What about validating a web site?

Discussion in 'HTML' started by Paul, Jan 30, 2008.

  1. Paul

    Paul Guest

    I have tried to validate my web site, and it has a lot of errors.
    Now, the site works fine in IE and Mozilla Firefox without problems.
    I don't know if there are problems using other browsers.
    I am asking to you if it is really so important the correct validating when I work very well with my site as it is now.
    Recently I have improved it using your experience, thank you very much.
    As you can see, I am only a self-made-html-man :))
    Paul
    --
    http://www.tortebomboniere.com/bomboniere/favourcake01.html
     
    Paul, Jan 30, 2008
    #1
    1. Advertising

  2. Paul

    Jeff Guest

    Paul wrote:
    > I have tried to validate my web site, and it has a lot of errors.
    > Now, the site works fine in IE and Mozilla Firefox without problems.
    > I don't know if there are problems using other browsers.
    > I am asking to you if it is really so important the correct validating when I work very well with my site as it is now.
    > Recently I have improved it using your experience, thank you very much.
    > As you can see, I am only a self-made-html-man :))
    > Paul
    > --
    > http://www.tortebomboniere.com/bomboniere/favourcake01.html
    >


    Just forget the validation for the time being. You have serious
    useability issues.

    You can start with navigation. You should have clear consistent
    navigation on all pages. Make it nearly the same on every page and put
    it either at the top or along one side, never in the middle. You should
    never have pages that have no way of getting to the rest of your site
    without backing up.

    Then reduce the clutter, and finally emphasize what you want to sell.
    Why should a clock and figurines take up most of the initial visible
    space on a page about cakes?

    Start over. Christ, you're an Italian. Think elegant design. Don't
    think MySpace.

    Ciao,
    Jeff
    >
     
    Jeff, Jan 30, 2008
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. Paul

    Paul Guest

    "Jeff" <jeff@spam_me_not.com> ha scritto nel messaggio news:...
    > Paul wrote:
    >> I have tried to validate my web site


    > Start over. Christ, you're an Italian. Think elegant design. Don't think MySpace.
    >
    > Ciao,
    > Jeff



    Thank you very much, Jeff :))
    It is very useful reading about points of view different than mine, and you're wright.
    It helps me thinking and design the site in a different way.
    Ciao
    Paul
     
    Paul, Jan 30, 2008
    #3
  4. Paul

    dorayme Guest

    In article <47a094b8$0$26143$>,
    "Paul" <> wrote:

    > I have tried to validate my web site, and it has a lot of errors.
    > Now, the site works fine in IE and Mozilla Firefox without problems.
    > I don't know if there are problems using other browsers.
    > I am asking to you if it is really so important the correct validating when I
    > work very well with my site as it is now.
    > Recently I have improved it using your experience, thank you very much.
    > As you can see, I am only a self-made-html-man :))
    > Paul
    > --
    > http://www.tortebomboniere.com/bomboniere/favourcake01.html


    Its very nice Paul. But the engine can be tuned a bit. How about
    a doctype to begin with?


    (I know you are not Luigi, he was careful to have doctypes...)

    --
    dorayme
     
    dorayme, Jan 30, 2008
    #4
  5. Paul

    Paul Guest

    "dorayme" <> ha scritto nel messaggio
    news:...
    > In article <47a094b8$0$26143$>,
    > "Paul" <> wrote:
    >
    >
    > Its very nice Paul. But the engine can be tuned a bit. How about
    > a doctype to begin with?
    > (I know you are not Luigi, he was careful to have doctypes...)
    > dorayme


    Thank you dorayme, you are right, I must begin to study and apply doctype. I'll try to find the time, as I am very busy
    with my (main) work about favor cakes....
    Paul
     
    Paul, Jan 30, 2008
    #5
  6. Paul

    cwdjrxyz Guest

    On Jan 30, 9:16 am, "Paul" <> wrote:
    > I have tried to validate my web site, and it has a lot of errors.
    > Now, the site works fine in IE and Mozilla Firefox without problems.
    > I don't know if there are problems using other browsers.
    > I am asking to you if it is really so important the correct validating when I work very well with my site as it is now.
    > Recently I have improved it using your experience, thank you very much.
    > As you can see, I am only a self-made-html-man :))
    > Paul
    > --http://www.tortebomboniere.com/bomboniere/favourcake01.html


    Some of those cakes look good enough to eat. However the air express
    to the US likely would cost far more than the cake these days. I used
    to order a torte from Demel in Vienna for the holidays, but the air
    express increases have prompted me to not do so for the past few
    years.

    I will comment only on the validation problem. I have been called many
    things, but being a good artist is not one of them :). First there
    must be a Doctype and Character encoding. If you let the w3c validator
    default, the page can not be validated at all. However, even using
    likely docytypes and character encoding, there still are many
    validation errors. There are some huge commercial sites that are full
    of validation errors. Many of these look as if they were written by a
    committee(or html template program) over several years with portions
    of code written in html 3.2, various versions of html 4.01, and
    sometimes various versions of xhtml. Because many browsers will
    respond correctly to such a mixture, the page may appear satisfactory
    from a practical viewpoint. However one must check the page on most
    common browsers to see that it works properly, and when a browser
    updates there is no certainty that it still will work properly. Thus,
    if you do not bring the page up to some w3c standard (html 4.01 strict
    likely would be ideal for your page), you need to check it on browsers
    likely to be used for it. In addition to recent IE and Firefox, I
    would suggest Opera and Safari at a minimum. Opera is a free download.
    For those with a Windows OS, there is now Safari for Windows which
    also is a free download. Since Seamonkey uses a basic Firefox type
    browser with many extras, it likely will respond the same as Firefox,
    but it is also a free download if you wish to check.

    Even for someone who knows html well, your page could take quite a
    while to update to some W3C standard, because many changes would be
    required.
     
    cwdjrxyz, Jan 30, 2008
    #6
  7. Paul wrote:
    > "Jeff" <jeff@spam_me_not.com> ha scritto nel messaggio news:...
    >> Paul wrote:
    >>> I have tried to validate my web site

    >
    >> Start over. Christ, you're an Italian. Think elegant design. Don't think MySpace.


    >
    > Thank you very much, Jeff :))
    > It is very useful reading about points of view different than mine, and you're wright.
    > It helps me thinking and design the site in a different way.


    Jeff have a very good point. Since you are authoring your own site the
    cost to you is not per page. This is when less is more. Put less on each
    page and have more pages...put the focus on your product. Keep your
    navigation consistent.


    --
    Take care,

    Jonathan
    -------------------
    LITTLE WORKS STUDIO
    http://www.LittleWorksStudio.com
     
    Jonathan N. Little, Jan 30, 2008
    #7
  8. Jeff wrote:
    > Paul wrote:
    >> I have tried to validate my web site, and it has a lot of errors.
    >> Now, the site works fine in IE and Mozilla Firefox without problems.
    >> I don't know if there are problems using other browsers.
    >> I am asking to you if it is really so important the correct validating
    >> when I work very well with my site as it is now.
    >> Recently I have improved it using your experience, thank you very much.
    >> As you can see, I am only a self-made-html-man :))
    >> Paul
    >> --
    >> http://www.tortebomboniere.com/bomboniere/favourcake01.html

    >
    > Just forget the validation for the time being. You have serious
    > useability issues.
    >
    > You can start with navigation. You should have clear consistent
    > navigation on all pages. Make it nearly the same on every page and put
    > it either at the top or along one side, never in the middle. You should
    > never have pages that have no way of getting to the rest of your site
    > without backing up.
    >
    > Then reduce the clutter, and finally emphasize what you want to sell.
    > Why should a clock and figurines take up most of the initial visible
    > space on a page about cakes?


    I was wondering about the clock. What's the point?

    The OP takes up an awful lot of space giving us *four times* the same
    litany of occasions for which they bake cakes, and in one instance
    breaking the list up every couple of items with another chorus of "Favor
    cakes and Bonbonniere for". And that's before getting to the links for
    the individual styles of favor cake.

    Don't get me wrong, OP. My mouth is watering. But you could cut out at
    least one-third of your page, and maybe a half, and accomplish
    everything you need to.

    > Start over. Christ, you're an Italian. Think elegant design. Don't
    > think MySpace.


    Harsh!
     
    Harlan Messinger, Jan 30, 2008
    #8
  9. Harlan Messinger wrote:

    > Jeff wrote:
    >> Start over. Christ, you're an Italian. Think elegant design. Don't
    >> think MySpace.

    >
    > Harsh!


    http://www.firelily.com/opinions/mistress.html :)

    --
    -bts
    -Friends don't let friends drive Vista
     
    Beauregard T. Shagnasty, Jan 30, 2008
    #9
  10. Paul

    dorayme Guest

    In article
    <D55oj.518974$>,
    "Beauregard T. Shagnasty" <> wrote:

    > Harlan Messinger wrote:
    >
    > > Jeff wrote:
    > >> Start over. Christ, you're an Italian. Think elegant design. Don't
    > >> think MySpace.

    > >
    > > Harsh!

    >
    > http://www.firelily.com/opinions/mistress.html :)


    "After ten seconds, human beings lose focus on whatever they were
    paying attention to."

    Sad isn't it?

    --
    dorayme
     
    dorayme, Jan 30, 2008
    #10
  11. Paul

    Jeff Guest

    Harlan Messinger wrote:
    > Jeff wrote:
    >> Paul wrote:
    >>> I have tried to validate my web site, and it has a lot of errors.
    >>> Now, the site works fine in IE and Mozilla Firefox without problems.
    >>> I don't know if there are problems using other browsers.
    >>> I am asking to you if it is really so important the correct
    >>> validating when I work very well with my site as it is now.
    >>> Recently I have improved it using your experience, thank you very much.
    >>> As you can see, I am only a self-made-html-man :))
    >>> Paul
    >>> --
    >>> http://www.tortebomboniere.com/bomboniere/favourcake01.html

    >>
    >> Just forget the validation for the time being. You have serious
    >> useability issues.
    >>
    >> You can start with navigation. You should have clear consistent
    >> navigation on all pages. Make it nearly the same on every page and put
    >> it either at the top or along one side, never in the middle. You
    >> should never have pages that have no way of getting to the rest of
    >> your site without backing up.
    >>
    >> Then reduce the clutter, and finally emphasize what you want to
    >> sell. Why should a clock and figurines take up most of the initial
    >> visible space on a page about cakes?

    >
    > I was wondering about the clock. What's the point?
    >
    > The OP takes up an awful lot of space giving us *four times* the same
    > litany of occasions for which they bake cakes, and in one instance
    > breaking the list up every couple of items with another chorus of "Favor
    > cakes and Bonbonniere for". And that's before getting to the links for
    > the individual styles of favor cake.
    >
    > Don't get me wrong, OP. My mouth is watering. But you could cut out at
    > least one-third of your page, and maybe a half, and accomplish
    > everything you need to.
    >
    >> Start over. Christ, you're an Italian. Think elegant design. Don't
    >> think MySpace.

    >
    > Harsh!



    I'm a little surprised by that. Didn't we have a long argument over
    <br />?

    And yet nested tables and font tags are OK?

    I looked through the HTML and I did not see a fix or even a quarter
    of a fix that wouldn't be harder than rewriting the page. YMMV.

    Jeff
     
    Jeff, Jan 30, 2008
    #11
  12. Paul

    dorayme Guest

    In article <>,
    Jeff <jeff@spam_me_not.com> wrote:

    > Harlan Messinger wrote:
    > > Jeff wrote:


    > >> Start over. Christ, you're an Italian. Think elegant design. Don't
    > >> think MySpace.

    > >
    > > Harsh!

    >
    >
    > I'm a little surprised by that. Didn't we have a long argument over
    > <br />?
    >
    > And yet nested tables and font tags are OK?
    >
    > I looked through the HTML and I did not see a fix or even a quarter
    > of a fix that wouldn't be harder than rewriting the page. YMMV.
    >


    Well, it is right that different people's mmv. It can be a
    learning experience to clean up such a design bit by bit. With
    greater experience one would go a different way. Much time and
    effort probably went into OPs site and it is the easiest thing in
    the world to sit here and say things that do not take into
    account the OPs busy situation. Many business people, especially
    one man businesses are very pressed for time.

    --
    dorayme
     
    dorayme, Jan 30, 2008
    #12
  13. Paul

    Paul Guest

    "Jonathan N. Little" <> ha scritto nel messaggio
    news:a42a1$47a0bf32$40cba7b2$...
    > Put less on each page and have more pages...put the focus on your product.
    > Keep your navigation consistent.


    Thank you to all of you. All your suggestions make me feel miserable, and I
    realize that I have poor culture in these arguments.
    I know that this isn't my work. I haven't had any serious study about html,
    but autodidacte.
    I had a commerce and wanted to have an e-commerce. So I tried to build a
    website reading books and tutorials. Well, my website went indexed by Google
    and we started having orders from everywhere. It really was amazing!!
    My website was really ugly but it worked, lots of orders, more than we can
    sell, probably because people liked our products. We receive letters from
    customers with compliments (about products and, yes, about the "beautiful"
    site....).
    Now I desire to make the site less ugly and more usable.
    Today after having read your messages I have started on making some
    modifications.
    I have "cleaned" the home page and put the favor cakes in their own pages.
    And yes, I like these variations. The fact is that our items are too much,
    so it is difficult organize them in a rational way.

    Most of you can say that many of my html codes are wrong, This will be my
    second step and I'll try to learn more. I don't want assign this work to
    other people. It costs money (rightly) and I should lose the pleasure of
    "working" (or playing) with the computer..:))
    Paul
     
    Paul, Jan 30, 2008
    #13
  14. Paul

    Jeff Guest

    dorayme wrote:
    > In article <>,
    > Jeff <jeff@spam_me_not.com> wrote:
    >
    >> Harlan Messinger wrote:
    >>> Jeff wrote:

    >
    >>>> Start over. Christ, you're an Italian. Think elegant design. Don't
    >>>> think MySpace.
    >>> Harsh!

    >>
    >> I'm a little surprised by that. Didn't we have a long argument over
    >> <br />?
    >>
    >> And yet nested tables and font tags are OK?
    >>
    >> I looked through the HTML and I did not see a fix or even a quarter
    >> of a fix that wouldn't be harder than rewriting the page. YMMV.
    >>

    >
    > Well, it is right that different people's mmv. It can be a
    > learning experience to clean up such a design bit by bit. With
    > greater experience one would go a different way. Much time and
    > effort probably went into OPs site and it is the easiest thing in
    > the world to sit here and say things that do not take into
    > account the OPs busy situation. Many business people, especially
    > one man businesses are very pressed for time.


    Well, it looks like the OP has been busy. And although not a piece of
    beauty it is an improvement.

    Jeff
    >
     
    Jeff, Jan 30, 2008
    #14
  15. Paul

    dorayme Guest

    In article <>,
    Jeff <jeff@spam_me_not.com> wrote:

    > dorayme wrote:
    > > In article <>,
    > > Jeff <jeff@spam_me_not.com> wrote:


    > > Well, it is right that different people's mmv. It can be a
    > > learning experience to clean up such a design bit by bit. With
    > > greater experience one would go a different way. Much time and
    > > effort probably went into OPs site and it is the easiest thing in
    > > the world to sit here and say things that do not take into
    > > account the OPs busy situation. Many business people, especially
    > > one man businesses are very pressed for time.

    >
    > Well, it looks like the OP has been busy. And although not a piece of
    > beauty it is an improvement.
    >


    Good, I hope everyone keeps giving him bits and pieces and
    remains patient. His site may end up as yummy as his cakes. But
    if he is overwhelmed and tries from scratch, he might do what I
    do with a cake that is hard to make: throw the thing and all the
    kitchen utensils onto the floor in a terrible tantrum that grows
    to a general and violent spree on the whole kitchen - like Johnny
    Cash in a backstage room in 'Walk the Line'.

    --
    dorayme
     
    dorayme, Jan 30, 2008
    #15
  16. Harlan Messinger wrote:

    > Jeff wrote:


    >> Start over. Christ, you're an Italian. Think elegant design. Don't
    >> think MySpace.

    >
    > Harsh!


    But, yet......a compliment. :)


    --
    Blinky
    Killing all posts from Google Groups
    The Usenet Improvement Project: http://improve-usenet.org
    Blinky: http://blinkynet.net
     
    Blinky the Shark, Jan 31, 2008
    #16
  17. Jeff wrote:
    > Harlan Messinger wrote:
    >> Jeff wrote:
    >>> Paul wrote:
    >>>> I have tried to validate my web site, and it has a lot of errors.
    >>>> Now, the site works fine in IE and Mozilla Firefox without problems.
    >>>> I don't know if there are problems using other browsers.
    >>>> I am asking to you if it is really so important the correct
    >>>> validating when I work very well with my site as it is now.
    >>>> Recently I have improved it using your experience, thank you very much.
    >>>> As you can see, I am only a self-made-html-man :))
    >>>> Paul
    >>>> --
    >>>> http://www.tortebomboniere.com/bomboniere/favourcake01.html
    >>>
    >>> Just forget the validation for the time being. You have serious
    >>> useability issues.
    >>>
    >>> You can start with navigation. You should have clear consistent
    >>> navigation on all pages. Make it nearly the same on every page and
    >>> put it either at the top or along one side, never in the middle. You
    >>> should never have pages that have no way of getting to the rest of
    >>> your site without backing up.
    >>>
    >>> Then reduce the clutter, and finally emphasize what you want to
    >>> sell. Why should a clock and figurines take up most of the initial
    >>> visible space on a page about cakes?

    >>
    >> I was wondering about the clock. What's the point?
    >>
    >> The OP takes up an awful lot of space giving us *four times* the same
    >> litany of occasions for which they bake cakes, and in one instance
    >> breaking the list up every couple of items with another chorus of
    >> "Favor cakes and Bonbonniere for". And that's before getting to the
    >> links for the individual styles of favor cake.
    >>
    >> Don't get me wrong, OP. My mouth is watering. But you could cut out at
    >> least one-third of your page, and maybe a half, and accomplish
    >> everything you need to.
    >>
    >>> Start over. Christ, you're an Italian. Think elegant design. Don't
    >>> think MySpace.

    >>
    >> Harsh!

    >
    > I'm a little surprised by that. Didn't we have a long argument over
    > <br />?
    >
    > And yet nested tables and font tags are OK?


    Who said that? What are you talking about?
     
    Harlan Messinger, Jan 31, 2008
    #17
  18. Jeff wrote:
    > dorayme wrote:
    >> In article <>,
    >> Jeff <jeff@spam_me_not.com> wrote:
    >>
    >>> Harlan Messinger wrote:
    >>>> Jeff wrote:

    >>
    >>>>> Start over. Christ, you're an Italian. Think elegant design.
    >>>>> Don't think MySpace.
    >>>> Harsh!
    >>>
    >>> I'm a little surprised by that. Didn't we have a long argument
    >>> over <br />?
    >>>
    >>> And yet nested tables and font tags are OK?
    >>>
    >>> I looked through the HTML and I did not see a fix or even a
    >>> quarter of a fix that wouldn't be harder than rewriting the page. YMMV.
    >>>

    >>
    >> Well, it is right that different people's mmv. It can be a learning
    >> experience to clean up such a design bit by bit. With greater
    >> experience one would go a different way. Much time and effort probably
    >> went into OPs site and it is the easiest thing in the world to sit
    >> here and say things that do not take into account the OPs busy
    >> situation. Many business people, especially one man businesses are
    >> very pressed for time.

    >
    > Well, it looks like the OP has been busy. And although not a piece of
    > beauty it is an improvement.


    Indeed. I'm impressed. Actually, I think it was useful to have the two
    sets of links and photos. Now he only has the links to separate pages
    based on occasion. Before there was another set that linked to pages
    with the cakes categorized by design. I think that was worthwhile. I
    would have made two changes to the earlier arrangement: Make the
    distinction clear, by placing a heading to the effect of "Cakes for Each
    Occasion" and "Our Cake Designs" in front of the respective sections;
    and, for each cake design, remove the list of occasions for which the
    design can be used (because a person that concerned about the particular
    occasion will be using the link for the occasion rather than the link
    for the design anyway, and because that information can and should
    appear on the page to which the link leads).

    As for other changes: the table of boxed links above the images should
    be replaced by floating boxes so that they don't overflow the browser
    horizontally. Likewise for the boxed images. (I realize the OP may not
    know anything about floats.) And while the clock is gone, the date is
    still there. It doesn't serve any purpose, and the Italian flag and link
    could sit to the right of the main heading instead.
     
    Harlan Messinger, Jan 31, 2008
    #18
  19. Paul wrote:
    > "Jonathan N. Little" <> ha scritto nel messaggio
    > news:a42a1$47a0bf32$40cba7b2$...
    >> Put less on each page and have more pages...put the focus on your product.
    >> Keep your navigation consistent.

    >
    > Thank you to all of you. All your suggestions make me feel miserable, and I
    > realize that I have poor culture in these arguments.


    I'm so sorry, I don't think any of us who responded to you meant you to
    feel miserable! It's clear that you worked hard on it, and there's a lot
    of great material on your page and website. Please don't be discouraged.

    > I know that this isn't my work. I haven't had any serious study about html,
    > but autodidacte.


    We would say "self-taught".

    > I had a commerce and wanted to have an e-commerce. So I tried to build a
    > website reading books and tutorials. Well, my website went indexed by Google
    > and we started having orders from everywhere. It really was amazing!!
    > My website was really ugly but it worked, lots of orders, more than we can
    > sell, probably because people liked our products. We receive letters from
    > customers with compliments (about products and, yes, about the "beautiful"
    > site....).


    The photos are gorgeous, and there's a lot that I like about your site.

    > Now I desire to make the site less ugly and more usable.
    > Today after having read your messages I have started on making some
    > modifications.
    > I have "cleaned" the home page and put the favor cakes in their own pages.
    > And yes, I like these variations. The fact is that our items are too much,
    > so it is difficult organize them in a rational way.


    It's true, it can be a challenge.

    > Most of you can say that many of my html codes are wrong, This will be my
    > second step and I'll try to learn more. I don't want assign this work to
    > other people. It costs money (rightly) and I should lose the pleasure of
    > "working" (or playing) with the computer..:))
     
    Harlan Messinger, Jan 31, 2008
    #19
  20. Harlan Messinger wrote:
    > Paul wrote:
    >> "Jonathan N. Little" <> ha scritto nel messaggio
    >> news:a42a1$47a0bf32$40cba7b2$...
    >>> Put less on each page and have more pages...put the focus on your
    >>> product. Keep your navigation consistent.

    >>
    >> Thank you to all of you. All your suggestions make me feel miserable,
    >> and I realize that I have poor culture in these arguments.

    >
    > I'm so sorry, I don't think any of us who responded to you meant you to
    > feel miserable! It's clear that you worked hard on it, and there's a lot
    > of great material on your page and website. Please don't be discouraged.
    >
    >> I know that this isn't my work. I haven't had any serious study about
    >> html, but autodidacte.

    >
    > We would say "self-taught".


    There is no shame in that! Same here, having a son in computer science
    in college I have seen what they "teach" for web design and and most is
    either obsolete (1996 vintage) or just plain wrong.

    >
    >> I had a commerce and wanted to have an e-commerce. So I tried to build
    >> a website reading books and tutorials. Well, my website went indexed
    >> by Google and we started having orders from everywhere. It really was
    >> amazing!!
    >> My website was really ugly but it worked, lots of orders, more than we
    >> can sell, probably because people liked our products. We receive
    >> letters from customers with compliments (about products and, yes,
    >> about the "beautiful" site....).

    >
    > The photos are gorgeous, and there's a lot that I like about your site.


    Agree with Harlan here. It is difficult to get good images that work on
    the web.

    >
    >> Now I desire to make the site less ugly and more usable.
    >> Today after having read your messages I have started on making some
    >> modifications.
    >> I have "cleaned" the home page and put the favor cakes in their own
    >> pages.
    >> And yes, I like these variations. The fact is that our items are too
    >> much, so it is difficult organize them in a rational way.

    >
    > It's true, it can be a challenge.


    Very much so, and will always be evolving. That said, to split pages up
    and maybe divide your cake into smaller sub-category galleries would
    improve the site. It would allow your customers to focus on a smaller
    collection of cake without limiting the total about of cake that you can
    feature on the whole site. Putting them all on one page can be
    overwhelming like walking into one of those mega-stores (Wal*Mart) with
    a wall-o-stuff!

    >> Most of you can say that many of my html codes are wrong, This will
    >> be my second step and I'll try to learn more. I don't want assign this
    >> work to other people. It costs money (rightly) and I should lose the
    >> pleasure of "working" (or playing) with the computer..:))


    My advice is go and do the tutorials on HTML and CSS on www.htmldog.com
    that I have found to be the most accurate for the most up to date
    practices of web authoring. It will give you a good base to start...

    --
    Take care,

    Jonathan
    -------------------
    LITTLE WORKS STUDIO
    http://www.LittleWorksStudio.com
     
    Jonathan N. Little, Jan 31, 2008
    #20
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