K
Keith Thompson
Paul Mesken said:
But you just did.
But you just did.
B
Ben Pfaff
Guillaume said:
A fairly simple preprocessor can convert Ratfor, which has a
passing resemblance to C, into Fortran. The code in _Software
Tools_ by Kernighan and Plauger, written in Ratfor, is really
quite reminiscent of C programs to do the same things. (And an
appendix describes the Ratfor->Fortran translator).
P
Paul Mesken
But as a programming tool, not as a language. The level of abstraction
is just too low in Assembly
R
Richard Bos
Paul Mesken said:
<http://www.catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/T/Turing-tar-pit.html>, second
item.
HTH; HAND.
No, it wouldn't. Nor would it contradict it. It is orthogonal to it, and
it's also untrue.
Richard
P
Paul Mesken
Holy Wars. And it doesn't even mention C/C++ versus Assembly. Has
everyone forgotten about my contributions in the past? That's like as
if WW2 isn't even mentioned in "Global Conflicts" ;-)
M
Mark McIntyre
Past performance is no guarantee of future returns, as some of us are
obligated to tell our clients...
It isn't, in Russian or American schoolbooks. At least, not with the
right dates in either case, and in the former case its called The
Great Patriotic War.
M
Michael Wojcik
Yes, it really is a language (and there's no need to capitalize
"assembly" in English, since it's not a proper noun). Any assembly
language consists of a set of symbols and rules for constructing
valid sentences from them. That's what defines a language.
How would this make it not a language?
No, there are different assembly languages. Each of them is still
a language.
And yet several people in this very discussion have successfully
compared them. Why, you have yourself! Congratulations.
P
Paul Mesken
Perhaps you should also point out to Mark that "C" and "Fortran" are
not proper nouns either
At least I'm consistent with my capitals.
That's what defines a formal scheme. I agree that Assembly is a formal
scheme.
M
Michael Wojcik
Perhaps you should also point out to Mark that "C" and "Fortran" are
not proper nouns either
In English, "C" and "Fortran" *are* proper nouns.
In computing theory, as it's expressed in English, that's what
defines a language. "Formal scheme" has no generally accepted
meaning as a term of art in computing theory expressed in English
that I'm aware of. If you wish to invent your own terminology, I
don't believe we can (easily and legally) stop you, but please be
aware that that, too, does not constitute an argument.
--
Michael Wojcik (e-mail address removed)
Therefore, it is possible to enjoy further by using under the
Netscape 2.0. However, Netscape will hangup at sometimes. You
should give it up. -- roro
P
Paul Mesken
Sigh...
I'd suggest that you read David Marr's "Vision" and the part "1.2
Understanding Complex Information-Processing Systems".
I think that's the perfect introduction to terms like "Formal Scheme",
"Formal System", "Computational Theory", "Algorithm", etc. and how
they all fit together.
I shall glance over the fact that you try to cast doubts over my
command of the English language.
I didn't invent the terms, nor their definitions. I wish I would
P
Paul Mesken
Not all nouns start with a capital letter. The word "Assembly" is a
noun, however.
Words that are names for a language, like "Dutch", "German",
"English", etc. are started with a capital letter.
So, if C and Fortran are considered languages then I guess it would be
okay to start them with a capital letter (which I do consistently
anyway).
But you argue that Assembly is such a language as well. So, by your
own argument, "Assembly" should be started with a capital
M
Mark McIntyre
So bloody well what? This has what precisely to do with ISO C?
idiot.
P
Paul Mesken
Well, don't look at me. I didn't brought this stuff up whether
Assembly should or should not be written with a capital. You have to
thank Michale for that.
Is that the best you've got?
P
Paul Mesken
I meant "Michael", of course.
M
Michael Wojcik
In Marr's opinion, perhaps. It takes more than one reference to
demonstrate a consensus.
The definition I proposed agrees with Cohen, _Introduction to
Computer Theory_; Knuth, TAOCP 1 (it's even the definition given in
the index entry for "language"); Gersting, _Mathematical Structures
for Computer Science_; Aho, Sethi, Ullman, _Compilers_ (the "Dragon
book"); Holub, _Compiler Design in C_. Those are just references I
happen to have handy.
Now please explain why I should believe your definition, and Marr's
(assuming his actually agrees with you), over all of those. And
please demonstrate that there's any consensus among computing theory
practitioners that your definition is superior.
You misread. I was merely noting that terms of art in a field may
differ according to the language in which they're expressed.
I have little evidence from which to draw conclusions about your
grasp of English. Nor do I care, particularly.
I didn't invent the terms, nor their definitions. I wish I would
I never said you did. You're inventing your own *terminology* (not
terms) by insisting on distinctions which are not generally
recognized by practitioners in the field.
But thanks for playing, and better luck next time, eh?
--
Michael Wojcik (e-mail address removed)
This is a "rubbering action game," a 2D platformer where you control a
girl equipped with an elastic rope with a fishing hook at the end.
-- review of _Umihara Kawase Shun_ for the Sony Playstation
M
Michael Wojcik
True, in English. Proper nouns in English are generally written with
an initial capital; common nouns are not, except at the beginning of
a sentence. None of this is relevant to whether "C" and "Fortran" are
proper nouns.
I have a degree in English. Your time might be better spent teaching
your grandmother the finer points of egg-sucking.
"However"? That was never in dispute.
Yes, if they're proper nouns, they are generally written with an
initial capital. Do you have a point?
No, I argued that assembly languages are languages. I never argued
that "assembly" was a proper noun, or that it was the name of a
distinct language. If you believe otherwise, please provide a specific
direct quotation to the contrary.
--
Michael Wojcik (e-mail address removed)
Painful lark, labouring to rise!
The solemn mallet says:
In the grave's slot
he lies. We rot. -- Basil Bunting
M
Mark McIntyre
Its the best I'm prepared to waste. You got a point thats topical
here, relating to this discussion?
P
Paul Mesken
Hmm, Knuth writes "assembly" with a lower case letter. He's also
speaking of "assembly language". Knuth does carry some weight around
(being a "demigod").
Amazing...
BUT that won't stop me from unilaterally declaring victory! (my
specialty) I will persist in writing Assembly with a capital 'A' in
order to underline its superior character. My rebellious and defiant
stance will be an inspiration to millions all over the World. Ha!
P
Paul Mesken
I don't think any point I've made in this thread is topical here
(perhaps not surpisingly). I didn't mean to do such a thing at all.
I just take pleasure in that I was able to drag you into this for so
many off-topic posts, making you a kind of accomplice in my evil ploy.
There you have it. While you thought you were fighting me you were
actually a minion of mine. A mere instrument to bypass kill files, not
to mention a way to increase off topic volume (I'm not a filibuster
like Scott Nudds, I need accomplices).
[ froggy voice ] Everything that has transpired has done so according
to my design.
It's obvious that the "rabid C priests" here like to stick up for each
other and show contempt to Assembly programmers like you have done for
Paul Hsieh but Assembly programmers also like to stick up for each
other and there are few things "rabid C priests" hate as much as off
topic posts in this group. You have helped me greatly with taking
revenge. Torek was wise not take my bait.
Mark : "OH NO! I realise now that I have become the very thing I hate
the most. Why? Why are you revealing this terrible thing to me?".
Paulpatine : "Because I want you to _suffer_, my young apprentice. I
can feel your anger. Now, turn down C and use Assembly.".
Mark : "Never! I will never be turned! You've failed, your Highness."
Paulpatine : "Young fool! Experience the full power of the Dark Side
of the Code".
[ lightning shooting from the Dark Lord's fingers, engulfing the
hapless C priest with pain and agony ]
etc.
M
Mark McIntyre
Yeah, whatever. You really are a dick head it seems.
And FWIW most of my posts were topical, since a) discussion of
topicality is always topical and b) my point was, the ISO standard
mandates no obligations on performance.
so enjoy your pleasure, its entirely imaginary.