This is why Ruby 1.8.6 can never be made to run anywhere near as fast as Python 2.5.1

[Chad Perrin]

And when did Ruth leave the community? Please don't tell me Grace left too!

I've been Ruthless my whole life. I've only been Graceless since she
dumped me in 2003.

 

[William James]

Well ... if the bitwise operations are built into the "scripting
language", why *shouldn't* they be used? It's not like you have to make
them up by converting the bytes to floating point values, converting
them to an array of floating point ones and zeroes and doing ANDs and
ORs on them with floating point equality tests in IF statements!

It's a question of scale. I'd certainly use it on a small file.
But as we've all seen, using it on a 20-megabyte file will make one
wish he'd used a faster language.

 

[Robert Dober]

You sure do seem to know a lot about trolls.

Seriously, though, any move that falls outside the troll's script is a
valid move. Not playing at all works, but rarely, since not everyone
follows that advice.

I've found that trolling the troll also works, that is, making plausible
but ridicuous arguments in order to frustrate the troll. This is a
difficult maneuver in a public forum like this one.

Responding in kindness rather than argumentatively works as well, if the
troll's intentions were to start an argument.

People with crediblity should almost never respond to a troll, because
their response gives the troll credibility, so if you are going to try
to beat the troll at his own game, get an alias, or limit your responses
to those which reduce the troll's credibility while keeping your own
intact.

Calling the troll a troll is dangerous, since it's essentially an ad
hominem attack that can reduce your own credibility over time.

The goal in any response to a thread started by the troll should be to
prevent thread explosion. If the thread has already reached critical
mass, responding to the thread further postpones its death.

Trolls can also show up in real life situations. These trolls are best
handled by turning the forum into a debate so, keeping in mind that the
goal of a debate is to convince the audience rather than the other
person.

Paul

What do you have against trolls, did you not here about the newest
revelations about Koom valley ?
Sorry I could not resist; for those who do not read all Terry
Pratchett books ...

I am not sure if there is any better strategy than ignoring them,
there are sometimes of course very serious and valid posts because
some people do not think it is a troll in the first place and starting
a discussion about what to do about trolls in the troll's thread might
be counter productive.
I tend to ignore them, and sometimes I throw in a "Don't feed the
troll" when I feel it is appropriate (carries information for the
replier).

After all if the troll gets some food the thread becomes uninteresting...
Sometimes I try to warn people not to lose their time, but it is
*their* time anyway.

Cheers
Robert

 

[Shai Rosenfeld]

i find this thread interesting enough without all the 'troll' remarks.
(ie comments like chad perrin ; relevant professional remarks)

tia

 

[William James]

Can I ask why *ANYBODY* took a message by someone calling themselves
"Ruby Maniac" and using expressions like "cute language" as anything but
a troll? Anybody? Anybody? Bueller?

Don't dignify these kinds of things with responses, peeps.

I think the o.p. isn't exactly a troll. I think he is simply young,
naive,
inexperienced, and presumptuous. There seems to be some honesty in
his
posts.

 

[Robert Dober]

i find this thread interesting enough without all the 'troll' remarks.
(ie comments like chad perrin ; relevant professional remarks)

Shai I believe this is indeed why we worry about getting trolls down,
they might shadow some interesting poi. Without that they could be
ignored as a minor nuisance.

Now that other thread might not even qualify as a troll thread ( I
believe it does but it is quite borderline ).

tia

zio

Cheers
Robert

 

[Bill Kelly]

I think the o.p. isn't exactly a troll. I think he is simply young,
naive, inexperienced, and presumptuous. There seems to be some honesty
in his posts.

Yes, I got the same impression - until he made this claim:

If I wanted blazing performance I would write Aseembly Language (been
there and done that back in the day when 8 bits was all there was) but
one must commit a lot of time to hand-crafting Assembly code and most
of the time I just don't have that much time to spend writing code.

Incidentally, a Google search reveals that someone having his email
address has caused something of a ruckus in another online community:

http://www.coldfusionjedi.com/index.cfm/2006/1/17/Grabbing-the-Bull-by-the-Horns

http://www.firemoss.com/blog/index.cfm?mode=entry&entry=D87EDD28-E081-2BAC-69B923575744C5F4



Regards,

Bill

 

[Robert Dober]

I've been Ruthless my whole life. I've only been Graceless since she
dumped me in 2003.

C'on Chad please correct this false second sentence .
Cheers
Robert

 

[Chad Perrin]

C'on Chad please correct this false second sentence .

No, really. I dated someone named Grace. She dumped me in 2003. What's
so false about that?

 

[Chad Perrin]

i find this thread interesting enough without all the 'troll' remarks.
(ie comments like chad perrin ; relevant professional remarks)

I'm afraid I'm not entirely clear on your meaning in your parenthetical
comments. Please rephrase for me, if you don't mind.

If I'm just missing the obvious intent, I blame my headache.

 

[Bill Kelly]

I'm afraid I'm not entirely clear on your meaning in your parenthetical
comments. Please rephrase for me, if you don't mind.

My impression was that Shai had found value in posts such as yours
( http://blade.nagaokaut.ac.jp/cgi-bin/scat.rb/ruby/ruby-talk/270601 )
and that Shai was pointing out that the meta discussion about
responding to trolls was essentially adding noise to the thread.


Regards,

Bill

 

[Chad Perrin]

My impression was that Shai had found value in posts such as yours
( http://blade.nagaokaut.ac.jp/cgi-bin/scat.rb/ruby/ruby-talk/270601 )
and that Shai was pointing out that the meta discussion about
responding to trolls was essentially adding noise to the thread.

Thank you. Looking at it again, your interpretation seems an obvious one
in retrospect.

It's definitely the headache.

. . and thanks as well to Shai.

 

[M. Edward (Ed) Borasky]

Yes, I got the same impression - until he made this claim:

Speaking as someone who spent a good portion of his career writing
assembly language, I can assure you that every assembly language
programmer ends up creating "domain-specific languages", libraries,
object frameworks, design patterns, etc. They may not have *called* them
that back in the "good old days", but that's in fact what they were.

Assembly language programming has a bad reputation, unjustified in my
opinion. And please, don't say, "C is an assembler language". It isn't
-- it's a high-level Algol derivative with pointers, indirect addressing
and bit-diddling, but it *isn't* an assembly language.

And I can remember a time well *before* "8 bits was all there was". The
smallest thing you could call a digital computer had 12-bit words, It
took some serious genius to make 4-bit and 8-bit computers.

 

[7stud --]

I've dabbled in a number of languages, but I've written actual
production code in assembler, Forth, C, C++, Objective-C, Java,
Perl, Python, Ruby, and (kill me now) VB6.

Hi,

Thanks for the well written post. Can you give a little more insight
into how you came to be using ruby as your programming language of
choice instead of any of the other languages you mentioned. I know why
you might choose ruby over C/C++ or Java, but what lead you to choose
ruby over python, which as far as I can tell is ruby's closest neighbor.

Thanks.

 

[Michael T. Richter]

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Thanks for the well written post. Can you give a little more insight=20
into how you came to be using ruby as your programming language of=20
choice instead of any of the other languages you mentioned. I know why=20
you might choose ruby over C/C++ or Java, but what lead you to choose=20
ruby over python, which as far as I can tell is ruby's closest neighbor.

I'm not Bill, but I can give you a data point related to the one you're
looking for. I'm a former Python user and (local) evangelist. Way back
when Ruby was still 0.9.something, I was using Python in my work and at
home all the time. I was doing the former, in fact, despite a company
directive saying that we should only be using C++, VB (since I was
writing a VB toolkit at the time) and tcl, of all things. (Java was
being added at the end of my tenure in that position.) I did this
because I found Python easy to program in and especially well-suited to
the kinds of code generation I had to do to fill out all the crappy
boilerplate that dominates C/C++/Java code. It was also well-suited to
driving tests.

I dropped Python because of its community.

When I started with Python -- back about v1.2 or 1.3 -- the Python
community was mostly friendly and helpful. It was a joy to be in. It
changed and it changed dramatically over time. Now I see a coterie of
people who basically sneer at anybody who isn't in their circle and who
are utterly intolerant of viewpoints not their own. And, as you can
often see in Ruby circles, they have an alarming tendency to go to other
communities to do their sneering. The friendly, warm, vibrant community
surrounding a decent language -- and I still do think Python is a good
language; I'm probably unusual among Rubistas for this -- vanished over
the years and was replaced by people I really didn't want anything to do
with.

As a language I think Ruby is slightly (and only slightly) better than
Python. It has many strengths over Python -- especially with its
metaprogramming capabilities -- but it also has several weaknesses
(beginning with performance and library availability). I would not be
upset if I had to program in Python professionally, but I would also not
be upset if I had to program in Ruby professionally either.

What makes Ruby a winner over Python for me is its community. It is
(mostly) friendly and (mostly) welcoming of new people and thoughts.
And while the constantly-moving target of the language can be a bit
frustrating, it's also a bit exhilarating to be there as the language
develops and matures. To be there while the community crystallizes and
matures. So for me the big thing that made me switch to Ruby was the
respective set of communities.

--=20
Michael T. Richter <[email protected]> (GoogleTalk:
(e-mail address removed))
Experts in advanced countries underestimate by a factor of two to four
the ability of people in underdeveloped countries to do anything
technical. (Charles P Issawi)

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<BODY>
On Tue, 2007-25-09 at 12:53 +0900, 7stud -- wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE>
<PRE>
<FONT COLOR=3D"#000000">Thanks for the well written post. Can you give a l=
ittle more insight </FONT>
<FONT COLOR=3D"#000000">into how you came to be using ruby as your programm=
ing language of </FONT>
<FONT COLOR=3D"#000000">choice instead of any of the other languages you me=
ntioned. I know why </FONT>
<FONT COLOR=3D"#000000">you might choose ruby over C/C++ or Java, but what =
lead you to choose </FONT>
<FONT COLOR=3D"#000000">ruby over python, which as far as I can tell is rub=
y's closest neighbor.</FONT>
</PRE>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR>
I'm not Bill, but I can give you a data point related to the one you're loo=
king for.&nbsp; I'm a former Python user and (local) evangelist.&nbsp; Way =
back when Ruby was still 0.9.something, I was using Python in my work and a=
t home all the time.&nbsp; I was doing the former, in fact, despite a compa=
ny directive saying that we should only be using C++, VB (since I was writi=
ng a VB toolkit at the time) and tcl, of all things.&nbsp; (Java was being =
added at the end of my tenure in that position.)&nbsp; I did this because I=
found Python easy to program in and especially well-suited to the kinds of=
code generation I had to do to fill out all the crappy boilerplate that do=
minates C/C++/Java code.&nbsp; It was also well-suited to driving tests.<BR=<BR>
I dropped Python because of its community.<BR>
<BR>
When I started with Python -- back about v1.2 or 1.3 -- the Python communit=
y was mostly friendly and helpful.&nbsp; It was a joy to be in.&nbsp; It ch=
anged and it changed dramatically over time.&nbsp; Now I see a coterie of p=
eople who basically sneer at anybody who isn't in their circle and who are =
utterly intolerant of viewpoints not their own.&nbsp; And, as you can often=
see in Ruby circles, they have an alarming tendency to go to other communi=
ties to do their sneering.&nbsp; The friendly, warm, vibrant community surr=
ounding a decent language -- and I still do think Python is a good language=
; I'm probably unusual among Rubistas for this -- vanished over the years a=
nd was replaced by people I really didn't want anything to do with.<BR>
<BR>
As a language I think Ruby is slightly (and only slightly) better than Pyth=
on.&nbsp; It has many strengths over Python -- especially with its metaprog=
ramming capabilities -- but it also has several weaknesses (beginning with =
performance and library availability).&nbsp; I would not be upset if I had =
to program in Python professionally, but I would also not be upset if I had=
to program in Ruby professionally either.<BR>
<BR>
What makes Ruby a winner over Python for me is its community.&nbsp; It is (=
mostly) friendly and (mostly) welcoming of new people and thoughts.&nbsp; A=
nd while the constantly-moving target of the language can be a bit frustrat=
ing, it's also a bit exhilarating to be there as the language develops and =
matures.&nbsp; To be there while the community crystallizes and matures.&nb=
sp; So for me the big thing that made me switch to Ruby was the respective =
set of communities.<BR>
<BR>
<TABLE CELLSPACING=3D"0" CELLPADDING=3D"0" WIDTH=3D"100%">
<TR>
<TD>
-- <BR>
<B>Michael T. Richter</B> &lt;<A HREF=3D"mailto:[email protected]">ttmri=
(e-mail address removed)</A>&gt; (<B>GoogleTalk:</B> (e-mail address removed))<BR>
<I>Experts in advanced countries underestimate by a factor of two to four t=
he ability of people in underdeveloped countries to do anything technical. =
(Charles P Issawi)</I>
</TD>
</TR>
</TABLE>
</BODY>
</HTML>

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[M. Edward (Ed) Borasky]

Hi,

Thanks for the well written post. Can you give a little more insight
into how you came to be using ruby as your programming language of
choice instead of any of the other languages you mentioned. I know why
you might choose ruby over C/C++ or Java, but what lead you to choose
ruby over python, which as far as I can tell is ruby's closest neighbor.

Thanks.

And why did you stop using Forth? Is there *really* a way to break the
addiction?

 

[7stud --]

I dropped Python because of its community.

When I started with Python -- back about v1.2 or 1.3 -- the Python
community was mostly friendly and helpful. It was a joy to be in. It
changed and it changed dramatically over time. Now I see a coterie of
people who basically sneer at anybody who isn't in their circle and who
are utterly intolerant of viewpoints not their own. And, as you can
often see in Ruby circles, they have an alarming tendency to go to other
communities to do their sneering. The friendly, warm, vibrant community
surrounding a decent language -- and I still do think Python is a good
language; I'm probably unusual among Rubistas for this -- vanished over
the years and was replaced by people I really didn't want anything to do
with.

Yes, I see that too. Despicable behavior. Thanks for the insights.

 

[Michael T. Richter]

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And why did you stop using Forth? Is there *really* a way to break the
addiction?

I know why *I* stopped using Forth. Forth was great when I was reading
my own code. It... was less great (trying to stay polite here) when I
had to read other people's code.

--=20
Michael T. Richter <[email protected]> (GoogleTalk:
(e-mail address removed))
Experts in advanced countries underestimate by a factor of two to four
the ability of people in underdeveloped countries to do anything
technical. (Charles P Issawi)

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<META NAME=3D"GENERATOR" CONTENT=3D"GtkHTML/3.12.1">
</HEAD>
<BODY>
On Tue, 2007-25-09 at 14:24 +0900, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE>
<PRE>
<FONT COLOR=3D"#000000">And why did you stop using Forth? Is there *really*=
a way to break the</FONT>
<FONT COLOR=3D"#000000">addiction? </FONT>
</PRE>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR>
I know why *I* stopped using Forth.&nbsp; Forth was great when I was readin=
g my own code.&nbsp; It... was less great (trying to stay polite here) when=
I had to read other people's code.&nbsp; <IMG SRC=3D"cid:1190700363.25153.=
9.camel@isolde" ALIGN=3D"middle" ALT=3D"" BORDER=3D"0"><BR>
<BR>
<TABLE CELLSPACING=3D"0" CELLPADDING=3D"0" WIDTH=3D"100%">
<TR>
<TD>
-- <BR>
<B>Michael T. Richter</B> &lt;<A HREF=3D"mailto:[email protected]">ttmri=
(e-mail address removed)</A>&gt; (<B>GoogleTalk:</B> (e-mail address removed))<BR>
<I>Experts in advanced countries underestimate by a factor of two to four t=
he ability of people in underdeveloped countries to do anything technical. =
(Charles P Issawi)</I>
</TD>
</TR>
</TABLE>
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[Chad Perrin]

surrounding a decent language -- and I still do think Python is a good
language; I'm probably unusual among Rubistas for this -- vanished over

I don't know about that. I've seen a lot of indications, during my
on-again/off-again subscription to ruby-talk over the last few years,
that many of the members of this community have a fair bit of respect for
Python the language. I personally find Python eye-stabbingly hard on my
aesthetic sense and programming preferences, but even I think Python is a
good language. It's just not a good language for *me*, and I suspect
that's what many Rubyists here think as well (though maybe a little less
vehemently than me).

 

[Alexey Verkhovsky]

I'm probably unusual among Rubistas for [not hating Python]

No you aren't. Not at all.