speeding ruby development

D

David Garamond

I personally would very much like Ruby development to be sped up. We
have been hearing about Ruby2 for a long time now but there's not a sign
of it coming anytime soon. Does matz want Ruby development to be faster
or is he generally satisfied with the current pace? (I admit things like
good design or "inspirations" often cannot be forced.)

Does matz like the idea of setting up a fund for core Ruby developers? I
remember matz saying that one of the things that occupies him is work.
Does matz like the idea of working full time on Ruby?

Admittedly, I am not financially abundant myself (working and living in
third world country). But I am sure will donate every month -- I can
always buy less CD's/books. I am also confident that the Ruby community
can support at least 1 full-time developer (like the Perl/Perl6
community does with Damian Conway). Perhaps we can also sell mugs,
T-shirts, etc.

As for contributing in development, unfortunately, my C skills are
inadequate (plus the fact that I hate C and would like to *use* Ruby
instead of develop Ruby). But I do like to help speed up the development
one way or another.
 
S

Shashank Date

David Garamond said:
Does matz like the idea of setting up a fund for core Ruby developers? I
remember matz saying that one of the things that occupies him is work.
Does matz like the idea of working full time on Ruby?

As far as I know, Matz does work on Ruby full time ... he is paid by his
organization to work on Ruby. Unless, of course, that has changed in
recent past.

Nevertheless, setting up a fund for one (or more) full time developer is not
a bad idea...

-- shanko
 
Y

Yukihiro Matsumoto

Hi,

In message "speeding ruby development"

|Does matz want Ruby development to be faster
|or is he generally satisfied with the current pace? (I admit things like
|good design or "inspirations" often cannot be forced.)

I'm not satisfied with the current pace. The spirit indeed is
willing, but the flesh is weak.

|Does matz like the idea of setting up a fund for core Ruby developers? I
|remember matz saying that one of the things that occupies him is work.
|Does matz like the idea of working full time on Ruby?

I'm working full time for myself. I'm paid for my opensource work.
But many other developers, "Nobu the great" for example, are not paid.
Funding them can be a good idea.

Should we set up a paypal account or such?

matz.
 
D

David A. Black

Hi --

Hi,

In message "speeding ruby development"

|Does matz want Ruby development to be faster
|or is he generally satisfied with the current pace? (I admit things like
|good design or "inspirations" often cannot be forced.)

I'm not satisfied with the current pace. The spirit indeed is
willing, but the flesh is weak.

|Does matz like the idea of setting up a fund for core Ruby developers? I
|remember matz saying that one of the things that occupies him is work.
|Does matz like the idea of working full time on Ruby?

I'm working full time for myself. I'm paid for my opensource work.
But many other developers, "Nobu the great" for example, are not paid.
Funding them can be a good idea.

Should we set up a paypal account or such?

This is not entirely outside the scope of what Ruby Central is
designed to do, though unfortunately we're *still* waiting to hear
about tax-exempt status from the IRS :-( (I can provide more details
for anyone who's interested; it's mostly just very boring, slow
exchanges of information.)


David
 
D

David Garamond

Yukihiro said:
Should we set up a paypal account or such?

+1. (But please allow other methods since PayPal doesn't support all
countries).

In the long run, we should probably set up a proper foundation
organization, either based in the US or Japan (or both). Perhaps we
could ask for pointers from Mozilla, Firebird, Perl, Python...
 
S

Sean O'Dell

I'm not satisfied with the current pace. The spirit indeed is
willing, but the flesh is weak.

I'm working full time for myself. I'm paid for my opensource work.
But many other developers, "Nobu the great" for example, are not paid.
Funding them can be a good idea.

Should we set up a paypal account or such?

Is it just going slow, or is it worse than that? Is lack of funding the main
trouble? I didn't expect to see you suggest Paypal donations.

Sean O'Dell
 
J

James Britt

David said:
+1. (But please allow other methods since PayPal doesn't support all
countries).

In the long run, we should probably set up a proper foundation
organization, either based in the US or Japan (or both). Perhaps we
could ask for pointers from Mozilla, Firebird, Perl, Python...

It exists: rubycentral.org
 
G

gabriele renzi

il Thu, 8 Jul 2004 20:33:54 +0900, David Garamond
<[email protected]> ha scritto::

well, rubycentral should be deputed to this kind of things..
I'd love to have the choice to use it as a "bounty hunter's base".
People could put there tasks like, say, "solve threading problems on
windows", "write a library for ATOM parsing" and so on, and other
people could add money to the project or propose themselves as the
hunter for it.

This way we get: funding for devs, useful stuff, people get what they
want end feel the need for.
 
R

richard lyman

If you're going to do the work to support something (paying people to
develop)...

<start questions that might be answered in some other working group,
but should be answered for Ruby and the working group that would be
involved>

Shouldn't you first make sure that you're going to get enough to be
worth the while?

When people say that they will contribute monetarily - how much is that?

$5 a month from one person won't even pay for the setup.

Now $1,000 a month would start to get things going.

100 people paying $10 a month? Is that possible?

50 people paying $20 a month? Is that possible?

Where's the realistic limit?

Would "Nobu the great" (and I use that is all seriousness) work for us
full-time (or even part-time) for _only_ $12,000 a year?

What happens when a third of those who had commited to pay dropped out
and the 'paid-developers' 'salary' was cut from $12,000 to $9,000?

Does everybody get a refund if the paid-developer drops out?

How many people out there would refuse payment if it didn't go to the
developer they wanted?

How many developers would 'quit' their 'real' job to work based on a
source of funds that is completely volatile?

-Rich
 
M

Martin larsson

richard said:
If you're going to do the work to support something (paying people to
develop)...

<start questions that might be answered in some other working group,
but should be answered for Ruby and the working group that would be
involved>

Shouldn't you first make sure that you're going to get enough to be
worth the while?

When people say that they will contribute monetarily - how much is that?

$5 a month from one person won't even pay for the setup.

Now $1,000 a month would start to get things going.

100 people paying $10 a month? Is that possible?

50 people paying $20 a month? Is that possible?

Where's the realistic limit?

Would "Nobu the great" (and I use that is all seriousness) work for us
full-time (or even part-time) for _only_ $12,000 a year?

What happens when a third of those who had commited to pay dropped out
and the 'paid-developers' 'salary' was cut from $12,000 to $9,000?

Does everybody get a refund if the paid-developer drops out?

How many people out there would refuse payment if it didn't go to the
developer they wanted?

How many developers would 'quit' their 'real' job to work based on a
source of funds that is completely volatile?

-Rich
Wouldn't it be a good idea to make a webform where you can register if
you're interested in paying, just to see how many that are willing to
sacrifice some money to the ruby-gods?
Those who got jobs where they use ruby alot maybe can get the company to
send little money each month too.
 
L

Lothar Scholz

Hello richard,

rl> If you're going to do the work to support something (paying people to
rl> develop)...


I just waited for someone like you :)

I doubt that it is possible to pay someone. We need a (maybe many) large
company behind us to do so. And for them ruby must be used in a way that
they get profit in another way (consulting, inhouse software development)
etc.

But i doubt that there is any of them. Maybe people in some companies
use ruby (testing is popular) but the situation is more that this is
allowed but not supported.

Without these companies nothing will happen. Look at this newsgroup,
how many people are frequently posting here 50 ? I'm doing this for
about 2 month now, and i know most of the people by name. Compare this
with python newsgroups and you see the difference.

So instead of spending money the people should spend time and help to
improve the libraries. There is much work to do, but yes - it's
work, sometimes really hard work. And thats why the situation is so worse,
people like to play with ruby in there freetime but they don't like to
work on projects resulting in hundrets of fucked up libraries that
never got beyond the proof of concept level.
 
C

Charles Mills

richard lyman wrote:
Wouldn't it be a good idea to make a webform where you can register if
you're interested in paying, just to see how many that are willing to
sacrifice some money to the ruby-gods?
Not to be negative, but the cost of registering =~ 0, while actually
paying is a different story.
Those who got jobs where they use ruby alot maybe can get the company
to send little money each month too.
Seems like a possibility if a company could write it off as a
charitable donation.
Also I think companies would be more likely to send money if they got
some exposer/recognition when they did donate.
I volunteer for a charity auction every year and during the procurement
process I am always amazed at how generous people/companies are if you
just ask. But at the same time it is always important to highlight the
benefits of donating (which is usually exposer and recognition... being
able to say that they are a member of the "Ruby Development Trust" or
something like that).
-Charlie
 
D

David A. Black

Hi --

Not to be negative, but the cost of registering =~ 0, while actually
paying is a different story.

Seems like a possibility if a company could write it off as a
charitable donation.

That's the theory behind Ruby Central, Inc., though as I mentioned
before, the process of getting tax-exempt status is dragging on longer
than we'd hoped so we can't yet offer the charitable write-off
scenario (though we can accept donations and sponsorship for
RubyConf). It's literally down to having to revise entire forms
because we've received a late payment from last year's conference in
the interim... and things like that.

I think actually supporting someone on a full salary would be very
hard or impossible, just because of scale, but I certainly foresee
Ruby Central serving as a kind of clearinghouse for support for
projects (beyond RubyConf, that is) once the tax-exempt status comes
through. (Maybe we're being too pessimistic about people and
companies donating on a non-exempt basis (?), but that's been our
judgement so far.)


David
 
Z

zuzu

http://www.biz.uiowa.edu/iem/
http://hanson.gmu.edu/ideafutures.html
http://hanson.gmu.edu/infomkts.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Futures_exchange

Idea Futures
(a.k.a. Prediction Markets, Information Markets)
by Robin Hanson

(This is my top web page on idea futures. Go here to find my
publications on idea futures.)

The Idea Our policy-makers and media rely too much on the "expert"
advice of a self-interested insider's club of pundits and big-shot
academics. These pundits are rewarded too much for telling good
stories, and for supporting each other, rather than for being "right".
Instead, let us create betting markets on most controversial
questions, and treat the current market odds as our best expert
consensus. The real experts (maybe you), would then be rewarded for
their contributions, while clueless pundits would learn to stay away.
You should have a free-speech right to bet on political questions in
policy markets, and we could even base a new form of government on
idea futures.

One can subsidize a market on a question, offering extra rewards to
those who bet right on this question. This subsidy is an "information
prize", offered to those who first provide information on a question,
in contrast to an "accomplishment prize", given to those who first
accomplish some task. Instead of patronizing academic basic research
via proposal peer-review, we should use prizes more.

Publications Idea Futures has been described in many publications by
myself and others, including both academic journals and popular media.

Web Games There are many web sites which let one bet on sports, but
the Foresight Exchange (FX, previously called Idea Futures) was the
first general web betting game, and was the first to allow users to
introduce new claims to bet on. Begun by Sean Morgan, it won the 1995
Prix Ars Electronica Golden Nica for world's best web site. Over 1500
players now bet play money on over 200 questions of their choosing.
Check out the current betting odds, an independent 'Zine, and m o r e.
The game's developers once formed a business, Ideosphere (now wholely
owned by Kumo Software) that now seems defunct. Recently other
play-money markets have appeared, such as Hollywood Stock Exchange,
Invisible Hand Electronic Market, Fanatasy Futures, and NewsBet. (I
have no relation with or stake in any of these ventures.) I think the
odds in these markets are often too optimistic, but they do pretty
well considering, and a real money market would do much better.

(Another web market, Java Idea Futures, isn't really an Idea Future in
the above sense; they trade perhaps-not-yet-written Java Applets.)

Other Demonstrations

* Real money political markets, such as Iowa Electronic Markets
and WahlStreet, predict election outcomes better than opinion polls.
* All of our familiar financial instruments - stocks, insurance,
commodity futures, options -- were once forbidden by anti-gambling
laws. Laws could change to favor Idea Futures too.
* Some credit derivatives pay out if agencies downgrade the credit
rating of a company's debt. This shows that subjective judgements by
established judges can be used to settle bets.
* Governments tend to use prizes less than private patrons. When
science was patronized more by private sources, prizes were used much
more often. Prizes are not infeasible now.

Legal Limits The main immediate limitation to larger scale
demonstrations are the facts that betting is generally illegal, and
that securities are highly regulated.

To get an Idea Futures market approved as a security in the US, you'd
need CFTC approval. But they require expensive review, require you to
set up a physical pit for trading there, and are sure that there is no
point to markets where there is not substantial hedging demand.
(Respected academics can sometimes get exceptions though.)

Betting is illegal in most of the world (including Nevada), with
exceptions carved out over the years by special interests, such as for
horse bets, lotteries, and casinos. Only the UK, to my knowledge,
allows non-sports betting. Some off-shore gambling places are now
soliciting folks citizens to bet with them by phone (e.g.,
1-800-I-CAN-BET) or internet (e.g., Internet Casino). It will be
interesting to see how strongly U.S. police and legislators react to
discourage U.S. citizens using the web to bet in these foreign
markets. See also these discussions of legal issues.

Close, but not enough

* Stocks and bonds are bets on big bundles of ideas: underlying
technology, business strategy, marketing skill, prices of input
factors, market demand, etc. You want to bet on just what you think
you know about.
* Derivatives are usually required to have prices predictable from
the underlying instruments they derive from. Many believe that the
right combination of existing instruments can reproduce any bet, so
new instruments only lower transaction costs. They're wrong.
* Insurance companies can sell arbitrary bets, but only to those
with an "insurable interest".
* Regulators only allow Commodity Futures where someone needs to
insure against big risks.
* British bookies can take any bets, but insist on setting prices
instead of being market-makers. So they won't bet on stuff, like
science, they don't understand.

History I generated this idea in the fall of 1988. See our article
describing some history of the web game and of my involvement with the
idea. I've found several prior publications where others had similar
ideas. I think I've thought the idea through more though.

Critics Here is all the web published criticism of idea futures that I know of.

* Sasha Chislenko long ago offered some friendly criticism, to
which I responded in print.
* I replied to some criticism published in special issue of Social
Epistemology.
* A varitey of informal criticism is found in the if-discuss
archives. See for example comments by Ken Fishkin, Hugh Hoover, and
Peter McCluskey. My replies can be found from those posts.
* Henry See and Michael Century are artists who complain that
since Idea Futures uses numbers, it limits human expressiveness. I
reply.

Robin Hanson (e-mail address removed) First version, June 12, 1996
 
Y

Yukihiro Matsumoto

Hi,

In message "Re: speeding ruby development"

|Is it just going slow, or is it worse than that? Is lack of funding the main
|trouble? I didn't expect to see you suggest Paypal donations.

Since I am paid for Ruby, I don't need any funding. Some among other
developers _might_ please the economical support for travel expense,
server hosting etc.

matz.
 
Y

Yukihiro Matsumoto

Hi,

In message "Re: speeding ruby development"

|I think actually supporting someone on a full salary would be very
|hard or impossible, just because of scale, but I certainly foresee
|Ruby Central serving as a kind of clearinghouse for support for
|projects (beyond RubyConf, that is) once the tax-exempt status comes
|through. (Maybe we're being too pessimistic about people and
|companies donating on a non-exempt basis (?), but that's been our
|judgement so far.)

If it's not too hard, start accepting donation without tax deduction,
just because we, non USA citizens will not get the deduction anyway.
I can donate some for this year's RubyConf, which I can not help by
attending.

matz.
 
F

Friedrich Dominicus

David Garamond said:
I personally would very much like Ruby development to be sped up. We
have been hearing about Ruby2 for a long time now but there's not a sign
of it coming anytime soon. Does matz want Ruby development to be faster
or is he generally satisfied with the current pace? (I admit things like
good design or "inspirations" often cannot be forced.)
Why do you need a Ruby 2?

What are you missing?
What is supposed to be added to Ruby 2.0

What makes Ruby 1.8 inadequate?

Friedrich
 
D

David Garamond

Friedrich said:
Why do you need a Ruby 2?

What are you missing?
What is supposed to be added to Ruby 2.0

What makes Ruby 1.8 inadequate?

os threads, gc improvements, (and perhaps precompilation/bytecode too).
if i have to choose one, then os threads.

all of the above are really useful for writing:
- [windows] desktop apps;
- servers/daemons;
- commercial apps;

i'd really like to be able to write linux & windows multithreaded,
long-running programs in ruby that are stable and fast-performing.

the language itself is great, i don't think there's something i want
changed/added badly. i have only minor rants with the language.
 

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