merits of Lisp vs Python

[jayessay]

Really.


So how do you write a portable program in CL, that is to run
for unbounded lengths of time?

Make it non-consing (like for any such program in any language). Of
course, this won't guarantee success as the implementation or OS or
.... may leak or other wise cons memory even if your program doesn't.


I'm surprised there are people out there that find this interesting
let alone surprising.


/Jon

 

[Ken Tilton]

Come on; you guys can't just leave this at 999 posts!

Funny you should whine, i was just getting ready to sign off with:

I noticed while singing the praises of auto-indentation that there was a
shortcoming in The Greatest Feature Known to Editing source code, which
is the ability to copy an arbitrary block of code (say, a case statement
in the else branch of an if statement in a loop) with a single
control-click of the mouse, viz, that I still had to reindent if it was
a multiline statement. The first line of course landed exactly where I
clicked so that was fine, but other lines in the block were retaining
the indentation extant at the time of the click.

A few glasses of...<cough> a few hours ago I dashed off an RFE to Franz
tech support apologizing for a trivial matter but wondering if it might
not be just a line or two, and lawdy-it-must-be-xmas a glass later back
came a patch I am just wallowing in.

interestingly, the techie happens not to have been a user of
control-click, probably a hardcore keyboard guy who never touches the
mouse. I started programming GUIs on a Mac 512, didn't /have/ a keyboard.***

And now the punch line: spare me the "oh gosh reindentation is so easy"
dodge. So is a manual control-shift-p to auto-reindent after an ungainly
paste, but this is definitely one of those deals where we don't notice
until we stop hitting ourselves with that hammer.

ken

--
Algebra: http://www.tilton-technology.com/LispNycAlgebra1.htm

BLISS programs Just Work.
Never revisited, they
Never get refined.
- Warnock's Explanation of Large Programs

 

[Anders J. Munch]

That's quite a clever definition actually.
But, let's say I have a lisp machine. It has an unusual architecture,
it's made entirely of SRAM cells of ~9bits. Sometimes these cells are
used as storage, sometimes their contents represent logic circuits and
the routing between them is configured to form them into a processor.
Please tell me what reachable memory is . (The above processor is
not science fiction, it could easily be done with FPGAs)

Reachable memory is the set of interpreter objects (conses, closures, scopes,
atoms and what have you) reachable from from some appropriately defined root
set. It can be unambiguously defined with respect to a virtual machine, with no
regard to how actual implementations represent these things.

For actual memory use, a simple byte count would do fine. If code and data are
intermingled, just use the combined size of both of them.

If you're worried about comparing incompatible units, don't be: apples and
oranges compare just fine under big-Oh.

- Anders

 

[Rob Thorpe]

Reachable memory is the set of interpreter objects (conses, closures, scopes,
atoms and what have you) reachable from from some appropriately defined root
set. It can be unambiguously defined with respect to a virtual machine, with no
regard to how actual implementations represent these things.
Yes.

For actual memory use, a simple byte count would do fine. If code and data are
intermingled, just use the combined size of both of them.

Well, in my example the code, the data and the processor are
intermingled. Still you could do it this way. But, what would happen
for example if on a normal machine someone wrote a program that
generated lots of functions that it never used, would it have to be
detected by the GC. This is hard to do. The solution is probably to
define the root set only in terms of data.

If you're worried about comparing incompatible units, don't be: apples and
oranges compare just fine under big-Oh.

Yes. Thank you for comprehensively out-arguing me.

I'll give one last reason why it may not be a good thing to define:
reference counting. Some people want to use refcounts, and believe
that under certain circumstances they provide better performance than
GC. I don't know if they're right, I suspect they are for some limited
circumstances. A normal ref-count system can't be gauranteed to have
no memory holes introduced by loops in the data. But, if the
programmer causes no loops to come into being then he/she is safe. An
implementation that used refcounting might not be of much general use,
but for specific purposes, embedded programming for example, it might
be useful.

 

[=?iso-8859-1?q?Lars_Rune_N=F8stdal?=]

How do you compare Python to Lisp? What specific advantages do you
think that one has over the other?

Note I'm not a Python person and I have no axes to grind here. This is
just a question for my general education.

Mark

Kill this frakkin thread; Lisp rules -- while Python is boring (but better
than many other alternatives). E.O.F.

 

[Fuzzyman]

Kill this frakkin thread; Lisp rules -- while Python is boring (but better
than many other alternatives). E.O.F.

Perhaps only with the addendum that although 'Lisp roolz', no-one uses
for anything of relevance anymore and it is continuing it's geriatric
decline into obscurity. ;-)

Python is dull, except to the ever increasing group of programmers who
use it for practical purposes.

Hmm... a fitting. EOF.

Fuzzyman
http://www.voidspace.org.uk/python/articles.shtml

 

[defcon8]

All of you are nazis!

 

[Fuzzyman]

All of you are nazis!

Hmmm... that might work.

Fuzzyman
http://www.voidspace.org.uk/python/articles.shtml

 

[Juan R.]

Fuzzyman ha escrito:

Perhaps only with the addendum that although 'Lisp roolz', no-one uses
for anything of relevance anymore and it is continuing it's geriatric
decline into obscurity. ;-)

I do not think that i cannot agree with the contrary of this but i do
not think the contrary neither.

I am being said that LISP is being actively pursued by a number of
joung hackers as Graham and Tilton. Do not believe?

Ken Tilton has noticed that Dalai Lama has becomed interested in LISP
also.

 

[=?iso-8859-1?q?Lars_Rune_N=F8stdal?=]

Perhaps only with the addendum that although 'Lisp roolz', no-one uses
for anything of relevance anymore and it is continuing it's geriatric
decline into obscurity. ;-)

Screw it; I'll die a "non-professional" programmer if I have to. Meanwhile
ridiculing and scorning all the fools using inferior languages. *hah!*

If I can't do what I love when it comes to programming I'd rather have a
shitty non-programming job that enables me to instantly forget what I've
been doing while at work as soon as I'm done for the day.

My trade -- my tools. :}

 

[Brian Adkins]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
You keep using that phrase. I don't think it means what you think it
means.

[Vizzini has just cut the rope The Dread Pirate Roberts is climbing up]
Vizzini: HE DIDN'T FALL? INCONCEIVABLE.
Inigo Montoya: You keep using that word. I do not think it means what
you think it means.

 

[John Nagle]

Neither Lisp nor Python is an "industrial strength language".
The infrastructure is too weak. Hosting providers and distro
makers aren't concerned over whether Python works. They
care if C, C++, Java, PHP, and Perl work, but not Python or LISP.
Ask them.

John Nagle

 

[Brian Adkins]

Neither Lisp nor Python is an "industrial strength language".
The infrastructure is too weak. Hosting providers and distro
makers aren't concerned over whether Python works. They
care if C, C++, Java, PHP, and Perl work, but not Python or LISP.
Ask them.

John Nagle

In your excitement to post a sweeping and inaccurate generalization (you
missed diss'ing Ruby), I think you may have missed the point of my post.
I surely wasn't trying to restart a dead thread, I just thought it was
funny that there was a similarity to a line from Princess Bride in the
thread (see relevant part below that you cut out).

If you want to restart a debate, please go back and reply to some
serious post in the thread - don't hijack mine for your own evil
purposes and cut out the good parts - did you even see the movie?

> You keep using that phrase. I don't think it means what you think it
> means.

[Vizzini has just cut the rope The Dread Pirate Roberts is climbing up]
Vizzini: HE DIDN'T FALL? INCONCEIVABLE.
Inigo Montoya: You keep using that word. I do not think it means what
you think it means.

 

[Ken Tilton]

In your excitement to post a sweeping and inaccurate generalization (you
missed diss'ing Ruby), I think you may have missed the point of my post.
I surely wasn't trying to restart a dead thread, I just thought it was
funny that there was a similarity to a line from Princess Bride in the
thread (see relevant part below that you cut out).

If you want to restart a debate, please go back and reply to some
serious post in the thread - don't hijack mine for your own evil
purposes and cut out the good parts - did you even see the movie?

Yes. I think George did, too. (I was wondering what you were up to.)



kt

You keep using that phrase. I don't think it means what you think it
means.

[Vizzini has just cut the rope The Dread Pirate Roberts is climbing up]
Vizzini: HE DIDN'T FALL? INCONCEIVABLE.
Inigo Montoya: You keep using that word. I do not think it means what
you think it means.

--
Well, I've wrestled with reality for 35 years, Doctor, and
I'm happy to state I finally won out over it.
-- Elwood P. Dowd

In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant.
-- Elwood's Mom

 

[John Nagle]

John Nagle wrote:

If you want to restart a debate, please go back and reply to some
serious post in the thread - don't hijack mine for your own evil
purposes and cut out the good parts - did you even see the movie?

If you want to post jokes, try rec.humor.funny. Although
they mave moderation and you may not

John Nagle

 

[alex23]

Hosting providers and distro
makers aren't concerned over whether Python works. They
care if C, C++, Java, PHP, and Perl work, but not Python or LISP.
Ask them.

Do you have any real experience with recent linux distros? Or with any
_real_ hosting providers?

Because what you've said is clearly not true. Just because the
situation isn't as easy _for you_ as you would like, doesn't mean that
Python is being ignored to the extent you're trying to claim.

-alex23

 

[Paul Rubin]

Do you have any real experience with recent linux distros? Or with any
_real_ hosting providers?

Care to name a "real" hosting provider that cares whether Python works?

 

[Brian Adkins]

Do you have any real experience with recent linux distros? Or with any
_real_ hosting providers?

Because what you've said is clearly not true. Just because the
situation isn't as easy _for you_ as you would like, doesn't mean that
Python is being ignored to the extent you're trying to claim.

-alex23

alex23 - please don't feed the trolls.

 

[John Nagle]

Do you? You're writing from a gmail account, not your own site.

I have four hosting accounts with EZpublishing and a dedicated server
at Aplus.net. I spent weeks trying to find a hosting provider that
would provide a Python environment that "just works", like everyone
does for Perl. What you typically get is a basic Python 2.4,
and a refusal to install more packages, because it's so time-consuming.
Or a quote of $50 to $150 per hour to install Python packages.

There are a very few hosting providers that actually want to provide
Python hosting, such as Hard Hat Hosting. But most don't.
I don't see any evidence to back up this unsubstantiated claim.

John Nagle

 

[Brian Adkins]

Do you? You're writing from a gmail account, not your own site.

I have four hosting accounts with EZpublishing and a dedicated server
at Aplus.net. I spent weeks trying to find a hosting provider that
would provide a Python environment that "just works", like everyone
does for Perl. What you typically get is a basic Python 2.4,
and a refusal to install more packages, because it's so time-consuming.
Or a quote of $50 to $150 per hour to install Python packages.

There are a very few hosting providers that actually want to provide
Python hosting, such as Hard Hat Hosting. But most don't.

I don't see any evidence to back up this unsubstantiated claim.

John Nagle

Ok, since you provided some details you appear less troll-like, so I'll
ignore my own advice.

With prices of dedicated servers and virtual private servers so cheap,
why would anyone get a hosting account without root access? Once you
have root, just install whatever you want. It shouldn't take more than a
few minutes to install Python or whatever language you desire.

If "apt-get install" doesn't give you a recent enough version, just
download the source and compile it.

Brian

P.S. very cool rag doll physics by the way...