where are the program that are written in python?

Discussion in 'Python' started by Deep_Feelings, May 21, 2010.

  1. python is not a new programming language ,it has been there for the
    last .... 15+ years or so ? right ?

    however by having a look at this page http://wiki.python.org/moin/Applications
    i could not see many programs written in python (i will be interested
    more in COMMERCIAL programs written in python ). and to be honest ,i
    tried some of the programs in that list and all the programs that i
    tried either dead projects or so buggy !

    1- where are the programs that is written in python ?
    2- python is high productivity language : why there are no commercial
    programs written in python ?

    is python a valid practical programming language ?
    why it is not used in commercial software ?

    please don't mention programs where python was used as a glue ,those
    programs are not actually written in python.

    any help will be appreciated

    thank you
     
    Deep_Feelings, May 21, 2010
    #1
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  2. On 21 May 2010 11:21:11 UTC+1, Deep_Feelings <> wrote:
    > 1- where are the programs that is written in python ?
    > 2- python is high productivity language : why there are no commercial
    > programs written in python ?


    See http://www.python.org/about/success/

    --
    Cheers,
    Simon B.
     
    Simon Brunning, May 21, 2010
    #2
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  3. On 05/21/10 11:21, Deep_Feelings wrote:
    > python is not a new programming language ,it has been there for the
    > last .... 15+ years or so ? right ?

    Yeah about the same as Java
    >
    > however by having a look at this page http://wiki.python.org/moin/Applications
    > i could not see many programs written in python (i will be interested
    > more in COMMERCIAL programs written in python ). and to be honest ,i
    > tried some of the programs in that list and all the programs that i
    > tried either dead projects or so buggy !

    It's a wiki, if anybody is interested they could change the page, I
    actually have never looked at it.
    >
    > 1- where are the programs that is written in python ?
    > 2- python is high productivity language : why there are no commercial
    > programs written in python ?
    >
    > is python a valid practical programming language ?
    > why it is not used in commercial software ?

    My experience is that Python is the FreeBSD of the programming
    languages. For example, the average user knows mac and windows, the
    average admin knows there is also something like linux, and the average
    linux admin knows there is also something like BSD.
    >
    > please don't mention programs where python was used as a glue ,those
    > programs are not actually written in python.

    Python is used in a lot in custom applications, while off the shelve
    software needs a lot of buzzwords to shift any market interest.
    I have participated in a couple of 'pure' Python programs, used by
    Airbus, Randstad and a whole fleet of small firms. But yes, off the
    shelve software seems to be either written in Java or any .net equivalent.
    >
    > any help will be appreciated
    >
    > thank you


    hth
    --
    mph
     
    Martin P. Hellwig, May 21, 2010
    #3
  4. On May 21, 1:35 pm, Simon Brunning <> wrote:
    > On 21 May 2010 11:21:11 UTC+1, Deep_Feelings <> wrote:
    >
    > Seehttp://www.python.org/about/success/


    thankx for reply.

    from that list i have a feeling that python is acting only as "quick
    and dirty work" nothing more !
     
    Deep_Feelings, May 21, 2010
    #4
  5. Deep_Feelings

    News123 Guest

    Deep_Feelings wrote:
    > On May 21, 1:35 pm, Simon Brunning <> wrote:
    >> On 21 May 2010 11:21:11 UTC+1, Deep_Feelings <> wrote:
    >>
    >> Seehttp://www.python.org/about/success/

    >
    > thankx for reply.
    >
    > from that list i have a feeling that python is acting only as "quick
    > and dirty work" nothing more !

    Too bad, that still nobody feels insulted isn't it?
     
    News123, May 21, 2010
    #5
  6. On 21 May 2010 12:12:18 UTC+1, Deep_Feelings <> wrote:
    > from that list i have a feeling that python is acting only as "quick
    > and dirty work" nothing more !


    Really?

    Well, in any case, I can tell you that I know of a number of large
    commercial web sites built with Django. I just can't tell you what
    they are. ;-)

    --
    Cheers,
    Simon B.
     
    Simon Brunning, May 21, 2010
    #6
  7. On Freitag 21 Mai 2010, Jake b wrote:
    > > I don't know of any big game written in python. ( meaning
    > > python code, using c++ libs


    would you call 8702 python statements big? If so,
    Kajongg would be a candidate.

    --
    Wolfgang
     
    Wolfgang Rohdewald, May 21, 2010
    #7
  8. On Fri, 2010-05-21 at 11:37 +0100, Martin P. Hellwig wrote:
    > On 05/21/10 11:21, Deep_Feelings wrote:
    > > however by having a look at this page http://wiki.python.org/moin/Applications
    > > i could not see many programs written in python (i will be interested
    > > more in COMMERCIAL programs written in python ). and to be honest ,i
    > > tried some of the programs in that list and all the programs that i
    > > tried either dead projects or so buggy !


    Most projects are dead projects; that is just the natural state of
    things regardless of language. Just browse Sourceforge for awhile.

    > It's a wiki, if anybody is interested they could change the page, I
    > actually have never looked at it.


    I've looked it over, there is some interesting stuff. But why
    contribute a story when you could be coding on your project! A
    perennial problem. :)

    > > 1- where are the programs that is written in python ?
    > > 2- python is high productivity language : why there are no commercial
    > > programs written in python ?
    > > is python a valid practical programming language ?
    > > why it is not used in commercial software ?


    I suppose it depends on your use of the term "used". It is used a *lot*
    in the SOA / Workflow world - in the form of Jython. That provides a
    very nice way to extend Java applications [it is still Python! Python
    is a language, not a runtime].

    In general to 'core' of large applications are, IMO, easier to maintain
    in the more rigid statically typed languages as the toolchain can do
    more work for you. Of course someone here will have a fit about that
    statement.

    > > please don't mention programs where python was used as a glue


    Why not?

    And what about Gwibber? Zeitgeist? BitTorrent? Zope/Plone? Those are
    all certainly "real" applications. Zope is almost an industry unto
    itself.

    > ,those programs are not actually written in python.


    I think your distinction is not valid. "glue" is a vital part of every
    enterprise. And the sophistication of some "glue" certainly surpasses
    many "applications".

    > Python is used in a lot in custom applications, while off the shelve
    > software needs a lot of buzzwords to shift any market interest.
    > I have participated in a couple of 'pure' Python programs, used by
    > Airbus, Randstad and a whole fleet of small firms. But yes, off the
    > shelve software seems to be either written in Java or any .net equivalent.


    <http://hackerboss.com/how-to-distribute-commercial-python-applications/> is an interesting read. Certainly the 'packaging' mechanism is less end-user friendly than .NET. I personally would not choose to create an end-user application in Python; but it has become my first choice for server-side development.

    --
    Adam Tauno Williams <> LPIC-1, Novell CLA
    <http://www.whitemiceconsulting.com>
    OpenGroupware, Cyrus IMAPd, Postfix, OpenLDAP, Samba
     
    Adam Tauno Williams, May 21, 2010
    #8
  9. On May 21, 3:21 am, Deep_Feelings <> wrote:
    > python is not a new programming language ,it has been there for the
    > last .... 15+ years or so ? right ?
    >
    > however by having a look at this pagehttp://wiki.python.org/moin/Applications
    > i could not see many programs written in python (i will be interested
    > more in COMMERCIAL programs written in python ). and to be honest ,i
    > tried some of the programs in that list and all the programs that i
    > tried either dead projects or so buggy !
    >
    > 1- where are the programs that is written in python ?
    > 2- python is high productivity language : why there are no commercial
    > programs written in python ?
    >
    > is python a valid practical programming language ?
    > why it is not used in commercial software ?
    >
    > please don't mention programs where python was used as a glue ,those
    > programs are not actually written in python.
    >
    > any help will be appreciated
    >
    > thank you


    I write commercial software full-time in Python (well, mixed with C++)
    at ESRI. I have been able to make a living developing in Python full
    time at various places for the last 4 years. I can assure you that
    there is plenty of commercial software out there that uses Python. The
    reason you don't *see* it is because the development language for a
    commercial product is a lot less important than the functionality of
    the product, so "WRITTEN IN PYTHON!!!!" is likely not going to be a
    bullet point on a marketing slide. And quite frankly, it should be a
    trade secret for the companies enlightened enough to use it as their
    language of choice because it is to productive that it provides a
    competitive advantage.
     
    Jason Scheirer, May 21, 2010
    #9
  10. Deep_Feelings

    Terry Reedy Guest

    On 5/21/2010 7:12 AM, Deep_Feelings wrote:
    > On May 21, 1:35 pm, Simon Brunning<> wrote:
    >> On 21 May 2010 11:21:11 UTC+1, Deep_Feelings<> wrote:
    >>
    >> Seehttp://www.python.org/about/success/

    >
    > thankx for reply.
    >
    > from that list i have a feeling that python is acting only as "quick
    > and dirty work" nothing more !


    Try 'quick and clean' and you would be more accurate.

    But that would not be so trollish, would it?

    tjr
     
    Terry Reedy, May 21, 2010
    #10
  11. On May 21, 5:21 am, Deep_Feelings <> wrote:

    > i could not see many programs written in python


    Well you could try PyPi, or even a search on googlecode.

    > (i will be interested
    > more in COMMERCIAL programs written in python ).


    What do you mean by commercial, and why?

    > and to be honest ,i
    > tried some of the programs in that list and all the programs that i
    > tried either dead projects or so buggy !


    So, you want us to believe that you desperately want to pay someone
    for working Python software, but are finding it hard to find some?

    > 1- where are the programs that is written in python ?


    All over the place.

    > 2- python is high productivity language : why there are no commercial
    > programs written in python ?


    There are a lot of commercial programs written in Python. But any
    company which thinks it has a lock on some kind of super secret sauce
    isn't going to use Python, because it's very easy to reverse engineer
    even compiled Python programs. Also, any company in a competitive
    market where execution speed is extremely important might choose some
    other language because, frankly, the fact that a development tool is
    highly productive is not something that the end user directly cares
    about. (But the up-front choice of another language simply for speed,
    rather than prototyping with Python and then recoding the slow bits,
    would probably be a decision borne of ignorance.)

    > is python a valid practical programming language ?


    Absolutely. I've been using it heavily for 11 years, for real work,
    for which I get paid.

    > why it is not used in commercial software ?


    What makes you think that it's not? Is this some kind of "big lie"
    strategy? To what end?

    > any help will be appreciated


    It's hard to help when you don't describe the problem. Reading
    between the lines, the most charitable and probable interpretation of
    your problem I can come up with is that you think you're going to
    create a multi-billion dollar computer program and you're desperately
    trying to validate your preconceived notion that Python isn't the
    language to write it in. Sorry, but I can't help with that.

    Regards,
    Pat
     
    Patrick Maupin, May 21, 2010
    #11
  12. On Fri, May 21, 2010 at 4:12 AM, Deep_Feelings <> wrote:
    > On May 21, 1:35 pm, Simon Brunning <> wrote:
    >> On 21 May 2010 11:21:11 UTC+1, Deep_Feelings <> wrote:
    >>
    >> Seehttp://www.python.org/about/success/

    >
    > thankx for reply.
    >
    > from that list i have a feeling that python is acting only as "quick
    > and dirty work" nothing more !


    Yeah, there's not really a lot of industry support. If only we could
    get a huge search engine like bing to use python extensively we'd
    be in a lot better shape.

    Geremy Condra
     
    geremy condra, May 21, 2010
    #12
  13. Deep_Feelings

    Terry Reedy Guest

    On 5/21/2010 6:21 AM, Deep_Feelings wrote:
    > python is not a new programming language ,it has been there for the
    > last .... 15+ years or so ? right ?
    >
    > however by having a look at this page http://wiki.python.org/moin/Applications
    > i could not see many programs written in python (i will be interested
    > more in COMMERCIAL programs written in python ). and to be honest ,i


    There are two kinds of 'commercial' programs.
    1. The vast majority are proprietary programs kept within a company for
    its own use. As long as these work as intended, they are mostly
    invisible to the outside world.
    2. Programs sold to anyone who wants them.

    Python trades programmer speed for execution speed. If a successful
    Python program is going to be run millions of times, it makes economic
    sense to convert time-hogging parts to (for instance) C. In fact, this
    is a consideration in deciding what functions should be builtin and
    which stdlib modules are written or rewritten in C.

    Programs being sold tend to be compared to competitors on speed with
    perhaps more weight than they rationally should. Speed is easier to
    measure than, for instance, lack of bugs.

    Python programs can be and sometimes are distributed as .exe files. The
    users of such neither know nor care that some of the source is Python.

    > tried some of the programs in that list and all the programs that i
    > tried either dead projects or so buggy !
    >
    > 1- where are the programs that is written in python ?


    Mostly kept private. For instance, GvR, Python's inventor, spent part of
    his first year at Google writing a neat-looking programmer console
    program in Python (Mondrian) designed to improve the productivity of
    Google programmers. As far as I know, Google has not released it.

    > please don't mention programs where python was used as a glue ,those
    > programs are not actually written in python.


    A C program glues together micro-coded functions. Even a 'pure' CPython
    program glues together C-coded functions. Some are in builtins, some are
    imported from the stdlib, and some can be imported from 3rd party
    packages. The extensibility of CPython is part of its design.

    Terry Jan Reedy
     
    Terry Reedy, May 21, 2010
    #13
  14. Deep_Feelings

    Tim Chase Guest

    On 05/21/2010 01:40 PM, geremy condra wrote:
    >>> See http://www.python.org/about/success/

    >>
    >> thankx for reply.
    >>
    >> from that list i have a feeling that python is acting only as "quick
    >> and dirty work" nothing more !

    >
    > Yeah, there's not really a lot of industry support. If only we could
    > get a huge search engine like bing to use python extensively we'd
    > be in a lot better shape.


    Or if an organization known to hire a bunch of rocket-scientists
    were to use Python...that would make it a real language...

    -tkc


    http://www.python.org/about/success/usa/
     
    Tim Chase, May 21, 2010
    #14
  15. Deep_Feelings

    Aahz Guest

    In article <>,
    Patrick Maupin <> wrote:
    >
    >There are a lot of commercial programs written in Python. But any
    >company which thinks it has a lock on some kind of super secret sauce
    >isn't going to use Python, because it's very easy to reverse engineer
    >even compiled Python programs.


    That's not always true. Both my employer (Egnyte) and one of our main
    competitors (Dropbox) use Python in our clients. We don't care much
    because using our servers is a requirement of the client.
    --
    Aahz () <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/

    f u cn rd ths, u cn gt a gd jb n nx prgrmmng.
     
    Aahz, May 22, 2010
    #15
  16. Deep_Feelings

    Lie Ryan Guest

    On 05/22/10 04:47, Terry Reedy wrote:
    > On 5/21/2010 6:21 AM, Deep_Feelings wrote:
    >> python is not a new programming language ,it has been there for the
    >> last .... 15+ years or so ? right ?
    >>
    >> however by having a look at this page
    >> http://wiki.python.org/moin/Applications
    >> i could not see many programs written in python (i will be interested
    >> more in COMMERCIAL programs written in python ). and to be honest ,i

    >
    > There are two kinds of 'commercial' programs.
    > 1. The vast majority are proprietary programs kept within a company for
    > its own use. As long as these work as intended, they are mostly
    > invisible to the outside world.
    > 2. Programs sold to anyone who wants them.
    >
    > Python trades programmer speed for execution speed. If a successful
    > Python program is going to be run millions of times, it makes economic
    > sense to convert time-hogging parts to (for instance) C. In fact, this
    > is a consideration in deciding what functions should be builtin and
    > which stdlib modules are written or rewritten in C.
    >
    > Programs being sold tend to be compared to competitors on speed with
    > perhaps more weight than they rationally should. Speed is easier to
    > measure than, for instance, lack of bugs.


    doubting python's speed? Look at Mercurial vs. SVN; Mercurial is written
    in Python while SVN in C. Mercurial beats SVN in speed by several orders
    of magnitude.

    One of Mercurial's design goal was to be faster than SVN, if the
    programmers have naively believed that choice of language would matter
    to program's speed, they'd choose to write Mercurial in assembly instead
    (the same argument applies to Git, written in shell scripts).

    Now, you may think this is an unfair comparison, since Mercurial is hype
    and new, SVN is antiquated and old. But it shows that in real-life, the
    language being inherently slow often dosn't matter. What matters more
    are the choice of data structure and algorithm, I/O speed, network
    latency, and development speed.
     
    Lie Ryan, May 22, 2010
    #16
  17. Deep_Feelings

    Chris Rebert Guest

    On Fri, May 21, 2010 at 8:03 PM, Lie Ryan <> wrote:
    > On 05/22/10 04:47, Terry Reedy wrote:
    >> On 5/21/2010 6:21 AM, Deep_Feelings wrote:
    >>> python is not a new programming language ,it has been there for the
    >>> last .... 15+ years or so ? right ?
    >>>
    >>> however by having a look at this page
    >>> http://wiki.python.org/moin/Applications
    >>> i could not see many programs written in python (i will be interested
    >>> more in COMMERCIAL programs written in python ). and to be honest ,i

    >>
    >> There are two kinds of 'commercial' programs.
    >> 1. The vast majority are proprietary programs kept within a company for
    >> its own use. As long as these work as intended, they are mostly
    >> invisible to the outside world.
    >> 2. Programs sold to anyone who wants them.
    >>
    >> Python trades programmer speed for execution speed. If a successful
    >> Python program is going to be run millions of times, it makes economic
    >> sense to convert time-hogging parts to (for instance) C.  In fact, this
    >> is a consideration in deciding what functions should be builtin and
    >> which stdlib modules are written or rewritten in C.
    >>
    >> Programs being sold tend to be compared to competitors on speed with
    >> perhaps more weight than they rationally should. Speed is easier to
    >> measure than, for instance, lack of bugs.

    >
    > doubting python's speed? Look at Mercurial vs. SVN; Mercurial is written
    > in Python while SVN in C. Mercurial beats SVN in speed by several orders
    > of magnitude.


    Erm, in fairness, I recall hearing that some speed-critical bits of hg
    are written in C. It does lend credence to the "Python as glue
    language" argument though; I doubt hg's extensibility and friendly
    interface would have been as easy to implement it C (particularly the
    slick instant-server feature).

    Cheers,
    Chris
    --
    http://blog.rebertia.com
     
    Chris Rebert, May 22, 2010
    #17
  18. Deep_Feelings

    Carl Banks Guest

    On May 21, 3:21 am, Deep_Feelings <> wrote:
    > please don't mention programs where python was used as a glue ,those
    > programs are not actually written in python.


    I hate to answer a troll, but I'll just mention that when people talk
    about a "glue language", they're not talking about using some Python
    code to connect two big systems together (although Python is good for
    that).

    What they are saying is that Python is a good language to serve as
    high-level logic interfacing lots of different library codes--often
    but not always written in faster languages--together in one program.
    In that case, yes, the program is written in Python.

    The word "glue" is probably not the best metaphor, since to most
    people it means "something you use to connect two objects together".
    A better metaphor would be like a "substrate language".

    A lot of materials do use a form of glue as the substrate, but never
    mind that.


    Carl Banks
     
    Carl Banks, May 22, 2010
    #18
  19. On May 21, 8:45 pm, (Aahz) wrote:
    > In article <..com>,
    > Patrick Maupin  <> wrote:
    > >There are a lot of commercial programs written in Python.  But any
    > >company which thinks it has a lock on some kind of super secret sauce
    > >isn't going to use Python, because it's very easy to reverse engineer
    > >even compiled Python programs.  

    >
    > That's not always true.  Both my employer (Egnyte) and one of our main
    > competitors (Dropbox) use Python in our clients.  We don't care much
    > because using our servers is a requirement of the client.


    Absolutely. I wrote my post after the OP's second post, and from that
    short, derisive tome, I inferred that the OP's definition of
    "commercial" was quite narrow, so I was trying to respond on the basis
    of what he would consider "commercial," which BTW, probably wouldn't
    include a lot of programs that, e.g. Google uses to make money.

    Regards,
    Pat
     
    Patrick Maupin, May 22, 2010
    #19
  20. On May 21, 9:12 pm, Ben Finney <> wrote:
    > (Aahz) writes:
    > > In article <>,
    > > Patrick Maupin  <> wrote:

    >
    > > >There are a lot of commercial programs written in Python.  But any
    > > >company which thinks it has a lock on some kind of super secret sauce
    > > >isn't going to use Python, because it's very easy to reverse engineer
    > > >even compiled Python programs.  

    >
    > > That's not always true.  Both my employer (Egnyte) and one of our main
    > > competitors (Dropbox) use Python in our clients.  We don't care much
    > > because using our servers is a requirement of the client.

    >
    > Doesn't that mean those companies don't fit the above description? That
    > is, neither of them “thinks it has a lock on some kind of super secret
    > sauce” in the programs. So they don't seem to be counter-examples.


    Just because someone has competition doesn't mean they don't think
    they have secret sauce. I think Aahz's main point was that in his sub-
    industry, the secret sauce is guarded by not actually letting the
    customer have access to executable code, other than through the
    network.

    Regards,
    Pat
     
    Patrick Maupin, May 22, 2010
    #20
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