Tkinter: The good, the bad, and the ugly!

[Grant Edwards]

From: "Adam Skutt" <[email protected]>


Not true. WxPython uses wxWIDGETS which uses the default OS widgets

There's no such thing as "default OS widgets" on Linux/Unix/BSD/etc.

which usually offer the accessibility features. (At least under
Windows, but most users that need accessibility use Windows anyway).
[...]

WxPython is not perfect but most of the objects it offers are
accessible so this is not true. Only Tk and GTK are bad.

On all of my computers, wxPython uses Gtk. There are other choices
for wxWidget backends on Linux, but Gtk is by far the most common.
IOW, if Gtk is bad, then wxPython is bad.

 

[patty]

Yea but look at all your gaining. I would rather sacrifice a few megs
for the rich functionality and scalability any day.



UNIX? are you kidding? Even if these dependancies are needed the
"UNIX" folks are damn capable of finding and installing them with
great ease. Besides most ship with this out the box already! We are
not talking about the lemmings who use windows or even the weekend
linuxers here. If they are using UNIX then there is no need for "hand
holding".


Thats quite an exaggeration Adam.


Wx is just as portable as Tk

Now I think I understand a little better where you all are coming from --
I am a Unix person and I guess I expected to have to learn GUI's using
whatever is provided for me by default. Which isn't a bad thing. And if
I had to add additional software - and learn that - so be it. I am using
a Windows XP system and a Windows 7 system presently. Some day I would
like to switch out the Windows XP for Unix.

Thanks for the link to the Python page about the various packages, that
was enlightening.

Who or what group is actually in charge of what libraries (and programming
commands/methods such as the Python 3.x rewrite of 'print') goes into
Python? Is this huge discussion really a few feature requests for
additional libraries to be included for Windows programming? And aren't
some of these libraries developed by 3rd parties? And how is that handled
by the people in charge? Do they have to pay to license it or is this all
freely contributed software?

Patty

 

[geremy condra]

Now I think I understand a little better where you all are coming from --
I am a Unix person and I guess I expected to have to learn GUI's using
whatever is provided for me by default. Which isn't a bad thing.   And if
I had to add additional software - and learn that - so be it.  I am using
a Windows XP system and a Windows 7 system presently.  Some day I would
like to switch out the Windows XP for Unix.

Just dual boot, it isn't hard.

Thanks for the link to the Python page about the various packages, that
was enlightening.

Who or what group is actually in charge of what libraries (and programming
commands/methods such as the Python 3.x rewrite of 'print') goes into
Python?

Python's developers. There isn't really any other formal structure beyond that.

 Is this huge discussion really a few feature requests for
additional libraries to be included for Windows programming?

No, it's about other operating systems too, but what it comes down to
is that rantingrick has been on the warpath about tkinter for a while,
and hasn't proposed a particularly viable alternative. The sad thing
is that if he weren't so unhinged his proposal would probably fare
much better- I know I

 And aren't some of these libraries developed by 3rd parties?

Any library to replace tkinter would come from a third party, yes.

And how is that handled by the people in charge?

Again, there aren't really people 'in charge' on this. Whoever wanted
to push for this would have to do the legwork to make sure that the
library on offer was good enough to win a lot of support from the
community, was cross-platform, etc. They'd also have to convince
someone with commit privs that it was a great idea, convince the rest
of the dev group not to oppose it. After that would come the difficult
task of slowly phasing tkinter out, which would involve substantial
long-term commitment.

In other words, whoever wants to push for this is in for a hard,
multi-year slog. Nobody has stepped up to the plate to do any real
work towards that goal.

Do they have to pay to license it or is this all freely contributed software?

I can't imagine non-free code making it in.

Geremy Condra

 

[geremy condra]

No, it's about other operating systems too, but what it comes down to
is that rantingrick has been on the warpath about tkinter for a while,
and hasn't proposed a particularly viable alternative. The sad thing
is that if he weren't so unhinged his proposal would probably fare
much better- I know I

Sorry for the truncation. I was going to say that I know I would be
more supportive of it if he was building support for something instead
of tearing everything else down.

Geremy Condra

 

[Octavian Rasnita]

wxWidgets' support is completely inadequate for a true cross-platform
system, the developers are aware of this and acknowledge this and
believe a rewrite is necessary. Thus, it is currently really in no
better state than Tk.

It depends on what you mean by a "true cross-platform" system. wxWIDGETS run on more platforms, so it is cross-platform and it is also accessible for more categories of users.
Other systems are bad not only because they are not accessible for everyone, but also because they don't use the underlying GUI of the operating system they are used on, so they have a different look and feel. Even the accessibility, the possibility of accessing the GUIs with a keyboard also means look and feel.

Java GUIS are accessible. Maybe that's the reason.

No, the reason is as I stated, no more, no less. Accessibility
doesn't enter into most designs.

Which are those "most designs"? I've shown you that the most used GUIS are made to be accessible out of the box and all the GUIS should offer these facilities.

Octavian

 

[Emile van Sebille]

On 1/19/2011 11:37 AM geremy condra said...

Any library to replace tkinter would come from a third party, yes.


Again, there aren't really people 'in charge' on this. Whoever wanted
to push for this would have to do the legwork to make sure that the
library on offer was good enough to win a lot of support from the
community, was cross-platform, etc. They'd also have to convince
someone with commit privs that it was a great idea, convince the rest
of the dev group not to oppose it.

.... and that they'd forevermore support it, which is likely to be as
much of an obstacle. I suspect that's why even established libraries
like PIL, numpy, mxDateTime or win32all never made it into the standard
library.

Emile

 

[Octavian Rasnita]

This is the most false thing I ever heard and the most dangerous.

O RLY? http://www.wxwidgets.org/docs/technote/wxaccesstips.htm sure
looks like there's a whole host of things that I, the application
programmer, must do manually to enable an accessible application[1].
I can't just plop down controls and have an accessible application.


Well, to be sincere, I thought that you don't care, or even worse, and I am sorry because I was thinking that way, but I see that you don't understand what accessible means.

A GUI can be more or less accessible and the most accessible is the standard Win32 GUI / MFC. wxWIDGETS is not perfect because it has some controls that steal the focus and don't allow moving it to another control by using the tab key, or it has the HTML widget which is not accessible at all, but the most used controls like the buttons, list boxes, list views, text fields, radio buttons, check boxes... are perfectly accessible out of the box.

Those rules for creating an accessible application are obvious; like the fact that a button need to contain a text label and not only an image, or that an image needs to have a tooltip defined, or that a radio button needs to have a label attached to it, but all those things can be solved by the programmer and usually the programmer create those text labels.

If the programmer doesn't create those labels, the application won't be totally inaccessible. The users will tab around and they will hear that there is a button without name, or a radio button without name, but the user can use the application and by trial and error he/she might learn that the second button does this and the third button does that.

But the interfaces created with Tk, Gtk and QT are completely inaccessible.
This means that no object confirms that it got the focus, no text field returns the text it contains, and so on. Those applications are like an opened notepad.exe program with an empty file in which you try to tab around to move the cursor, but of course, nothing happends and you can't find any button, or list box in it.
In the Tk applications only the menus are accessible but that's the entire accessibility it offers.

The programmer doesn't even know that the application will also offer accessibility features.

No, accessibility requires consideration in the design and
implementation of the GUIs, in all of those toolkits. It is not
transparent, nor can it be transparent. It requires both
consideration when laying out the widgets, but also ensuring that the
widgets have specific properties set. How many applications have you
ever used that had focus order bugs? That's an accessibility issue
that requires programmer intervention to get right.

Adam


Yes, those things should be followed for creating a better app, but what I wanted to say is that no matter if you do those things or not in a Tk, Gtk or QT GUI, they will be useless, because the screen readers can't understand those GUIS even they have text labels, and even if you will see a focus rectangle around buttons. They don't report that those objects have the focus so the screen readers won't speak anything.

Octavian

 

[Octavian Rasnita]

From: "Adam Skutt" <[email protected]>


Not true. WxPython uses wxWIDGETS which uses the default OS widgets

There's no such thing as "default OS widgets" on Linux/Unix/BSD/etc.

which usually offer the accessibility features. (At least under
Windows, but most users that need accessibility use Windows anyway).
[...]

WxPython is not perfect but most of the objects it offers are
accessible so this is not true. Only Tk and GTK are bad.

On all of my computers, wxPython uses Gtk. There are other choices
for wxWidget backends on Linux, but Gtk is by far the most common.
IOW, if Gtk is bad, then wxPython is bad.

Not true. Gtk is accessible under Linux but it is not accessible under Windows.

I am not talking from the perspective of what the GUI creators say, but about the reality.

Adobe and Microsoft say that Flash and Silverlight are accessible because they offer accessibility features, but this is practically absolutely unimportant for the users, because the current screen readers don't offer support for them, so they are hard accessible respectively not accessible.

I don't know why Gtk is not accessible under Windows but it can be accessed fine under Linux with Orca screen reader.

Either it doesn't offer the accessibility features in its Windows version, or it offers the same thing under Windows but the screen readers that work under Windows don't offer support for it.
I'd say that Silverlight is pretty new and it is expected that it is not accessible, but Gtk, QT and Tk are old enough but there is no support for them yet.
Under Windows there are open source screen readers also, one of them beeing NVDA, which is made in Python, so we are not talking only about commercial programs that might not offer this support because of a commercial interest, however those screen readers don't offer support for those GUIS.

Orca, the most used screen reader used under Linux is also made in Python, but under Linux it can access fine the Gtk interface.

So I don't know why, but maybe it is hard for the screen reader manufacturers to make them support absolutely all the possible interfaces so they choose to support only the most used GUI under each OS.

So the better term would be "the most used GUI type" and not "the default GUI type" for each OS.

But I as I said, all these things can be tested using that screen reader I told you about.
If you use Windows, and you have an application which is made using QT, Tk or Gtk, you can download JAWS from www.freedomscientific.com, install it and try to see what you hear when you use that application and you will see that you won't hear anything, while in an application that uses wxWIDGETS or standard Win32 GUI or MFC, the most used controls are perfectly accessible.

Octavian

 

[rantingrick]

Who or what group is actually in charge of what libraries (and programming
commands/methods such as the Python 3.x rewrite of 'print') goes into
Python?  

Well it comes down to "Guido, some Guys, and a mailing list". see this
link fro more detail...

http://www.python.org/dev/intro/

Is this huge discussion really a few feature requests for
additional libraries to be included for Windows programming?

No, this HUGE discussion is primarily about the worth of Tkinter as
our chosen GUI module and whether or not we should replace it. It also
contains (and rightly so!) undertones as to the lost vision within
this community as a whole. Not to mention the missing cohesiveness to
move forward in the correct direction.

 And aren't
some of these libraries developed by 3rd parties?  

Yes Python has many 3rd party packages available. You should
familiarize yourself with both the current stdlib AND the packages
list. Both are here...

http://pypi.python.org/pypi?:action=index
http://docs.python.org/release/3.0.1/modindex.html

And how is that handled
by the people in charge?  Do they have to pay to license it or is this all
freely contributed software?

This statement needs clarification because i cannot decide if you are
asking from a Python stdlib perspective or a 3rd party package
perspective. In any event Python and the stdlib should be all free and
open software. And shame on anyone who releases closed source
software!

Shame on you greedies! Shame on you!

 

[Grant Edwards]

Not true.

I think you're playing a bit fast and loose with your accusations.

Which of my statements was "not true"?

1) On all of my computers wxPython uses Gtk.

2) There are other backend choices on Linux besides Gtk.

3) Gtk is by far the most common wxWidgets backend on Linux/Unix.

4) If Gtk is bad then wxPython is bad.

Note that 4) follows logically from 3), so to say that 4) is "not
true" you have to show that 3) is "not true".

 

[Terry Reedy]

This project is good, a step ahead, but in order to be really useful it should be the one provided by the default Python package.
And of course, it should also offer support for Windows, since most of the computer users use Windows, especially those who need accessibility features.

Octavian

Please consider adding an 'Accessibility' page to the Python wiki with
your info and the above for those interested.

 

[rantingrick]

On 2011-01-19, Octavian Rasnita <[email protected]> wrote:

Which of my statements was "not true"?

 1) On all of my computers wxPython uses Gtk.

 2) There are other backend choices on Linux besides Gtk.

 3) Gtk is by far the most common wxWidgets backend on Linux/Unix.

 4) If Gtk is bad then wxPython is bad.

Note that 4) follows logically from 3), so to say that 4) is "not
true" you have to show that 3) is "not true".

All of these folks that keep blabbing about how they may need "this"
dependency or "that" dependency on Linux/Unix either need to shut up
or convert to a windows box with a nice installer exe that will hold
your wiener while you pee. Really, you're only going to fool the
lemmings with such BS arguments! Stop whining, you choose to use an
advanced OS and stop blaming the rest of the world because of your
choices!

 

[Adam Skutt]

Those rules for creating an accessible application are obvious; like the fact that a button need to contain a text label and not only an image, or that an image needs to have a tooltip defined, or that a radio button needs to have a label attached to it, but all those things can be solved by the programmer and usually the programmer create those text labels.

The fact that /every/ toolkit provides accessibility guidelines over
and above whatever other UI guidelines they provide tells me that
creating an accessible application is hardly obvious. Plus, if it
were really that simple, the accessibility situation wouldn't be so
poor.

Yes, those things should be followed for creating a better app, but what I wanted to say is that no matter if you do those things or not in a Tk, Gtk or QT GUI, they will be useless, because the screen readers can't understand those GUIS even they have text labels, and even if you will see a focus rectangle around buttons. They don't report that those objects have the focus so the screen readers won't speak anything.

Your "something is better than nothing" argument isn't particularly
compelling to me personally as a justification for ripping out
TkInter. And Qt is the only toolkit with some level of functioning
accessibility support on all three major platforms, assuming the
library and software are built correctly, so again, your argument is
really for Qt, not for wxWidgets.

Adam

 

[rantingrick]

Look, the folks are c.l.py are far too touchy and they really need to
lighten up. Really! The fact that my speech style and delivery does
not fit some "cookie cutter" pre-directive is just BS. The Python
community is NOT a homogeneous block you know, and it should not be!
People have said to me in the past..."""Well you could participate at
python-dev or python-ideas or the tracker but NOT as ranting rick, you
need to use a better name"""... What? What does it matter what my name
is anyway. This is just being pedantic!!

Sorry for the truncation. I was going to say that I know I would be
more supportive of it if he was building support for something instead
of tearing everything else down.

I am not "tearing down" anything, however that was a nice try Geremy
*wink*. The only thing that is being "torn down" is the solid wall of
rabid resistance that has been slowly built by this community over
many years. We have become too centralized and many folks are being
left out of the community decision process. You (and others) act like
my only concern is to destroy what has been built (Tkinter) and that
is not the case! But like old governments, YOU (the python elite!)
have lost all vision for the future. And you've also lost all
connection with the people. I am desperately trying to to snap you out
of this psychosis before it is too late! Tkinter will be the downfall
of Python if we cannot muster the resolve to replace it with something
that is current (or more current) technology. Stop fearing change and
re-ignite the vision that GvR once had.

 

[rantingrick]

The fact that /every/ toolkit provides accessibility guidelines over
and above whatever other UI guidelines they provide tells me that
creating an accessible application is hardly obvious.  Plus, if it
were really that simple, the accessibility situation wouldn't be so
poor.


Your "something is better than nothing" argument isn't particularly
compelling to me personally as a justification for ripping out
TkInter.  And Qt is the only toolkit with some level of functioning
accessibility support on all three major platforms, assuming the
library and software are built correctly, so again, your argument is
really for Qt, not for wxWidgets.

Adam

Adam, please use the following style when posting to this
group...Thanks.

Those rules for creating an accessible application are obvious; like
the fact that a button need to contain a text label and not only an
image, or that an image needs to have a tooltip defined, or that a
radio button needs to have a label attached to it, but all those
things can be solved by the programmer and usually the programmer
create those text labels.

The fact that /every/ toolkit provides accessibility guidelines over
and above whatever other UI guidelines they provide tells me that
creating an accessible application is hardly obvious. Plus, if it
were really that simple, the accessibility situation wouldn't be so
poor.

Yes, those things should be followed for creating a better app, but
what I wanted to say is that no matter if you do those things or not
in a Tk, Gtk or QT GUI, they will be useless, because the screen
readers can't understand those GUIS even they have text labels, and
even if you will see a focus rectangle around buttons. They don't
report that those objects have the focus so the screen readers won't
speak anything.

Your "something is better than nothing" argument isn't particularly
compelling to me personally as a justification for ripping out
TkInter. And Qt is the only toolkit with some level of functioning
accessibility support on all three major platforms, assuming the
library and software are built correctly, so again, your argument is
really for Qt, not for wxWidgets.
Adam

 

[geremy condra]

Look, the folks are c.l.py are far too touchy and they really need to
lighten up. Really! The fact that my speech style and delivery does
not fit some "cookie cutter" pre-directive is just BS. The Python
community is NOT a homogeneous block you know, and it should not be!
People have said to me in the past..."""Well you could participate at
python-dev or python-ideas or the tracker but NOT as ranting rick, you
need to use a better name"""... What? What does it matter what my name
is anyway. This is just being pedantic!!

I'm not telling you to change your behavior. I'm telling you that the
way you're doing things isn't effective. You can take that advice or
not, just as I can decide to listen to you... or not.

I also wouldn't advise you to change your name again. I think you've
already landed on a couple of spam lists for that.

I am not "tearing down" anything, however that was a nice try Geremy
*wink*. The only thing that is being "torn down" is the solid wall of
rabid resistance that has been slowly built by this community over
many years.

I don't think this is the case, first because you aren't very good at
getting anybody to take you seriously and second because I don't think
that resistance on this issue is as mindless as you claim.

We have become too centralized and many folks are being
left out of the community decision process.

I disagree with the first half. The second I'm more prone to agree
with, although I don't have a lot of great ideas about how to solve
the problem. You seem to be full of ideas (most of which I think are
terrible) but very short on actually getting anything done. Until you
begin to remedy that I doubt very many people here will take you as
seriously as you seem to want.

Also, be careful with where you say 'we'- I certainly don't recognize
your authority to speak on behalf of the community, and I suspect that
an overwhelming majority of the community's other members feel the
same way.

You (and others) act like
my only concern is to destroy what has been built (Tkinter) and that
is not the case!

Seems like it from where I'm sitting. YMMV, but I think you would do
much better if you focused on the problem of building a system that
addressed the concerns others have raised rather than pretending they
aren't valid concerns.

But like old governments, YOU (the python elite!)
have lost all vision for the future.

Hey, cool, I'm a member of the elite now. You wouldn't happen to know
how to list that on a resume, would you?

And you've also lost all
connection with the people. I am desperately trying to to snap you out
of this psychosis before it is too late! Tkinter will be the downfall
of Python if we cannot muster the resolve to replace it with something
that is current (or more current) technology.

Citation needed.

Geremy Condra

 

[rantingrick]

I'm not telling you to change your behavior. I'm telling you that the
way you're doing things isn't effective. You can take that advice or
not, just as I can decide to listen to you... or not.

I also wouldn't advise you to change your name again. I think you've
already landed on a couple of spam lists for that.

Yes i know! The whole "name" issue was blown out of proportion. Look i
think i should explain how this whole name conundrum started. When i
first came to this list you can imagine that i was not prepared to
divulge every detail about my identity and personal life (as most
should not!). So i choose a cryptic and nonsensical name. Yes, i made
it up! And at the time i never had any inclination that i would want
to get so involved with this group. Well that was then and this is
now...

However, after i became "known" within the community many folks
started to debase any of my arguments simply on the fact that my name
was anonymous. So at that time i started using my real name "Rick
Johnson" and my nickname as "rantingrick". After this people then
accused my of "identity hopping". Even some of the same folks who
previously were complaining about my cryptic first name choice! Now
they were complain that i choose to use my REAL name. Ironic eh!

So what it boils down to is this... some people on this list just hate
me and trying to please them is a waste of time.

I don't think this is the case, first because you aren't very good at
getting anybody to take you seriously

How "self absorbed" must someone be to blame *ME* because *THEY*
cannot take *ME* seriously. Is this a joke Geremy? Sadly i know it to
be true however because you are not the only person who carries this
attitude.

and second because I don't think
that resistance on this issue is as mindless as you claim.

i have exposed the baseless, nonsensical, and argumentative stance
taken by some in an effort to sway public opinion with FUD and BS. So
i would say that arguing with baseless facts does constitute "rabid
resistance". What else could it be?

I disagree with the first half. The second I'm more prone to agree
with, although I don't have a lot of great ideas about how to solve
the problem.

Well maybe you are not a visionary, however i believe we still need
you in other areas.

You seem to be full of ideas (most of which I think are
terrible) but very short on actually getting anything done. Until you
begin to remedy that I doubt very many people here will take you as
seriously as you seem to want.

Look, every organization needs workers, visionaries, liaisons,
supervisors, etc. I seem to fit nicely into a Visionary role. Maybe
that bothers you? I don't know? But we all have our place Geremy. Do
you think any organization could survive simply with robotic workers
and no guidance? No, and why not? Because workers cannot see the big
picture. They are too focused (and rightly so) on some small detail
that encompasses their job duty. Only the supervisor/visionary has the
luxury of looking at the problem from a global perspective.

Think of Python-dev as a car. A car is a machine. A very complicated
machine that needs a driver to harness it's power and give it
direction and purpose. -- someone who can see "beyond" the horizon.
Someone who can read a road map and then re-calculate a path if road
construction blocks the current one. Without the car the driver is
nothing, and without the driver the car is nothing. But together, they
are a force to reckoned with. Well, unless the driver is Asian -- then
all bets are off!

Also, be careful with where you say 'we'- I certainly don't recognize
your authority to speak on behalf of the community, and I suspect that
an overwhelming majority of the community's other members feel the
same way.

You see! This is the resistance i am talking about. You (and others)
don't want to accept me as part of the community. If you did accept
me, then my speaking collectively (we) would not be troubling to you.
However i do not blame you directly for this prejudice. I think it is
more of a sub-conscience undercurrent that pervades this community as
a whole. A fear of outsiders. A xenophobia if you will. We need to
change this now!

 

[Michael Torrie]

I don't see the original bizarre rants for some reason (spam filter
likely), but I have to say this is the most ridiculous thing I've heard
in some time. Tkinter the downfall of python? Wow. All of the python
programmers I know (we use python every day at work) would say, "what
is tkinter?" It's just not relevant to any of them that I know. Google
probably uses as much Python as anyone, and their programmers would
probably agree. Perhaps that's an argument to remove tkinter entirely,
but not really a good one.

In the meantime they happily crank out code with Django, or PyQt, or
PyGTK, or even Tkinter--whatever tool is appropriate for the job.

Citation needed.

Perhaps a reference to Xah Lee's web site would suffice.

 

[geremy condra]

How "self absorbed" must someone be to blame *ME* because *THEY*
cannot take *ME* seriously. Is this a joke Geremy? Sadly i know it to
be true however because you are not the only person who carries this
attitude.

Welcome to real life. You convince people that you're right or they
don't do what you say.

i have exposed the baseless, nonsensical, and argumentative stance
taken by some in an effort to sway public opinion with FUD and BS. So
i would say that arguing with baseless facts does constitute "rabid
resistance". What else could it be?

Reasoned resistance seen through the eyes of someone whose judgement
should not be trusted.

Well maybe you are not a visionary, however i believe we still need
you in other areas.

Oh, do tell.

Look, every organization needs workers, visionaries, liaisons,
supervisors, etc. I seem to fit nicely into a Visionary role. Maybe
that bothers you? I don't know? But we all have our place Geremy. Do
you think any organization could survive simply with robotic workers
and no guidance? No, and why not? Because workers cannot see the big
picture. They are too focused (and rightly so) on some small detail
that encompasses their job duty. Only the supervisor/visionary has the
luxury of looking at the problem from a global perspective.

Think of Python-dev as a car. A car is a machine. A very complicated
machine that needs a driver to harness it's power and give it
direction and purpose. -- someone who can see "beyond" the horizon.
Someone who can read a road map and then re-calculate a path if road
construction blocks the current one. Without the car the driver is
nothing, and without the driver the car is nothing.

Python already has leadership. It does not have a command structure.
There is a difference, one that you would need to understand to be an
effective leader.

But together, they
are a force to reckoned with. Well, unless the driver is Asian -- then
all bets are off!

Hahaha, racism was so funny in the 1700's! Now it's just asinine.

You see! This is the resistance i am talking about. You (and others)
don't want to accept me as part of the community. If you did accept
me, then my speaking collectively (we) would not be troubling to you.
However i do not blame you directly for this prejudice. I think it is
more of a sub-conscience undercurrent that pervades this community as
a whole. A fear of outsiders. A xenophobia if you will. We need to
change this now!

There's a difference between 'we should' and 'we must'. One implies
that you are trying to convince, which is what communities of equals
do. The other implies that you are trying to command, which is what
idiots think they can do to communities of equals.

Geremy Condra

 

[rantingrick]

Welcome to real life. You convince people that you're right or they
don't do what you say.

Again you "think" (or miscomprehended rather!) that "somehow" i am
here to "make" you do anything. On the contrary Geremy, i am here to
"guide", to "foster", and to "build" a cohesive community of python
programmers united in a common goal WITH a clear vision for the
future.

Reasoned resistance seen through the eyes of someone whose judgement
should not be trusted.

Why is my judgment in question here. As you claim i have no authority
within in this group, so why does my judgment scare you?

Hahaha, racism was so funny in the 1700's! Now it's just asinine.

Actually the joke is on you Geremy. Obviously you cannot tell the
difference between "stereotypes" and "racism". And there is a HUGE,
HUGE, difference! Asians are stereotypical bad drivers, just as white
guys are stereotypical bad dancers, just as black guys have
stereotypical huge cucumbers. The fact that you cannot distinguish
racism from stereotype exposes three things about your personality
(1.) You have no sense of humor and cannot laugh at yourself, (2.)
You'll jump on any bandwagon just to discredit the person you are
debating with outlandish and controversial accusations, and (3.) you
are extremely shallow. This shows lack of intelligence, humor, and
worse of all humility.

Anyhow, do you have any actual arguments or ideas on keeping Tkinter
or replacing Tkinter. Remember that is why we are here Geremy.