slightly OT: BUT NEEDs to be said

[Nomen Nescio]

Hi I downloaded this document about Python recently:

http://datamining.anu.edu.au/~ole/publications/python.pdf

I loved the cute little Snake graphic.

I think it would be great for Python.org/people behind Python to adopt this
as an official mascot and DROP the god awful references to Monty Pythons's
Flying Circus. It is the later which is causing a slow take up and reluctance
of many individuals using Python. MPFC is a very very dated concept and because
of it's strange whacky 'humour' has dubious extreme and loony left wing allegiences
is not a good backdrop for Python. You should never bring politics into your
product. Understand that in the UK a lot of people don't find MPFC amusing,
and many of the 'comedians' have become extremely dispised (like Michael Palin
who is universally recognised as a figure of great nauseum) and have become
objects of ridicule.

Let me put it this way Python as a languge and product is *damaged* by the
references littered everywhere to MPFC. It colours the experience of it and
when I think what scripting language shall I use to get x task done I think
Python could do that and then oh no I'm not paying homage to the ghastly awful
MPFC shit which I hate and will use Perl or PHP instead which are considerably
more artistically 'neutral'

I quite like Python as a language (apart from the tabbing replacing curly brackets
which I'm not sure about) and think it stands up well to Perl and PHP but I
cannot abide the nauseating, puke enducing, gut-wrenching, toe-curling references
to Monty Python's shitty flying circus which is very much part of the *past*
of an era in British comedy and should not be part of any software package's
image.

Please adopt the cute Python graphic as your official logo and mascot which
works much better because it conjures up a *much more* positive metaphor of
a powerfully slippery creature wrapping itself round numbers and strings etc.

regards

 

[Colin Blackburn]

[...]

Let me put it this way Python as a languge and product is *damaged* by
the
references littered everywhere to MPFC. It colours the experience of it
and
when I think what scripting language shall I use to get x task done I
think
Python could do that and then oh no I'm not paying homage to the ghastly
awful
MPFC shit which I hate and will use Perl or PHP instead which are
considerably
more artistically 'neutral'

[...]

Do you have a problem with your news posting software? This post arrived
four days late at my server.

Colin
--

 

[Peter Hansen]

Hi I downloaded this document about Python recently:

I loved the cute little Snake graphic.

Some people despise snakes, and are terrified of them.

I think it would be great for Python.org/people behind Python to adopt this
as an official mascot and DROP the god awful references to Monty Pythons's
Flying Circus. It is the later which is causing a slow take up and reluctance
of many individuals using Python. MPFC is a very very dated concept and because
of it's strange whacky 'humour' has dubious extreme and loony left wing allegiences
is not a good backdrop for Python. You should never bring politics into your
product.

Nor, perhaps, should you bring politics into your arguments, at least
not if you want to maintain credibility with a largely technical crowd.

I quite like Python as a language (apart from the tabbing replacing curly brackets
which I'm not sure about)

So clearly you haven't used it even enough to get past this concern
about indentation, which generally goes away after only a few days
or perhaps weeks of use. That hurts your credibility as well...

and think it stands up well to Perl and PHP but I
cannot abide the nauseating, puke enducing, gut-wrenching, toe-curling references

Please, stop, you're ranting and getting spittle on your keyboard.

Come back another time without the venomous, near-psychotic
aversion to a comedy troupe which many people actually *like*,
and try to make your point again. You might get a better
reception.

If you've managed to read this far, which I doubt, then I want you
to know that you might actually have a point. At least about the
Monty Python references not being a particular _strength_ in
promoting Python. (Note how that was said in a positive manner
instead of a raving one?) Nevertheless, you've just insulted a
very large number of the people who participate here frequently,
and you should think about how (in)effective that will make your
argument.

Cheers,
-Peter

 

[Dave Brueck]

I think it would be great for Python.org/people behind Python to adopt this
as an official mascot and DROP the god awful references to Monty Pythons's
Flying Circus. It is the later which is causing a slow take up and reluctance
of many individuals using Python. [snip]
Let me put it this way Python as a languge and product is *damaged* by the
references littered everywhere to MPFC.

Well, I'll probably get in big trouble for revealing this, but the references
to Monty Python are the result of a very conscious decision on the part of
Python's authors, and they make up but a small part of an elaborate set of user
filters that ensure that only a certain subset of programmers will ever use the
language.

For example, the real reason flame wars on c.l.py are quite tame by Usenet
standards isn't because programming in Python makes you a happier, and in turn
a nicer person, but it's because the group / mailing list regulars are more or
less ALL THE SAME TYPE OF PEOPLE - they are all people who were not removed by
the user filters, and therefore make up a more or less homogeneous bunch. To
hide this fact occasionally someone will get a private email instructing them
to bring up American politics or some other topic sure to incite controversy.
Sure, they obey and bring it up in a thread, but it dies off so quickly because
it's hard to put one's heart into it.

I remember that one time the user filters were suspected by some outsiders, and
Guido privately threatened to introduce mandatory curly braces around code
blocks if we as a group didn't convince people "on the outside" that the
filters didn't exist - hence the big conditional operator debate of '03. We
actually got assigned sides in that debate - didn't even get to pick them
ourselves.

Anyway, the Monty Python references filter out people that are too uptight
humor-wise, but there are many others. For example, if you ask about
significant whitespace you'll get a hand-waving answer about some mysterious
usability study in the ABC language, but nobody's actually ever seen it. In
reality, it's just the filter that gets rid of people who fall apart upon
learning that tedious work they diligently performed in the past was
detrimental to their health (this filter does not work 100% of the time, thus
the more reliable no-variable-type-declarations filter).

The whole "Guido is Dutch" thing is another one - this time used to eliminate
those who fear the unknown. He was born and raised in Quebec, and the accent is
actually French, but so few of us Americans know the difference that it never
gets him in trouble.

There are more filters in place, all of them organized and perpetuated by the
Python Secret Underground - a dark, time-machine wielding organization about
which little is known. Occasionally some details of its work slip through to
the public
(http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=9jah18$fqu%
241%40newshost.accu.uu.nl), but often I can't tell if such snafus are honest
mistakes, bait to throw us off-track, or encrypted recruitment messages.

Somebody's at my door - better send this off quick. Before I do though, I do
want to shed light on the all-time greatest user filter put in place by the
PSU - the autocoding project by Ti.*%^ NO CARRIER

 

[Mel Wilson]

Hi I downloaded this document about Python recently:

http://datamining.anu.edu.au/~ole/publications/python.pdf

I loved the cute little Snake graphic.

I think it would be great for Python.org/people behind Python to adopt this
as an official mascot and DROP the god awful references to Monty Pythons's
Flying Circus. [ ... ]

The link with Monty Python's Flying Circus is the only
thing that lets us logically use the cute little snake as
our mascot. Ask yourself, "Could a language named after a
snake have a pet comedy troupe?"

Regards. Mel.

 

[Andrei]

Nomen Nescio wrote on Mon, 5 Apr 2004 16:50:04 +0200 (CEST):

I think it would be great for Python.org/people behind Python to adopt this
as an official mascot and DROP the god awful references to Monty Pythons's
Flying Circus. It is the later which is causing a slow take up and reluctance
of many individuals using Python. MPFC is a very very dated concept and because
of it's strange whacky 'humour' has dubious extreme and loony left wing allegiences
is not a good backdrop for Python. You should never bring politics into your

<snip>

LOL! Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition! (Somebody had to say it...)

MPFC shit which I hate and will use Perl or PHP instead which are considerably

You do know what next-gen Perl will compile to, right? Parrot! Guess where
that name *really* comes from .

a powerfully slippery creature

Yeeewwwwww...

--
Yours,

Andrei

=====
Real contact info (decode with rot13):
(e-mail address removed). Fcnz-serr! Cyrnfr qb abg hfr va choyvp cbfgf. V ernq
gur yvfg, fb gurer'f ab arrq gb PP.

 

[Nomen Nescio]

Some people despise snakes, and are terrified of them.

Everyone loves cute cuddly snakes and no one in their right mind is afraid
of them. They don't carry any political baggage or meaning.

Nor, perhaps, should you bring politics into your arguments, at least
not if you want to maintain credibility with a largely technical crowd.

I think politics are introduced when the author uses MPFC as the basis.

So clearly you haven't used it even enough to get past this concern
about indentation, which generally goes away after only a few days
or perhaps weeks of use. That hurts your credibility as well...

Ok. Well the indentation thing which is largely irrelivant...

If you've managed to read this far, which I doubt, then I want you
to know that you might actually have a point. At least about the
Monty Python references not being a particular _strength_ in
promoting Python.

Sorry if I was ranting but here is some more rant:

People have very real reason to fear MPFC: Highly educated/wealthy family background/private
school/Oxford/Cambridge people jumping about and acting 'zany' and coming up
with all sorts of useless sketches designed to appeal strictly to the liberal-elite
is a fairly repulsive artistic concept especially if you do not find the style
of MPFC even remotely amusing.

Unfortunately this formula (hiring these sorts of people) was to become the
bed rock of BBC alternative comedy for years to come (Ben Elton, Steven Fry
etc etc) and remember people in the UK did not have the choice about this crap
as it came out of their licence fee (that is another subject)

So anyway I don't see quite those sorts of concepts woven into PHP, Perl,C,C++,
Java or anything else....although there may well be similar things but *well*
hidden as they should be

If someone came up with a KKK language it might be attractive for members of
the KKK but would generally be consideredly highly unacceptable and would attract
much criticism. If someone came up with a language/interpreter based on their
favourite TV show like I dunno 'Friends' or whatever it would be seen as ridiculous.
If I came up with a scripting language called 'Ben Elton' then that would have
extreme political overtones and just invoke all Ben Eltons extreme left wing
radicalism.

At the least MPFC is divisive (you either find it funny or you don't)

Surely the uptake and use of a particular language (to solve a particular niche
or set of problems) is at least in part due to the perceived politcal and artist
*neutrality* of that language.

If the author and contributors to Python wish to only encourage Python use
on the basis that the end user has great admiration of MPFC (as amusingly hinted
at by one of the other authors in this thread) you should perhaps restrict
access to python.org and related sites and authenticate on that basis and call
it a private members club....

Cuddly cartoon characters like the Snake, or various BSD creatures = highly
acceptable and good.

MPFC = too aristically/politically/socially 'loaded' to be acceptable.

Please drag the Python and python.org image out of the stuffy past and in line
with similar projects

regards

 

[Stefan Axelsson]

Cuddly cartoon characters like the Snake, or various BSD creatures = highly
acceptable and good.

Well, one shouldn't feed the trolls. (And kudos on a well done one at
that.) BUT, on the subject of "highly acceptable and good" BSD creatures
see: http://www.erenkrantz.com/Humor/BSDDaemon.shtml for an encounter
with at least two people (and I use that term losely) who would beg to
disagree. If you think "Oxford liberals" are scary...

Stefan,

 

[Mike C. Fletcher]

Oh, I *so* have more important things to do , but okay, I'll play
along for a few seconds...

....

Cuddly cartoon characters like the Snake, or various BSD creatures = highly
acceptable and good.

In terms of "acceptable and good" I think you'll find that Snakes and
Devils/Daemons aren't really high on many people's lists, but then you
know that and are just yanking the chain .

MPFC = too aristically/politically/socially 'loaded' to be acceptable.

Here's the thing, you object to the use of MPFC because you see the
particular show as a *silly* waste of money. It's *not taking yourself
so seriously that you lose your sense of humour* that makes MPFC a fine
choice.

The commercial-tower Oak runs around telling the world that it's the
second coming of computer science, the caffeinated solution to all your
problems if you'll just sit down and drink the acorn tea. It knows that
if it can just scream loud enough then people will overlook it's poor
character and weird obsessions and maybe pronounce it king.

Python hasn't developed that level of insecurity, it's perfectly willing
to admit its failings, it's happy to poke fun at itself and admit that
it needs C to be successful; sure, it's better and more privileged than
all of the other programming languages; sure, it's had the best
education and derived huge benefit from it; sure, it's received
patronage from the programming elite; sure, it has metaclasses, list
comprehensions and descriptors like any decent ivory-tower language; but
in the end, all that means nothing if it can't find the humanity in the
situation of explaining things to computers, if you can't make
programming just a little easier for the regular folks.

And if you are taking all *that* seriously, then really, go do a funny
walk somewhere and relax about it. We all pay taxes, and sometimes it
funds things we don't like, it's part of modern life. Sometimes other
people like TV shows we think are insipid or offensive, this too is part
of life, and if you realise and accept that (within reason) you'll be
happier and more content.

Oh, and I like the snake more than the TV show too .

Good luck with coming to terms with all this,
Mike

_______________________________________
Mike C. Fletcher
Designer, VR Plumber, Coder
http://members.rogers.com/mcfletch/

 

[Peter Hansen]

Everyone loves cute cuddly snakes and no one in their right mind is afraid
of them. They don't carry any political baggage or meaning.

"Cuddly"? I'd hate to meet your girlfriend... and after reading
the first lines of your response I can see clearly you are just
trolling and don't really want a serious discussion. If that's
not a true statement, at least back off this ludicrous claim
and let's try to carry on a rationale discussion. Else: bye.

-Peter

 

[Greg Ewing]

much criticism. If someone came up with a language/interpreter based on their
favourite TV show like I dunno 'Friends' or whatever it would be seen as ridiculous.

Aha! I've been trying to decide what to name the next language
I invent, and now I know. It will be called:

Buffy

Greg Ewing, Computer Science Dept,
University of Canterbury,
Christchurch, New Zealand
http://www.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz/~greg

 

[Paul McGuire]

ridiculous.

Aha! I've been trying to decide what to name the next language
I invent, and now I know. It will be called:

Buffy

Greg Ewing, Computer Science Dept,
University of Canterbury,
Christchurch, New Zealand
http://www.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz/~greg

Too late.

http://www.smotricz.com/opensource/buffy/

(It's not a language, but it is in the same vein.)

-- Paul

 

[Steve]

Aha! I've been trying to decide what to name the next language
I invent, and now I know. It will be called:

Buffy

Nice choice! But I think "buffy" would surely have to
be some sort of command-line buffer tool, or better
still, anti-buffer overflow security software. Buffy
could save the world from security holes.

If you ask me, I think "xander" sounds more like a
computer language, but "willow" would probably be more
appropriate. And of course then when people write in to
complain about how politically incorrect it is to name
a programming language for a red-haired Jewish lesbian
witch, we can deflect criticism by telling them it is
named after the movie of the same name about the Little
People.

 

[Erik Heneryd]

Hi I downloaded this document about Python recently:

http://datamining.anu.edu.au/~ole/publications/python.pdf

I loved the cute little Snake graphic.

FYI: That's not a Python snake, but a Pythonware one (notice the white x
on blue) and probably used without the artists (Joakim Löw) knowledge.

/Erik Heneryd
(formerly at Pythonware/Secret Labs)

 

[Gonçalo Rodrigues]

On Mon, 5 Apr 2004 21:50:07 +0200 (CEST), Nomen Nescio

[some text snipped]

Sorry if I was ranting but here is some more rant:

People have very real reason to fear MPFC: Highly educated/wealthy family background/private
school/Oxford/Cambridge people jumping about and acting 'zany' and coming up
with all sorts of useless sketches designed to appeal strictly to the liberal-elite
is a fairly repulsive artistic concept especially if you do not find the style
of MPFC even remotely amusing.

Unfortunately this formula (hiring these sorts of people) was to become the
bed rock of BBC alternative comedy for years to come (Ben Elton, Steven Fry
etc etc) and remember people in the UK did not have the choice about this crap
as it came out of their licence fee (that is another subject)

So anyway I don't see quite those sorts of concepts woven into PHP, Perl,C,C++,
Java or anything else....although there may well be similar things but *well*
hidden as they should be

If someone came up with a KKK language it might be attractive for members of
the KKK but would generally be consideredly highly unacceptable and would attract
much criticism. If someone came up with a language/interpreter based on their
favourite TV show like I dunno 'Friends' or whatever it would be seen as ridiculous.
If I came up with a scripting language called 'Ben Elton' then that would have
extreme political overtones and just invoke all Ben Eltons extreme left wing
radicalism.

At the least MPFC is divisive (you either find it funny or you don't)

Surely the uptake and use of a particular language (to solve a particular niche
or set of problems) is at least in part due to the perceived politcal and artist
*neutrality* of that language.

If the author and contributors to Python wish to only encourage Python use
on the basis that the end user has great admiration of MPFC (as amusingly hinted
at by one of the other authors in this thread) you should perhaps restrict
access to python.org and related sites and authenticate on that basis and call
it a private members club....

Cuddly cartoon characters like the Snake, or various BSD creatures = highly
acceptable and good.

MPFC = too aristically/politically/socially 'loaded' to be acceptable.

<amazed> Unbelievable... "socially loaded"... unbelievable...

Please drag the Python and python.org image out of the stuffy past and in line
with similar projects

And you sir, are a Troll.

With my best regards,
G. Rodrigues

 

[Colin Blackburn]

People have very real reason to fear MPFC: Highly educated/wealthy
family background/private
school/Oxford/Cambridge people jumping about and acting 'zany' and
coming up
with all sorts of useless sketches designed to appeal strictly to the
liberal-elite
is a fairly repulsive artistic concept especially if you do not find the
style
of MPFC even remotely amusing.

Unfortunately this formula (hiring these sorts of people) was to become
the
bed rock of BBC alternative comedy for years to come (Ben Elton, Steven
Fry
etc etc) and remember people in the UK did not have the choice about
this crap
as it came out of their licence fee (that is another subject)

Ben Elton went to Manchester Uni, in a northern industrial city, a far cry
from Oxbridge.

We did have a choice we could watch commercial ITV, unfortunately it's
crap.

Colin
--

 

[Paul Boddie]

I think it would be great for Python.org/people behind Python
to adopt this as an official mascot and DROP the god awful
references to Monty Pythons's Flying Circus. It is the later
which is causing a slow take up and reluctance of many
individuals using Python.

PHB #1: "Python was proposed as an implementation technology for
the project."
PHB #2: "I didn't find Quest for the Holy Grail funny at all.
Just didn't get it."
PHB #1: "Scratch Python, then - do it in Java instead!"

MPFC is a very very dated concept and because of it's strange
whacky 'humour' has dubious extreme and loony left wing
allegiences is not a good backdrop for Python. You should never
bring politics into your product.

I think *you* did that, actually.

Understand that in the UK a lot of people don't find MPFC
amusing,

In my experience, people who make such overt generalisations about
British culture don't tend to be British, but instead turn out to be
people trying to flaunt some kind of British "credentials".

and many of the 'comedians' have become extremely
dispised (like Michael Palin who is universally recognised as
a figure of great nauseum) and have become objects of ridicule.

Universally ridiculed in your clique? Is this what you spend your time
doing these days, Mr Campbell [1]? ;-)

Paul

[1] http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3028250.stm

 

[Arthur]

Sometimes other
people like TV shows we think are insipid or offensive, this too is part
of life, and if you realise and accept that (within reason) you'll be
happier and more content.

Despite having loud issues about community conformity and peer
pressures (isolated issues, but loud ones) I must say that the fact
that the Holy Grail movie was one of only 3 I ever walked out on,
hasn't seemed to brand me. I was feeling particularly fragile, I
remember, and looking for comic relief. The dismembering stuff - as a
comic notion - didn't work for me, at the moment. Wuss.

For those on the edge of their seats:

2. Problem Child: "If he pees in the lemonade" , I told my son, "we're
out of here". He pees in the lemonade.

3. Priscilla Queen of the Desert: There were options, it seemed to me.
Take off the dress in the Outback, being one. There has to be a way to
promote a message of tolerance, it seems to me, without making putzes
out of guys living on their brawn and wits in the Outback.

Art

 

[Josiah Carlson]

Despite having loud issues about community conformity and peer
pressures (isolated issues, but loud ones) I must say that the fact
that the Holy Grail movie was one of only 3 I ever walked out on,
hasn't seemed to brand me. I was feeling particularly fragile, I
remember, and looking for comic relief. The dismembering stuff - as a
comic notion - didn't work for me, at the moment. Wuss.

For those on the edge of their seats:

2. Problem Child: "If he pees in the lemonade" , I told my son, "we're
out of here". He pees in the lemonade.

3. Priscilla Queen of the Desert: There were options, it seemed to me.
Take off the dress in the Outback, being one. There has to be a way to
promote a message of tolerance, it seems to me, without making putzes
out of guys living on their brawn and wits in the Outback.

Art

You are lumping "Monty Python and the Holy Grail", "Problem Child" and
"The Adventures of Priscilla, Queen of the Desert" together in one
message saying, "they all suck" (to some degree or another).

If at any point you thought "Problem Child" was going to be good to
watch, either for you or your son, then you need a /serious/ parental
wakeup call. Watching 30 seconds of trailer when I was 10, was enough
to convince me that it was a worthless piece of crap, and I was part of
the core demographic.

As an aside, have you bothered to see "...Holy Grail" since you walked
out of it, or have you damned it based on your impression of it while
you were "feeling particularly fragile"? Just curious.

As for you not enjoying "Priscilla...", well, that is unfortunate.
However, the message was not that of tolerance, tolerance carries one
unfortunate meaning - you tolerate the kid on the airplane kicking your
seat. Perhaps you meant acceptance. And yes, there have been many
movies about non-heterosexual lifestyles made, some better, some worse.
The choices the writer/director made in regards to "Priscilla..." were
his to make, and again, it is unfortunate that you didn't enjoy the movie.

- Josiah

 

[Dang Griffith]

Somebody's at my door - better send this off quick. Before I do though, I do
want to shed light on the all-time greatest user filter put in place by the
PSU - the autocoding project by Ti.*%^ NO CARRIER

I hated to do that, but someone had to stop him.
He was confusing my cat.
--dang