vertically split text?

Discussion in 'HTML' started by Mark Parnell, Mar 3, 2005.

  1. Mark Parnell

    Mark Parnell Guest

    Previously in alt.html, Day Brown <> said:

    > Can you make html look so it looks like the facing pages of an open
    > book? that is, the text on the bottom of the left hand (page, column)
    > side continues at the top of the right hand, 'facing page'?


    Only by splitting the text into 2 sections yourself, and putting each in
    a separate <div> (for example). CSS3 allows columns like that but it is
    only a draft, and it will be several years before it is widely supported
    enough to consider using on a public site.

    --
    Mark Parnell
    http://www.clarkecomputers.com.au
    Mark Parnell, Mar 3, 2005
    #1
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  2. Mark Parnell

    Day Brown Guest

    Can you make html look so it looks like the facing pages of an open
    book? that is, the text on the bottom of the left hand (page, column)
    side continues at the top of the right hand, 'facing page'?
    Day Brown, Mar 3, 2005
    #2
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  3. Mark Parnell

    mbstevens Guest

    Mark Parnell wrote:

    > Previously in alt.html, Day Brown <> said:
    >
    >> Can you make html look so it looks like the facing pages of an open
    >> book? that is, the text on the bottom of the left hand (page, column)
    >> side continues at the top of the right hand, 'facing page'?

    >
    > Only by splitting the text into 2 sections yourself, and putting each in
    > a separate <div> (for example). CSS3 allows columns like that but it is
    > only a draft, and it will be several years before it is widely supported
    > enough to consider using on a public site.
    >


    The question reminded me of this...
    http://www.alistapart.com/d/imagemap/example2.html
    It does some interesting things with image maps, but it leaves out any
    actual text content on the pages -- probably for the reasons you have given
    us. I don't know any way to do it, either.
    --
    mbstevens
    mbstevens, Mar 3, 2005
    #3
  4. Mark Parnell

    Richard Guest

    On Wed, 02 Mar 2005 23:04:57 -0600 Day Brown wrote:

    > Can you make html look so it looks like the facing pages of an open
    > book? that is, the text on the bottom of the left hand (page, column)
    > side continues at the top of the right hand, 'facing page'?


    Use a pair of table columns.
    I've seen a lot of news sites do this.
    Some use tables, others use divisions.
    Go fancy with css and give the center a "crease" look.
    Richard, Mar 3, 2005
    #4
  5. On Wed, 02 Mar 2005 23:04:57 -0600, Day Brown wrote:

    > Can you make html look so it looks like the facing pages of an open
    > book? that is, the text on the bottom of the left hand (page, column)
    > side continues at the top of the right hand, 'facing page'?


    There are a number of ways you can do it, but be warned, if your 'pages'
    are taller than the viewing window, we may have to scroll down the first
    column, then scroll back up and again down the second column. Personally,
    CSS is my prefered way to control the layout.

    Carolyn
    Carolyn Marenger, Mar 3, 2005
    #5
  6. Mark Parnell

    Richard Guest

    On Thu, 03 Mar 2005 06:56:04 -0500 Carolyn Marenger wrote:

    > On Wed, 02 Mar 2005 23:04:57 -0600, Day Brown wrote:
    >
    >> Can you make html look so it looks like the facing pages of an open
    >> book? that is, the text on the bottom of the left hand (page, column)
    >> side continues at the top of the right hand, 'facing page'?

    >
    > There are a number of ways you can do it, but be warned, if your 'pages'
    > are taller than the viewing window, we may have to scroll down the first
    > column, then scroll back up and again down the second column. Personally,
    > CSS is my prefered way to control the layout.
    >
    > Carolyn



    OH MY GAWD!
    This site has a damn scroll bar. I'm outa here.
    Why the hell do we have damn scroll bars at all then?
    Is it our fault Webtv doesn't use horizontal scroll bars?

    Show me where it is written in any RFC that thou shalt not use horizontal
    scroll bars.
    Richard, Mar 4, 2005
    #6
  7. On Thu, 03 Mar 2005 19:36:29 -0600, Richard wrote:

    > On Thu, 03 Mar 2005 06:56:04 -0500 Carolyn Marenger wrote:
    >
    >> On Wed, 02 Mar 2005 23:04:57 -0600, Day Brown wrote:
    >>
    >>> Can you make html look so it looks like the facing pages of an open
    >>> book? that is, the text on the bottom of the left hand (page, column)
    >>> side continues at the top of the right hand, 'facing page'?

    >>
    >> There are a number of ways you can do it, but be warned, if your 'pages'
    >> are taller than the viewing window, we may have to scroll down the first
    >> column, then scroll back up and again down the second column. Personally,
    >> CSS is my prefered way to control the layout.
    >>
    >> Carolyn

    >
    >
    > OH MY GAWD!
    > This site has a damn scroll bar. I'm outa here.
    > Why the hell do we have damn scroll bars at all then?
    > Is it our fault Webtv doesn't use horizontal scroll bars?
    >
    > Show me where it is written in any RFC that thou shalt not use horizontal
    > scroll bars.


    I don't think that is written anywhere. For my self, I like to make it as
    easy as possible for anyone to view my websites. If I want them to use my
    service or buy my product, I won't make them work at it to do so.

    If I had a retail outlet, I would do what I could to make it easy for the
    clients to find what they are looking for, and then procede to the cash
    register. Same goes for anything else I want someone to do. I try to
    make it as easy as possible for them to do it. I think that they are more
    likely to do it, if they don't have to go over hurdles and obstructions.

    For that reason, I try to develop fairly compatible websites, that
    minimize the work that someone has to do to view the content. In my mind,
    part of that is to try to limit scrolling to one direction. Vertical for
    text, horizontal when necessary.

    Carolyn
    Carolyn Marenger, Mar 4, 2005
    #7
  8. Mark Parnell

    Day Brown Guest

    Carolyn Marenger wrote:

    >>Show me where it is written in any RFC that thou shalt not use horizontal
    >>scroll bars.

    > I don't think that is written anywhere. For my self, I like to make it as
    > easy as possible for anyone to view my websites. If I want them to use my
    > service or buy my product, I won't make them work at it to do so.

    My sentiments exactly. You dont see scroll bars in books.
    > If I had a retail outlet, I would do what I could to make it easy for the
    > clients to find what they are looking for, and then procede to the cash
    > register. Same goes for anything else I want someone to do. I try to
    > make it as easy as possible for them to do it. I think that they are more
    > likely to do it, if they don't have to go over hurdles and obstructions.
    >
    > For that reason, I try to develop fairly compatible websites, that
    > minimize the work that someone has to do to view the content. In my mind,
    > part of that is to try to limit scrolling to one direction. Vertical for
    > text, horizontal when necessary.

    The only way I've found to do it, is to lay out the text and then get a
    screenshot, and post the .GIF (you dont need many colors with text, so
    gif copies are smaller than jpg.)

    But even then, when I do <img src=text.gif size=100%>, it dont actually
    *do* 100%, I guess because browser windows vary. I'd like it to 'pg dn'
    with the key press too, cause its easier than dragging a mouse.

    Now that so many have high speed access, it makes sense to me to just
    lay out the page *exactly* as I'd like it to appear, and make a graphic
    screen shot to show the surfer. Its gonzo easier than messing with CSS
    or html tables, frames, etc..
    Day Brown, Mar 5, 2005
    #8
  9. On Fri, 04 Mar 2005 18:14:04 -0600, Day Brown wrote:

    > Carolyn Marenger wrote:
    >
    >>>Show me where it is written in any RFC that thou shalt not use horizontal
    >>>scroll bars.

    >> I don't think that is written anywhere. For my self, I like to make it as
    >> easy as possible for anyone to view my websites. If I want them to use my
    >> service or buy my product, I won't make them work at it to do so.

    > My sentiments exactly. You dont see scroll bars in books.
    >> If I had a retail outlet, I would do what I could to make it easy for the
    >> clients to find what they are looking for, and then procede to the cash
    >> register. Same goes for anything else I want someone to do. I try to
    >> make it as easy as possible for them to do it. I think that they are more
    >> likely to do it, if they don't have to go over hurdles and obstructions.
    >>
    >> For that reason, I try to develop fairly compatible websites, that
    >> minimize the work that someone has to do to view the content. In my mind,
    >> part of that is to try to limit scrolling to one direction. Vertical for
    >> text, horizontal when necessary.

    > The only way I've found to do it, is to lay out the text and then get a
    > screenshot, and post the .GIF (you dont need many colors with text, so
    > gif copies are smaller than jpg.)
    >
    > But even then, when I do <img src=text.gif size=100%>, it dont actually
    > *do* 100%, I guess because browser windows vary. I'd like it to 'pg dn'
    > with the key press too, cause its easier than dragging a mouse.
    >
    > Now that so many have high speed access, it makes sense to me to just
    > lay out the page *exactly* as I'd like it to appear, and make a graphic
    > screen shot to show the surfer. Its gonzo easier than messing with CSS
    > or html tables, frames, etc..


    That is your choice. I don't choose that option for a number of reasons.
    Screen sizes still vary, windows sizes always vary according to user
    preferences, language conversion utilities don't convert the language in a
    graphic, and so forth. Being multi-lingual (sort of), I try to develop
    websites in English first, then with French and German translated pages in
    them. That ends up being alot of graphics, if I were to do it your way.

    Carolyn
    Carolyn Marenger, Mar 5, 2005
    #9
  10. Mark Parnell

    Fat Sam Guest

    Richard wrote:
    > On Thu, 03 Mar 2005 06:56:04 -0500 Carolyn Marenger wrote:
    >
    >
    >>On Wed, 02 Mar 2005 23:04:57 -0600, Day Brown wrote:
    >>
    >>
    >>>Can you make html look so it looks like the facing pages of an open
    >>>book? that is, the text on the bottom of the left hand (page, column)
    >>>side continues at the top of the right hand, 'facing page'?

    >>
    >>There are a number of ways you can do it, but be warned, if your 'pages'
    >>are taller than the viewing window, we may have to scroll down the first
    >>column, then scroll back up and again down the second column. Personally,
    >>CSS is my prefered way to control the layout.
    >>
    >>Carolyn

    >
    >
    >
    > OH MY GAWD!
    > This site has a damn scroll bar. I'm outa here.
    > Why the hell do we have damn scroll bars at all then?


    To allow web visitors to view websites that were designed by people with
    no consideration for others....

    > Show me where it is written in any RFC that thou shalt not use horizontal
    > scroll bars.


    It's a matter of aesthetics and ease-of-use.....Horisontal scrollbars
    look untidy and amateurish, and make it more difficult to view a page
    all-at-once....

    By your argument, magazine publishers shouldn't worry about fitting
    articles successfully into the confines of their magazine pages, as they
    can simply include a few loose leaf pages written in blue crayon....


    --
    www.fixaphoto.co.uk
    for photographic restorations
    Fat Sam, Mar 5, 2005
    #10
  11. Mark Parnell

    Toby Inkster Guest

    Richard wrote:

    > Show me where it is written in any RFC that thou shalt not use
    > horizontal scroll bars.


    To an extent I agree with you there.

    If horizontal scroll bars were so horrible, then all browser makers would
    implement something like Opera's "medium screen rendering" feature.

    There's nothing wrong with horizontal scroll bars.

    However, scrolling from side to side continuously to read a block of text
    sux0rs.

    --
    Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS
    Contact Me ~ http://tobyinkster.co.uk/contact
    Toby Inkster, Mar 5, 2005
    #11
  12. Mark Parnell

    Day Brown Guest

    Fat Sam wrote:
    > By your argument, magazine publishers shouldn't worry about fitting
    > articles successfully into the confines of their magazine pages, as they
    > can simply include a few loose leaf pages written in blue crayon....

    Agreed. There's a *reason* that magazines and newspapers use narrow
    columns; its the same reason that Chinese text has been printed in
    vertical rectangular blocks for 1000 years. It has to do with the
    muscles of the eye, and the registration errors which occur when
    you read long lines of html text scrolling across the screen, and
    begin reading the wrong line.

    http://anzi.hypertech.net shows some of my ongoing efforts to come
    up with solutions. No scrollbars.

    Part of the problem comes from the office environment html, .pdf,
    CSS, et al were designed to serve. Most of the effort went into
    how to create eye candy for promotional purposes rather than the
    logically consistent presentation of long text. Offices run on
    memos, not scholarly work. Load Edw. Gibbon's 'The Decline and
    Fall of The Roman Empire' into any GUI based text tool, and watch
    it bog down. Yet, everyone since the Founding Fathers found his
    work worthy of their attention...

    I daresay the failure of modern leaders to find time to take on
    Gibbon has much to do with the lack of quality.

    Agreed that multimedia has its place. But ANZI is an attempt to
    work out a mono-media format so the reader can be immersed in a
    lengthy work, like a real book. And like a real book present the
    content of facing pages. Classic authors routinely used paragraphs
    with 4 times the content of the above. Chinese blocks of text had
    a couple hundred symbol words. Maybe this is beyond the attention
    span of the modern mind, and maybe feedback will suggest what ANZI
    texts should look like.

    But the only way I could get text to flow, as it does in a real
    book, from the bottom of the left hand page to the top of the
    right, was write the assembly code to do it. Any other suggestions
    will be welcome.
    Day Brown, Mar 5, 2005
    #12
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