Question about CLC

[Masood]

Hi all,

I've been reading this group new for a few weeks and it's quite
intriguing the way it's so dysfunctional as a "society". Actually I was
telling my brother about it - he's a sociology major and is now
interested in looking at this group for his project.

I've read several Usenet groups and lots of forums over the years, and
while of course some of them have trolls, feuds, etc., none seem to have
this endemic anger and hate that CLC does. Can anyone suggest other
newsgroups with similar characteristics for comparison purposes?

It's quite interesting, because standard theory suggests you need about
100 to 150 people in a group before it needs rules, hierarchy, authority
etc. to function effectively, whereas in CLC there only seem to be 20-30
regulars and yet it's suffering badly under the strain of people
virtually living together.

I don't dare ask people why they think this group is so acrimonious, for
fear of starting yet another bitter flame war!

Best.

 

[Malcolm McLean]

I've been reading this group new for a few weeks and it's quite intriguing
the way it's so dysfunctional as a "society". Actually I was telling my
brother about it - he's a sociology major and is now interested in looking
at this group for his project.

Programming personality.
As with other jobs, like medicine, sales, or politics to take some obvious
examples, programming both atteracts a certain type of person and tends to
impose certain characteristics on its practitioners.

 

[Martin Ambuhl]

Hi all,

I've been reading this group new for a few weeks and it's quite
intriguing the way it's so dysfunctional as a "society".

This newsgroup is one of the oldest and most successful. While other
newsgroups have come and been thrown abandonned into the usenet
cesspool, this one has continued. It is the vigilance of its regular
posters, the insistence on topicality, the shunning of those who would
use it for their commercial ends that have preserved it. No doubt it is
saved by just those things that you mistakenly interpret as its being
dysfunctional.

Actually I was
telling my brother about it - he's a sociology major and is now
interested in looking at this group for his project.

I hope his analytical abilities exceed yours. Otherwise he will need an
audience that is both gullible and that lacks all real knowledge of the
subject.

I've read several Usenet groups and lots of forums over the years, and
while of course some of them have trolls, feuds, etc., none seem to have
this endemic anger and hate that CLC does. Can anyone suggest other
newsgroups with similar characteristics for comparison purposes?

If you see anger and hate, then you are probably using a mirror for a
computer screen. Protectiveness of a precious resource is not anger or
hate.

 

[Julienne Walker]

I've read several Usenet groups and lots of forums over the years, and
while of course some of them have trolls, feuds, etc., none seem to have
this endemic anger and hate that CLC does. Can anyone suggest other
newsgroups with similar characteristics for comparison purposes?

alt.lang.asm

 

[jameskuyper]

Masood wrote:
....

It's quite interesting, because standard theory suggests you need about
100 to 150 people in a group before it needs rules, hierarchy, authority
etc. to function effectively, whereas in CLC there only seem to be 20-30
regulars and yet it's suffering badly under the strain of people
virtually living together.

Small groups show much more variation in their behavior than large
groups. The most acrimonious groups in any large set of groups are
likely to be small ones; the same is true of the least acrimonious
groups. There was an article in a recent issue of "Scientific
American" or "American Scientist" (I subscribe to both, and I can't
remember which one the article was in) that describes how this effect
can lead to misleading statistics. For instance, this effect can make
it easy for a poorly-designed study to produce statistics which appear
to prove that small schools do a much better job of teaching than
large ones. By a slight rearrange in the data handling procedures, the
same effect can cause the production of statistics which appear to
"prove" that small schools do a much worse job of teaching than large
ones. A study organized with this effect properly handled shows only a
small correlation between school size and the effectiveness of
teaching.

 

[Richard]

This newsgroup is one of the oldest and most successful. While other
newsgroups have come and been thrown abandonned into the usenet
cesspool, this one has continued. It is the vigilance of its regular
posters, the insistence on topicality, the shunning of those who would
use it for their commercial ends that have preserved it. No doubt it

What a load of rubbish. What has preserved it is the usage of C
throughout the world.

is saved by just those things that you mistakenly interpret as its
being dysfunctional.


I hope his analytical abilities exceed yours. Otherwise he will need
an audience that is both gullible and that lacks all real knowledge of
the subject.

LOL. The sentence above almost sums up the big headed, arrogant approach
of the core clique. Just who do you think you are? You appear to be
almost as in love with yourself as RH.

If you see anger and hate, then you are probably using a mirror for a
computer screen. Protectiveness of a precious resource is not anger
or hate.

I see lots of anger and hate too. And so do many, many people. It's why
this group gets so few new posters and "regulars" - they move off to
less anal pastures where people are there to help and not to prance.

 

[Richard Heathfield]

Martin Ambuhl said:

Hi all,

I've been reading this group new for a few weeks and it's quite
intriguing the way it's so dysfunctional as a "society".

[...] No doubt [comp.lang.c] is
saved by just those things that you mistakenly interpret as its being
dysfunctional.

Well, to be fair, we don't know which aspects of comp.lang.c "Masood"
thinks are dysfunctional. If he is perceptive, he will recognise that
there is a small group of people who post regularly, and yet contribute
nothing positive to the group: "Richard" (i.e. Richard Riley), "Kenny
McCormack" (probably but not necessarily a pseudonym), "Doug", Bill Reid,
"Antoninus Twink", and possibly one or two others. These people do nothing
except attempt to detract from those who contribute their expertise for
free. Once one has killfiled them, one's view of the group will improve
markedly.

If you see anger and hate, then you are probably using a mirror for a
computer screen.

Either that, or he's reading the trolls - which is never a good idea.

 

[Stephen Montgomery-Smith]

Hi all,

I've been reading this group new for a few weeks and it's quite
intriguing the way it's so dysfunctional as a "society". Actually I was
telling my brother about it - he's a sociology major and is now
interested in looking at this group for his project.

I've read several Usenet groups and lots of forums over the years, and
while of course some of them have trolls, feuds, etc., none seem to have
this endemic anger and hate that CLC does. Can anyone suggest other
newsgroups with similar characteristics for comparison purposes?

talk.origins

 

[Antoninus Twink]

It's quite interesting, because standard theory suggests you need about
100 to 150 people in a group before it needs rules, hierarchy, authority
etc. to function effectively, whereas in CLC there only seem to be 20-30
regulars and yet it's suffering badly under the strain of people
virtually living together.

I don't dare ask people why they think this group is so acrimonious, for
fear of starting yet another bitter flame war!

The answer to this question is very simple. All of the problems in this
group stem from one very forceful personality who imposes his will on
the group - Richard HeathField.

 

[Ben Pfaff]

I've read several Usenet groups and lots of forums over the years, and
while of course some of them have trolls, feuds, etc., none seem to
have this endemic anger and hate that CLC does.

Though there is certainly some endemic discord in CLC, I do not
think that it rises to the level of hate, except possibly in one
or two cases. Most of the long-term denizens of Usenet have
thick skins.

 

[jacob navia]

Though there is certainly some endemic discord in CLC, I do not
think that it rises to the level of hate

Yes. To really hate somebody I would need more than
discussions about standard C

 

[Ben Pfaff]

All of the problems in this group stem from one very forceful
personality who imposes his will on the group - Richard
HeathField.

Who controls the British crown?
Who keeps the metric system down?
Heathfield! Heathfield!

Who leaves Atlantis off the maps?
Who keeps the Martians under wraps?
Heathfield! Heathfield!

Who holds back the electric car?
Who makes Jacob Navia a star?
Heathfield! Heathfield!

Who robs cavefish of their sight?
Who rigs every Oscar night?
Heathfield! Heathfield!
-
char a[]="\n .CJacehknorstu";int putchar(int);int main(void){unsigned long b[]
={0x67dffdff,0x9aa9aa6a,0xa77ffda9,0x7da6aa6a,0xa67f6aaa,0xaa9aa9f6,0x11f6},*p
=b,i=24;for(;p+=!*p;*p/=4)switch(0[p]&3)case 0:{return 0;for(p--;i--;i--)case+
2:{i++;if(i)break;else default:continue;if(0)case 1utchar(a[i&15]);break;}}}

 

[Kenny McCormack]

What a load of rubbish. What has preserved it is the usage of C
throughout the world.

That's probably true in the global sense - in that there is always an
endless supply of newbies who come here for help (which they never get).

But I think the main reason the newsgroup continues is because of the
core of regulars and contrarians (*), who never seem to tire of sniping at
each other. Face it, it *is* fun.

(*) The group formerly known as "trolls". We now prefer the term
"contrarians".

LOL. The sentence above almost sums up the big headed, arrogant approach
of the core clique. Just who do you think you are? You appear to be
almost as in love with yourself as RH.

Marty is, indeed, a real head case. He posts the same way in other
groups, too.

 

[Kenny McCormack]

Hi all,

I've been reading this group new for a few weeks and it's quite
intriguing the way it's so dysfunctional as a "society". Actually I was
telling my brother about it - he's a sociology major and is now
interested in looking at this group for his project.

I've read several Usenet groups and lots of forums over the years, and
while of course some of them have trolls, feuds, etc., none seem to have
this endemic anger and hate that CLC does. Can anyone suggest other
newsgroups with similar characteristics for comparison purposes?

It's quite interesting, because standard theory suggests you need about
100 to 150 people in a group before it needs rules, hierarchy, authority
etc. to function effectively, whereas in CLC there only seem to be 20-30
regulars and yet it's suffering badly under the strain of people
virtually living together.

I don't dare ask people why they think this group is so acrimonious, for
fear of starting yet another bitter flame war!

Best.

Excellent post. Of course, all the regs are going to spend all their
time (as I see they've already done) trying to assure you that you are
wrong and that 2+2 does not, in fact, equal 4. I believe the following
quote is appropriate here:

Faced with the choice between changing one's mind and proving there is
no need to do so, almost everyone gets busy on the proof.
- John Kenneth Galbraith -

You might want to read my recent post on True Democracy vs.
Representational Democracy - I make a point similar to yours, that it is
strange that such a small group would need and have implemented the
trappings of RD. This generally happens when authoritarians get into
power. (For further reading on the subject of authoritarians, see John
Dean's excellent book "Conservatives Without Conscience")

As far as the actual question raised in your post (And I noted and
applaud your statement that you are not asking them to explain why it is
so - though of course, everyone interpreted the post that way. Asking
them why would be like asking the Bush Admin why they screwed up in
Iraq...), I think that CLC *is* unique (at least in the "real Usenet" -
even moreso in specifically the comp.* hierarchy), but you won't have to
look far in, e.g. (and as has been mentioned by some of the other
posters who did respond to your actual query - instead of "getting busy
on the proof") the talk.* or alt.* hierarchies, to find people as nutty
or moreso than here.

But, I should point out, nutty yes, but downright hateful and smug, no.
I have not seen anything approaching the level of hateful and smug in
any other group, anywhere. They truly have it honed to a fine art here.

 

[Serve La]

But I think the main reason the newsgroup continues is because of the
core of regulars and contrarians (*), who never seem to tire of sniping at
each other. Face it, it *is* fun.

I admit, if this group was purely trying to be academic about C all the time
I would have stopped lurking here a long time ago. The combination of very
good information about C and the occasional flame make it worth reading here

 

[CBFalconer]

Who controls the British crown?
Who keeps the metric system down?
Heathfield! Heathfield!

Who leaves Atlantis off the maps?
Who keeps the Martians under wraps?
Heathfield! Heathfield!

Who holds back the electric car?
Who makes Jacob Navia a star?
Heathfield! Heathfield!

Who robs cavefish of their sight?
Who rigs every Oscar night?
Heathfield! Heathfield!

For Masoods benefit, the above illustrates why Twink is considered
a troll, but not why the Pfaffian humour is perfectly acceptable.
It has to do with the other posts by both individuals.

 

[Philip Potter]

Who controls the British crown?
Who keeps the metric system down?
Heathfield! Heathfield!

Who leaves Atlantis off the maps?
Who keeps the Martians under wraps?
Heathfield! Heathfield!

Who holds back the electric car?
Who makes Jacob Navia a star?
Heathfield! Heathfield!

Who robs cavefish of their sight?
Who rigs every Oscar night?
Heathfield! Heathfield!

Hahaha! Brilliant!

And don't you mean "HeathField"?

 

[Kaz Kylheku]

Hi all,

I've been reading this group new for a few weeks and it's quite
intriguing the way it's so dysfunctional as a "society".

Ah, you're that lame asshole who started that ``making C better by
borrowing from C++'' thread.

Now you're sulking for being flamed.

Waaah!

 

[Mark McIntyre]

I've been reading this group new for a few weeks and it's quite
intriguing the way it's so dysfunctional as a "society".

Either you're talking about some other CLC, or you have a strange
definition of dysfunctional.

this endemic anger and hate that CLC does.

CLC doesn't have any endemic anger or hate.

What we do have is a few trolls who are a bit like the annoying kid on
the block who is always tipping over your trash, throwing stones at your
dog etc. Some of us ignore these dorks, others get upset, some get
sarcastic.

This is just like real life.

 

[Mark McIntyre]

At last a good answer. I hope you will stop making so much noise then,
and amend your ways.

And what purpose did this sarcastic and rude remark serve, beyond
stirring up the kind of noise you claim to be objecting to?

Every kook can (and should) be able to act normally
again.

P.S. This applies of course to the other kooks here.

Physician, heal thyself.