what do you think about this site?

Discussion in 'HTML' started by www.douglassdavis.com, Aug 15, 2005.

  1. www.douglassdavis.com, Aug 15, 2005
    #1
    1. Advertising

  2. www.douglassdavis.com

    Safalra Guest

    www.douglassdavis.com wrote:
    > What do you think of this website?
    >
    > http://www.christianlibraryinternational.com
    >
    > There are a few problems that I know of, but, I just wanted to put it
    > out there and see what you thought.


    Seeing as you're using Frontpage, I'll comment on the usability rather
    than the code (which, being Frontpage-produced, is a bit of a mess...):

    1) Your logo at the top has no alt-text. In this case it should be
    blank because it would be duplicating the title and slogan at the top
    of the page, so just set alt="". Also it should probably be a PNG
    rather than a GIF as it's suffering from some horrible dithering.

    2) Try to avoid underlining text that isn't a link, as most people
    assume underlined text is a link (it suggests 'clickability', as they
    say...). Usually using <strong> would be better.

    3) Your newsletter sign-up form looks like a search box - this isn't
    helped by the button next to it being labelled 'Go', which users would
    more frequently see in an address bar or search engine. The alt-text
    for the button is better but I think 'sign up for newsletter' would be
    better than just 'send e-mail address'.

    --
    Safalra (Stephen Morley)
    http://www.safalra.com/hypertext/usability/
     
    Safalra, Aug 15, 2005
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. After reviewing the situation, www.douglassdavis.com looked in the general direction of alt.www.webmaster and blew a
    mouthful of

    >
    >
    > What do you think of this website?
    >
    > http://www.christianlibraryinternational.com
    >
    > There are a few problems that I know of, but, I just wanted to put it
    > out there and see what you thought.
    >


    firstly, http://validator.w3c.org is your friend. declare a doctype, and then validate your pages.

    I'm not sure that I'm really crazy about the blue text on yellow background ... it's kind of ... I dunno ... yicky. Remember - white
    space is your friend.

    I'll leave the FrontPage bashing to others ...

    I think the 'architecture' is good - you can find information easily, and it's well organized.

    All-in-all - nice first go.

    --
    Got lint?
     
    Matt-the-Hoople, Aug 15, 2005
    #3
  4. Safalra wrote:

    > 1) Your logo at the top has no alt-text. In this case it should be
    > blank because it would be duplicating the title and slogan at the top
    > of the page, so just set alt="". Also it should probably be a PNG
    > rather than a GIF as it's suffering from some horrible dithering.
    >
    > 2) Try to avoid underlining text that isn't a link, as most people
    > assume underlined text is a link (it suggests 'clickability', as they
    > say...). Usually using <strong> would be better.
    >
    > 3) Your newsletter sign-up form looks like a search box - this isn't
    > helped by the button next to it being labelled 'Go', which users would
    > more frequently see in an address bar or search engine. The alt-text
    > for the button is better but I think 'sign up for newsletter' would be
    > better than just 'send e-mail address'.
    >


    Thanks for the feedback... Unfortunately, the person who wrote much of
    the content actually uses frontpage, but he now has a copy of
    Dreamweaver that he is learning.
     
    www.douglassdavis.com, Aug 15, 2005
    #4
  5. Writing in news:alt.www.webmaster,alt.html
    From the safety of the http://groups.google.com cafeteria
    www.douglassdavis.com <> said:

    > ...
    > Unfortunately, the person who wrote much of
    > the content actually uses frontpage,


    Please explain to your collaborator that plain text will suffice.

    > but he now has a copy of
    > Dreamweaver that he is learning.


    back away slowly and firmly but quietly shut the door.

    there can only be one webmaster.

    --
    William Tasso

    ** Business as usual
     
    William Tasso, Aug 15, 2005
    #5
  6. Charles Sweeney, Aug 15, 2005
    #6
  7. Safalra wrote

    > 1) Your logo at the top has no alt-text.


    Right. So change it from no text to ""!

    Get real.

    Anyway, it's a fucking logo we're talking about here.

    Aside from three blind pedants (most blind people couldn't give a stuff)
    what does this have to do with usability?

    If the whole world was made for your three blind pedants, it would grind
    to a halt. Which might not be a bad idea, you and your sort could then
    jump off it.

    I worked with disabled people for three years. Most were good decent
    people. There was a minority who had a real chip on their shoulder, and
    got ALL the attention through their incessant self-indulgent whinging
    and complaining. And guess what. The good decent civilised polite
    ones, many who could not even fucking speak, got put to the back of the
    queue.

    That's where your fucking stupid ideas get us.

    --
    Charles Sweeney
    http://CharlesSweeney.com
     
    Charles Sweeney, Aug 15, 2005
    #7
  8. Charles Sweeney wrote:
    > Safalra wrote
    >
    >> 1) Your logo at the top has no alt-text.

    >
    > Right. So change it from no text to ""!
    >
    > Get real.


    Charles, some of us - especially those on dialup - disable the
    download and display of images for speed reasons. As I understand it,
    some browsers will attempt to show an image (leave space for it?) if
    there is no alt attribute. Others will not leave space if alt="" is used.

    --
    -bts
    -This space intentionally left blank.
     
    Beauregard T. Shagnasty, Aug 16, 2005
    #8
  9. www.douglassdavis.com

    GreyWyvern Guest

    Beauregard T. Shagnasty <> wrote:
    > Charles Sweeney wrote:
    >> Safalra wrote
    >>
    >>> 1) Your logo at the top has no alt-text.

    >>
    >> Right. So change it from no text to ""!
    >> Get real.

    >
    > Charles, some of us - especially those on dialup - disable the
    > download and display of images for speed reasons. As I understand it,
    > some browsers will attempt to show an image (leave space for it?) if
    > there is no alt attribute. Others will not leave space if alt="" is used.


    Opera will display "Image" instead of the image if it has no alt text, and
    remove the placeholder box entirely - thereby keeping the page
    clean-looking - if it includes alt=""

    Grey

    --
    The technical axiom that nothing is impossible sinisterly implies the
    pitfall corollary that nothing is ridiculous.
    - http://www.greywyvern.com/webslavent?msg=149 - Presto the Puffin!
     
    GreyWyvern, Aug 16, 2005
    #9
  10. Writing in news:alt.www.webmaster,alt.html
    From the safety of the Bell Sympatico cafeteria
    GreyWyvern <> said:

    > Beauregard T. Shagnasty <> wrote:
    >> Charles Sweeney wrote:
    >>> Safalra wrote
    >>>
    >>>> 1) Your logo at the top has no alt-text.
    >>>
    >>> Right. So change it from no text to ""!
    >>> Get real.

    >>
    >> Charles, some of us - especially those on dialup - disable the
    >> download and display of images for speed reasons. As I understand it,
    >> some browsers will attempt to show an image (leave space for it?) if
    >> there is no alt attribute. Others will not leave space if alt="" is
    >> used.

    >
    > Opera will display "Image" instead of the image if it has no alt text,
    > and remove the placeholder box entirely - thereby keeping the page
    > clean-looking - if it includes alt=""


    Indeed, careful and considered use of alt text can lead to a page where
    the absence of images is not even noticed.

    --
    William Tasso

    ** Business as usual
     
    William Tasso, Aug 16, 2005
    #10
  11. www.douglassdavis.com

    Safalra Guest

    Charles Sweeney wrote:
    > Safalra wrote
    > > 1) Your logo at the top has no alt-text.

    >
    > Right. So change it from no text to ""!
    > Get real.
    > Anyway, it's a fucking logo we're talking about here.


    Nice use of abusive language to back up an argument. :)

    fallacyCount++;

    > Aside from three blind pedants (most blind people couldn't give a stuff)
    > what does this have to do with usability?


    Aside from the usability effects of the differences between missing
    alt-text and alt="" mentioned by other posters, alt-text is also
    required for validation.

    > If the whole world was made for your three blind pedants, it would grind
    > to a halt.


    Lack of alt-text makes the world go round does it?

    > Which might not be a bad idea, you and your sort could then
    > jump off it.


    fallacyCount++;

    > I worked with disabled people for three years.


    You're not the only one.

    > Most were good decent
    > people. There was a minority who had a real chip on their shoulder, and
    > got ALL the attention through their incessant self-indulgent whinging
    > and complaining. And guess what. The good decent civilised polite
    > ones, many who could not even fucking speak, got put to the back of the
    > queue.


    So 'good decent people' are those who tolerate the fact that the rest
    of the world is too lazy to make even slight changes that would improve
    their life greatly?

    Exactly how much effort would it require for MS to change Frontpage to
    default to alt="" if the user doesn't specify alt-text? This is a
    one-off minimal cost that benefits usability for as long as
    Frontpage-generated pages exist on the internet.

    > That's where your fucking stupid ideas get us.


    fallacyCount++;

    If you want any chance of your arguments convincing anyone who hasn't
    already made up their mind, I suggest you read Stephen's Guide To The
    Logical Fallacies (it's not my page, it's a totally unrelated Stephen):

    http://datanation.com/fallacies/index.htm

    And I know you don't care - I'm not aiming to convince you, but our
    audience.

    --
    Safalra (Stephen Morley)
    http://www.safalra.com/hypertext/usability/
     
    Safalra, Aug 16, 2005
    #11
  12. Writing in news:alt.www.webmaster,alt.html
    From the safety of the http://groups.google.com cafeteria
    Safalra <> said:

    > ...
    > the usability effects of the differences between missing
    > alt-text and alt="" mentioned by other posters ....


    Would it help I wonder, or would it be considered to be spamming, if I
    were to publish a link to a page which IM(NS)HO clearly and simply shows
    the benefits of careful use of alt text?

    oh well - let's publish and be damned, this domain registered last night:

    Note: this is a holding page and carries a panel advertising web/net
    related services - those easily offended by such displays are advised to
    *avoid* this URL.

    http://yvonnenolan.com/

    The image logos in the advertising panel are replaced by the words
    represented in the logo. The site logo is purely decoration and therefore
    has no alt text.

    The sense can still be derived with the images on or off. The best
    implementation (in a graphical UA) I've seen is FireFox, but Opera and IE
    are both usable. Of greater importance is the presentation in text only
    UAs and lets not forget our friendly arachnids.

    --
    William Tasso

    ** Business as usual
     
    William Tasso, Aug 16, 2005
    #12
  13. www.douglassdavis.com

    Safalra Guest

    William Tasso wrote:
    > Writing in news:alt.www.webmaster,alt.html
    > From the safety of the http://groups.google.com cafeteria


    Shhh... I was hoping people wouldn't notice I use Google Groups. ;-)

    > Safalra <> said:
    > > ...
    > > the usability effects of the differences between missing
    > > alt-text and alt="" mentioned by other posters ....

    >
    > Would it help I wonder, or would it be considered to be spamming, if I
    > were to publish a link to a page which IM(NS)HO clearly and simply shows
    > the benefits of careful use of alt text?


    I'd only cosider it spamming if you started talking about your low, low
    prices. :)

    > [snip]
    > http://yvonnenolan.com/
    > The image logos in the advertising panel are replaced by the words
    > represented in the logo.


    If I was to be really fussy, I could point out that speech browsers
    might have trouble reading the word 'tbData', although I presume most
    of the modern ones can guess when something's an initialisation
    ("Professional web site services for business, from T-B-D-A-T-A").

    --
    Safalra (Stephen Morley)
    http://www.safalra.com/hypertext/usability/
     
    Safalra, Aug 16, 2005
    #13
  14. Writing in news:alt.www.webmaster,alt.html
    From the safety of the http://groups.google.com cafeteria
    Safalra <> said:

    > William Tasso wrote:
    >> Writing in news:alt.www.webmaster,alt.html
    >> From the safety of the http://groups.google.com cafeteria

    >
    > Shhh... I was hoping people wouldn't notice I use Google Groups. ;-)
    >
    >> Safalra <> said:
    >> > ...
    >> > the usability effects of the differences between missing
    >> > alt-text and alt="" mentioned by other posters ....

    >>
    >> Would it help I wonder, or would it be considered to be spamming, if I
    >> were to publish a link to a page which IM(NS)HO clearly and simply shows
    >> the benefits of careful use of alt text?

    >
    > I'd only cosider it spamming if you started talking about your low, low
    > prices. :)


    ok then to talk about our excellent ..... - back away, only kidding :)

    >> [snip]
    >> http://yvonnenolan.com/
    >> The image logos in the advertising panel are replaced by the words
    >> represented in the logo.

    >
    > If I was to be really fussy,


    /braces self for criticism

    > I could point out that speech browsers
    > might have trouble reading the word 'tbData',


    yes - that is indeed extremely picky ;)

    > although I presume most
    > of the modern ones can guess when something's an initialisation
    > ("Professional web site services for business, from T-B-D-A-T-A").


    ahh - the voice processors I've heard pronounce it tee-bee-darta (almost
    sounds like tee-bee-darda)

    --
    William Tasso

    ** Business as usual
     
    William Tasso, Aug 16, 2005
    #14
  15. www.douglassdavis.com

    Safalra Guest

    William Tasso wrote:
    > Writing in news:alt.www.webmaster,alt.html
    > From the safety of the http://groups.google.com cafeteria
    > Safalra <> said:
    > > William Tasso wrote:
    > >> [snip]
    > >> http://yvonnenolan.com/
    > >> The image logos in the advertising panel are replaced by the words
    > >> represented in the logo.

    > >
    > > [snip]
    > > I could point out that speech browsers
    > > might have trouble reading the word 'tbData',

    >
    > [snip]
    > ahh - the voice processors I've heard pronounce it tee-bee-darta (almost
    > sounds like tee-bee-darda)


    That's good then. (So long as they can be configured to use a British
    accent instead :) I presume the capital letter is what stops them
    trying to pronounce it entirely as an initialisation (otherwise strange
    things would happen with an initialisation with a few vowels, but not
    many).

    --
    Safalra (Stephen Morley)
    http://www.safalra.com/hypertext/
     
    Safalra, Aug 16, 2005
    #15
  16. www.douglassdavis.com

    Neredbojias Guest

    With neither quill nor qualm, Charles Sweeney quothed:

    > Safalra wrote
    >
    > > 1) Your logo at the top has no alt-text.

    >
    > Right. So change it from no text to ""!
    >
    > Get real.
    >
    > Anyway, it's a fucking logo we're talking about here.
    >
    > Aside from three blind pedants (most blind people couldn't give a stuff)
    > what does this have to do with usability?
    >
    > If the whole world was made for your three blind pedants, it would grind
    > to a halt. Which might not be a bad idea, you and your sort could then
    > jump off it.
    >
    > I worked with disabled people for three years. Most were good decent
    > people. There was a minority who had a real chip on their shoulder, and
    > got ALL the attention through their incessant self-indulgent whinging
    > and complaining. And guess what. The good decent civilised polite
    > ones, many who could not even fucking speak, got put to the back of the
    > queue.
    >
    > That's where your fucking stupid ideas get us.


    I agree that, generally speaking, the use of 'alt=""' is ludicrous. And
    the argument that this or that browser does that or this if 'alt=""' is
    included or not is equally ridiculous. Browsers could and should
    default to an optimal solution with or without it presence.

    But it is required for validation so I up-mark it in my images
    nonetheless. The bandwidth waste is minimal.

    --
    Neredbojias
    Contrary to popular belief, it is believable.
     
    Neredbojias, Aug 16, 2005
    #16
  17. www.douglassdavis.com

    dorayme Guest

    > From: "Safalra" <
    >
    > If you want any chance of your arguments convincing anyone who hasn't
    > already made up their mind, I suggest you read Stephen's Guide To The
    > Logical Fallacies (it's not my page, it's a totally unrelated Stephen):
    >
    > http://datanation.com/fallacies/index.htm
    >
    > And I know you don't care - I'm not aiming to convince you, but our
    > audience.
    >
    > --
    > Safalra (Stephen Morley)
    >


    All well said Stephen! It is nice to think that a reading of this guide will
    do the trick. But I am gloomily convinced it won't because it takes some
    clear thinking ability to appreciate the guide. And more to put it into
    practice. There is no real hope for the world at all.

    dorayme
     
    dorayme, Aug 17, 2005
    #17
  18. www.douglassdavis.com

    Tony Guest

    "Safalra" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > www.douglassdavis.com wrote:
    >> What do you think of this website?
    >>
    >> http://www.christianlibraryinternational.com
    >>
    >> There are a few problems that I know of, but, I just wanted to put it
    >> out there and see what you thought.

    >
    > Seeing as you're using Frontpage, I'll comment on the usability rather
    > than the code (which, being Frontpage-produced, is a bit of a mess...):


    He must be pretty damn good, then, if something generated by Frontpage is
    only a BIT of a mess!
     
    Tony, Aug 17, 2005
    #18
  19. www.douglassdavis.com

    Safalra Guest

    dorayme wrote:
    > > From: "Safalra" <
    > > If you want any chance of your arguments convincing anyone who hasn't
    > > already made up their mind, I suggest you read Stephen's Guide To The
    > > Logical Fallacies (it's not my page, it's a totally unrelated Stephen):
    > >
    > > http://datanation.com/fallacies/index.htm
    > >
    > > And I know you don't care - I'm not aiming to convince you, but our
    > > audience.

    >
    > All well said Stephen! It is nice to think that a reading of this guide will
    > do the trick. But I am gloomily convinced it won't because it takes some
    > clear thinking ability to appreciate the guide. And more to put it into
    > practice. There is no real hope for the world at all.


    It's easy to be cynical, but slow progress is being made. I remember I
    time when mentioning usability anywhere outside of
    comp.infosystems.www.authoring.html was asking for trouble, but now
    alt.html is becoming a friend of usability. I think it'll take a while
    to conquer alt.www.webmaster, though...

    --
    Safalra (Stephen Morley)
    http://www.safalra.com/hypertext/usability/
     
    Safalra, Aug 17, 2005
    #19
  20. "Safalra" <> wrote in message
    news:
    > 1) Your logo at the top has no alt-text. In this case it should be
    > blank because it would be duplicating the title and slogan at the top
    > of the page, so just set alt="". Also it should probably be a PNG
    > rather than a GIF as it's suffering from some horrible dithering.


    The purpose of alt text is not so that a page will validate.

    The purpose of alt text is to identify graphics that people either can't
    see or aren't downloading, so why wouldn't you use the alt text to
    identify the image as the site logo?
    --
    Red
     
    Red E. Kilowatt, Aug 17, 2005
    #20
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