# Is this a bug or a feature?

M

#### Martin Jansson

irb(main):002:0> i=1
=> 1
irb(main):003:0> until (i+=1)>5
irb(main):004:1> p i
irb(main):005:1> end
2
3
4
5
=> nil
irb(main):006:0> RUBY_VERSION
=> "1.8.3"

The condition is evaluated before the first iteration.

At least it's consistent:

irb(main):005:0> i = 1
=> 1
irb(main):006:0> p i until (i+=1)>5
2
3
4
5
=> nil

I think it makes "until" less useful. Why would anyone want this?

W

#### Wilson Bilkovich

irb(main):002:0> i=1
=> 1
irb(main):003:0> until (i+=1)>5
irb(main):004:1> p i
irb(main):005:1> end
2
3
4
5
=> nil
irb(main):006:0> RUBY_VERSION
=> "1.8.3"

The condition is evaluated before the first iteration.

At least it's consistent:

irb(main):005:0> i = 1
=> 1
irb(main):006:0> p i until (i+=1)>5
2
3
4
5
=> nil

I think it makes "until" less useful. Why would anyone want this?

What other behavior would you want, and why?
Here are some specs for the current behavior of 'until'. They may help.
http://rubyurl.com/12y

K

#### kazaam

I think I means why the 1 is not printed like in other langues if you do this with repeat...until

J

#### JeremyWoertink

I would say this is a feature to answer you question.
Just think of what gets printed when you do
i = 1
i = i + 1

so you are saying
until (i = i + 1) > 5
p i
end

the second time the i is evaluated is in the until loop.

~Jeremy

E

#### Ezra Zygmuntowicz

irb(main):002:0> i=1
=> 1
irb(main):003:0> until (i+=1)>5
irb(main):004:1> p i
irb(main):005:1> end
2
3
4
5
=> nil
irb(main):006:0> RUBY_VERSION
=> "1.8.3"

The condition is evaluated before the first iteration.

At least it's consistent:

irb(main):005:0> i = 1
=> 1
irb(main):006:0> p i until (i+=1)>5
2
3
4
5
=> nil

I think it makes "until" less useful. Why would anyone want this?

If you want a bottom tested loop then do it this way:

irb(main):006:0> i=1
=> 1
irb(main):007:0> begin
irb(main):008:1* p i
irb(main):009:1> end until (i+=1) > 5
1
2
3
4
5
=> nil
irb(main):010:0>

Cheers-

-- Ezra Zygmuntowicz
-- Founder & Ruby Hacker
-- Engine Yard, Serious Rails Hosting
-- (866) 518-YARD (9273)

D

#### dblack

Hi --

I think what Martin wants is a bottom-tested loop, but I don't believe
Ruby has that. until is a top-tested loop just like while. The only way I
know to get bottom-tested behavior is this.

loop do
# some code goes here
break if condition
end

You can do:

begin
# do stuff
end until condition

David

--
* Books:
RAILS ROUTING (new! http://www.awprofessional.com/title/0321509242)
RUBY FOR RAILS (http://www.manning.com/black)
* Ruby/Rails training
& consulting: Ruby Power and Light, LLC (http://www.rubypal.com)

R

#### Robert Klemme

irb(main):002:0> i=1
=> 1
irb(main):003:0> until (i+=1)>5
irb(main):004:1> p i
irb(main):005:1> end
2
3
4
5
=> nil
irb(main):006:0> RUBY_VERSION
=> "1.8.3"

The condition is evaluated before the first iteration.

At least it's consistent:

irb(main):005:0> i = 1
=> 1
irb(main):006:0> p i until (i+=1)>5
2
3
4
5
=> nil

I think it makes "until" less useful. Why would anyone want this?

def print_all(arr)
until arr.empty?
print ">", arr.shift, "<\n"
end
end

Try this with post checked conditions and an empty array as argument.
Language designers seem to think otherwise. You described the logic of
loops with prechecked conditions which abound in programming languages -

Kind regards

robert

M

#### Martin Jansson

unknown said:
Hi --

You can do:

begin
# do stuff
end until condition

David

Thats just confusing. Why does that work different then "do_stuff until
condition".

I'm used to do things like this:
a= n
until (a*= 3.0)<=450.0
# do stuff
end

I think it is more readable. You get the start value, the incrementer
and the stop condition nicely grouped together. You also get more
effective code, if the penalty for evaluating the condition is high. I'm
not a native english speaker, but I think it feels more in line with
natural languages as well as "mathematical language". And it's a lot
more like how you do things in real life.

Using the loop method would mean that I had to introduce a new scope.
Which, sometimes, means that I have to remember to "declare" a lot of
variables outside that scope. Even those that are never used. A lot of
unecessary code attract bugs like sugar. I like Ruby's block iterators,
but many times it is wrong to use them.

P

#### Phrogz

Thats just confusing. Why does that work different then "do_stuff until
condition".

Consider this:
if foo() then
bar()
end

bar() if foo()

In both cases foo() is called before bar(), even though in one of the
cases it appears later in source code. The 'if' can go in different
places. Similarly with while and until. Now, sometimes you (both the
general populace and you in particular) want to evaluate after the
first iteration. For such cases we need a different syntax.

Do you have a better suggestion for how to differentiate between
evaluate-first and evaluate-after-one-iteration, that is also
consistent with if/unless?

W

#### William James

irb(main):002:0> i=1
=> 1
irb(main):003:0> until (i+=1)>5
irb(main):004:1> p i
irb(main):005:1> end
2
3
4
5
=> nil
irb(main):006:0> RUBY_VERSION
=> "1.8.3"

The condition is evaluated before the first iteration.

At least it's consistent:

irb(main):005:0> i = 1
=> 1
irb(main):006:0> p i until (i+=1)>5
2
3
4
5
=> nil

I think it makes "until" less useful. Why would anyone want this?

In Pascal, "until" differs from "while" in two ways:

1. "While" exits the loop when the condition is false;
"until" exits when the condition is true.
2. "While" checks the condition at the top of the loop;
"until" checks at the bottom of the loop.

In Ruby, "until" differs from "while" in only one way:

1. "While" exits the loop when the condition is false;
"until" exits when the condition is true.

You could say that "until" is to "while" as "unless" is
to "if".

Ruby is more flexible than Pascal in that the both
"while" and "until" can check the condition either at
the top or the bottom of the loop.

# Count to 5, checking at the top of the loop.
i = 0
while (i += 1) <= 5
print i, " "
end
puts

# Count to 5, checking at the top of the loop.
i = 0
until not (i += 1) <= 5
print i, " "
end
puts

# Count to 5, checking at the bottom of the loop.
i = 1
begin
print i, " "
end while (i += 1) <= 5
puts

# Count to 5, checking at the bottom of the loop.
i = 1
begin
print i, " "
end until not (i += 1) <= 5
puts

p i until (i+=1) > 5

That is merely perlish shorthand for

until (i+=1) > 5
p i
end

just as

p i if i < 6

is perlish shorthand for

if i < 6
p i
end

If that seems confusing, don't use it.

L

Here is what I understand based on Pascal.

<waits for the laughing to stop>

There are two main kinds of this loop:

repeat..until

while..do

In the repeat..until (our own version of the until) it does things then
checks for the break condition. In the while loop, it checks then does
things.

In our example here, we have:

i=1
until (i+=1)>5
p i
end

The question is, when does it evaluate? When I learned basic algebra, I
was taught to figure out the things inside the parens first. I think
that is what is done here. Therefore, the first thing done is to
increment, then evaluate.

To get what you seem to want, you would need to evaluate before you
increment, which would look more like this:

i = 1
until i>5
p i
i+=1
end

You were telling it to increment, THEN evaluate. That being the case,
it would not be a bug. IMHO

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