Why do some people hate java?

Discussion in 'Java' started by samir, Mar 12, 2007.

  1. samir

    samir Guest

    Today, I've googled for "i hate java" and "java sucks".

    I wasn't really amazed of the number of pages listed. I can imagine
    the frustration of some newbie when, first, tweeking the installation
    or struggling with some IDEs that consume "astronomical" (three years
    ago, my computer had 16mb of ram : ) amounts of memory. But the
    biggest problem, I think, is java's coolest part: The huge availale
    classes and source code . For some one that likes programming it's a
    source of frustration. First, you know that what ever you're doing
    have been done. Then, you get simply lost when learning: What class'
    should I start with? How do I choose one?...

    For the rest, the problem is with java the programming language (not
    the virtual machine): Java is seen by many people as a toy programming
    language. No multiple inheritance, garbage collection and the
    templates are childish.

    For me, all the staff above wasn't my problem. My problem was with
    accepting that such an amazing VM that can run on multiple
    achitectures is being wasted using such an archaic programming
    language. So, I've tried some of the available
    "alternatives" (unfortunately, most of these alternatives aren't yet
    ready to compete with Java). The one that had my attention the most is
    Jython. The power of python within a Java VM :)

    So, I started tweeking the beast and found that, not only programming
    was more fun, but also more productive: It's not about reducing the
    number of lines in program, but it's about reducing the time needed
    for debugging and praying that the thing will work.

    What I want to say that Java (as a VM) is a cool and Java (the
    programming language) is a lesser thing.

    Adiaux
    Samir

    P.S:
    samir, Mar 12, 2007
    #1
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  2. samir

    CIndy Lee Guest

    On Mar 12, 11:55 am, "samir" <> wrote:
    > Today, I've googled for "i hate java" and "java sucks".
    >
    > I wasn't really amazed of the number of pages listed. I can imagine
    > the frustration of some newbie when, first, tweeking the installation
    > or struggling with some IDEs that consume "astronomical" (three years
    > ago, my computer had 16mb of ram : ) amounts of memory. But the
    > biggest problem, I think, is java's coolest part: The huge availale
    > classes and source code . For some one that likes programming it's a
    > source of frustration. First, you know that what ever you're doing
    > have been done. Then, you get simply lost when learning: What class'
    > should I start with? How do I choose one?...
    >
    > For the rest, the problem is with java the programming language (not
    > the virtual machine): Java is seen by many people as a toy programming
    > language. No multiple inheritance, garbage collection and the
    > templates are childish.
    >
    > For me, all the staff above wasn't my problem. My problem was with
    > accepting that such an amazing VM that can run on multiple
    > achitectures is being wasted using such an archaic programming
    > language. So, I've tried some of the available
    > "alternatives" (unfortunately, most of these alternatives aren't yet
    > ready to compete with Java). The one that had my attention the most is
    > Jython. The power of python within a Java VM :)
    >
    > So, I started tweeking the beast and found that, not only programming
    > was more fun, but also more productive: It's not about reducing the
    > number of lines in program, but it's about reducing the time needed
    > for debugging and praying that the thing will work.
    >
    > What I want to say that Java (as a VM) is a cool and Java (the
    > programming language) is a lesser thing.
    >
    > Adiaux
    > Samir
    >
    > P.S:


    Because .net 2.0 destroys it. It's so much easier to get things done
    with .net. Visual Stuido's IDE just makes things to easy.
    CIndy Lee, Mar 12, 2007
    #2
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  3. samir

    Chris Smith Guest

    samir <> wrote:
    > Today, I've googled for "i hate java" and "java sucks".
    >
    > I wasn't really amazed of the number of pages listed.


    You shouldn't be, really. :)

    > biggest problem, I think, is java's coolest part: The huge availale
    > classes and source code . For some one that likes programming it's a
    > source of frustration.


    I doubt it. The biggest problem, almost certainly, is that like any
    other worthwhile programming language, Java requires that you adjust
    your frame of thinking a little. Human beings don't like doing that,
    because looks too much like admitting that one was wrong in the past.
    Many people react to this by projecting their fears as a hatred for
    whatever is encouraging them to change their thinking... in this case,
    Java.

    > For me, all the staff above wasn't my problem. My problem was with
    > accepting that such an amazing VM that can run on multiple
    > achitectures is being wasted using such an archaic programming
    > language.


    You see? Here we have another example.

    --
    Chris Smith
    Chris Smith, Mar 12, 2007
    #3
  4. samir

    Stefan Ram Guest

    "samir" <> writes:
    >Today, I've googled for "i (...) java" and "java (...)".
    >I wasn't really amazed of the number of pages listed.


    »There are just two kinds of languages: the ones everybody
    complains about and the ones nobody uses.«

    (Bjarne Stroustrup)
    Stefan Ram, Mar 12, 2007
    #4
  5. samir

    samir Guest

    On Mar 12, 8:19 pm, Chris Smith <> wrote:
    > I doubt it. The biggest problem, almost certainly, is that like any
    > other worthwhile programming language, Java requires that you adjust
    > your frame of thinking a little.


    Have you ever used Stackless Python, Scheme or encountred the concept
    of generators or coroutines? You really need to adjust your frame of
    thinking to get those things :)

    > Human beings don't like doing that,
    > because looks too much like admitting that one was wrong in the past.


    That's correct! It's in fact a handicap. You won't be able to learn
    from your errors if you can't admit that what you were wrong.

    > Many people react to this by projecting their fears as a hatred for
    > whatever is encouraging them to change their thinking... in this case,
    > Java.


    I think that the success of java attracts maniacs :). Fears and
    hatered must be projected on Microsoft and VB :D not on java.


    > You see? Here we have another example.


    I like flames >:)

    Adiaux
    Samir
    samir, Mar 12, 2007
    #5
  6. samir

    Jason Cavett Guest

    On Mar 12, 3:07 pm, "CIndy Lee" <> wrote:
    > On Mar 12, 11:55 am, "samir" <> wrote:
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > > Today, I've googled for "i hate java" and "java sucks".

    >
    > > I wasn't really amazed of the number of pages listed. I can imagine
    > > the frustration of some newbie when, first, tweeking the installation
    > > or struggling with some IDEs that consume "astronomical" (three years
    > > ago, my computer had 16mb of ram : ) amounts of memory. But the
    > > biggest problem, I think, is java's coolest part: The huge availale
    > > classes and source code . For some one that likes programming it's a
    > > source of frustration. First, you know that what ever you're doing
    > > have been done. Then, you get simply lost when learning: What class'
    > > should I start with? How do I choose one?...

    >
    > > For the rest, the problem is with java the programming language (not
    > > the virtual machine): Java is seen by many people as a toy programming
    > > language. No multiple inheritance, garbage collection and the
    > > templates are childish.

    >
    > > For me, all the staff above wasn't my problem. My problem was with
    > > accepting that such an amazing VM that can run on multiple
    > > achitectures is being wasted using such an archaic programming
    > > language. So, I've tried some of the available
    > > "alternatives" (unfortunately, most of these alternatives aren't yet
    > > ready to compete with Java). The one that had my attention the most is
    > > Jython. The power of python within a Java VM :)

    >
    > > So, I started tweeking the beast and found that, not only programming
    > > was more fun, but also more productive: It's not about reducing the
    > > number of lines in program, but it's about reducing the time needed
    > > for debugging and praying that the thing will work.

    >
    > > What I want to say that Java (as a VM) is a cool and Java (the
    > > programming language) is a lesser thing.

    >
    > > Adiaux
    > > Samir

    >
    > > P.S:

    >
    > Because .net 2.0 destroys it. It's so much easier to get things done
    > with .net. Visual Stuido's IDE just makes things to easy.- Hide quoted text -
    >
    > - Show quoted text -


    > Visual Stuido's IDE just makes things to easy.


    Normally I would agree with you, but Eclipse has made so many leaps
    and bounds that it's just as (or really really close) easy to use.
    Jason Cavett, Mar 12, 2007
    #6
  7. samir

    Chris Uppal Guest

    Stefan Ram wrote:

    > »There are just two kinds of languages: the ones everybody
    > complains about and the ones nobody uses.«
    >
    > (Bjarne Stroustrup)


    It is entirely understandable that he should omit all mention of a third
    category of language -- the ones that people complain about even if they
    /don't/ use them.

    (Other perenial favourites in this category: COBOL, VB, ...)

    -- chris
    Chris Uppal, Mar 12, 2007
    #7
  8. samir

    Chris Uppal Guest

    samir wrote:

    > What I want to say that Java (as a VM) is a cool and Java (the
    > programming language) is a lesser thing.


    If you haven't already looked at "Scala", then you may find that interesting.
    Or maybe "Nice".

    http://www.scala-lang.org/
    http://nice.sourceforge.net/

    -- chris
    Chris Uppal, Mar 12, 2007
    #8
  9. samir

    Chris Uppal Guest

    Chris Smith wrote:

    > > For me, all the staff above wasn't my problem. My problem was with
    > > accepting that such an amazing VM that can run on multiple
    > > achitectures is being wasted using such an archaic programming
    > > language.

    >
    > You see? Here we have another example.


    You surely are not claiming that Java is /not/ of archaic design ? (In the
    sense of "archaic" that the OP clearly meant -- lacking invaluable features
    which have been commonplace in language design for many decades, and which a
    few modern scripting languages are finally starting to catch up with).

    -- chris
    Chris Uppal, Mar 12, 2007
    #9
  10. samir

    samir Guest

    On Mar 12, 8:37 pm, -berlin.de (Stefan Ram) wrote:
    > "samir" <> writes:
    > >Today, I've googled for "i (...) java" and "java (...)".
    > >I wasn't really amazed of the number of pages listed.

    >
    > »There are just two kinds of languages: the ones everybody
    > complains about and the ones nobody uses.«
    >
    > (Bjarne Stroustrup)


    Python do not belong to any of those two categories :)
    samir, Mar 12, 2007
    #10
  11. samir

    Mark Space Guest

    Jason Cavett wrote:
    > On Mar 12, 3:07 pm, "CIndy Lee" <> wrote:
    >> Visual Stuido's IDE just makes things to easy.

    >
    > Normally I would agree with you, but Eclipse has made so many leaps
    > and bounds that it's just as (or really really close) easy to use.
    >


    Could elaborate a little on what Eclipse does that is so great? I use
    Netbeans right now and I think it's the bomb. Plus Matisse is free on
    NB. ^_^ But if there's a reason to move to Eclipse I'd like to at least
    hear about it.

    Also, I'm not looking for an IDE flame war, just some perspective from a
    fellow Java user. ^_^ ^_^
    Mark Space, Mar 12, 2007
    #11
  12. samir

    Guest

    On 12 mar, 15:55, "samir" <> wrote:
    > Today, I've googled for "i hate java" and "java sucks".
    >
    > I wasn't really amazed of the number of pages listed. I can imagine
    > the frustration of some newbie when, first, tweeking the installation
    > or struggling with some IDEs that consume "astronomical" (three years
    > ago, my computer had 16mb of ram : ) amounts of memory. But the
    > biggest problem, I think, is java's coolest part: The huge availale
    > classes and source code . For some one that likes programming it's a
    > source of frustration. First, you know that what ever you're doing
    > have been done. Then, you get simply lost when learning: What class'
    > should I start with? How do I choose one?...
    >
    > For the rest, the problem is with java the programming language (not
    > the virtual machine): Java is seen by many people as a toy programming
    > language. No multiple inheritance, garbage collection and the
    > templates are childish.
    >
    > For me, all the staff above wasn't my problem. My problem was with
    > accepting that such an amazing VM that can run on multiple
    > achitectures is being wasted using such an archaic programming
    > language. So, I've tried some of the available
    > "alternatives" (unfortunately, most of these alternatives aren't yet
    > ready to compete with Java). The one that had my attention the most is
    > Jython. The power of python within a Java VM :)
    >
    > So, I started tweeking the beast and found that, not only programming
    > was more fun, but also more productive: It's not about reducing the
    > number of lines in program, but it's about reducing the time needed
    > for debugging and praying that the thing will work.
    >
    > What I want to say that Java (as a VM) is a cool and Java (the
    > programming language) is a lesser thing.
    >
    > Adiaux
    > Samir
    >
    > P.S:



    Well, I think that startup speed of Java (as a VM) is the main
    inconvenience.

    gethostbyname
    , Mar 12, 2007
    #12
  13. samir

    Lew Guest

    I love Java.

    I don't require perfection, just utility. It has plenty of that.

    It could be a mistake to malign VB. That's a pretty useful language also.

    -- Lew
    Lew, Mar 12, 2007
    #13
  14. Mark Space wrote:
    > Jason Cavett wrote:
    >> On Mar 12, 3:07 pm, "CIndy Lee" <> wrote:
    >>> Visual Stuido's IDE just makes things to easy.

    >>
    >> Normally I would agree with you, but Eclipse has made so many leaps
    >> and bounds that it's just as (or really really close) easy to use.
    >>

    >
    > Could elaborate a little on what Eclipse does that is so great? I use
    > Netbeans right now and I think it's the bomb. Plus Matisse is free on
    > NB. ^_^ But if there's a reason to move to Eclipse I'd like to at least
    > hear about it.


    The main thing is that the incremental compiler gives you a much more
    "alive" sense of what you're doing -- and Build is typically subsecond.
    I've been mucking about a little with NetBeans, but I have to say that,
    after Eclipse, it feels clunky.

    I've been doing this since 1965. I've used punched cards, Selectric
    terminals, ISPF/PDF, and quite a few PC IDEs. NetBeans feels like Yet
    Another IDE. Eclipse feels like The Next Step. It makes the left side of
    my brain dance.

    --
    John W. Kennedy
    "The pathetic hope that the White House will turn a Caligula into a
    Marcus Aurelius is as naïve as the fear that ultimate power inevitably
    corrupts."
    -- James D. Barber (1930-2004)
    * TagZilla 0.066 * http://tagzilla.mozdev.org
    John W. Kennedy, Mar 13, 2007
    #14
  15. samir wrote:
    > I wasn't really amazed of the number of pages listed. I can imagine
    > the frustration of some newbie when, first, tweeking the installation
    > or struggling with some IDEs that consume "astronomical" (three years
    > ago, my computer had 16mb of ram : )


    You used an outdated computer 3 years ago. Not really Javas fault.

    > amounts of memory. But the
    > biggest problem, I think, is java's coolest part: The huge availale
    > classes and source code . For some one that likes programming it's a
    > source of frustration. First, you know that what ever you're doing
    > have been done. Then, you get simply lost when learning: What class'
    > should I start with? How do I choose one?...
    >
    > For the rest, the problem is with java the programming language (not
    > the virtual machine): Java is seen by many people as a toy programming
    > language. No multiple inheritance, garbage collection and the
    > templates are childish.


    I think most agree that multiple inheritance and explicit deallocation
    of memory is a bad thing.

    C++ templates can do some things that Java generics can not. And
    vice versa. They are simply relative different concepts.

    > For me, all the staff above wasn't my problem. My problem was with
    > accepting that such an amazing VM that can run on multiple
    > achitectures is being wasted using such an archaic programming
    > language. So, I've tried some of the available
    > "alternatives" (unfortunately, most of these alternatives aren't yet
    > ready to compete with Java). The one that had my attention the most is
    > Jython. The power of python within a Java VM :)
    >
    > So, I started tweeking the beast and found that, not only programming
    > was more fun, but also more productive: It's not about reducing the
    > number of lines in program, but it's about reducing the time needed
    > for debugging and praying that the thing will work.


    If you like that type of language then fine. You may also want
    to check JRuby and Groovy out.

    I do not think you need to try jgnat (Ada).

    :)

    > What I want to say that Java (as a VM) is a cool and Java (the
    > programming language) is a lesser thing.


    Your choice.

    One size does not fit all.

    Arne
    =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?=, Mar 13, 2007
    #15
  16. Mark Space wrote:
    > Jason Cavett wrote:
    >> On Mar 12, 3:07 pm, "CIndy Lee" <> wrote:
    >>> Visual Stuido's IDE just makes things to easy.

    >>
    >> Normally I would agree with you, but Eclipse has made so many leaps
    >> and bounds that it's just as (or really really close) easy to use.

    >
    > Could elaborate a little on what Eclipse does that is so great? I use
    > Netbeans right now and I think it's the bomb. Plus Matisse is free on
    > NB. ^_^ But if there's a reason to move to Eclipse I'd like to at least
    > hear about it.


    Hm. VE is free on Eclipse too. You may prefer Matisse over VE, but
    I do not understand the "free" point.

    Arne
    =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?=, Mar 13, 2007
    #16
  17. CIndy Lee wrote:
    > Because .net 2.0 destroys it. It's so much easier to get things done
    > with .net. Visual Stuido's IDE just makes things to easy.


    Considering that a .NET user is stupid enough to post something
    like that in a Java newsgroup, then one can have some doubts
    about what .NET is going to destroy ...

    Arne
    =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?=, Mar 13, 2007
    #17
  18. samir wrote:
    > On Mar 12, 8:37 pm, -berlin.de (Stefan Ram) wrote:
    >> "samir" <> writes:
    >>> Today, I've googled for "i (...) java" and "java (...)".
    >>> I wasn't really amazed of the number of pages listed.

    >> »There are just two kinds of languages: the ones everybody
    >> complains about and the ones nobody uses.«
    >>
    >> (Bjarne Stroustrup)

    >
    > Python do not belong to any of those two categories :)


    Python is not that widely used.

    Arne
    =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?=, Mar 13, 2007
    #18
  19. samir

    Chris Smith Guest

    samir <> wrote:
    > On Mar 12, 8:19 pm, Chris Smith <> wrote:
    > > I doubt it. The biggest problem, almost certainly, is that like any
    > > other worthwhile programming language, Java requires that you adjust
    > > your frame of thinking a little.

    >
    > Have you ever used Stackless Python, Scheme or encountred the concept
    > of generators or coroutines? You really need to adjust your frame of
    > thinking to get those things :)


    There was another ingredient I forgot that helps give rise to the
    sometimes severe hatred of Java: people are forced to use it. Because
    of Java's market position, a large number of people need to learn it in
    order to remain employed (or, perhaps, employable).

    Many other languages, including those you mention above, lack that
    ingredient. By and large, the majority of their users have made the
    choice to use them. That insulates them from bad will, to an extent.
    You can bet that the very instant that Scheme is adopted by a large
    number of corporate products with large development teams, you'll see
    far more hatred tossed around for Scheme than you ever did for Java.

    --
    Chris Smith
    Chris Smith, Mar 13, 2007
    #19
  20. samir wrote:
    > Today, I've googled for "i hate java" and "java sucks".
    >
    > I wasn't really amazed of the number of pages listed. I can imagine
    > the frustration of some newbie when, first, tweeking the installation
    > or struggling with some IDEs that consume "astronomical" (three years
    > ago, my computer had 16mb of ram : ) amounts of memory. But the
    > biggest problem, I think, is java's coolest part: The huge availale
    > classes and source code . For some one that likes programming it's a
    > source of frustration. First, you know that what ever you're doing
    > have been done. Then, you get simply lost when learning: What class'
    > should I start with? How do I choose one?...


    Looking at the CS curriculum and experiences of fellow students, I can
    see why some people hate Java: it's the first programming language they
    use and it's difficult for them. I know many people who get caught up in
    one annoying bug and then blast it as a reason that XYZ "sucks" or
    "should rot in hell", etc. Even more experience: I know people who hate
    programming in C because of the difficulty with pointers.

    > For the rest, the problem is with java the programming language (not
    > the virtual machine): Java is seen by many people as a toy programming
    > language. No multiple inheritance, garbage collection and the
    > templates are childish.


    Multiple inheritance can get quickly problematic, AI used LISP mostly
    because it had GC, and C++ templates can get ugly sometimes (STL,
    anyone?). People will complain that Java goes too far/not enough until
    the end of time.

    > For me, all the staff above wasn't my problem. My problem was with
    > accepting that such an amazing VM that can run on multiple
    > achitectures is being wasted using such an archaic programming
    > language. So, I've tried some of the available
    > "alternatives" (unfortunately, most of these alternatives aren't yet
    > ready to compete with Java). The one that had my attention the most is
    > Jython. The power of python within a Java VM :)


    Python -- the most backwards-incompatible language I've ever seen. As a
    side note, Java (the VM) is the most backwards-compatible language I've
    ever seen. Between Java 1.0 and Java 1.6, despite all of the features
    implemented on the programming language, functionally, the only changes
    in the virtual machine have been a shift in invokespecial, the
    deprecation of jsr/ret, and the newer, more stringent bytecode
    verification. If you changed a class version 50.0 to 45.0, /the code
    would still run/. That's impressive.
    Joshua Cranmer, Mar 13, 2007
    #20
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