Why did no one invent Python before?

[Roy Smith]

A more pertinent question might be why, when languages like this
appeared some time ago, are monstrosities like C# still being
created?

Here's my take on the currently popular languages...

C took off in the late 70's and early 80's because it was so much better
than the alternatives, and because it was wrapped up with Unix (about
which the same thing can be said). C really was (and still is) a very
good language for what it was intended for: low level procedural
programming.

C++ took off in the mid to late 80's because it answered a need for OO
functionality while maintaining backwards compatability with C. It also
added a few useful features C was lacking. Unfortunately, it also
suffered from a bad case of "second system syndrome". It piled one
complicated feature on top of another, and grew to be an ugly monster.
But don't underestimate the power of the C compatability; for better or
worse, that is what made C++ become so popular.

Java took off in the 1990's for two reasons. One is that it answered a
need for a OOPL which didn't suck quite so much as C++, while still
looking and feeling enough like it to make people comfortable. The
other (and far more critical), reason is that Java jumped on the web
bandwagon with both feet. Between applets and things like JSP (I
actually think JSP is a pretty neat system), Java was the language to
know if you wanted to be involved in web development in the 1990's, and
everybody in the 1990's wanted to be involved in web development. You
could have duct-taped a dead whale to the side of the web bandwagon and
it would have gotten pulled along. The fact that Java was being hyped
by Sun, the darling of the 90's, didn't hurt either.

I must confess to not knowing much about C#, but my (somewhat ignorant)
take on it is that it's taking off because it's yet another language
that doesn't suck quite so much as C++, while still looking and feeling
enough like it to make people comfortable, and it's duct-taped to the
side of the Microsoft bandwagon.

All python did was provide a good programming environment.

 

[Michael Geary]

I keep hearing about this Smalltalk IDE. What is really the
big deal, and why hasn't MS ripped it off? I tried to find
screenshots but couldn't. I also applied for a demo download,
but never heard back from the company.

Try Squeak, a free, open source implementation of Smalltalk:

http://www.squeak.org/

-Mike

 

[Steve Lamb]

All python did was provide a good programming environment.

That's not all. There is one thing that I've heard more about Python than
any other language. People, myself included, say it is fun to program in
Python. Fun. I find programming neat but I would never say that my time
programming in Turbo Pascal or Perl was fun.

 

[Terry Reedy]

I see as critical enough time to make sufficient mistakes.

I see Python as a or even the successor to Basic, which was invented over
40 years ago. It was the first 'computer programming for everybody' (CP4E)
language. Basic took off in the late 70s with the invention of
microcomputers and the Microsoft port thereto. Its limitations were
apparent by the mid 80s and so Guido invented/developed a new CP4E
language.

Terry J. Reedy

 

[Lothar Scholz]

Smalltalk was an amazingly cool system, but I don't remember
any usable free Smalltalk systems until recently. I think I

There were a few but they started at 10.000 USD - at a time where a
full delphi was about 500 USD (the 1.0/2.0) versions.

Interesting that the Smalltalk JIT compiler are still far far better
then anything in the python/ruby/perl world. Maybe this has to do with
the 10000 USD price

 

[Lothar Scholz]

I keep hearing about this Smalltalk IDE. What is really the big deal,
and why hasn't MS ripped it off? I tried to find screenshots but
couldn't. I also applied for a demo download, but never heard back
from the company.

MS can't ripp it off. It is a "macro" less OO image based language.
The "image based" is the technical difference and the reason why there
is nothing and can never be something like Smalltalk for python (and
python like languages).

The Perl/Ruby/Python/PHP world have the problem that the languages are
written for intelligent programmer not for intelligent tools (like
refactoring etc).

 

[Lothar Scholz]

As others have pointed out, Python has been around for a good
decade (as have a number of other powerfully expressive
languages, particularly in the functional camp). A more
pertinent question might be why, when languages like this
appeared some time ago, are monstrosities like C# still being
created?

Speed and Safer Design of Programs (statically typed).

 

[bruno modulix]

Alan Gauld a écrit :
(snip)

True, although BASIC was atound in 1963 and interpreted

I think I remember that first basic was compiled. Interpreted versions
came later... (sorry, can find the URL...)

 

[Cameron Laird]

Alan Gauld a écrit :
(snip)

I think I remember that first basic was compiled. Interpreted versions
came later... (sorry, can find the URL...)

.
.
.
Compiled first: '64. Interpreters showed up a few years later,
away from Dartmouth. I haven't been able to figure out where
the latter is documented.

 

[Hung Jung Lu]

Hear Hear !!! I'll second that. Programming in pythong is fun.

Pythong? PythonG?

Sure, if you speak Spanish, then bienvenido a probar el siguiente
entorno fabuloso del pitón gráfico:

http://www3.uji.es/~dllorens/PythonG/

Or if you use it as a fashion statement:

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&[email protected]

regards,

Hung Jung

 

[Hans Nowak]

That's not all. There is one thing that I've heard more about Python than
any other language. People, myself included, say it is fun to program in
Python. Fun. I find programming neat but I would never say that my time
programming in Turbo Pascal or Perl was fun.

I would. Turbo Pascal, that is, not Perl. Of course, back then I didn't know
any better...

 

[Steve Lamb]

I would. Turbo Pascal, that is, not Perl. Of course, back then I didn't know
any better...

All I remember from those days was getting stuck on casting. Everything
up until that point was easy but after that I just couldn't figure out how to
make "1" into 1. Seemed, obvious to me. *sigh* Then again, I was 11 at the
time so maybe my experience with the language is colored. I do know I still
prefer Pascal (in general) to C (in general) but find tcc really neat!

 

[striker]

They did invent it before, it was called LISP. Look at LISP and take away
the braces ().

 

[Hamilcar Barca]

I keep hearing about this Smalltalk IDE. What is really the big deal,

It's really, actually integrated. Plus, Smalltalk is a language with a
simple syntax.

I also applied for a demo download, but never heard back
from the company.

http://www.squeak.org/

 

[Klaus Momberger]

I keep hearing about this Smalltalk IDE. What is really the big deal,
and why hasn't MS ripped it off? I tried to find screenshots but
couldn't. I also applied for a demo download, but never heard back
from the company.

jonathon

Cincom is offering a personal-edition of their product:

http://smalltalk.cincom.com/downloads/index.ssp

then there is Smalltalk/X :

http://www.exept.de/sites/exept/english/Smalltalk/frame_uebersicht.html

both of them are fully-fledged Smalltalks, not demos.

-klaus

 

[Laurence Rowe]

The reason I like zope us that it is a little like smalltalk for the
web. With the latest ZODB developments I think that a smalltalk like
system for python will be possible (the perfect version for me would
integrate with the xul runtime environment when that eventually appears).

Laurence

 

[Grant Edwards]

I would. Turbo Pascal, that is, not Perl. Of course, back then I didn't know
any better...

I'd have to agree that in it's time Turbo Pascal was completely
revolutionary. It had the same "batteries included" feel that
Python does.

 

[jmdeschamps]

That's not all. There is one thing that I've heard more about Python than
any other language. People, myself included, say it is fun to program in
Python. Fun. I find programming neat but I would never say that my time
programming in Turbo Pascal or Perl was fun.

For me, fun is making things in software, principaly divising and
designing it. Python is the best compromise of a better-faster-easier
get-the-thing-done programming environment I've seen. (Well, maybe
Hypercard!)
So the fun in Python is in its unobtrusiveness and its simplicity to
get things to work, fast.
See the listing below ,

Jean-Marc

For context of appraisal, interesting programming
environments/languages I've tried/worked with over the years, looking
for the Holy Grail :
Prolog, Smalltalk, Hypercard (also SuperCard, ToolBook (windows),
Craftman (NeXT)), VIP, Prograph, Double Helix (DBMS), Visual Basic
(Yeh! food), C++Builder, Java/NetBeans

 

[Scott David Daniels]

I see Python as a or even the successor to Basic, which was invented over
40 years ago. It was the first 'computer programming for everybody' (CP4E)
language.

Actually, I think COBOL was the first attempt at that. That was,
of course before anyone realized a "readable" programming language
should make exactly what the program does "clear."

 

[Colin J. Williams]

I think smalltalk users would argue that it was done many years ago. It
looks a bit odd at first to C programmers, but is easy to learn and has
most of the strengths of python:
- interpreted
- automatic garbage collection
- simple and clean
- powerful
- rich set of collection types
- rich set of libraries

There are a few important differences:
- much worse for scripting
- built in GUI
- much better development environment; you really don't know what you're
missing until you've used smalltalk's browsers, inspectors and
debuggers. It's the main thing I really, really miss in python.

I don't know about smalltalk, but, for the Windows user, Boa Contructor
and PythonWin provide a good environment.

I think lisp users would also argue for their language. It's really
weird to non-lisp users (much more so than smalltalk is to C/python
programmers) but really powerful.

Anyway, I did not intend to detract from your praise of python. It is a
wonderful language, and my main language right now.

-- Russell

Colin W.