Which JVM to use under Windows?

[Hunter Gratzner]

Listen,

I don't listen to spammers. They are notorious liars.

But what seems to be the problem with one simple thread?

See? Here we go. You spammed more than 30+ groups with more than 200+
messages. So much for "one simple thread".

http://groups.google.com/groups/pro...AAtp77XwfhKCSk3hbpGoPRNTtQ5EAPV6MV9oWg-kRAx3w

Please go away liar.

 

[Andrew Thompson]

Almond wrote:
...

And this is about the stickiest point in all this.
"Home users" are using Windows.

I don't see why. Java is X-plat.

The Visual Studio ...

Why on earth would you be coding Java using an obsolete
IDE? (Or an IDE that only 'supports' obsolete Java?)

As an aside, most Java IDE's will support any Java that
you specify as the JDK.

...development environment does not
support even swing.

(shrugs) Yeah? Notepad does.

Again, about the only thing i know of that produces
standard .exe file ..

Why aren't you coding in .NET then, if all you want is
Windows support? I am guessing the GUI could be coded
faster in .NET (with 'D-n-D' GUI design abilities) than
coded in Java (which typically does not open itself as
well to the D-n-D design).

..tha can be double clicked on to run,
is Visual Studio.

Web start supports desktop icons and menu items.
Just as easy for the end user to launch, and
supported X-plat.

--
Andrew Thompson
http://www.athompson.info/andrew/

Message posted via JavaKB.com
http://www.javakb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/java-general/200708/1

 

[Almond]

Almond wrote:
...

I don't see why.

Just look at statistics.
You can post all day long on this group,
but you know how much of a dent it is going to make?

Java is X-plat.

Not in my experience. I did check things out using
different development environments, etc.,
and what I found, if I am not careful, I am going
to get trapped into their "proprietary" "technologies",
on just about ANY level you can find, starting from
using Borland's "proprietary" layouts, and going to
Microsoft's tricks of making sure when you hit a
dot on some object in the source file, and it gives
you all the possible alternatives, Microsoft's
"proprietary" version of some stupid string operation
is going to show up first, and, if you are not careful,
you won't be able to build that app on Borland or Sun.

Simple as that. I am not even talking about all those
variations on the JVM/MVM or whatever the latest hype
is.

Why on earth would you be coding Java using an obsolete
IDE?

What?
This is something new to me.
Can you outline some specifics?

(Or an IDE that only 'supports' obsolete Java?)

Which runs perfectly well in my case.

As an aside, most Java IDE's will support any Java that
you specify as the JDK.

I can tell you one thing. I have been using the
Microsoft's environment from the day one, and I have
used all sorts of other environments, be it Linux
or Unix worldview.

And what I found is that the Microsoft's wordlview
is about the most flexible, most powerfult thing
I know of.

I can open up 2 instances of the same environment,
one using Java and the other one using C++, and
i can do miracles with it. Set the breakpoints
and modify the source code on the fly. It has
built-in support for version control system,
and it is a seamless operation.

I can generate a deliverable packages with a simple
mouse click, and I can do all sorts of other things
i need to do.

Can you match that with ANY other environment?
(I assume we are talking about Windows OS).

I worked with all possible variations of Unix and
Linux, and what I found is that they are clunky.
In linux, they can not even have a good enough
graphics capabilities to display the fonts so they
do not look ugly. The whole user interface is
simply childish and immature.
All the X stuff is on the level of a generation ago.
All their KDEs, Gnomes, and all that are simply
funny compared to what is available under Windows.

Last time I used Linux, about a month ago,
I simply had a headache because the whole thing
was simply ugly, immature and childish.

I could not even connect to the Internet.
Spent more than an hour trying to see their
"latest and greatest" version of doing the exact
same thing I used before, and that lame thing,
for some strange reason, would refuse to recognize
things for what they are.

Is THAT what you are proposing me?

Btw, do any of you know exactly the Linux way
of building a Java app and what is the "best"
environment? I looked at their java aspect,
and found some Gava, Mava, and Miawa, as a
front end to their C++ compiler.

I did not have much time to spend on it,
but now it is quickly becoming a top priority item.
I need to verify one app to be buildable and runnable
under Linux. One guy did it in one day, but he happens
to be an arrogant, obnoxious idiot, who likes to take
things for free, but is not willing to GIVE anything
or tell others how to make it work, and I don't have
much time to spend on this at the moment.

So, any assistance in Linux worldview or any pointers
would be appreciated.

(shrugs) Yeah? Notepad does.

Which Notepad?
Under which OS?

Why aren't you coding in .NET then, if all you want is
Windows support?

What are other alternatives that will allow me to work
as comfortably as I do now and have all the power and
flexibility I have at the moment?

I am guessing the GUI could be coded
faster in .NET (with 'D-n-D' GUI design abilities)

Sorry, what is D-n-D?
:--}

than
coded in Java (which typically does not open itself as
well to the D-n-D design).

This is what I have and there is nothing I can do
about at the moment and I simply have not time
to start the whole game from top.

Web start supports desktop icons and menu items.
Just as easy for the end user to launch, and
supported X-plat.

I need a professional develpment environment
where everything is integrated and seamless.
I can just double click on some HTML file
and it opens up the full fledged HTML editor
with support for style sheets and you name it.
If I want to change something in a style sheet,
I simply select an item and it expands all the
choices I have. That is what I need.
I simply have to time or interest to switch my
brain to a totally different, "customized", or
"proprietary" world view.

That is the way it is.

--

Get yourself the most powerful tool for usenet you ever heard of.

NewsMaestro download page:
http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=203356

Web page:
http://tarkus01.by.ru/

Note: You need to have JVM (Java Virtual Machine)
installed. Otherwise, the program won't run on some versions
of Windows. Just try to run the program and if you see the
main window, it means you do have it installed already.

Otherwise, a quick search on the Internet will find it
easily. The file size should be around 5 megs.

JVM is available in Microsoft or Sun (original creator
of Java language) versions.

You can visit sun.com to get it.

Or, you can try this one for starters:

http://www.java-virtual-machine.net/download.html

It should have links to sites that have it, I believe.

 

[Ishwor Gurung]

Almond wrote:

................

Not in my experience. I did check things out using
different development environments, etc.,
and what I found, if I am not careful, I am going
to get trapped into their "proprietary" "technologies",
on just about ANY level you can find, starting from
using Borland's "proprietary" layouts, and going to
Microsoft's tricks of making sure when you hit a
dot on some object in the source file, and it gives
you all the possible alternatives, Microsoft's
"proprietary" version of some stupid string operation
is going to show up first, and, if you are not careful,
you won't be able to build that app on Borland or Sun.

Yes. And hence the VM spec (for how a typical JVM should work). I am reading
more of it atm.

What?
This is something new to me.
Can you outline some specifics?


Which runs perfectly well in my case.


I can tell you one thing. I have been using the
Microsoft's environment from the day one, and I have
used all sorts of other environments, be it Linux
or Unix worldview.

What is worldview ?

And what I found is that the Microsoft's wordlview
is about the most flexible, most powerfult thing
I know of.

I can open up 2 instances of the same environment,
one using Java and the other one using C++, and
i can do miracles with it. Set the breakpoints
and modify the source code on the fly. It has
built-in support for version control system,
and it is a seamless operation.

Why do that when you can use one Eclipse session to do both C++ and Java AND
be able to debug both of them at the same time.

I can generate a deliverable packages with a simple
mouse click, and I can do all sorts of other things
i need to do.

You just have to find the right tools
http://zero-install.sourceforge.net/
http://autopackage.org/
BTW, You seem to be coming from M$ World (which I did unknowingly as well).
GUI based packaging might be easier for you but it's not the standard in
GNU/Linux world (although it could be in near future). Theres everyones
favorite RPM, Apt, Slapt, dpkg...... lots of them.

Can you match that with ANY other environment?
(I assume we are talking about Windows OS).

I worked with all possible variations of Unix and
Linux, and what I found is that they are clunky.
In linux, they can not even have a good enough
graphics capabilities to display the fonts so they
do not look ugly. The whole user interface is
simply childish and immature.
All the X stuff is on the level of a generation ago.
All their KDEs, Gnomes, and all that are simply
funny compared to what is available under Windows.

Probably but IMO only morons would say that. Graphics in Linux is *not* good
as M$ Windows not due to the inability of the programmers working on them.
Its because the Graphics card manufacturers would not open up the Graphics
card's specification openly and release them. If there is no specification
(like Java VM spec), how would you expect to implement the functionality?
Then you'd have to invent a whole new different Programming language.

Last time I used Linux, about a month ago,
I simply had a headache because the whole thing
was simply ugly, immature and childish.

It's not. It could probably be because you had minor glitch and also because
maybe you are little impatient. With Linux, it's free world where if you
abide by your ability to think, you can actually fairly make progress very
fast. If you prefer beautification of desktop environment,try
Compiz/Beryl/Compiz+Beryl.

I could not even connect to the Internet.
Spent more than an hour trying to see their
"latest and greatest" version of doing the exact
same thing I used before, and that lame thing,
for some strange reason, would refuse to recognize
things for what they are.

As I said earlier, it's not because of Linux's fault. It's mostly one's
inability to work to make the system do the right thing. The OS doesn't own
you; You own the OS (there's a very deep meaning to this of which I am sure
lot of Linux user know already but one wouldn't have to be a Linux user to
know it)

Is THAT what you are proposing me?

Btw, do any of you know exactly the Linux way
of building a Java app and what is the "best"
environment? I looked at their java aspect,
and found some Gava, Mava, and Miawa, as a
front end to their C++ compiler.

There is no one "best" way of doing things. You might like one way, the
others might like their way. Having said that, there's -
1) Eclipse+java+javac 2) VI+javac+java 3) Emacs+javac+java
More available at http://linuxmafia.com/faq/Devtools/ides.html
If the editor is written in Java like Eclipse, it will run on all platform
that supports Java.

I did not have much time to spend on it,
but now it is quickly becoming a top priority item.
I need to verify one app to be buildable and runnable
under Linux. One guy did it in one day, but he happens
to be an arrogant, obnoxious idiot, who likes to take
things for free, but is not willing to GIVE anything
or tell others how to make it work, and I don't have
much time to spend on this at the moment.

Not uncommon. Lot of the Linux people including myself try to be friendly as
much as possible but I have heard/talked with many like the ones you
mentioned above. It's IMO to do with ego. Nothing to do with Linux or Unix
or for that matter any OSS OS. You can't generalise people by the OS they
use. You can only get fair idea, nothing much.

So, any assistance in Linux worldview or any pointers
would be appreciated.

Bumppp.. What is worldview (RPM?, one version per machine?)

.......

I need a professional develpment environment
where everything is integrated and seamless.
I can just double click on some HTML file
and it opens up the full fledged HTML editor
with support for style sheets and you name it.
If I want to change something in a style sheet,
I simply select an item and it expands all the
choices I have. That is what I need.
I simply have to time or interest to switch my
brain to a totally different, "customized", or
"proprietary" world view.

Get Eclipse (http://www.eclipse.org), then Google around for plugins that
will let you do lot of stuffs like CSS editing, XML editing, HTML editing,
C++/Perl/Python/Java/Ruby/<some_obscure_ones> coding.

Probably not Smalltalk? ;O

That is the way it is.

Not it's not.

 

[RedGrittyBrick]

Not in my experience.

It simply means that Sun provide JVMs for a variety of platforms.
Windows, Solaris, Linux. Other OS vendors provide JRE and JDK for their
operating systems e.g. Apple provide a Sun based JRE and JDK for Mac OS/X.

It is true that you can write non-portable code in Java and that even
portable code often needs careful testing on target platforms. However
that does not mean that Java is not "cross platform".

I did check things out using
different development environments, etc.,
and what I found, if I am not careful, I am going
to get trapped into their "proprietary" "technologies",

Proprietary and cross-platform are not mutually exclusive.

on just about ANY level you can find, starting from
using Borland's "proprietary" layouts,

<http://www.codegear.com/downloads/free/jbuilder> says
Platform "Windows, Mac OS X, Linux".

and going to
Microsoft's tricks of making sure when you hit a
dot on some object in the source file,

Microsoft's J++ or J# or whatever it's called now, is not Java(tm).

What?
This is something new to me.
Can you outline some specifics?

I imagine Andrew is referring to the fact that many years ago Microsoft
dropped support for Java(tm) <http://www.microsoft.com/mscorp/java/faq.mspx>

AIUI Microsoft then concentrated on providing tools for migrating apps

Which Notepad?
Under which OS?

I think Andrew is referring to the fact that you can write Swing apps in
any text editor.

Most Java learners seem to quickly progress to Netbeans, Eclipse or some
other Java IDE.


http://www.excelsior-usa.com/articles/java-to-exe.html

The .exe files produced by .NET compilers are not like the .exe files
produced by C compilers of old. They are much like the .jar files
produced by Java compilers - they won't execute on Windows XP (say)
unless the appropriate runtime environment is first installed.

You can produce "standard .exe" files from Java in a number of ways but
it is apparent that many Java developers feel that doing so is in
contradiction to the main reasons for using Java in the first place.

What are other alternatives that will allow me to work
as comfortably as I do now and have all the power and
flexibility I have at the moment?

If you're happy with Visual Studio for J++ you should be even happier
with Visual Studio for C#.

Have you tried Eclipse, Netbeans or any other Java IDE recently?

Sorry, what is D-n-D?
Drag-and-Drop.



This is what I have and there is nothing I can do
about at the moment and I simply have not time
to start the whole game from top. ....
I need a professional develpment environment

I suspect almost all professional Java developers are using up-to-date
Java IDEs and JVMs. AIUI Microsoft long ago discontinued support for
professional Java developers.

If you are comfortable in the Microsoft world and want to stay there, I
expect you should probably be following Microsoft's advice and migrating
to .NET and C#

If you are developing Java applications professionally, In my view you
would almost certainly be better off using a *current* Java development
toolkit.

 

[Mike Schilling]

Microsoft's J++ or J# or whatever it's called now, is not Java(tm).

In case anyone cares:

J++ dates back to before the MS/Sun Java lawsuit. It's ancient, obsolete,
and wholly unsupported.

J# is one of the languages that can be used with the .NET framework. It's
neither obsolete nor unsupported, and can be developed with the current
version of Visual Studio. It's only relationship to J++ is one of "cultural
compatibility".

As RGB points out, neither is Java.

 

[Roedy Green]

If a home user has Java at all, why would they use a five-year-old version?
Wouldn't it be straightforward for them to upgrade to at /least/ 5?

Acrobat users have the latest version because Acrobat nags them to
upgrade whenever there is an upgrade.

Java does not even have a "check for updates" on the app menu.
The location of where you get the update is lesser known than most
state secrets.

Server side folks don't like updates happening unless scheduled. Sun
has considered only their interests.

 

[Mike Schilling]

Acrobat users have the latest version because Acrobat nags them to
upgrade whenever there is an upgrade.

Java does not even have a "check for updates" on the app menu.
The location of where you get the update is lesser known than most
state secrets.

I get nagged about Java updates all the tine.

http://www.processlibrary.com/directory/files/jusched

 

[Almond]

Almond wrote:

I have read your entire article.
Thanks for your help and pointers.
I do not have time to get into specifics at the moment.

But thanks for your feedback.

................


Yes. And hence the VM spec (for how a typical JVM should work). I am reading
more of it atm.



What is worldview ?


Why do that when you can use one Eclipse session to do both C++ and Java AND
be able to debug both of them at the same time.



You just have to find the right tools
http://zero-install.sourceforge.net/
http://autopackage.org/
BTW, You seem to be coming from M$ World (which I did unknowingly as well).
GUI based packaging might be easier for you but it's not the standard in
GNU/Linux world (although it could be in near future). Theres everyones
favorite RPM, Apt, Slapt, dpkg...... lots of them.



Probably but IMO only morons would say that. Graphics in Linux is *not* good
as M$ Windows not due to the inability of the programmers working on them.
Its because the Graphics card manufacturers would not open up the Graphics
card's specification openly and release them. If there is no specification
(like Java VM spec), how would you expect to implement the functionality?
Then you'd have to invent a whole new different Programming language.


It's not. It could probably be because you had minor glitch and also because
maybe you are little impatient. With Linux, it's free world where if you
abide by your ability to think, you can actually fairly make progress very
fast. If you prefer beautification of desktop environment,try
Compiz/Beryl/Compiz+Beryl.


As I said earlier, it's not because of Linux's fault. It's mostly one's
inability to work to make the system do the right thing. The OS doesn't own
you; You own the OS (there's a very deep meaning to this of which I am sure
lot of Linux user know already but one wouldn't have to be a Linux user to
know it)


There is no one "best" way of doing things. You might like one way, the
others might like their way. Having said that, there's -
1) Eclipse+java+javac 2) VI+javac+java 3) Emacs+javac+java
More available at http://linuxmafia.com/faq/Devtools/ides.html
If the editor is written in Java like Eclipse, it will run on all platform
that supports Java.


Not uncommon. Lot of the Linux people including myself try to be friendly as
much as possible but I have heard/talked with many like the ones you
mentioned above. It's IMO to do with ego. Nothing to do with Linux or Unix
or for that matter any OSS OS. You can't generalise people by the OS they
use. You can only get fair idea, nothing much.


Bumppp.. What is worldview (RPM?, one version per machine?)


Get Eclipse (http://www.eclipse.org), then Google around for plugins that
will let you do lot of stuffs like CSS editing, XML editing, HTML editing,
C++/Perl/Python/Java/Ruby/<some_obscure_ones> coding.

Probably not Smalltalk? ;O


Not it's not.

--

Get yourself the most powerful tool for usenet you ever heard of.

NewsMaestro download page:
http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=203356

Web page:
http://tarkus01.by.ru/

Note: You need to have JVM (Java Virtual Machine)
installed. Otherwise, the program won't run on some versions
of Windows. Just try to run the program and if you see the
main window, it means you do have it installed already.

Otherwise, a quick search on the Internet will find it
easily. The file size should be around 5 megs.

JVM is available in Microsoft or Sun (original creator
of Java language) versions.

You can visit sun.com to get it.

Or, you can try this one for starters:

http://www.java-virtual-machine.net/download.html

It should have links to sites that have it, I believe.

 

[Almond]

Almond wrote:
...

I don't see why. Java is X-plat.

Well, there is even a problem running an app on a SINGLE
platform, Windows.

The problem is this:

The program is produced in a standard .exe file, and any
exe file is assumed to be an executable that you can run
by simply double clicking on it.

The program runs fine here, but some people say it does not
run for them. So far, the issue seems to have with class
definition files, whatever those are.

Does anyone here know about these "class definition" files
under windows and what needs to be done to make the program
run under ANY version of Windows?

I have spent hours trying to find the info on it with no luck.
I get hundreds of pages of dense crap, but not a single page
on what I need to know. The documentation system was completely
rewritten and it is about the worst documentation since the
beginning of Windows times. Even table of contents does not work
the way it worked as far as 10 years back, where you could do
a search and then push the previous button and in the contents
frame it would put you exactly into the related category.

Why on earth would you be coding Java using an obsolete
IDE? (Or an IDE that only 'supports' obsolete Java?)

Because it should run on ANY version of windows going
back to win98 and with ANY version of JVM.

As an aside, most Java IDE's will support any Java that
you specify as the JDK.

Easy to say that.

(shrugs) Yeah? Notepad does.


Why aren't you coding in .NET then, if all you want is
Windows support?

I did not say this is ALL i want. The program is reported
to run under Linux. And it should run under any operating
system where you can install a JVM.

I am guessing the GUI could be coded
faster in .NET (with 'D-n-D' GUI design abilities) than
coded in Java (which typically does not open itself as
well to the D-n-D design).

GUI worked out perfectly well. Every single program window
or a dialog box is modeless and can be resized, maximized
or minimized. Any and all dialogs can be opened simultaneously
without any harm. Even if you start one of processors, you
can still have any of your dialogs opened. Even if you
modify some parameters while processors are running, with
the next item, it will use your new parameters. Even
when you have all the dialogs opened and a number of processors
running, you can still save your configuration on the fly.

I haven't seen a single program out there for ANY money
that can do that.

Web start supports desktop icons and menu items.
Just as easy for the end user to launch, and
supported X-plat.

About the last thing in the world i need right now
is to have yet another bowl of vax to deal with,
with its own quirks and problems. My hands are already
full with what I have.



--

Get yourself the most powerful tool for usenet you ever heard of.

NewsMaestro download page:
http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=203356

Web page:
http://tarkus01.by.ru/

Note: You need to have JVM (Java Virtual Machine)
installed. Otherwise, the program won't run on some versions
of Windows. Just try to run the program and if you see the
main window, it means you do have it installed already.

Otherwise, a quick search on the Internet will find it
easily. The file size should be around 5 megs.

JVM is available in Microsoft or Sun (original creator
of Java language) versions.

You can visit sun.com to get it.

Or, you can try this one for starters:

http://www.java-virtual-machine.net/download.html

It should have links to sites that have it, I believe.

 

[Gordon Beaton]

I don't see why. Java is X-plat.

Please recommend a relatively modern JDK for Linux/UltraSparc,
Linux/Alpha, or FreeBSD/Alpha.

/gordon

--

 

[Andrew Thompson]

..Modern..

..about as..

..as you are likely to find, though it will not run
on some toasters, any electric mowers, and
(presumably, from their specific mention)..

...Linux/UltraSparc,
Linux/Alpha, or FreeBSD/Alpha.

--
Andrew Thompson
http://www.athompson.info/andrew/

Message posted via JavaKB.com
http://www.javakb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/java-general/200708/1

 

[Almond]

..about as..


..as you are likely to find, though it will not run
on some toasters, any electric mowers, and
(presumably, from their specific mention)..

Yes, you arrogance does not have limits.
That much is certain.

--

Get yourself the most powerful tool for usenet you ever heard of.

NewsMaestro download page:
http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=203356

Web page:
http://tarkus01.by.ru/

Note: You need to have JVM (Java Virtual Machine)
installed. Otherwise, the program won't run on some versions
of Windows. Just try to run the program and if you see the
main window, it means you do have it installed already.

Otherwise, a quick search on the Internet will find it
easily. The file size should be around 5 megs.

JVM is available in Microsoft or Sun (original creator
of Java language) versions.

You can visit sun.com to get it.

Or, you can try this one for starters:

http://www.java-virtual-machine.net/download.html

It should have links to sites that have it, I believe.

 

[Hunter Gratzner]

Yes, you arrogance does not have limits.
That much is certain.

Shut up, spammer.