merits of Lisp vs Python

[Paul Rubin]

With prices of dedicated servers and virtual private servers so cheap,
why would anyone get a hosting account without root access?

Because it turns you into a sysadmin instead of letting specialists
handle all the OS stuff so you can concentrate on your application.

Also, no VPS where you have to run your own httpd instance (and
usually your own database if you're using one) can possibly be as
cheap as a virtual host where you're sharing the same httpd with
thousands of other sites.

 

[Brian Adkins]

Because it turns you into a sysadmin instead of letting specialists
handle all the OS stuff so you can concentrate on your application.

I'm not sure what "OS stuff" you're referring to, but my interactions
with my dedicated host are quite similar to when I had a shared hosting
account (except I never have to contact the hosting company like I used
to with a shared account - it just keeps humming along).

Besides, this whole thing got started with John resurrecting the
"industrial strength" argument. I hardly think a shared hosting account
would be considered "industrial strength". If you're not willing to deal
with a dedicated server, then I don't think you're serious about
"industrial strength", right? Not to mention the fact that none of this
has anything to do with the "industrial strengthness" of the language.

Also, no VPS where you have to run your own httpd instance (and
usually your own database if you're using one) can possibly be as
cheap as a virtual host where you're sharing the same httpd with
thousands of other sites.

And you *want* to share the same httpd with thousands of other sites?

I can relate to what you're saying. I tried the shared hosting thing
originally, but the saying, "you get what you pay for" holds some truth
here.

Maybe y'all should change the thread to "Why don't shared hosting
companies treat Python customers better?" or something along those
lines. We seem to have drifted from "Princess Bride" quotes and the
merits of Lisp vs. Python

 

[John Nagle]

Because it turns you into a sysadmin instead of letting specialists
handle all the OS stuff so you can concentrate on your application.

Exactly. I want to outsource these headaches to someone who's
doing it for a thousand servers and has a standardized "just works"
configuration that's Python-friendly. It's inefficient to work
through all these issues for a single server. I have better things
to do with my time.

When starting out with this project, I'd made the assumption that
Python was a stable, working, well-supported technology, like Perl
hosting. It isn't.

It's really amazing how stable Perl hosting is. I have a site,
"downside.com", that's been running a Perl application since 2000,
with essentially no attention since 2002. It's been migrated to new
servers twice by the hosting provider, without my having had to change
anything. Or even do anything. It's talking to a MySQL database,
going out and retrieving files from the SEC, parsing complex documents,
gettting a feed from NASDAQ, responding to queries, and doing
quite a bit of work. When developing that, I had no serious problems with Perl.

Python, on the other hand, is uphill all the way. Constant trouble
with version issues, especially with C components called from Python.
MySQLdb, M2Crypto, SSL - they all have platform/version
incompatibility problems. I just spent three days making M2Crypto
work on a new Linux server with a different Red Hat version.
Neither Python's packaging tools nor the platform's packaging
tools deal adequately with these issues.

The language is fine. It's those weakly-supported packages out
there in the cold that are the problem. (I definitely agree with
Guido that SWIG is a bad idea. I've been combing through the 24,000
lines of C generated by SWIG for M2Crypto, figuring out the compile
errors and what caused them. This is neither fun nor desirable.)

I get the feeling that Python isn't used much for general web hosting
any more. Only about two messages per month on this newsgroup mention
a hosting-related issue.

One wonders how many people try and give up.

John Nagle

 

[Brian Adkins]

Exactly. I want to outsource these headaches to someone who's
doing it for a thousand servers and has a standardized "just works"
configuration that's Python-friendly. It's inefficient to work
through all these issues for a single server. I have better things
to do with my time.

When starting out with this project, I'd made the assumption that
Python was a stable, working, well-supported technology, like Perl
hosting. It isn't.

It's really amazing how stable Perl hosting is. I have a site,
"downside.com", that's been running a Perl application since 2000,
with essentially no attention since 2002. It's been migrated to new
servers twice by the hosting provider, without my having had to change
anything. Or even do anything. It's talking to a MySQL database,
going out and retrieving files from the SEC, parsing complex documents,
gettting a feed from NASDAQ, responding to queries, and doing
quite a bit of work. When developing that, I had no serious problems
with Perl.

This may sound like I'm baiting you, but it's a sincere question. If
your experience with Perl was so good, why did you decide to pursue
Python? Trouble free hosting and no problems in development - sounds
like it worked out well for you.

I do think that "hosting for the masses" is geared toward PHP, Perl,
..NET, etc.

I primarily develop in Ruby on Rails (I'm here 'cause the original
thread was posted to c.l.p and c.l.l) and I admit that trying that in a
shared hosting environment will probably lead to frustration, but once I
bit the bullet and got a VPS, and later a dedicated server, it was
smooth sailing, and the performance is *so* much better.

A bit of a learning curve getting Apache, Mongrel, MySQL, etc. up and
running (which was a fixed amount of time), then it just runs. In my
case, the productivity gains over my previous environment
(Java/Spring/Hibernate) was enough to justify a little pain for long
term gains. Switching from the VPS to the dedicated server with a
different company was easy because I already had the recipe to get a
server setup.

Python, on the other hand, is uphill all the way. Constant trouble
with version issues, especially with C components called from Python.
MySQLdb, M2Crypto, SSL - they all have platform/version
incompatibility problems. I just spent three days making M2Crypto
work on a new Linux server with a different Red Hat version.
Neither Python's packaging tools nor the platform's packaging
tools deal adequately with these issues.

Now I understand your original post a bit better. Sounds like you've had
a fair amount of frustration.

The language is fine. It's those weakly-supported packages out
there in the cold that are the problem. (I definitely agree with
Guido that SWIG is a bad idea. I've been combing through the 24,000
lines of C generated by SWIG for M2Crypto, figuring out the compile
errors and what caused them. This is neither fun nor desirable.)

I get the feeling that Python isn't used much for general web hosting
any more. Only about two messages per month on this newsgroup mention
a hosting-related issue.

It could be that the web folks are concentrated elsewhere - maybe a
TurboGears or Django forum? Are you just using Python with CGI, or with
a web framework? If the latter, I expect the framework folks could be
quite helpful.

 

[Ken Tilton]

If you want to post jokes...

fer chrissakes, it was the OP of "means what you think it means" who was
obviously doing Princess Bride and being reasonably funny, Brian just
missed that it was deliberate.

, try ...

.....comp.lang.lisp. All the SBCL bug reports are starting to drag down
the mood of this NG.

kt

--
Well, I've wrestled with reality for 35 years, Doctor, and
I'm happy to state I finally won out over it.
-- Elwood P. Dowd

In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant.
-- Elwood's Mom

 

[Paul Rubin]

This may sound like I'm baiting you, but it's a sincere question. If
your experience with Perl was so good, why did you decide to pursue
Python? Trouble free hosting and no problems in development - sounds
like it worked out well for you.

Er, because the Perl language itself is up there with Vogon poetry in
bletcherousness?

 

[Brian Adkins]

fer chrissakes, it was the OP of "means what you think it means" who was
obviously doing Princess Bride and being reasonably funny,

Turns out John is having quite a tough time with Python web hosting (the
thread has split off to a c.l.p only fork), so I'm going to cut him some
slack. Maybe with some lovin' we can woo him over to c.l.l

 

[Dennis Lee Bieber]

When starting out with this project, I'd made the assumption that
Python was a stable, working, well-supported technology, like Perl
hosting. It isn't.

It is interesting how your text seems to blame "Python" (the
language) when comparing not to "Perl" (the language) but to a service
field of "Perl hosting".

At the least, be fair and use the phrase "Python hosting" in any
place you'd have used "Perl hosting"...


(I note in passing you did have a comment about Python, the language,
being good... but anyone reading quickly would tend to interpret, say
the part quoted above, as "Python is unstable, doesn't work, and
unsupported" -- none of which, in my experience, is true... Low-cost web
hosting with Python is a different kettle of fish [chowder, probably
<G>])

--
Wulfraed Dennis Lee Bieber KD6MOG
(e-mail address removed) (e-mail address removed)
HTTP://wlfraed.home.netcom.com/
(Bestiaria Support Staff: (e-mail address removed))
HTTP://www.bestiaria.com/

 

[John Nagle]

Turns out John is having quite a tough time with Python web hosting (the
thread has split off to a c.l.p only fork), so I'm going to cut him some
slack. Maybe with some lovin' we can woo him over to c.l.l

Been there, done that. I've actually used an original refrigerator
sized Symbolics LISP machine.

I tend to think of Python as a LISP with infix syntax.
We have a better handle on what to put in a dynamic language now, and
Python does a good job in that direction. I'm happy with the
language; it's the integration with external components that isn't
working.

John Nagle

 

[Stephen Eilert]

Been there, done that. I've actually used an original refrigerator
sized Symbolics LISP machine.

I tend to think of Python as a LISP with infix syntax.
We have a better handle on what to put in a dynamic language now, and
Python does a good job in that direction. I'm happy with the
language; it's the integration with external components that isn't
working.

John Nagle

OMG! And I thought the thread was dead!

Necromancers! Run!!!

 

[Chris Mellon]

When starting out with this project, I'd made the assumption that
Python was a stable, working, well-supported technology, like Perl
hosting. It isn't.

It is interesting how your text seems to blame "Python" (the
language) when comparing not to "Perl" (the language) but to a service
field of "Perl hosting".

At the least, be fair and use the phrase "Python hosting" in any
place you'd have used "Perl hosting"...


(I note in passing you did have a comment about Python, the language,
being good... but anyone reading quickly would tend to interpret, say
the part quoted above, as "Python is unstable, doesn't work, and
unsupported" -- none of which, in my experience, is true... Low-cost web
hosting with Python is a different kettle of fish [chowder, probably
<G>])

Mr. Nagle has a history of phrasing his personal problems as if they
were vast, sweeping, general issues affecting the entire industry. The
original post, and several followups, referred to *real* hosting
provides, with the emphasis, and in the context of "industrial
strength". Any *real* hosting provider is going to support whatever
language and environment I tell them to, because I'm going to pay them
a lot of money for excellent support and if they give me any trouble I
will go with someone who provides what I want.


What was *meant* was low priced, zero maintenance, reasonably reliable
consumer level hosting. Thats a totally different market, it's not
"industrial strength", and it doesn't merit the emphasis on *real*
provider. And it is true that in that realm Python is not well
represented.

 

[Paul Rubin]

Any *real* hosting provider is going to support whatever
language and environment I tell them to, because I'm going to pay them
a lot of money for excellent support and if they give me any trouble I
will go with someone who provides what I want.

Hosting providers are generally not in the business of doing anything
like that, except the low end ones that mostly support PHP.

What was *meant* was low priced, zero maintenance, reasonably reliable
consumer level hosting. Thats a totally different market, it's not
"industrial strength", and it doesn't merit the emphasis on *real*
provider. And it is true that in that realm Python is not well
represented.

Python is not so well represented in "industrial strength" hosting
either; that kind of hosting generally leaves language support up to
the customer.

 

[Aahz]

Care to name a "real" hosting provider that cares whether Python works?

http://www.webfaction.com/

 

[Paul Rubin]

http://www.webfaction.com/

Thanks! This is good to know about.

 

[John Nagle]

Who are you buying from?

Hosting providers are generally not in the business of doing anything
like that, except the low end ones that mostly support PHP.




Python is not so well represented in "industrial strength" hosting
either; that kind of hosting generally leaves language support up to
the customer.

The industry trend seems to be towards two dedicated server offerings.
One is dedicated hosting in a relatively controlled manner, with web based
server control and a somewhat locked down environment. You get
root access, but if you mess with the controlled environment, it's
your problem if anything breaks. The Plesk control panel is widely
used for this.

The other offering is "power, pipe, and ping" - an empty machine in
a rack. What you do with it is your problem.

In neither case is the Python environment typically ready for serious use
out of the box.

There's denial in the Python community that this is a problem, but it is.
The Ruby on Rails people get it; they work to provide a seamless experience
for web developers. Which is why their market share is way up over two years
ago.

Here's an overview of the dedicated server industry from the Gartner
Group:

http://www.savvis.net/NR/rdonlyres/...itionedasLeaderinGartnerNAHostingMQGARTNE.pdf

There's an emphasis on standardized offerings from the major players.
Customized environments are usually either user-managed or offered
as part of enterprise IT outsourcing.

John Nagle

 

[Paul Rubin]

There's denial in the Python community that this is a problem,
but it is. The Ruby on Rails people get it; they work to provide a
seamless experience for web developers. Which is why their market
share is way up over two years ago.

I do know that a big Perl site that I hang out on (but am not involved
with the software for) decided to redo its software and had a big
discussion of what to use. Python/Django was a serious contender but
in the end they chose Ruby on Rails. I didn't pay too close attention
to the exact rationale but it was somewhat disappointing and yet
unsurprising.

 

[Alex Martelli]

Care to name a "real" hosting provider that cares whether Python works?

The first name that comes to mind is xs4all, the major Dutch provider
(they've even got their own Wikipedia entry!-) -- they've long offered
outstanding sponsorship to the Python community, hosting lots of
services for us, btw.

But the OP's mention of "distro" ain't even funny -- ever since RedHat's
original implementation of RPM (in Python), ever more Linux distros are
positively _fanatical_ about Python. Ubuntu, for example, has as its
BDFL Mark Shuttleworth, who (since, as he explains, he made his fortune
thanks to Python -- Python's what allowed him to build Thawte, which he
later sold for mucho dinero) is an unabashed fan of Python; the "XO"
(nee "One Laptop Per Child", OLPC, and once known as the "$100 laptop")
uses Python as its preferred (only?-) application language, and it's
slated to be the most widely distributed Python distro if it hits even
half of its ambitious target-numbers...


Alex

 

[Dennis Lee Bieber]

OMG! And I thought the thread was dead!

Necromancers! Run!!!

Well... at least it isn't the necrophiliac herpetologists...
--
Wulfraed Dennis Lee Bieber KD6MOG
(e-mail address removed) (e-mail address removed)
HTTP://wlfraed.home.netcom.com/
(Bestiaria Support Staff: (e-mail address removed))
HTTP://www.bestiaria.com/

 

[Terry Reedy]

| later sold for mucho dinero) is an unabashed fan of Python; the "XO"
| (nee "One Laptop Per Child", OLPC, and once known as the "$100 laptop")
| uses Python as its preferred (only?-) application language, and it's
| slated to be the most widely distributed Python distro if it hits even
| half of its ambitious target-numbers...

The exciting part to me is that the somewhat inovative user inteface is
writen in Python and intended to be hacked on by the users (kids) around
the world.

tjr

 

[Paul Boddie]

[Dedicated server offerings]

I'm not so familiar with dedicated servers, being unlikely to buy into
that kind of hosting any time soon - I'm not running a business with
serious reliability/control/uptime constraints where I could justify
spending that kind of money. However...

In neither case is the Python environment typically ready for serious use
out of the box.

Well, I can't say much about the off-the-shelf, locked down solutions
with Plesk control panels, but if you just get a box with the pipes
("an empty machine in a rack"), you make from that what you will. Such
a solution isn't likely to be any good for Perl, PHP or Ruby out of
the box, either. I mean, what's the operating system? Do you have to
provide that? If so, any modern GNU/Linux distribution would give you
lots of acceptable packages for Python.

There's denial in the Python community that this is a problem, but it is.
The Ruby on Rails people get it; they work to provide a seamless experience
for web developers. Which is why their market share is way up over two years
ago.

They got a number of things right. However, the big difference as I
see it is that instead of wondering why various providers don't
support Rails, they've either gone and started their own (including
virtual private server solutions), or they've found existing, flexible
providers (such as WebFaction) who were already providing lots of
plumbing for various Python-based solutions and persuaded them to
provide support for Rails. Last time I looked, Rails deployment
situation seemed closely tied to FastCGI and a lot of other stuff that
is arguably less attractive to various hosting providers than many of
the ways you can deploy Python Web solutions.

As for the denial, I can see your point to an extent. Before the Rails
hype there were discussions about making Python solutions as
attractive to deploy as PHP solutions, but a lot of the "movers and
shakers" in the Python Web community seem to have the luxury of
managing their own Internet-facing infrastructure. Thus, any progress
really has to be driven by people like you with your own hosting
requirements.

Paul