[Code Challenge] WxPython versus Tkinter.

B

Bryan

I said "US English", not just English, and you didn't say
"I don't think all developers think about i18n", you said "I'm guessing none".
Big difference.  I think your attitude to this is US-only.

Ah! Now I understand your comment. Yes, without realizing it I was
referring only to software developers in the US not having an
internationalization mindset. I should have been more clear, and
obviously I was making a poor generalization.

Do non-US-based developers focus a lot on accessibility too, since
that's what really started this whole sub-thread?
 
R

rusi

Just trying to sift the BS from the real issues

Heres a list of the issues relating to GUI toolkits


Look
Nativity-1 (as in apps look like other apps on the OS)
Nativity-2 (as in uses 'bare-metal' and not a separate interpreter)
Themeing (ttk)
Efficiency (extra interpreter)
Cross Platform
Stability (crashes on some OSes)
Programmability
Accessibility
i18n
Availability of gui builder
Licence
 
B

Bob Martin

in 650680 20110125 151901 Bryan said:
Ah! Now I understand your comment. Yes, without realizing it I was
referring only to software developers in the US not having an
internationalization mindset. I should have been more clear, and
obviously I was making a poor generalization.

Do non-US-based developers focus a lot on accessibility too, since
that's what really started this whole sub-thread?

I don't think so; it was never a requirement for the software I wrote,
though I know I had some blind users. But NLS was a must and it has
to be designed in from the start - very difficult to add it later.
 
R

rantingrick

Just trying to sift the BS from the real issues

Heres a list of the issues relating to GUI toolkits


Finally someone who knows what the argument is really about! Thanks
rusi!

There is no doubt wxPython has better look and feel. (+1 wx)
Nativity-1 (as in apps look like other apps on the OS)

Again (+1 wx)
Nativity-2 (as in uses 'bare-metal' and not a separate interpreter)

Well Tk uses a separate interpretor so (+1 wx)
Themeing (ttk)

Yes Tk has themes now. Not sure about how useful they are and what wx
offers so (+0 both)
Efficiency (extra interpreter)

Well wx is by far more efficient (+1 wx)
Cross Platform

Wx is cross platform but has some warts. We need to create an
abstraction API to insulate the new users from segfaults and make wx a
safe cross platform GUI so (+1 Tkinter)
Stability (crashes on some OSes)

Wx is stable but does has some warts as is. (+1 Tkinter)
Programmability

Wx needs a better API whereas Tkinter is ok (+1 Tkinter)
Accessibility

Well we know Tkinter in not accessable (+1 wx)

(+1 wx)
Availability of gui builder

+0 both

Tkinter is completely open source and wx is LGPL. Some find this to be
a problem however i don't (+0 both)


Tkinter: 3
wxPython: 6
 
R

rantingrick

I don't think so; it was never a requirement for the software I wrote,
though I know I had some blind users.  But NLS was a must and it has
to be designed in from the start - very difficult to add it later.

Thats the point i keep trying to make about accessibility. Those who
are affected directly by accessibility (the users) are not in control
of accessibilities inclusion. However those that are in control are
twice removed from the torments of needing accessibility.

What is wrong with this picture?

Well specifically, if the developers refuse (or are oblivious) to
include accessibility support then the users are just screwed! Plain
and simple. GUI library developers have a responsibility to include
support for accessibility because if they don't no one else can!
 
T

Terry Reedy

"I bet not much" - there you go again ;-)
You'll find that nearly all software used in Europe (and most other parts)
is internationalized or it wouldn't stand a chance.

I suspected that is true of today's Europe, but do you have any evidence
that software written in Japan, for instance, is any more
internationalized than US software? I would expect the opposite since
they tend to use, and still use their Japanese-only encodings with their
unique writing system.
 
T

Terry Reedy

Just trying to sift the BS from the real issues

Heres a list of the issues relating to GUI toolkits


Look
Nativity-1 (as in apps look like other apps on the OS)
Nativity-2 (as in uses 'bare-metal' and not a separate interpreter)
Themeing (ttk)
Efficiency (extra interpreter)
Cross Platform
Stability (crashes on some OSes)
Programmability
Accessibility
i18n
Availability of gui builder
Licence

Good as far as it goes, but this list leaves out several requirements
(already posted by me, Steve Hansen, and others) for a Python 3 new
stdlib module. It does not matter for the stdlib if wxpython is 3 times
as good as tkinter, by some measure, as long as it is ineligible.
 
R

rantingrick

It does not matter for the stdlib if wxpython is 3 times
as good as tkinter, by some measure, as long as it is ineligible.

Terry, i think rusi was just posting a general list of some likable
attributes of a 21st century GUI library. No were did he mention the
words "wx" or "python".

------------------
The Sad Reality
------------------
Sadly the fact is that the "elite" have already made a decision. And
they don't care how bad "Tkinter" is for Python's stdlib or how good
"GUI library X" is for Python's stdlib. They do not want to make a
change. They are in bed with TclTk. They have lost all vision. This is
the reality.

---------------------------
What can we do about it?
---------------------------
However, like all totalitarian regimes, when the peasants start
demanding equality and then storm the castle... then and only then
will the closed minded and selfish elite listen! So we need to make
noise, a lot of noise. And we need to be persistent. We need to demand
equality through accessibility. We need to demand feature rich
libraries that do not cripple us like Tkinter. We need to demand that
Pythons community re-establish a vision for the future. A vision that
is representative of ALL the people -- and not a few fat cats at the
top.

--------------------------------
From Dictatorship to Democracy
--------------------------------
I have time and time again given examples of how python-dev can get a
real idea of what the wider community is thinking. One of these ideas
would be to send out a "Tkinter Removal Warning" that would be
displayed when the Python installer was run and every time Tkinter is
imported. The warning would show a website were people could vote to
keep Tkinter in the stdlib. This is the only way we can truly
understand what our community members are thinking about Tkinter.
Anything else is purely speculation.

-----------------------------------------------
The silence of the peasants, and an awakening
-----------------------------------------------
Many folks out there share our views that Tkinter is a weight around
Python's neck, however they are too fearful to speak out for fear of
excommunication (the kill file!). However i must tell all of you that
just as other nations have risen against their own brutal governments
and survived, so to shall you IF you combine your voices as one. There
is power in numbers that no "elite theocracy" can deny. United we can
re-establish the original dream that build Python. Guido forged the
path and we must not let his work be in vain. But now the community
has been so overrun with trolls, naysayers, and negative mind sets
that infect any semblance of civility and remove good judgment from
our coffers. We are doomed unless we re-awake the dream.
 
O

Octavian Rasnita

From: "Bryan" <[email protected]>
Do non-US-based developers focus a lot on accessibility too, since
that's what really started this whole sub-thread?

Almost nobody focuses on accessibility, and nobody should focus on accessibility.

If you target a program for your national population and your national population speak a single language, then no, you won't need to use I18N.

If you create a graphic design application so you evidently target it to the sighted people, it is obviously that you won't need to make an accessible application.

But if you make a program that could be used by the whole world then you should use I18N and that program should also be accessible to everyone, not only sighted, or only English-speakers, because otherwise that application creates discrimination.
Usually I18N is offered using gettext so the users that want that application translated in their language can do the translation themselves, but if the application uses Tkinter, those who need a screen reader cannot do absolutely anything to make it accessible.

And Tyler's idea that if he finds an inaccessible application he can try to makes its own is not a valid idea, because not all the millions of users are programmers.

Octavian
 
O

Octavian Rasnita

From: "Terry Reedy said:
Good as far as it goes, but this list leaves out several requirements
(already posted by me, Steve Hansen, and others) for a Python 3 new
stdlib module. It does not matter for the stdlib if wxpython is 3 times
as good as tkinter, by some measure, as long as it is ineligible.



Why is WxPython ineligible?
I ask because I want to be sure I understand. I remember just that reason that there are no enough maintainers in order to be a good default GUI for Python, which is a real problem if it is true.

Octavian
 
O

Octavian Rasnita

From: "Bob Martin said:
I don't think so; it was never a requirement for the software I wrote,
though I know I had some blind users. But NLS was a must and it has
to be designed in from the start - very difficult to add it later.




:)
Remembering about MSAA (MS Active Accessibility), what you said makes me think to "Active Discrimination".

It seems that for comercial reasons those who need to use a screen reader are discriminated because it is not profitable to make the effort to make an accessible program.
This is a valid problem and the companies can't and shouldn't be forced to offer accessibility if this causes them financial damages.
That's why the prefered solutions for creating a GUI should be one which is relatively accessible out of the box, because in that case the programmers don't even need to think to accessibility, but it is offered.

Octavian
 
O

Octavian Rasnita

From: "Terry Reedy" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2011 8:07 PM
Subject: Re: WxPython versus Tkinter.

I suspected that is true of today's Europe, but do you have any evidence
that software written in Japan, for instance, is any more
internationalized than US software? I would expect the opposite since
they tend to use, and still use their Japanese-only encodings with their
unique writing system.



Yes Terry, you are right. In the cases where the software is targetted only to japanese speakers (but I can't imagine an example) making only japanese applications is OK.
But as probably most of the software could be used by those who can't read hiragana/katakana/kanji if it would offer I18N, then it is not OK.

Nobody should be blamed for making a bad software. Not the americans, not the japanese and not the europeans (because in Europe there are also a lot of uni-lingual applications).
The bad software which is not accessible for some people, (because the language is not accessible or because the interface is not accessible) is usually made because of commercial constraints, or because of time constraints, or simply because of lack of knowledge about these issues.

The people should be very well informed, and constantly, and not only on a single thread ona single mailing list and after many years or even generations, the things will change hopefully.

The ones that should be blamed are those who know about these inaccessibility problems but simply don't care.

Octavian
 
E

Emile van Sebille

On 1/25/2011 11:25 AM rantingrick said...

<snip same old same old>

Classic insanity.

Emile
 
E

Emile van Sebille

On 1/25/2011 11:38 AM Octavian Rasnita said...
Why is WxPython ineligible?

I think Terry's point was compatibility with python3 -- which wx
apparently isn't yet.

Emile
 
M

Martin v. Loewis

You'll find that nearly all software used in Europe (and most other parts)
is internationalized or it wouldn't stand a chance.

You mean, in lines of code? I very much doubt that. A lot of software
gets written, in particular for web servers, that is only German, around
here. Nobody thinks this is wrong, since the audience is expected to
speak German, anyway.

I think all the shell scripts that people write every day account for
more lines of code than operating systems, office software, server
applications, web frameworks combined. And these one-time use pieces
of software are certainly not internationalized - not even in companies
that have a policy that all software must support i18n.

If you want examples, here are some:

http://www.heise.de/ct/foren/ (web forum)
http://arztsuche.spiegel.de/ (medical directory)
http://portal.mytum.de/termine/index_html (university calendar - the
software itself is bilingual; the content is not at all)
etc.

Regards,
Martin
 
M

Michael Torrie

I hardly think that your tone, attitude and arguments are going to help
you in your battle to prove that WXPython is superior to anything at
all, if you can't manage to provide cross-platform bug-free code.

Sadly you're wasting your breath. He just doesn't understand what you
are saying. Further he honestly does not think he has an attitude or
fallacious arguments. I find his posts fascinating, really. In the
meantime I suppose we can reply for sport (not a fair fight really), or
just leave him be.
 
M

Michael Torrie

Wait a minute, i am confused? What language is Python written in? Oh
thats right Lisp! I am so dumb. How did i even get this job? :)

What job is this? Inquiring minds wish to know.
 
R

rantingrick

What job is this?  Inquiring minds wish to know.

What job is this? Inquiring minds wish to know.


Well my job is that of any humble community member. To be an intrical
part of a large heterogeneous group of folks all working toward a
common goal, who may *not* always and completely agree, however, all
of whom respect one another on a basic and fundamental level. Each
member has a responsibility to listen contently to his fellow members
ideas and offer objective responses devoid of emotional baggage. Each
member should gracefully and selflessly help those who are new to the
group to feel more welcome. And most importantly we should all
collectively keep our minds focused for the future of Python. We must
not let Python grow stagnate. No, we must constantly push for further
evolution. These changes will at times seem too painful to bear, that
can be expected. However the changes are vital for our future
evolution. For without change we would squander all the hard work of
the many who have come before us. But together, united in community,
and in vision, we shall keep the Python dream alive for many years to
come!
 

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