Where is Ruby headed etc.

Discussion in 'Ruby' started by Glenn, Feb 16, 2005.

  1. Glenn

    Glenn Guest

    A few musings/questions/dribble from an excited newbie. And my first
    "big" (well, alright, long-winded) post to this forum.


    I'm at an interesting crossroads of my programming career because up
    'til now I've really concentrated on thick-client, Windows-based
    front-end programs mainly written in VB, and usually Oracle and PL/SQL
    back-end.

    Soon I'm going to have to learn java/web-development. A lot of what I
    work on is heading out to a wider audience and so web development
    beckons. Web interfaces/programs/reports etc. on top of databases
    I've created already and no doubt new ones in the future. It seems to
    me that nowadays the web interface is now rich enough to create good
    interfaces (without the need to resort to ActiveX - urgh!). In the
    past I always thought the web development was lacking a great deal of
    power compared to what I could provide in the thick-client
    environment.

    Looks like my initial tool will need to be Java. Not so much by
    choice (it's an OK sort of language but not something I can really
    love), the existing website that I'll be adding to uses Java Servlets
    and I'll be interfacing to a SQL*Server database for a change.


    Anyway, what I'm trying to say are, in my programming world, things
    are changing.


    Which got me thinking about Ruby, which is currently standing on a
    pedestal beside me, with the label "Glenn's absolute favourite
    language of all time ever". The pedestal, while wobbly, is being held
    firm by a printed copy of Why?'s Poignant Guide and PickAxe2.

    Ruby is clearly a beautiful language, easy to learn, clear to read, OO
    in a nice way (ie. not in the Java way!), and with the right people
    behind it with the right mindset to keep it that way and progress the
    language to the future.


    It would be nice if a big company would get behind Ruby and give it
    the kind of marketing oomph that Java has had. Amazing how such a
    clearly flawed "modern" language like Java can get such widespread
    acceptance when a nice language like Ruby has to almost fight to be
    noticed! Python seems to have caught on in the opensource community,
    yet I've read more than a few python people say they prefer Ruby from
    what they've seen.

    Do we think Ruby will ever "get there" like Python, Perl, even Java?


    I saw mention of some new things being added to the Ruby language.
    AOP (which I had to look up - aspect oriented programming) looks to be
    useful, and a big selling point of Eiffel is design-by-contract,
    something else I've seen suggested as a possible ruby-enhancement.
    What's the situation with these and others? Where can I read about
    current ruby-developments going on? I keep seeing reference to Ruby
    1.9, but the Windows Installer is only at 1.8-14. Is Ruby 1.9 just
    "in development at this stage" and what's scheduled to be in it?


    Now a controversial point. The perl website (www.perl.com) catches my
    eye. So does the Python one (www.python.org). For whatever reason,
    both websites made me go "mmm, this language looks interesting, lets
    investigate further.

    The Ruby one (www.ruby-lang.org) doesn't. Well, not for me. It's not
    a bad website, most of the basic content is there, but so much more
    could be added to it, to sort of collect lots of basic ruby info and
    websites into one specific place, to attract and interest the new
    potential rubyist. And it should be much more eyecatching. Like the
    website should be an HTML venus-flytrap for programmers. Well, that's
    my thought anyway.

    I did say it was a controversial point!


    Another point. I keep seeing mention of "Ruby 2" and "Rite" in the
    same sentence. That Rite is perhaps the new name for Ruby 2? If
    there is a plan to rename Ruby 2 as Rite, (and I'm new remember so I
    might have got my wires crossed) then I think this is a very bad idea.
    Market Ruby so far, then rename it something else? Nah. Silly idea.
    In My Opinion. Stick to Ruby2.


    Other than that, marvellous. All of it. A+ Gold Star to all
    involved.


    And I have NOT been drinking.
    Glenn, Feb 16, 2005
    #1
    1. Advertising

  2. Glenn

    Lyle Johnson Guest

    On Thu, 17 Feb 2005 06:44:51 +0900, Glenn <> wrote:

    > Which got me thinking about Ruby, which is currently standing on a
    > pedestal beside me, with the label "Glenn's absolute favourite
    > language of all time ever". The pedestal, while wobbly, is being held
    > firm by a printed copy of Why?'s Poignant Guide and PickAxe2.


    A quick aside: why's name doesn't need a question mark to prop it up.
    He is a statement, not a question. ;)

    > Do we think Ruby will ever "get there" like Python, Perl, even Java?


    I don't worry about when, or if, Ruby will "get there" out of a sense
    of wounded pride. That is, I don't mind that Ruby isn't yet, or might
    never be, as popular or widely used as the languages that you
    mentioned. The only reason I care about the issue at all is that if
    Ruby were already "there", it would make it easier for me (or you) to
    propose it for projects at work without having to go into a big song
    and dance trying to sell it to management and co-workers. Evangelism
    is not my strong suit.

    > What's the situation with these and others? Where can I read about
    > current ruby-developments going on? I keep seeing reference to Ruby
    > 1.9, but the Windows Installer is only at 1.8-14. Is Ruby 1.9 just
    > "in development at this stage" and what's scheduled to be in it?


    At the 2003 Ruby Conference, Matz spoke about some *possible* plans
    for Ruby 2.0 (nicknamed "Rite"), and Ryan Davis summarized those words
    here:

    http://www.rubygarden.org/ruby?Rite

    My understanding at the time was that Ruby 1.9 was sort-of an
    experimental development branch in which ideas for Rite might be tried
    out; but that focus may have changed. You might do well to hang out on
    the ruby-core mailing list to see what's being discussed there.

    > Now a controversial point. The perl website (www.perl.com) catches my
    > eye. So does the Python one (www.python.org). For whatever reason,
    > both websites made me go "mmm, this language looks interesting, lets
    > investigate further.
    >
    > The Ruby one (www.ruby-lang.org) doesn't....
    >
    > I did say it was a controversial point!


    Not a controversial point; in fact, it's been discussed pretty
    recently. It seems like why (there he is again) mocked-up a new Ruby
    home page but I'm not sure where things stand with that. But I think
    there was general consensus that the home page needs some help to
    better direct people towards the most helpful resources.

    > Another point. I keep seeing mention of "Ruby 2" and "Rite" in the
    > same sentence. That Rite is perhaps the new name for Ruby 2?


    Yes. Well, a code name anyways.

    > If there is a plan to rename Ruby 2 as Rite, (and I'm new remember so I
    > might have got my wires crossed) then I think this is a very bad idea.


    I may have my wires crossed too, but I don't think the intent is to
    change the "official" name of the language from Ruby to Rite. But I
    was wrong once, before.
    Lyle Johnson, Feb 16, 2005
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. > The Ruby one (www.ruby-lang.org) doesn't.

    It is having the "Merry Christmas" message up in February that does it
    for me... you're not the first person to comment about the sites, I
    heard some talk about getting a ruby.something domain which could be a
    step in the right direction. Not sure what happened there. I'm not
    sure how to lend a hand on the main Ruby site, the attitude seems to
    be "if you don't like it, go make your own site"...

    > Another point. I keep seeing mention of "Ruby 2" and "Rite" in the
    > same sentence. That Rite is perhaps the new name for Ruby 2?


    A quick google:
    http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:93JvJXPAbgAJ:www.ntecs.de/blog/Tech/Programming rite ruby2&hl=en

    That says 06 Apr 04 on it, there are probably more current details
    somewhere else... It would be nice if information like this was posted
    to ruby-lang, it might help ease uncertainty about the state and
    future of Ruby.

    Merry Christmas,
    Douglas
    Douglas Livingstone, Feb 16, 2005
    #3
  4. Glenn

    Ben Giddings Guest

    Glenn wrote:
    > Now a controversial point. The perl website (www.perl.com) catches my
    > eye. So does the Python one (www.python.org). For whatever reason,
    > both websites made me go "mmm, this language looks interesting, lets
    > investigate further.
    >
    > The Ruby one (www.ruby-lang.org) doesn't. Well, not for me. It's not
    > a bad website, most of the basic content is there, but so much more
    > could be added to it, to sort of collect lots of basic ruby info and
    > websites into one specific place, to attract and interest the new
    > potential rubyist. And it should be much more eyecatching. Like the
    > website should be an HTML venus-flytrap for programmers. Well, that's
    > my thought anyway.
    >
    > I did say it was a controversial point!


    Ooh goody! My favourite subject comes up again!

    You also forgot the PHP site, parts of the Java site and a few others.
    Really, Ruby's is severely lacking in the "draw you in and make you buy
    a new car you don't really need" category. It's great for a "as spare
    time allows" hobbyist site, but it could look oh so much better.

    I loved why_'s mockup, as did many others, but the dangling participle
    that ended that last discussion is "is anybody who can do anything about
    the ruby-web-presence-situation listening?"

    So...

    Is anybody who can do anything about the ruby-web-presence-situation
    listening?

    If so, here's what I think we should do:

    Step 1:
    Find all the broken links, and outdated pages on ruby-lang.org and get
    rid of them

    Step 2:
    Make sure that all the essentials are on the ruby-lang.org site, so
    newbies don't get confused (core api docs, stdlib docs, interfacing with
    C docs, "how to submit a bug", all those other things I brought up earlier)

    Step 3:
    Prettify!

    I think Step 1 would be easy. We'd just have to have a few volunteers
    get together and go over the site, page by page, and flag the pages and
    links that need to either be updated or deleted. Easy. Then someone
    would have to make those changes, not as easy, but if the people doing
    the search also edited the pages so they were up to date, it shoudln't
    be too hard.

    Step 2 would be a bit harder, but not too much. I think most of that
    info exists out there somewhere, it woudld just be a matter of
    consolidating it on the ruby-lang.org domain, and linking it in in the
    right place.

    Step 3 is more difficult, but I think worth doing in the long run.

    So...

    I'll be happy to start looking for broken links and outdated pages, if I
    know that when I'm done someone can fix the things I find.

    Ben
    Ben Giddings, Feb 16, 2005
    #4
  5. * Glenn (Feb 17, 2005 01:50):
    > Now a controversial point. The perl website (www.perl.com) catches my
    > eye.


    Really?

    > So does the Python one (www.python.org).


    Again, really?

    > For whatever reason, both websites made me go "mmm, this language
    > looks interesting, lets investigate further.


    > The Ruby one (www.ruby-lang.org) doesn't. Well, not for me. It's not
    > a bad website, most of the basic content is there, but so much more
    > could be added to it, to sort of collect lots of basic ruby info and
    > websites into one specific place, to attract and interest the new
    > potential rubyist. And it should be much more eyecatching. Like the
    > website should be an HTML venus-flytrap for programmers. Well, that's
    > my thought anyway.


    > I did say it was a controversial point!


    You bet! I think Ruby's web page is a lot more compelling than either
    Python's or Perl's,
    nikolai

    --
    ::: name: Nikolai Weibull :: aliases: pcp / lone-star / aka :::
    ::: born: Chicago, IL USA :: loc atm: Gothenburg, Sweden :::
    ::: page: www.pcppopper.org :: fun atm: gf,lps,ruby,lisp,war3 :::
    main(){printf(&linux["\021%six\012\0"],(linux)["have"]+"fun"-97);}
    Nikolai Weibull, Feb 17, 2005
    #5
  6. Glenn

    Guest

    * Lyle Johnson <> [2005-02-17 07:08:21 +0900]:

    > > If there is a plan to rename Ruby 2 as Rite, (and I'm new remember so I
    > > might have got my wires crossed) then I think this is a very bad idea.

    >
    > I may have my wires crossed too, but I don't think the intent is to
    > change the "official" name of the language from Ruby to Rite. But I
    > was wrong once, before.


    As I understand it, Rite is the name of the VM, and Ruby (or Ruby2)
    is the name of the language. Personally, I think that it will need
    a new name (such as ruby2), since I will want ruby and ruby2 code
    to coexist on the same machine.

    --
    Jim Freeze
    Code Red. Code Ruby
    , Feb 17, 2005
    #6
  7. On Feb 16, 2005, at 5:40 PM, Ben Giddings wrote:

    > So...
    >
    > Is anybody who can do anything about the ruby-web-presence-situation
    > listening?
    >
    > If so, here's what I think we should do:
    >
    > Step 1:
    > Find all the broken links, and outdated pages on ruby-lang.org and get
    > rid of them
    >
    > Step 2:
    > Make sure that all the essentials are on the ruby-lang.org site, so
    > newbies don't get confused (core api docs, stdlib docs, interfacing
    > with C docs, "how to submit a bug", all those other things I brought
    > up earlier)
    >
    > Step 3:
    > Prettify!


    Who (aside from matz?) has access to ruby-lang.org? Good question. I'd
    happily contribute time and effort to it, but the magic "how?" is in
    the way. I suspect many others feel similarly.

    -Brian
    Brian McCallister, Feb 17, 2005
    #7
  8. Hi,

    In message "Re: Where is Ruby headed etc."
    on Thu, 17 Feb 2005 12:29:13 +0900, Brian McCallister <> writes:

    |Who (aside from matz?) has access to ruby-lang.org? Good question. I'd
    |happily contribute time and effort to it, but the magic "how?" is in
    |the way. I suspect many others feel similarly.

    David Alan Black and others have article subscription account. They
    don't have root privilege to overhaul the web site itself (for
    example, moving from tDiary to other CMS) though.

    We, <> whose members happen to be all Japanese,
    are responsible for the grand system design. So, the plan should be:

    * form a team to design the appearance
    * form another team to choose the CMS
    * create prototype on that CMS
    * www-admin would replace www.ruby-lang.org

    I think people behind www-admin (not only me, who does little work for
    site design) should be invited for both teams.

    matz.
    Yukihiro Matsumoto, Feb 17, 2005
    #8
  9. Glenn

    Guest

    First, you are quite right, Lyle. I should not have "questioned" Why.
    Sorry Mr. Why.

    Second, I'm pleased my controversy is a common feeling. I was worried
    I'd suddenly be surrounded by hundreds of rubyests all holding objects
    subclassed from "AWeaponOfGreatDanger", all wishing to pass me the
    message "DieYouLowLifeScum".

    Nikolai, it appears that you are standing on one side of a huge sports
    pitch but are alone, whereas the other team stands at the other end of
    the pitch, and has many players. But this is a friendly match, so it's
    OK! :eek:)

    Now to be serious for a second. For a point about what should be on
    the main ruby website, I think it should be much easier to download the
    latest release of Ruby. For the Windows version (and there are two,
    which might confuse some) you seem to have to go through several web
    pages to get to the right version. Much as you might (or might not)
    dislike Windows, many many people use it and I'd say it was important
    for there to be a one-click download for the latest "installer"
    version, in a prominant position on the front page of the Ruby website.
    I would also agree that this should also be the case for other popular
    OS's - Linux/Mac/etc. with clear instructions as to how to get it for
    other OS's.

    A collection of information joining all the other ruby-resources would
    also be very important. Clear links to things like Why's guide,
    ruby-garden website, info about ruby-talk, this comp.lang.ruby, and so
    on. Plus a regularly updated "News" section, what's happened in the
    ruby-development world this week/month, and so on.

    And a nice big attractive front-page, with a big red RUBY picture next
    to the word RUBY. Make it pretty.

    G
    , Feb 17, 2005
    #9
  10. Glenn

    Guest

    * <> [2005-02-17 17:59:54 +0900]:

    > First, you are quite right, Lyle. I should not have "questioned" Why.
    > Sorry Mr. Why.
    >
    > Second, I'm pleased my controversy is a common feeling. I was worried
    > I'd suddenly be surrounded by hundreds of rubyests all holding objects
    > subclassed from "AWeaponOfGreatDanger", all wishing to pass me the
    > message "DieYouLowLifeScum".


    I believe that should be:

    #die_you_low_life_scum

    :)


    --
    Jim Freeze
    Code Red. Code Ruby
    , Feb 17, 2005
    #10
  11. Glenn

    Curt Hibbs Guest

    Yukihiro Matsumoto wrote:
    >
    > We, <> whose members happen to be all Japanese,
    > are responsible for the grand system design. So, the plan should be:
    >
    > * form a team to design the appearance
    > * form another team to choose the CMS
    > * create prototype on that CMS
    > * www-admin would replace www.ruby-lang.org
    >
    > I think people behind www-admin (not only me, who does little work for
    > site design) should be invited for both teams.


    This is great Matz!

    I'm really glad to hear that you guys are moving on this. I assume you will
    be sending out private invitations to people who can contribute to the
    design team -- not me, I not all that good with design, but I sure you know
    who all the right people are.

    Curt
    Curt Hibbs, Feb 17, 2005
    #11
  12. * (Feb 17, 2005 13:36):
    > Nikolai, it appears that you are standing on one side of a huge sports
    > pitch but are alone, whereas the other team stands at the other end of
    > the pitch, and has many players. But this is a friendly match, so
    > it's OK! :eek:)


    It seems I often do...,
    nikolai

    --
    ::: name: Nikolai Weibull :: aliases: pcp / lone-star / aka :::
    ::: born: Chicago, IL USA :: loc atm: Gothenburg, Sweden :::
    ::: page: www.pcppopper.org :: fun atm: gf,lps,ruby,lisp,war3 :::
    main(){printf(&linux["\021%six\012\0"],(linux)["have"]+"fun"-97);}
    Nikolai Weibull, Feb 17, 2005
    #12
  13. Yukihiro Matsumoto wrote:
    > We, <> whose members happen to be all Japanese,
    > are responsible for the grand system design. So, the plan should be:
    >
    > * form a team to design the appearance
    > * form another team to choose the CMS
    > * create prototype on that CMS
    > * www-admin would replace www.ruby-lang.org
    >
    > I think people behind www-admin (not only me, who does little work for
    > site design) should be invited for both teams.


    The people who did the Ruby on Rails (http://www.rubyonrails.com/) site
    did a very professional job. It's an open-source project that actually
    looks professional and aesthetically pleasing without being glossy,
    which is a rare combination.

    I believe the Rails site is powered by a combination of static pages
    (the front page, download page, etc.), an Instiki wiki (for the
    documentation), WordPress (the blog) and Trac (bug tracker, etc.).

    Alexander.
    Alexander Staubo, Feb 17, 2005
    #13
  14. Glenn

    Guest

    I agree, that ruby-on-rails site is pretty!
    , Feb 17, 2005
    #14
  15. Glenn

    Ben Giddings Guest

    On Feb 16, 2005, at 23:47, Yukihiro Matsumoto wrote:
    > We, <> whose members happen to be all Japanese,
    > are responsible for the grand system design. So, the plan should be:
    >
    > * form a team to design the appearance
    > * form another team to choose the CMS
    > * create prototype on that CMS
    > * www-admin would replace www.ruby-lang.org
    >
    > I think people behind www-admin (not only me, who does little work for
    > site design) should be invited for both teams.


    That sounds like a perfect approach to me.

    In the mean time, if we want to fix broken links, outdated pages, or
    add things, like documentation to the website, should we just email
    www-admin? If so, maybe it's better if we send fixes/updates in one
    combined email, so that there's less work on the other side.

    If so, I'll volunteer to be on the team that tries to update or fix up
    the current site.

    Ben
    Ben Giddings, Feb 17, 2005
    #15
  16. Hi,

    In message "Re: Where is Ruby headed etc."
    on Thu, 17 Feb 2005 23:42:46 +0900, Ben Giddings <> writes:

    |On Feb 16, 2005, at 23:47, Yukihiro Matsumoto wrote:
    |> We, <> whose members happen to be all Japanese,
    |> are responsible for the grand system design. So, the plan should be:
    |>
    |> * form a team to design the appearance
    |> * form another team to choose the CMS
    |> * create prototype on that CMS
    |> * www-admin would replace www.ruby-lang.org
    |>
    |> I think people behind www-admin (not only me, who does little work for
    |> site design) should be invited for both teams.
    |
    |That sounds like a perfect approach to me.

    Would some one raise his hand to form the team? It would be setting
    up mailing list somewhere for each team.

    |In the mean time, if we want to fix broken links, outdated pages, or
    |add things, like documentation to the website, should we just email
    |www-admin? If so, maybe it's better if we send fixes/updates in one
    |combined email, so that there's less work on the other side.

    Yes, unless dblack says otherwise. Or, recruiting more English
    speaking article submitters might be a better idea.

    matz.
    Yukihiro Matsumoto, Feb 17, 2005
    #16
  17. On Fri, 18 Feb 2005 00:00:27 +0900, Yukihiro Matsumoto
    <> wrote:
    > |> * form a team to design the appearance
    > |> * form another team to choose the CMS
    > |> * create prototype on that CMS
    > |> * www-admin would replace www.ruby-lang.org
    > Would some one raise his hand to form the team? It would be setting
    > up mailing list somewhere for each team.


    I would be happy to be involved in this, Matz. I can have web space
    and mailing list space set up pretty quickly after this weekend, and
    can spur the discussion along if not contribute a lot myself because
    of my current heavy workload. This is something that needs to happen,
    hopefully in time with the release of Ruby 1.8.3 scheduled for this
    spring.

    -austin
    --
    Austin Ziegler *
    * Alternate:
    Austin Ziegler, Feb 17, 2005
    #17
  18. Glenn

    Ben Giddings Guest

    Austin Ziegler wrote:
    > I would be happy to be involved in this, Matz. I can have web space
    > and mailing list space set up pretty quickly after this weekend, and
    > can spur the discussion along if not contribute a lot myself because
    > of my current heavy workload. This is something that needs to happen,
    > hopefully in time with the release of Ruby 1.8.3 scheduled for this
    > spring.


    Hey Austin,

    Curt Hibbs is setting up a rubyforge project to help coordinate things.
    Apparently that will provide a mailing list, wiki and files area
    automagically. I think Curt is going to post once he has things all set
    up. Watch that space, and sign on!

    Ben
    Ben Giddings, Feb 17, 2005
    #18
  19. Glenn

    Curt Hibbs Guest

    Ben Giddings wrote:
    >
    > Austin Ziegler wrote:
    > > I would be happy to be involved in this, Matz. I can have web space
    > > and mailing list space set up pretty quickly after this weekend, and
    > > can spur the discussion along if not contribute a lot myself because
    > > of my current heavy workload. This is something that needs to happen,
    > > hopefully in time with the release of Ruby 1.8.3 scheduled for this
    > > spring.

    >
    > Hey Austin,
    >
    > Curt Hibbs is setting up a rubyforge project to help coordinate things.
    > Apparently that will provide a mailing list, wiki and files area
    > automagically. I think Curt is going to post once he has things all set
    > up. Watch that space, and sign on!


    Yes, its in progress. I'm waiting for the mailing list to be created. Will
    post info soon.

    Curt
    Curt Hibbs, Feb 17, 2005
    #19
  20. Glenn

    John W. Long Guest

    Yukihiro Matsumoto wrote:
    > |> * form a team to design the appearance


    I'm raising my hand at least in part to help form a cohessive design team.

    --
    John Long
    http://wiseheartdesign.com
    John W. Long, Feb 17, 2005
    #20
    1. Advertising

Want to reply to this thread or ask your own question?

It takes just 2 minutes to sign up (and it's free!). Just click the sign up button to choose a username and then you can ask your own questions on the forum.
Similar Threads
  1. Robin Cull
    Replies:
    5
    Views:
    391
    Andrew Dalke
    Jul 31, 2003
  2. Daniel Joyce

    Python Audio (Alpy, Fastaudio, Etc Etc)

    Daniel Joyce, Sep 16, 2003, in forum: Python
    Replies:
    1
    Views:
    904
    Markus Wankus
    Sep 16, 2003
  3. Marco Herrn
    Replies:
    7
    Views:
    621
    Ng Pheng Siong
    Apr 9, 2004
  4. rodmc
    Replies:
    2
    Views:
    370
    Max Erickson
    Jan 3, 2006
  5. Kevin Walzer

    Re: PIL (etc etc etc) on OS X

    Kevin Walzer, Aug 1, 2008, in forum: Python
    Replies:
    4
    Views:
    369
    Fredrik Lundh
    Aug 13, 2008
Loading...

Share This Page