Which JVM to use under Windows?

Discussion in 'Java' started by Almond, Aug 23, 2007.

  1. Almond

    Almond Guest

    I have heard some different opinions and which JVM to use.
    First of all, can anyone tell me where to find JVM?
    I spent nearly half an hour on Java site but could not find it.

    My code does not require anything higher than jdk 1.3
    and uses AWT only.

    Is there any reason to get "the latest and gratest?
    in this case?

    Some say that Microsoft's JVM is not as secure.

    Does anyone have any opinions on which JVM to use?

    Thanks

    --

    Get yourself the most powerful tool for usenet you ever heard of.

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    Web page:
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    Note: You need to have JVM (Java Virtual Machine)
    installed. Otherwise, the program won't run on some versions
    of Windows. Just try to run the program and if you see the
    main window, it means you do have it installed already.

    Otherwise, a quick search on the Internet will find it
    easily. The file size should be around 5 megs.

    JVM is available in Microsoft or Sun (original creator
    of Java language) versions.

    You can visit sun.com to get it.

    Or, you can try this one for starters:

    http://www.java-virtual-machine.net/download.html

    It should have links to sites that have it, I believe.
     
    Almond, Aug 23, 2007
    #1
    1. Advertising

  2. Almond

    Lew Guest

    Almond wrote:
    > I have heard some different opinions and which JVM to use.
    > First of all, can anyone tell me where to find JVM?
    > I spent nearly half an hour on Java site but could not find it.
    >
    > My code does not require anything higher than jdk 1.3
    > and uses AWT only.
    >
    > Is there any reason to get "the latest and gratest?
    > in this case?
    >
    > Some say that Microsoft's JVM is not as secure.
    >
    > Does anyone have any opinions on which JVM to use?


    Use the latest from Sun. Microsoft does not have a JVM.

    Version 1.3 is obsolete. This is fact, not opinion. Don't use it.

    Version 1.4 will be obsolete in a few months. Again, this is fact. You
    shouldn't use it.

    Version 5 (a.k.a. 1.5) is usable. It's been out a couple of years already.

    Version 6 is current.

    http://java.sun.com

    As of this writing it's down for maintenance, but I figure it'll be back
    before long.

    --
    Lew
     
    Lew, Aug 23, 2007
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. Almond

    Almond Guest

    In article <>, Lew <> wrote:
    >Almond wrote:
    >> I have heard some different opinions and which JVM to use.
    >> First of all, can anyone tell me where to find JVM?
    >> I spent nearly half an hour on Java site but could not find it.
    >>
    >> My code does not require anything higher than jdk 1.3
    >> and uses AWT only.
    >>
    >> Is there any reason to get "the latest and gratest?
    >> in this case?
    >>
    >> Some say that Microsoft's JVM is not as secure.
    >>
    >> Does anyone have any opinions on which JVM to use?

    >
    >Use the latest from Sun. Microsoft does not have a JVM.
    >
    >Version 1.3 is obsolete. This is fact, not opinion. Don't use it.
    >
    >Version 1.4 will be obsolete in a few months. Again, this is fact. You
    >shouldn't use it.
    >
    >Version 5 (a.k.a. 1.5) is usable. It's been out a couple of years already.
    >
    >Version 6 is current.
    >
    >http://java.sun.com
    >
    >As of this writing it's down for maintenance, but I figure it'll be back
    >before long.


    Thanks Lew. I have version 5, i believe.
    Do you happen to know that file name of JVM for windows
    in that package? (I have to find it in my archives.
    Lost one of my drives)

    Thanks again.

    Btw, how's life?



    --

    Get yourself the most powerful tool for usenet you ever heard of.

    NewsMaestro download page:
    http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=203356

    Web page:
    http://tarkus01.by.ru/

    Note: You need to have JVM (Java Virtual Machine)
    installed. Otherwise, the program won't run on some versions
    of Windows. Just try to run the program and if you see the
    main window, it means you do have it installed already.

    Otherwise, a quick search on the Internet will find it
    easily. The file size should be around 5 megs.

    JVM is available in Microsoft or Sun (original creator
    of Java language) versions.

    You can visit sun.com to get it.

    Or, you can try this one for starters:

    http://www.java-virtual-machine.net/download.html

    It should have links to sites that have it, I believe.
     
    Almond, Aug 23, 2007
    #3
  4. Almond wrote:
    > I have heard some different opinions and which JVM to use.
    > First of all, can anyone tell me where to find JVM?
    > I spent nearly half an hour on Java site but could not find it.
    >
    > My code does not require anything higher than jdk 1.3
    > and uses AWT only.
    >
    > Is there any reason to get "the latest and gratest?
    > in this case?
    >
    > Some say that Microsoft's JVM is not as secure.
    >
    > Does anyone have any opinions on which JVM to use?


    Newer JVM => more features *and* better performance.

    Good reason to get the newest.

    MS's JVM is version 1.1 and completely obsolete.

    If you run J2EE application servers you may consider
    IBM or BEA JVM's.

    But for desktop usage always go for SUN's JVM.

    Arne
     
    =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?=, Aug 23, 2007
    #4
  5. Almond

    Lew Guest

    Almond wrote:
    > I have version 5, i believe.
    > Do you happen to know that file name of JVM for windows
    > in that package? (I have to find it in my archives.
    > Lost one of my drives)


    "java"

    Or more precisely for Windows, "java.exe".

    Let's say you installed your JDK to "C:\java\jdk\".

    It's a good idea to define an environment variable
    JAVA_HOME
    (all upper case)
    set to that directory:

    JAVA_HOME=C:\java\jdk\

    (Control Panel, System, somewhere on that dialog)

    Then your Java-related executables will be in

    %JAVA_HOME%\bin\

    (In UNIX terms, ${JAVA_HOME}/bin/ )

    Or, alternatively given the example,

    C:\java\jdk\bin\

    The JDK (Java Development Kit) includes a copy of the JRE (Java Runtime
    Environment), which is a subset of the JDK - the part clients use, not
    developers. It would be rooted in

    %JAVA_HOME%\jre\

    and has its own bin\ subdirectory.

    By the way, what's with having /War and Peace/ in your sig?

    --
    Lew
     
    Lew, Aug 23, 2007
    #5
  6. Almond wrote:

    > I have heard some different opinions and which JVM to use.
    > First of all, can anyone tell me where to find JVM?
    > I spent nearly half an hour on Java site but could not find it.
    >
    > My code does not require anything higher than jdk 1.3
    > and uses AWT only.
    >
    > Is there any reason to get "the latest and gratest?
    > in this case?


    Usually depends on what you want to achieve. Normally I stick with a version
    that is one step smaller. Reasoning is that I get lot less headaches when
    things don't work because there's lot of resources to look up when i have
    problem at that specific point in time.

    > Some say that Microsoft's JVM is not as secure.


    I'd recommend you to stay away from MS JVM. Not because it's M$ but because
    it's way too old and doesn't support new features of Java specification
    (i.e., version 1.4+)

    > Does anyone have any opinions on which JVM to use?


    Go for Sun JRE/JDK.


    --
    Cheers,
    Ishwor Gurung
    /* humpty dumpty */
     
    Ishwor Gurung, Aug 23, 2007
    #6
  7. Almond

    Roedy Green Guest

    On Thu, 23 Aug 2007 00:51:13 GMT, (Almond) wrote,
    quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said :

    >I have heard some different opinions and which JVM to use.
    >First of all, can anyone tell me where to find JVM?
    >I spent nearly half an hour on Java site but could not find it.


    See http://mindprod.com/jgloss/installingjava.html
    --
    Roedy Green Canadian Mind Products
    The Java Glossary
    http://mindprod.com
     
    Roedy Green, Aug 23, 2007
    #7
  8. Almond

    Lew Guest

    Almond wrote:
    >> Is there any reason to get "the latest and gratest?
    >> in this case?


    Ishwor Gurung wrote:

    > Usually depends on what you want to achieve. Normally I stick with a version
    > that is one step smaller. Reasoning is that I get lot less headaches when
    > things don't work because there's lot of resources to look up when i have
    > problem at that specific point in time.


    Not really a problem with the Sun JVMs. Stick with the current version (Java
    6 as of this writing).

    >> Some say that Microsoft's JVM is not as secure.


    > I'd recommend you to stay away from MS JVM. Not because it's M$ but because
    > it's way too old and doesn't support new features of Java specification
    > (i.e., version 1.4+)


    I recommend you not call it a JVM. Didn't MS lose a lawsuit brought by Sun
    because MS "Java" wasn't?

    And 1.4? Java 1.4 is entering its "end-of-life" phase - it is in hospice with
    only months left.

    --
    Lew
     
    Lew, Aug 23, 2007
    #8
  9. Lew wrote:
    >Almond wrote:
    >>> Is there any reason to get "the latest and gratest?
    >>> in this case?


    Many people have stressed the benefits of using the
    latest production JDK to develop with. I agree with that
    basic advice, but I recall you said earlier you were
    developing for 1.3+.

    If you are writing code intended to be run on an earlier
    JVM, it is important to use the -bootclasspath (as well
    as the other cross-compilation options) to ensure the
    code is compatible with any earlier VM (even 1.5).

    The -bootclasspath is significant to mention, in that
    it requires you to have the runtime jar of that Java
    version available to compile codes against.

    The point that I am getting to is that while it is
    best to develop with the latest JDK, it is also necessary
    to have *access* to the version of JRE (or JDK) that
    is the minimum that the code targets.

    >> Usually depends on what you want to achieve. Normally I stick with a version
    >> that is one step smaller.


    I compile some code for 1.1 (legacy test applets,
    designed to inform the unfortunate end user that
    "The insecure, unsupported, obsolete MSVM must
    be replaced to (do the interesting thing they came
    to the page for) - also you might want to get rid of it,
    just to protect your PC.", 1.3 (the introduction of
    Java Sound into the J2SE), 1.4 when Swing actually
    became stable enough to be widely useful, 1.5 (most
    users) and 1.6 (just can't wait to have that, ..., and if
    you want to it, get yourself the latest VM).

    >Not really a problem with the Sun JVMs. Stick with the current version (Java
    >6 as of this writing).
    >
    >>> Some say that Microsoft's JVM is not as secure.


    I would. The 3810 build of the MSVM ('Java' 1.1.4)
    will happily show the root path of the JRE in an
    untrusted applet. The Symantec 1.1.5 JRE will
    not, nor will any Sun JRE.

    That is the only 'security difference' that I have noticed
    between the 3810 (the safest ever of the MSVM variants)
    and other JRE's, but then, I did not go purposefully looking,
    that is just one thing I noticed.

    >> I'd recommend you to stay away from MS JVM. Not because it's M$ but because
    >> it's way too old and doesn't support new features of Java specification
    >> (i.e., version 1.4+)

    >
    >I recommend you not call it a JVM. Didn't MS lose a lawsuit brought by Sun
    >because MS "Java" wasn't?


    IANAL, but 'yes'. I refer to it simply as the MSVM.

    >And 1.4? Java 1.4 is entering its "end-of-life" phase - it is in hospice with
    >only months left.


    yeah.. (shrugs) but given an app. that can easily*
    be coded to support 1.4, will also support 1.5 or
    1.6, why would you bother?

    Lew, if the difference between releasing a 1.4 app.,
    and a 1.5 app., were 10 lines of code, and a
    compilation option, would you *still* recommend
    releasing an app. intended for 'home users' as being
    '1.5+'? (..just curious, really)

    * This could be a huge issue, of course, if a later
    Java version provides a core functionality of the
    app..

    --
    Andrew Thompson
    http://www.athompson.info/andrew/

    Message posted via http://www.javakb.com
     
    Andrew Thompson, Aug 23, 2007
    #9
  10. Almond

    Lew Guest

    Lew wrote:
    >> And 1.4? Java 1.4 is entering its "end-of-life" phase - it is in hospice with
    >> only months left.


    Andrew Thompson wrote:
    > yeah.. (shrugs) but given an app. that can easily*
    > be coded to support 1.4, will also support 1.5 or
    > 1.6, why would you bother?
    >
    > Lew, if the difference between releasing a 1.4 app.,
    > and a 1.5 app., were 10 lines of code, and a
    > compilation option, would you *still* recommend
    > releasing an app. intended for 'home users' as being
    > '1.5+'? (..just curious, really)


    I recommend using Java 6 wherever feasible. The definition of "feasible" is
    situational. I develop for 1.4 at work.

    Home users have no reason to stay at an old version of Java. I would
    definitely recommend to the home users that they upgrade.

    As a developer, I find the differences between 1.4 and 5 to be significant -
    huge, really. I hate having to go back to 1.4. If there's any way to
    baseline at Java 5+, I insist on it.

    Java has to have the slowest adoption curve of any community. Java 5 is two
    and a half years old already, hardly a spring chicken in IT terms. Are people
    still playing the same video games introduced for Xmas of '04? Much less '02,
    when 1.4 came out?

    If a home user has Java at all, why would they use a five-year-old version?
    Wouldn't it be straightforward for them to upgrade to at /least/ 5?

    At least the enterprise folks can manufacture an excuse - though oddly many of
    them are going ahead with last year's MS Office Suite and this year's .NET
    framework while moaning that it's too soon to upgrade from '02's (or even
    '00's) version of Java.

    --
    Lew
     
    Lew, Aug 23, 2007
    #10
  11. Lew wrote:
    >Lew wrote:
    >>> And 1.4? Java 1.4 is entering its "end-of-life" phase - it is in hospice with
    >>> only months left.

    >
    >> yeah.. (shrugs) but given an app. that can easily*
    >> be coded to support 1.4,

    ...
    (would you) <sorry for poor trimming here..>
    >> releasing an app. intended for 'home users' as being
    >> '1.5+'? (..just curious, really)

    >
    >I recommend using Java 6 wherever feasible. The definition of "feasible" is
    >situational. I develop for 1.4 at work.


    Aha! "Got ya'" OK no, I have not, but it gives me
    some (perverse sort of) satisfation to hear you say
    that (note to self - must take brain medication).

    ...
    >As a developer, I find the differences between 1.4 and 5 to be significant -
    >huge, really.


    Yeah, I thought you might bring that up. Even
    as I was clicking the 'post' button I was thinking
    that my hypothetical '10 lines' was a pretty
    arbitrary and unrealistic figure.

    But then, that's the beauty of posting hypothetical
    questions. Setting the conditions as arbitrarily as
    I please. ;-)

    >..I hate having to go back to 1.4. If there's any way to
    >baseline at Java 5+, I insist on it.


    (whispers) I was hanging back on 1.5, I still had too
    large a user base of 1.4 to really bother thinking about
    it, but now I am looking more to the funky aspects of
    1.6, and 1.7 looks to offer hooks into native media
    players *at* *last*, so I've flipped from hanging back
    on 1.5, to looking forward to pushing 1.7!

    Go figure..

    --
    Andrew Thompson
    http://www.athompson.info/andrew/

    Message posted via JavaKB.com
    http://www.javakb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/java-general/200708/1
     
    Andrew Thompson, Aug 23, 2007
    #11
  12. Lew wrote:

    > Java has to have the slowest adoption curve of any community.


    You've clearly never worked in the mainframe world :)
     
    Mike Schilling, Aug 23, 2007
    #12
  13. Almond

    Lew Guest

    Mike Schilling wrote:
    > Lew wrote:
    >
    >> Java has to have the slowest adoption curve of any community.

    >
    > You've clearly never worked in the mainframe world :)


    Actually, I have. And do. But even mainframers patch their systems - how old
    is your version of z/OS? How recent is your CICS package? Dollars to donuts
    it's newer than five years old, much less seven.

    --
    Lew
     
    Lew, Aug 23, 2007
    #13
  14. "Lew" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Mike Schilling wrote:
    >> Lew wrote:
    >>
    >>> Java has to have the slowest adoption curve of any community.

    >>
    >> You've clearly never worked in the mainframe world :)

    >
    > Actually, I have. And do. But even mainframers patch their systems - how
    > old is your version of z/OS? How recent is your CICS package? Dollars to
    > donuts it's newer than five years old, much less seven.


    I haven't been involved in that arena for years. My experience was as an
    ISV learning how many different versions of MVS we'd have to support,
    because it was such an effort for huge mission-critical data centers to test
    all of their aplications in order to upgrade that often wouldn't bother to.
    And that some were running custom-patched versions that basically couldn't
    be upgraded.
     
    Mike Schilling, Aug 23, 2007
    #14
  15. Almond is the NewsMaestro Spammer

    On Aug 23, 3:17 am, (Almond) wrote:
    >
    > Get yourself the most powerful tool for usenet you ever heard of.
    >
    > NewsMaestro download page:http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=203356


    So you are the NewsMaestro spammer who spammed this and 200 other
    newsgroups with NewsMaestro advertising

    Please go away.
     
    Hunter Gratzner, Aug 23, 2007
    #15
  16. Almond

    Almond Guest

    In article <77203e2e3162e@uwe>, "Andrew Thompson" <u32984@uwe> wrote:
    >Lew wrote:
    >>Almond wrote:
    >>>> Is there any reason to get "the latest and gratest?
    >>>> in this case?

    >
    >Many people have stressed the benefits of using the
    >latest production JDK to develop with. I agree with that
    >basic advice, but I recall you said earlier you were
    >developing for 1.3+.
    >
    >If you are writing code intended to be run on an earlier
    >JVM, it is important to use the -bootclasspath (as well
    >as the other cross-compilation options) to ensure the
    >code is compatible with any earlier VM (even 1.5).
    >
    >The -bootclasspath is significant to mention, in that
    >it requires you to have the runtime jar of that Java
    >version available to compile codes against.
    >
    >The point that I am getting to is that while it is
    >best to develop with the latest JDK, it is also necessary
    >to have *access* to the version of JRE (or JDK) that
    >is the minimum that the code targets.
    >
    >>> Usually depends on what you want to achieve. Normally I stick with a version
    >>> that is one step smaller.

    >
    >I compile some code for 1.1 (legacy test applets,
    >designed to inform the unfortunate end user that
    >"The insecure, unsupported, obsolete MSVM must
    >be replaced to (do the interesting thing they came
    >to the page for) - also you might want to get rid of it,
    >just to protect your PC.",



    >1.3 (the introduction of
    >Java Sound into the J2SE), 1.4 when Swing actually
    >became stable enough to be widely useful, 1.5 (most
    >users) and 1.6 (just can't wait to have that, ..., and if
    >you want to it, get yourself the latest VM).
    >
    >>Not really a problem with the Sun JVMs. Stick with the current version (Java
    >>6 as of this writing).
    >>
    >>>> Some say that Microsoft's JVM is not as secure.

    >
    >I would. The 3810 build of the MSVM ('Java' 1.1.4)
    >will happily show the root path of the JRE in an
    >untrusted applet. The Symantec 1.1.5 JRE will
    >not, nor will any Sun JRE.


    I am talking about Windows environment at the moment.

    Do you happen to know which exact file is the JVM
    for Windows? (I have downloaded jdk 6 as of february 2007.
    File jdk-6-windows-i586.exe).
    Do you happen to know if it has JVM?
    Sorry, but there is just too many things that are goning
    on at the moment, and I find it a pain on the neck to find
    things as released by Sun. I even spent nearly half an hour
    last night trying to find the JVM for Windows on Sun's site
    with no luck.

    Do you happen to know the exact link to it?

    I am running Windows XP SP2. Do not recall what I had to do
    to install JVM or it was already provided. I lost my main
    drive with several partions that had all these things.
    Need to dig up from backups.

    >That is the only 'security difference' that I have noticed
    >between the 3810 (the safest ever of the MSVM variants)
    >and other JRE's, but then, I did not go purposefully looking,
    >that is just one thing I noticed.
    >
    >>> I'd recommend you to stay away from MS JVM. Not because it's M$ but because
    >>> it's way too old and doesn't support new features of Java specification
    >>> (i.e., version 1.4+)

    >>
    >>I recommend you not call it a JVM. Didn't MS lose a lawsuit brought by Sun
    >>because MS "Java" wasn't?

    >
    >IANAL, but 'yes'. I refer to it simply as the MSVM.
    >
    >>And 1.4? Java 1.4 is entering its "end-of-life" phase - it is in hospice with

    >
    >>only months left.


    Well, the target platform is Windows at the moment.
    We have to live with what we have.

    >yeah.. (shrugs) but given an app. that can easily*
    >be coded to support 1.4, will also support 1.5 or
    >1.6, why would you bother?


    >Lew, if the difference between releasing a 1.4 app.,
    >and a 1.5 app., were 10 lines of code, and a
    >compilation option, would you *still* recommend
    >releasing an app. intended for 'home users' as being
    >'1.5+'? (..just curious, really)


    >* This could be a huge issue, of course, if a later
    >Java version provides a core functionality of the
    >app..


    I do not even understand what they mean by
    "not supported" or "obsolete".

    When I build an app, I like to build it for the
    oldest working version possible. In Windows
    environment, I have no control of which JVM/MVM
    is installed on end user's box.

    But the app is coded so it is guaranteed to run
    under ANY version of JVM/MVM. Some issues like
    threads and synchronization did work out just
    fine. User interface is working perfectly well
    by staying within AWT alone and not using swing.
    There is simply no need for it and there are
    too many variations out there, creating all sorts
    of compatibility problems.

    So, when someone says "obsolete", does it mean
    that the app, built to not utilize anything
    fancier than jdk 1.3, is somehow not going to
    work on a target platform?

    Do they mean that if you get the latest JVM,
    your app may not even run?
    :--}

    Did they take out AWT functionality in their
    current versions? Because if they did, that
    would probably be the last nail in the Sun's
    coffin.

    The issue is extreme. Microsoft does not
    support swing, and, from what I recall,
    it only supports jdk 1.3.

    Which means it is a deadly battle between
    Sun, Microsoft, Borland and others.

    The development environments are totally
    different. The apps in Sun/Borland worldview
    can not even be built as an .exe file to
    be run under windows.

    Visual Studio does build the executables.
    And that is EXACTLY what Windows users
    know about. Typing "java -bunch of flags ..."
    from the Start-> Run dialog is simply insane
    in the Windows world view.

    Microsoft does not support CLASSPATH and
    they explicity state that fact.

    But what all the developers have to do
    to make sure their apps can run on 90+%
    of all the computers out there?

    Can you provide some references on this issue?

    So, some of the players in the Java world
    would have to vanish. Microsoft does not
    fight the loosing battles. They'll lock
    their horns and will pull out the joker card
    at the end, which is over a generation of
    development work in all sorts of languages,
    technologies, development environment,
    operating system, networking, distributed
    processing, and all sorts of other things.

    Do you think Sun can match that card?
    How?

    --

    Get yourself the most powerful tool for usenet you ever heard of.

    NewsMaestro download page:
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    Web page:
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    Note: You need to have JVM (Java Virtual Machine)
    installed. Otherwise, the program won't run on some versions
    of Windows. Just try to run the program and if you see the
    main window, it means you do have it installed already.

    Otherwise, a quick search on the Internet will find it
    easily. The file size should be around 5 megs.

    JVM is available in Microsoft or Sun (original creator
    of Java language) versions.

    You can visit sun.com to get it.

    Or, you can try this one for starters:

    http://www.java-virtual-machine.net/download.html

    It should have links to sites that have it, I believe.
     
    Almond, Aug 23, 2007
    #16
  17. Almond

    Almond Guest

    In article <>, Lew
    <> wrote:
    >Lew wrote:
    >>> And 1.4? Java 1.4 is entering its "end-of-life" phase - it is in hospice

    > with
    >>> only months left.

    >
    >Andrew Thompson wrote:
    >> yeah.. (shrugs) but given an app. that can easily*
    >> be coded to support 1.4, will also support 1.5 or
    >> 1.6, why would you bother?
    >>
    >> Lew, if the difference between releasing a 1.4 app.,
    >> and a 1.5 app., were 10 lines of code, and a
    >> compilation option, would you *still* recommend
    >> releasing an app. intended for 'home users' as being
    >> '1.5+'? (..just curious, really)

    >
    >I recommend using Java 6 wherever feasible. The definition of "feasible" is
    >situational. I develop for 1.4 at work.
    >
    >Home users have no reason to stay at an old version of Java. I would
    >definitely recommend to the home users that they upgrade.


    And this is about the stickiest point in all this.
    "Home users" are using Windows.

    The developers are using Windows development environments,
    be it Microsoft, Borland, etc.

    The Visual Studio development environment does not
    support even swing.
    About the only trully compatible thing they support is AWT.

    So, when you say: "i recomend to upgdate",
    what do you mean by that?

    To upgrade what?

    Again, about the only thing i know of that produces
    standard .exe file tha can be double clicked on to run,
    is Visual Studio.

    I do not believe there is such a notion in Borland or
    Sun environment.

    They just locked their horns with Microsoft and use
    all these mega law suits to prove some point.
    To whom?

    To MICROSOFT?

    Are they out of their mind?

    Instead of working together and working out something
    that works for everybody, they do just about all they
    can to make sure THEIR view of the Universe is the
    only one that has a validity?

    What do you expect to happen to Java as such as a result?
    Steve Jobs already made his point on Java as such by
    saying:

    "No one is developing for Java any longer.
    It is too fat, too heavy weight, too much burden".

    This is not the exact quote.
    But don't undermine the very meaning and significance
    of it.

    When people of his caliber say things like this,
    it is basically a death verdict.

    Microsoft is just way too big to even bother about
    Sun. Even though Sun can make them hurt a lil with
    all those mega-sucking lawsuits.

    And what does it achieve at the end?

    Well, the licence to use JVM is extended to Microsoft,
    and that is about all they need.

    And you know how much Microsoft cares about JVM?
    Guess.

    They'll have their own version of MVM and it will
    seamlessly support the standard approach users
    are familiar with for at least a generation,
    and that is:

    The end product, the app, is a directly executable
    program, just like any other.

    It is delivered as .exe file and not a bunch
    of class files, all sorts of flags, CLASSPATH
    specification, and you name it.

    The end user does not need to bother with ANY
    of that stuff.

    And that is about the most critical issue,
    as it addresses of the very underlying philosophy
    of java run time environment.

    By simply double clicking on the app, user
    expects it to run. Just about ALL he cares for
    is to see the .exe file.

    No paths, no flags, no directory structures.
    NOTHING.

    The whole idea as created, specified and stubbornly
    supported by Sun, is flawed.

    Do they expect the end user to switch to Unix/Linux?
    How many generations is it going to take to achive
    that "goal", if ever?

    Are these people insane?

    >As a developer, I find the differences between 1.4 and 5 to be significant -
    >huge, really. I hate having to go back to 1.4. If there's any way to
    >baseline at Java 5+, I insist on it.


    This is another interesting issue.

    You see, people are used to the "latest and gratest" hype.
    It is like a fasion of sorts.
    Unless you have the latest jeans, you can't go out on
    the street.
    Why?

    It became an obscession. And people are FORCED to get
    the "latest and gratest", and most of them do not even
    realize there is no benefit in all this fashion madness.

    There is no really need for all these supersex machines.
    Most of my apps have value not because of sexy buttons
    and all other jazz. They have value because of their
    functionality. Unless you develop some trans-galactic
    distributed system, with real time updates on global
    situation, in vast majority of cases, this version
    desease does not deliver the good they promised.

    Secondly, switching versions and getting obscessed
    with obsoletion, what are you saying really?

    That 2 + 2 is no longer 4?
    That Add operation in your CPU is no longer "supported"?
    Because you replaced it with trans-galactic orgasm?

    Is hammer a hammer?
    Is screwdriver a screwdriver?

    Do you obsolete bread one day?

    What is this madness?

    Well, simple enough, so that you are constantly kept
    sucked in, forever shelling out thousands of bux on
    never ending updates to their supersex machines.

    But the net gain is hardly in the range of 10%
    in VAST majority of applications.

    What kind of applications do you use anyway?
    What kind of applications categories DO exist to date?

    Amazingly, it hasn't change much for at least a generation.
    It is editors, networking apps, databases, graphic, sound
    applications and a few others.
    That constitutes VAST majority of apps out there.

    Even thouse RSS feeds are no miracle of ANY kind.

    >Java has to have the slowest adoption curve of any community. Java 5 is two
    >and a half years old already, hardly a spring chicken in IT terms. Are people
    >still playing the same video games introduced for Xmas of '04? Much less '02,
    >when 1.4 came out?
    >
    >If a home user has Java at all, why would they use a five-year-old version?
    >Wouldn't it be straightforward for them to upgrade to at /least/ 5?


    As far as I can see, Sun has MUCH deeper problems right now.

    They have to decide to either support the MS worldview,
    in whichever way they can manage it, or lock the horns
    with Microsoft and decide to overturn the world.

    The whole idea of JVM is flawed, just as Steve Jobbs
    pointed out. It is the exact same idea as Pascal P machine.
    Millions upon millions were wasted trying to manufacture
    the harware chips that can run P code directly.

    And the end result is?

    Anybory heard of P-machine?

    Again, unless a virtual macnine becomes a hardare chip,
    users do not even know of, Java has as much of a chance
    to be widely adopted by vast majority of mere mortals,
    as for the hell to get frozen.

    Whatever will be left of Sun, Microsof will by out
    for a penny on a dollar, if they even bother.
    Because it is worthless.

    There isn't a SINGLE thing that is so revolutionary
    in Java, that is not already known and exists on all
    sorts of levels, from kernel up.

    Yes, Java has its own flavor and some of those ideas
    do make a lot of sense.

    But do you in your clear mind believe that Java
    is going to win over C++ and MFC type of things?

    If with a simpliest app, you need to load at least
    10 megs of fat, just to do 2 + 2, then what does it
    tell you?

    Well, it tells ME that the eintire approach is
    FUNDAMENTALLY wrong. Things like on-demand loading
    are known since at least a generation ago.

    Things like libraries and DLLs in Microsoft's wordview
    exist for as long.

    Synchronization exists since pre-Unix times.

    And the list has barely begun.

    >At least the enterprise folks can manufacture an excuse - though oddly many of
    >them are going ahead with last year's MS Office Suite and this year's .NET
    >framework while moaning that it's too soon to upgrade from '02's (or even
    >'00's) version of Java.


    I, personaly, start shivering when any manufacturer
    releases a new version. Because it is GUARANTEED
    to be about 5 times fatter, and 5 times slower,
    and that is if you are lucky.

    Sometimes I have to go to some older versions of things,
    and it always amazes me how much faster it runs and how
    much leaner it is. It looks like for a single coca cola
    can they put in their "new" version, you have to pay
    for a tank, or even Rolls Royce.

    What kind of "architectures" are these?

    Microsoft is very deliberate on making sure that the next
    version will be 5 times as fat and 5 times as slow.

    Just compare Vista to XP.
    You can't even start the stupid box unless you have 1 gig
    of RAM just to boot.

    And what have they given you for that?

    A few more buttons?
    That support a never ending race to hell?
    With all those games, that program young children's
    minds with the ideas of violence, blood, murder,
    destruction?

    Then what do you expect to get by the time that
    child grows up? In his subconscious, he is a mature
    murder, thief, conman, greedy politicion, utterly
    dishonest entity, that does not even feel anything
    when it pushes the REAL red button of nukelar
    (that is how top brass pronounces it) anihilation.

    Because he was programmed to have this worldview
    from the 5 year old level.

    Just to have a few more red buttons of anihilation,
    you need to go to version 6?

    Of what?

    What do you expect to achieve with version 6 that
    I can not achieve with much earlier version?

    What kind of apps you write?
    What do they do?

    A trans-galactic tarot reading and predict the
    next step in mankinds development?

    Do you want me to tell you those steps, without
    even using computer beyond using my good ole newsreader,
    that i tried to change to something "latest and greatest"
    for at least 5 times? And still, after seeing all those
    mazes of buttons and "functionality", which is fundamentally
    incorrect in the very architecture, I still go back to this
    10 years old newsreader.

    Can anyone recomend something better?
    Which one?
    I even promise to download that bloatware
    and even try to run it, and even more than once,
    just to make sure i did not miss any of those
    "great" "features".

    In combination with NewsMaestro, i am in the best shape
    i need to be.

    Good luck on the road to you know what...

    --

    Get yourself the most powerful tool for usenet you ever heard of.

    NewsMaestro download page:
    http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=203356

    Web page:
    http://tarkus01.by.ru/

    Note: You need to have JVM (Java Virtual Machine)
    installed. Otherwise, the program won't run on some versions
    of Windows. Just try to run the program and if you see the
    main window, it means you do have it installed already.

    Otherwise, a quick search on the Internet will find it
    easily. The file size should be around 5 megs.

    JVM is available in Microsoft or Sun (original creator
    of Java language) versions.

    You can visit sun.com to get it.

    Or, you can try this one for starters:

    http://www.java-virtual-machine.net/download.html

    It should have links to sites that have it, I believe.
     
    Almond, Aug 23, 2007
    #17
  18. Almond

    Almond Guest

    Re: Almond is the NewsMaestro Spammer

    In article <>, Hunter
    Gratzner <> wrote:
    >On Aug 23, 3:17 am, (Almond) wrote:
    >>
    >> Get yourself the most powerful tool for usenet you ever heard of.
    >>
    >> NewsMaestro download

    > page:http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=203356
    >
    >So you are the NewsMaestro spammer who spammed this and 200 other
    >newsgroups with NewsMaestro advertising
    >
    >Please go away.


    Listen, I do have some respect to some people on this group.

    But what seems to be the problem with one simple thread?

    One more time:

    About the best strategy, BY FAR, is this:

    If you don't like it,
    do not read it,
    do not follow up on it,
    and just forget about it.

    Trust me, these are the words directly from the horse's mouth,
    Russ Allbery, the maintainer of INN server,
    and a holder of a golden key to the entire Big-8
    hierarchy, of which your group is a part.

    Unlesss you are inherently sick.


    --

    Get yourself the most powerful tool for usenet you ever heard of.

    NewsMaestro download page:
    http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=203356

    Web page:
    http://tarkus01.by.ru/

    Note: You need to have JVM (Java Virtual Machine)
    installed. Otherwise, the program won't run on some versions
    of Windows. Just try to run the program and if you see the
    main window, it means you do have it installed already.

    Otherwise, a quick search on the Internet will find it
    easily. The file size should be around 5 megs.

    JVM is available in Microsoft or Sun (original creator
    of Java language) versions.

    You can visit sun.com to get it.

    Or, you can try this one for starters:

    http://www.java-virtual-machine.net/download.html

    It should have links to sites that have it, I believe.
     
    Almond, Aug 23, 2007
    #18
  19. Almond

    Jeff Higgins Guest

    Re: Almond is the NewsMaestro Spammer

    Hunter Gratzner wrote:
    > On Aug 23, 3:17 am, (Almond) wrote:
    >>
    >> Get yourself the most powerful tool for usenet you ever heard of.
    >>
    >> NewsMaestro download
    >> page:http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=203356

    >
    > So you are the NewsMaestro spammer who spammed this and 200 other
    > newsgroups with NewsMaestro advertising


    Also the infamous psycho Nukleus.
    >
    > Please go away.
    >

    Yes.
     
    Jeff Higgins, Aug 23, 2007
    #19
  20. Re: Almond is the NewsMaestro Spammer

    On Aug 23, 10:20 pm, "Jeff Higgins" <> wrote:
    > Also the infamous psycho Nukleus.


    Nukleus? Nukleus you say? Wait a second. This Nukleus? (I deleted all
    names)

    --------------------------------------------------------------
    Path: g2news2.google.com!news2.google.com!news.germany.com!
    news2.volia.net!news.ntu-kpi.kiev.ua!news.uran.net.ua!carrier.kiev.ua!
    news.te.net.ua!sewer-output
    From: (nukleus)
    Newsgroups: news.groups
    Subject: Usenet Nazis hall of shame nomination
    Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 06:12:38 GMT
    Organization: Land of Biorobots
    Lines: 47
    Message-ID: <eqjno4$8gi$>
    NNTP-Posting-Host: d157-75.tenet.odessa.ua
    X-Trace: toster.te.net.ua 1171087942 8722 195.138.75.157 (10 Feb 2007
    06:12:22 GMT)
    X-Complaints-To:
    NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 06:12:22 +0000 (UTC)
    X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01

    Wouldo ya like to vote,
    just one more time?

    [deleted], da herr fuehrer nomination,
    also goes as Da Father of Brainwashing,
    and His Royal Sucky Highness

    [deleted]

    [deleted], da master of perversion

    [deleted], sitting on a donkey, only backwards,
    with a tin foil cylinder on his head
    and a paper sword in his hand,
    thinking where could he find a fresh, 6 years old, pedo boy.

    [deleted], sucks better than a black hole

    [deleted], da protector of da law and order

    [deleted]

    [deleted], da accumulator of news.* "moderator" labels

    [deleted] a pigmey with a spear, running after AI gods

    [deleted], da mouth foamin', blood boilin'

    [deleted], da king of da master-bation club

    [deleted], da Brookline bloated brotherhood of
    "slaughter them all" type

    [deleted], da reincarnate ass licker of da white wasp's ass

    [deleted], she doesn't quite make it to nazis,
    but looks good fer nazi ass lickers

    [deleted], that's [deleted]'s level. They go togheter as a package

    Da pinky red ass, there were quite a few of those animals,
    come in bulk, in assorted sizes of their output hole

    add yer own two pennies below,
    or above,
    or insert,
    or be proud of yerself.

    --------------------------------------------------------------
     
    Hunter Gratzner, Aug 23, 2007
    #20
    1. Advertising

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