is there a way ..... any way

[Andries]

Hello folks,

I tried lurking on but it stays jibberish to me.
Questions asked are responded with a jargon that is beyond my
comprehension and often in a tone you'll think twice to ask the next
question. So this is too heavy for me (yet?).
Is there a way that simple mortals can ask questions how to do things
with perl/ work with perl. Is there a newsgroup?
ok ok RTFM you'll say.
Obviously you don't understand my question and despair.

Andries Meijer

 

[Gunnar Hjalmarsson]

I tried lurking on but it stays jibberish to me. Questions asked
are responded with a jargon that is beyond my comprehension and
often in a tone you'll think twice to ask the next question. So
this is too heavy for me (yet?).

Actually, if you are referring to the "Novice..." thread you started,
you got plenty of useful advice. It's correct that nobody posted a
complete program, which is quite in order.

Please understand that this is not a help desk, it's not "write my
program for me for free" service!! (You also wrote me privately, and -
stupid as I may be - I sent you a complete program. Not sure if it
does exactly what you want, but it's a start.)

Is there a way that simple mortals can ask questions how to do
things with perl/ work with perl.

Absolutely. Provided, though, that those "mortals" *show* (not just
say) that they are interested in improving their Perl skill *and* that
they have made reasonable own efforts before posting.

ok ok RTFM you'll say.

Yes. It can't be said too often.

Obviously you don't understand my question and despair.

If you know no Perl, and are in such a hurry, the natural thing to do
is to *hire* somebody who helps you.

 

[Robert]

Hello folks,

I tried lurking on but it stays jibberish to me.
Questions asked are responded with a jargon that is beyond my
comprehension and often in a tone you'll think twice to ask the next
question. So this is too heavy for me (yet?).
Is there a way that simple mortals can ask questions how to do things
with perl/ work with perl. Is there a newsgroup?
ok ok RTFM you'll say.
Obviously you don't understand my question and despair.

Andries Meijer

There is a Perl beginnings list. That would probably be good for you.

http://learn.perl.org/

 

[Gunnar Hjalmarsson]

There is a Perl beginnings list. That would probably be good for
you.

http://learn.perl.org/

Even if I have never tried that list, I take for granted that you
cannot expect anybody to write your programs for you there either.

 

[Andries]

Actually, if you are referring to the "Novice..." thread you started,
you got plenty of useful advice. It's correct that nobody posted a
complete program, which is quite in order.

Please understand that this is not a help desk, it's not "write my
program for me for free" service!! (You also wrote me privately, and -
stupid as I may be - I sent you a complete program. Not sure if it
does exactly what you want, but it's a start.)


Absolutely. Provided, though, that those "mortals" *show* (not just
say) that they are interested in improving their Perl skill *and* that
they have made reasonable own efforts before posting.


Yes. It can't be said too often.


If you know no Perl, and are in such a hurry, the natural thing to do
is to *hire* somebody who helps you.

Gunnar,

point taken. I just wanted a start that's all.
If you are new to something, like i am then it is helpfull to have a
start.
You helped me very much but the program you gave me is not the end. It
is a start for me. I can understand what it "does" and helps me to
improve my skills.
I can now look in the faqs and docs and look to my specific needs.
People like me learn from doing and trying and stumbling.
I think, although i can understand your point, that you have a rather
pessimistic view.
When i wanted just a program i would pay (of course). i wanted a
program to learn.
So you helped me to learn. And that's all that i wanted. It was never
my intention to take advantage of anyone.

Andries

 

[Walter Roberson]

:I tried lurking on but it stays jibberish to me.
:Questions asked are responded with a jargon that is beyond my
:comprehension and often in a tone you'll think twice to ask the next
:question. So this is too heavy for me (yet?).

There is certainly some truth in what you say, Andries. In my
experience, some of the people who post here (even some of the regulars)
often seem very harsh unless you ask your questions exactly the "right"
way. The "experience" of clpm is a lot different than in most of
the other technical newsgroups that I frequent, but I understand that
there are some newsgroups that are *much* worse.

As I understand, one part of the reason that people can seem so harsh
is that clpm is not really considered to be a newsgroup about how to
program in perl, or about how to install perl, and especially not a
newsgroup about how to program in general (happening to use perl as the
language): clpm is, I understand, considered to be a newsgroup about
the perl language itself. For example, one can ask about a particular
obscure feature of perl, or talk about the future of perl, but to be
"in", you are expected to be talking abstractly. Asking about basic
features and how to fix simple programs is, unfortunately, often
responded to with what many would think of as hostility.


:Is there a way that simple mortals can ask questions how to do things
:with perl/ work with perl.

In practice, you can get away with a fair bit in clpm, if you know
a few key points:

- Do not post just asking whether something will work. The answer
you get back will be some variation on "Well, what happened when you
tried it?"

- If you do not understand something that is in the manuals, then
when you post, you should make sure that your posting shows clearly
that you have *read* the manuals. Do not just say "I don't know
how to do X": say "I've read the man page about X, and this sentance
confuses me, because I would interpret it as meaning Y, but when
I tried doing that with this bit of code, Z, I got back a response
that was different than Y."

- If something seems to be going wrong, then post a *short* example
of code that does not give the result you think it should. And
make sure that you 'use strict' and 'use warnings' in your example,
and that you run the example code -- if you just type the code in
from memory, then people may get hung up about any minor mistakes you
made.

- Take the time to read the manual pages first. Look through all of them,
even if you do not understand them the first time around. Become accustomed
to what -kind- of information is to be found on each manual page.

- Read the perl FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions). Again, if you don't
understand part of one of them the first time, that's okay -- but
if your question is answered in one of the FAQs and it appears that you
did not even *look* there, then people in clpm will often get impatient
with you.

- One of the most important points is that your posting should show
that you *tried*. perl is a big language, and it is okay to not understand
part of it, but people will tend to be most helpful they can tell
that you put some real effort into finding the answer yourself.

- People do not like to feel that you are taking advantage of them,
so never demand an answer or just expect them to fix your program,
and never ever ask people to do your homework for you.
Be polite, show that you are trying, and show that you are here to
learn, not to get others to do things you cannot be bothered to do.

- Try not to take harsh answers too personally. clpm can be stressful,
but keep in mind that the approach that a number of people in the
group have is the "tough love" approach -- not intended to offend,
but intended to teach people how to be more self-sufficient.


Even when you get to a much more advanced stage, and understand much of
what people say, and get to know the people who post a lot, and start
contributing answers yourself, you may still encounter what seems like
hostility from time to time. There are a lot of people who do not read
the newsgroup all the time, and you might get a response from someone
who has not happened to see your previous well-thought answers and
efforts to help people. So *sometimes*, in my experience, what you have
to do is "push back", and firmly (but politely) show the other person
that you know what you are talking about, that their snap answer did
not take some important considerations into account, and that their
answer was not entirely reasonable. Some of the regular posters have a
bit of a tendancy to criticize and "put down" questions that they do
not understand on first reading -- but those same people, once they do
understand, can turn out to be very helpful in suggesting interesting
approaches. Nearly all the regulars have something interesting to say,
once they respect that you are at least -trying-.


The last thing I would suggest, is that if you are going to hang
around clpm for a long time, is to use a newsreader that has a 'killfile'
function. Sometimes 'flamewars' start in clpm, and sometimes you may
find some authors that have interesting points but tend to end up
antagonizing people. It's only a newsgroup, you don't have to read
everything: learn when to ignore discussions or people that are
wearing you down more than they are helping you learn.

 

[Tad McClellan]

Is there a way that simple mortals can ask questions how to do things
with perl/ work with perl. Is there a newsgroup?

Yes, and you are in it.

ok ok RTFM you'll say.

Well of course.

Spend ten minutes trying to find the answer to your question yourself.

If that doesn't work, then post away!

Have you seen the Posting Guidelines that are posted here frequently?

Obviously you don't understand my question and despair.

Perhaps you have been looking at reference docs when what you
need it a tutorial?

If you have programmed in any other language, I recommend "Learning Perl".

If not, I recommend "Elements of Programming with Perl".

 

[anon]

Andries wrote...

Hello folks,

I tried lurking on but it stays jibberish to me.
Questions asked are responded with a jargon that is beyond my
comprehension and often in a tone you'll think twice to ask the next
question. So this is too heavy for me (yet?).
Is there a way that simple mortals can ask questions how to do things
with perl/ work with perl. Is there a newsgroup?
ok ok RTFM you'll say.
Obviously you don't understand my question and despair.

Andries Meijer

Hi Andries,

I see you've already received some very comprehensive (and patient and
courteous) replies to your questions. Every reply you get is intended to
be helpful in some way. If it's not then explain why not or ask for
clarification (after you've RTM). If it is then say thank you. You
should get more involved in your own threads. The key to a good answer
is a good question.

guide here:
http://catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

 

[Jim Cochrane]

If you know no Perl, and are in such a hurry, the natural thing to do
is to *hire* somebody who helps you.

Alternatively, you might realize that if you really want to learn how to do
something substantial (even if not particularly advanced), you will be
greatly rewarded if you let go of your impatience, slow down, relax
and enjoy the learning process. Buy a good perl book with some good
examples and have fun with it. ("Learning Perl" may be a good place to
start.)

Just a suggestion.

 

[Jim Cochrane]

Even if I have never tried that list, I take for granted that you
cannot expect anybody to write your programs for you there either.

Unless you pay them appropriately for it

 

[Jim Cochrane]

:I tried lurking on but it stays jibberish to me.
:Questions asked are responded with a jargon that is beyond my
:comprehension and often in a tone you'll think twice to ask the next
:question. So this is too heavy for me (yet?).

There is certainly some truth in what you say, Andries. In my
experience, some of the people who post here (even some of the regulars)
often seem very harsh unless you ask your questions exactly the "right"
way. The "experience" of clpm is a lot different than in most of
the other technical newsgroups that I frequent, but I understand that
there are some newsgroups that are *much* worse.

...
:Is there a way that simple mortals can ask questions how to do things
:with perl/ work with perl.

In practice, you can get away with a fair bit in clpm, if you know
a few key points:

- Do not post just asking whether something will work. The answer
you get back will be some variation on "Well, what happened when you
tried it?"

Also, if you run a program you've been working on and find it doesn't do
what you expect it should, don't just post saying "It doesn't work."
Instead, give some information, such as what you expect the program to do
and what it actually does, including output, error messages, and any other
relevant behavior.

 

[Randal L. Schwartz]

Walter> As I understand, one part of the reason that people can seem so harsh
Walter> is that clpm is not really considered to be a newsgroup about how to
Walter> program in perl, or about how to install perl, and especially not a
Walter> newsgroup about how to program in general (happening to use perl as the
Walter> language): clpm is, I understand, considered to be a newsgroup about
Walter> the perl language itself. For example, one can ask about a particular
Walter> obscure feature of perl, or talk about the future of perl, but to be
Walter> "in", you are expected to be talking abstractly. Asking about basic
Walter> features and how to fix simple programs is, unfortunately, often
Walter> responded to with what many would think of as hostility.

I think you're missing some of the history of this group.

The biggest problem that CLPM has faced historically is the rise of
Perl as the CGI language of choice, being a bright shiny object for
tens of thousands of web-squatter-wannabes. The problem is that all
the Perl resources got slammed pretty heavily in the late 90s, and
we're still feeling the sting of that.

I really want to answer every question here. I answer as many as I
can. I know many of the other experts here (and the experts who have
already left) feel the same. But when I have to keep answering the
same questions week after week, I get a bit bored, and wonder why
people don't type "perldoc" or "www.google.com" or "groups.google.com"
often enough. And then there's the group of lazy bas**rds who want me
to debug their program for them, a job better done by someone for
hire, not a free resource.

This group is as much about learning Perl from day one as you can get.
We're just a bit gun shy.

print "Just another Perl hacker,"

 

[Henry Law]

Perhaps you have been looking at reference docs when what you
need it a tutorial?

If you have programmed in any other language, I recommend "Learning Perl".

If not, I recommend "Elements of Programming with Perl".

This is a vital point, Andries. Over the years I've acquired a fair
familiarity with a number of programming languages, and have mostly
taught myself from reference manuals, tutorial books and reading other
people's code (a vital resource). I had found that, in general, a
reference manual was enough to get me going: my basic knowledge of the
things that *should* be possible, plus a reference manual to show me
how those things were done in language "x", would be enough to get me
going, after which reading good code provided the refinement. (OK,
OK, that didn't work for APL, but that's another story!)

When I turned to Perl about a year ago, though, I found that this way
of learning was absolutely not enough. It's no criticism (in fact it
may be a compliment) but the reference manuals won't teach you how to
program properly in Perl, at least not in a sensible time frame. You
*need* the tutorial books that Tad and others have suggested. Try to
do what I did and borrow them, because you may not need them for ever:
but you do need them now! There are some good resources on the net
too. Get Googling and mail me privately if you can't find 'em; I have
some bookmarks.

Keep on keeping on; we'll get there, you and me.

Henry Law <>< Manchester, England

 

[Tad McClellan]

Walter> As I understand, one part of the reason that people can seem so harsh
Walter> is that clpm is not really considered to be a newsgroup about how to
Walter> program in perl, or about how to install perl, and especially not a
Walter> newsgroup about how to program in general (happening to use perl as the
Walter> language): clpm is, I understand, considered to be a newsgroup about
Walter> the perl language itself. For example, one can ask about a particular
Walter> obscure feature of perl, or talk about the future of perl, but to be
Walter> "in", you are expected to be talking abstractly. Asking about basic
Walter> features and how to fix simple programs is, unfortunately, often
Walter> responded to with what many would think of as hostility.

I think you're missing some of the history of this group.

The biggest problem that CLPM has faced historically is the rise of
Perl as the CGI language of choice, being a bright shiny object for
tens of thousands of web-squatter-wannabes. The problem is that all
the Perl resources got slammed pretty heavily in the late 90s, and
we're still feeling the sting of that.

What makes this Perl newsgroup different other programming language
newsgroups is that Perl sets the bar much lower than say Java or C++.

Here we have both Power Programmers and Non-programmers who
write programs. It's a culture clash between the widely different
backgrounds.

When a non-programmer can't get their Java/C++ "hello world" program
to run, they give up and go elsewhere, and the corresponding newsgroup
doesn't get postings from the Twilight Zone.

 

[Andries]

People,

Your comment to my statements is heartwarming and helps a lot.
Thank you (and i'm not cynical)
The tips on learning how is very usefull.
I lurk on in this newsgroup and will study.
Gunnar helped me a lot by giving me code. This is experimental
material for me. Learning material!
I'll undestand the meaning of this newsgroup and understand your
frustration.
And remember: I"LL BE THERE (even if you don't see me )

Andries

 

[Walter Roberson]

:I really want to answer every question here. I answer as many as I
:can. I know many of the other experts here (and the experts who have
:already left) feel the same. But when I have to keep answering the
:same questions week after week, I get a bit bored, and wonder why
eople don't type "perldoc" or "www.google.com" or "groups.google.com"
ften enough. And then there's the group of lazy bas**rds who want me
:to debug their program for them, a job better done by someone for
:hire, not a free resource.

Randal, I have, to use the cliche, "Been there. Done that." I (amongst
others) have put a lot of work into some of the other technical
hierarchies, and have faced the same challenges (though not to the same
scale.) I know that I have sometimes gotten frustrated myself at
answering the same question for the 4th time on one day, when it has
been obvious that the posters haven't done even preliminary checking
around to find the answers. And I know that from time to time, I have
ranted when I have felt that someone was trying to take advantage of me
(e.g., a time when someone said outright that they never bothered to
even try to read the manual pages because it was 'faster' to post and
let other people answer the question for him.)

And I've had to learn how to "let go" of wanting to answer every
question, because there are too many questions for one person [and when
there are not so many questions and I could handle them all
comfortably, I would have a tendancy to expand into more and more
newsgroups, with more and more complex topics. ] My boss calls it
"delegation", and says that I need to learn how to delegate more.
And it's *hard* for an old perfectionist like me to just let things
sit undone, unanswered, or to hand them off to someone who is going
to spend weeks doing what I could do in a single evening... if only
I didn't have 35 other "top priority" "Do by Yesterday" self-imposed
tasks on my to-do-list.

I am, as some might say, the classic recipie for workaholic burnout.
And oh, did I burn out! and was nearly completely useless for 10 months
before I -started- to recover (I'm still very much recovering, and
still having bad tendancies to slip back into doing too much, wanting
to do everything, wanting to answer every question....)


But for all of that, for the load and stresses, internal and external,
those other technical hierarchies that I'm involved with still come off as
"nicer" places than clpm. [Unless someone mentions Linux -- but the
regulars know better than to encourage the inevitable resulting troll
posting.] We've worked out wordless agreements -- one of the regulars
answers any given repeated question politely (but usually not in detail) if
they feel like it, and if the question is still sitting unanswered after
a few days or a week, then one of the irregular posters will probably
eventually answer it. And if no-one answers it, then we save our
sanity by just letting it go unanswered. When we're getting cranky
from answering over and over again, we back off; someone will either
step in and take our place or they won't. We're not miracle workers,
we're people, and we do what we -reasonably- can, and retire to the
sidelines for a rest when we need to. (And if someone then starts
*demanding* answers, *then* we flame them ;-) )

 

[Randal L. Schwartz]

Walter> And if no-one answers it, then we save our sanity by just
Walter> letting it go unanswered.

Maybe you can afford that luxury in other areas, but there's a lot of
cargo-culted junk in the semi-answers all over the web, and everyone
seems to consider themselves an expert after reading some random web
tutorial. So, what happens in the Perl community is that the absence
of good answers from experts gets filled up with crap answers from
answerer-wannabes. Eeek. And this contributes to the burnout from
the experts.

Perl has an odd learning curve. Because you can accomplish something
so quickly (hello world is one line), you think you can answer
complicated questions about everything (hint: you can't, and should
better be quiet). Also, Perl has had an interesting history, with the
radical change in design styles between Perl4 and Perl5 (and I fear
Perl6 will only make it worse .

So, we get script kiddies that are trying to make a popular Perl4 script
working today, answerers who have only seen such scripts and consider
themselves experts, people who defy authority who won't listen when
an expert tells them they're in one of those first two categories,
and then a few of us that may be burned out from the whole game.

Welcome to Perl. A unique experience, a unique community. Not
nastier, just a bit more polarized.

print "Just another Perl hacker,"; # the first

 

[David K. Wall]

Walter> And if no-one answers it, then we save our sanity by just
Walter> letting it go unanswered.

Maybe you can afford that luxury in other areas, but there's a lot
of cargo-culted junk in the semi-answers all over the web, and
everyone seems to consider themselves an expert after reading some
random web tutorial. So, what happens in the Perl community is
that the absence of good answers from experts gets filled up with
crap answers from answerer-wannabes. Eeek. And this contributes
to the burnout from the experts.

Perl has an odd learning curve. Because you can accomplish
something so quickly (hello world is one line), you think you can
answer complicated questions about everything (hint: you can't,
and should better be quiet).

"Better no answer than a wrong one" is a maxim I've been following
lately. It doesn't stop me from being wrong, but does stop me from
posting when I'm uncertain and don't want to mislead someone.

Even that maxim doesn't stop someone if they're too ignorant to know
they're ignorant. (And that unfortunately can include me.

When I know an answer I sometimes hold off on posting because it
often turns out that someone else will post something that adds
information or a viewpoint I hadn't been aware of. I'm sure there are
plenty of other lurkers who benefit similarly. On behalf of them (or
us), thanks to all of you for what must often seem a thankless task.

One reason not to post much, though, is that some of you seem to be
hooked up to a life-support system that allows you to never leave the
computer, constantly answering posts regardless of the time of day or
day of the week. Do you all ever sleep?

 

[Walter Roberson]

:One reason not to post much, though, is that some of you seem to be
:hooked up to a life-support system that allows you to never leave the
:computer, constantly answering posts regardless of the time of day or
:day of the week. Do you all ever sleep?

I'm not hooked up to a life-support system yet -- but I did spend many
years online and posting so much and at such odd hours that it would
have been hard for anyone out there to tell the difference. Eventually
that lifestyle hit my health, and hit it hard. I'm still learning how
to "let go" and pay attention to what my body is telling me -- still
telling myself "The world won't end if I don't do or answer this
myself."

 

[Tad McClellan]

One reason not to post much, though, is that some of you seem to be
hooked up to a life-support system that allows you to never leave the
computer, constantly answering posts regardless of the time of day or
day of the week. Do you all ever sleep?

I take cat-naps while writing

use warnings and strict
check open's return value
don't use ampersands on function calls
don't use dollar-digit vars unless match succeeded
...

answers for the 50th time.

I spend so much time on those type of posts that Real Sleep is not necessary.