin-1 (ISO-8859-1) character values, but will use
    entities for all characters whose value > 127."
    http://tidy.sourceforge.net/docs/quickref.html#char-encoding

    My solution/proposal for you: use
    --char-encoding latin1

    The default values for both parameters (input-encoding and
    output-encoding) are not synchronized... which is non-sense. If the
    default value for input-encoding is latin1, then the default value of
    output-encoding should be latin1 too.

    >
    >> The nice thing about HTML Tidy is that you can use it on a batch of
    >> many webpages. It's highly configurable (with about 100 parameters
    >> possible: see http://tidy.sourceforge.net/docs/quickref.html
    >> )
    >> and very powerful.

    >
    > That might be nice, but if the defaults for the parameters are poor, I
    > cannot really recommend it to most people. Few people will be capable of
    > setting, say, 50 parameters to reasonable values when the programmer was
    > not able to do that.


    You shouldn't have to set 50 parameters... otherwise, it means the
    default parameter value are often not best. I personally set only 12
    parameters and I think I could even drop one or 2 when upgrading webpages.
    I also think that HTML Tidy is not a good, recommendable tool for
    totally new comers to HTML edition. A less powerful, less configurable
    version of HTML Tidy might be recommendable for newbies though.


    >> HTML Tidy will also fix validation markup errors but not all of them.
    >> You'll still need to validate your webpages with a true SGML parser
    >> software.

    >
    > That sounds odd. If it is mightly powerful etc. etc., how come it can't
    > do the fairly simple job of SGML validation - at least with the DTD
    > fixed to one of HTML DTDs?


    That is a suggestion, a certainly reasonable good suggestion.
    Latest HTML Tidy (.exe) version is 102 KB; a true SGML validation fixed
    to, say, HTML 4.01 strict DTD would probably be more than 600 KB, would
    be more complex/longer to develop - not that fairly simple, as you say
    -, would require a lenghty documentation, etc. With so many invalid
    webpages out there, it is very much still worth the trouble to do this.
    W3C people should have done this many years ago and made such product
    free, open-source, easily available, easily embeddable in applications.

    Many of the available WYSIWYG HTML editors (commercial ones or freeware
    ones) do not have HTML Tidy built-in nor SGML parsing feature built-in
    .... and that is a shame.

    Gérard
    --
    Using Web Standards in your Web Pages (Updated Dec. 2006)
    http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/Using_Web_Standards_in_your_Web_Pages
     
    =?ISO-8859-1?Q?G=E9rard_Talbot?=, Apr 11, 2007
    #16
  17. Chaddy2222 wrote :
    > On Apr 11, 5:02 pm, "Jukka K. Korpela" <> wrote:
    >> Scripsit Gérard Talbot:
    >>



    > <rest of post snip>
    > Yes, the markup cleaner in KompoZer can cause some unwanted thing to
    > happen. As an example if you have an empty div which just contains a
    > wrapper / container for the entire page


    So, it's not an empty <div> then, right?

    <div id="wrapper"</div> just
    > as an example. The mark-up cleaner in NVU / KompoZer will remove that
    > div and hence mess up your layout. Thankfully you can press control Z
    > to undo the changes, or click the edit menu and press Undo and the
    > page is back to normal, but a pain none the less.
    > --
    > Regards Chad. http://freewebdesign.cjb.cc


    KompoZer's markup cleaner has "remove empty blocks" and it should only
    remove markup like:

    <div> </div> or <p> </p> often used to vertically ventilate, space out
    blocks

    It shouldn't remove wrapping div or wrapping block-level elements.

    --------------

    HTML Tidy has another feature, somewhat similar.

    merge-divs
    http://tidy.sourceforge.net/docs/quickref.html#merge-divs

    {
    merge-divs: This option specifies if Tidy should merge nested <div> such
    as "<div><div>...</div></div>". If set to "auto", the attributes of the
    inner <div> are moved to the outer one. As well, nested <div> with ID
    attributes are not merged. If set to "yes", the attributes of the inner
    <div> are discarded with the exception of "class" and "style".
    }

    HTML Tidy could propagate a page wrapping div into the body element.

    e.g. with a typical 2 column page layout:

    <body>
    <div id="PageWrapper">
    <div id="PageHeader">
    ...
    </div>
    <div id="NavigationPane">
    ...
    </div>
    <div id="CentralContentPane">
    ...
    </div>
    <div id="PageFooter">
    ...
    </div>
    </div>
    </body>

    should be converted into

    <body>
    <div id="PageHeader">
    ...
    </div>
    <div id="NavigationPane">
    ...
    </div>
    <div id="CentralContentPane">
    ...
    </div>
    <div id="PageFooter">
    ...
    </div>
    </body>

    with style declarations, presentation data of PageWrapper moved to body.

    Gérard
    --
    Using Web Standards in your Web Pages (Updated Dec. 2006)
    http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/Using_Web_Standards_in_your_Web_Pages
     
    =?ISO-8859-1?Q?G=E9rard_Talbot?=, Apr 11, 2007
    #17
  18. Lisa

    Lisa Guest

    On Apr 10, 6:19 am, wrote:
    > On 9 Apr, 21:02, "Lisa" <> wrote:
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > > I've been using homesite 4.5/homesite for probably 7 years, so it's
    > > been awhile since I've looked at any other software. I'm only looking
    > > now since I can't find my 4.5 upgrade for homesite to use on my
    > > laptop.
    > > Here are some things I'd like to have - some that were available in
    > > the SGML software I used ages ago but haven't seen inHTMLsoftware.
    > > -integrated ftp that only uploads pages you have changed
    > > -link checking
    > > -orphan file/image checking
    > > -htmlvalidation
    > > -csseditor
    > > -ability to map your own keyboard shortcuts
    > > -it would be wonderful to have a tool that uncluttered MShtml, or the
    > > ability to remove all span tags, all attributes from p, etc. that's
    > > what my authors write in.
    > > -ability to select the contents of a tag with or without the tag
    > > -find and replace across a whole project

    >
    > > I'm using windows vista. any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.
    > > Thanks,
    > > Lisa

    >
    > I use DW 8 and I'm very happy with it, but DW CS3 is out soon, so i'd
    > wait for that. (you'll be able to try it in about 6 weeks when Adobe
    > release the trial software)
    >
    > Paul- Hide quoted text -
    >
    > - Show quoted text -


    Dreamweaver used to change your written code. Does it still do that?
    Thanks,
    Lisa
     
    Lisa, Apr 25, 2007
    #18
  19. Jukka K. Korpela wrote :

    [snipped]

    (...) as well as changing my perfectly good ISO-8895-1 characters
    > into messy "escapes".


    [snipped]

    > That might be nice, but if the defaults for the parameters are poor


    [ Bug 723951 ] Tidy should not declare us-ascii encoding

    "The default input encoding is windows-1252-tolerant iso-
    8859-1; Tidy should neither declare windows-1252, so it
    should declare iso-8859-1 by default and windows-1252
    if Tidy finds Windows-1252 characters where it is unable
    to use character references."
    http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=723951&group_id=27659&atid=390963

    Gérard
    --
    Using Web Standards in your Web Pages (Updated Dec. 2006)
    http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/Using_Web_Standards_in_your_Web_Pages
     
    =?ISO-8859-1?Q?G=E9rard_Talbot?=, Apr 26, 2007
    #19
    1. Advertising

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