What does this mean??

[Roedy Green]

CRAP. Reread the charter.

Perhaps you would care to post the url.

Why do you think the guy who wrote the charter many years ago knows
more about how we should use this newsgroup than the people using it
today who have had a lot more experience than he had?

 

[Roedy Green]

Personally I believe the difference is that caps make it harder to read
messages - and that's the general concensus I've seen in a lot of places.
That's why they bother me, while the other forms do not.

The people who get extremely upset with a few words in all caps are
not concerned with legibility. They would be spelling and grammar
weenies if they were.

They strongly associate them with being shouted and physically
threatened, rather than mere emphasis. They may have received an
unusually large number of email death threats, and feel queasy at
anything similar.

They sometimes even react to clearly non-threatening messages, such as
a job posting, with alarm.

there are some other e m p h a t i c forms. (That one foils
search).

_emphatic_ is restrained.

emphatic! has a dull edge from overuse in advertising.

Emoticons and smileys were invented for this sort of communication.
see http://mindprod.com/jgloss/emoticon.html

This brings up my old argument that we need at some point to start
using rich text in newsgroups where you have other ways of expressing
emphasis without some people inferring physical threat

If you grew up in family of seven as I did, shouting is normal, not
alarming. To an only child, even a mildly raised voice can be
terrifying.

 

[Thomas G. Marshall]

Roedy Green coughed up:

How do you think we should use the two newsgroups?

Use them how you like.

But do not berate someone by calling their ignorant questions "stupid" as
Andrew did, and do not act as if someone has done something wrong by posting
an advanced question in .help, or a newbie question in .programmer.

/If/ you want to say things to the effect of "you might get better response
in x.y.z" that seems perfectly innocuous to me. I see that sometimes here
regarding .help. But leave off the "because it's supposed to be for
<substitute/>". I also see far too much of a maniacal attitude that smells
of "you should know better than to post here."

 

[Ted Present]

If you want to reach a larger audience then please refrain from using
abbreviations (e.g., OT) as not everyone will be familar with them.

I see your point. I've used web forums and Usenet for some time, and, at
least for me, acronyms like OT are subconsiously translated to "Off Topic."
However, it does not take significantly extra effort to type out "Off
Topic," and doing so would make it that much clearer to that many more
people. I guess the best thing would be to just make translating acronyms
into what they stand for part of my "proof-read-my-post-before-submission"
routine. The only problem is, it's another bad (depending on your stance,
of course) habit I need to break.

--Ted

 

[Thomas G. Marshall]

Roedy Green coughed up:

....[rip]...

This brings up my old argument that we need at some point to start
using rich text in newsgroups where you have other ways of expressing
emphasis without some people inferring physical threat

I too have been long arguing that usenet is destined for all HTML all the
time (or something similar) sooner or later. I've been verbally beaten for
such heresy! It's such a threat to many for some reason. I am quick to
point out that the argument that "it is a text-only medium" and "HTML would
make it incompatible with many newsreaders" are similar arguments held 10
years ago by those hollering at me for advocating HTML in email, which is
now ubiquitous.


....[rip]...

 

[Thomas G. Marshall]

Roedy Green coughed up:

Perhaps you would care to post the url.

Why do you think the guy who wrote the charter many years ago knows
more about how we should use this newsgroup than the people using it
today who have had a lot more experience than he had?

The charter for the newsgroup itself is its description. That is managed
here, every month, in a PGP signed message sent to news.groups,
news.announce.newgroups, and news.lists.misc.

http://groups.google.com/group/news.announce.newgroups/msg/12f8298409d31c7a


Or you can read the same thing here:

ftp://ftp.isc.org/pub/usenet/CONFIG/newsgroups


The point is that someone reading the description from their own ISP when he
is looking for a java group to subscribe to has no indication at all of a
newbie group. None. And then he posts here, and gets berated? Enough is
enough of that crap.

 

[Jack]

The point is that someone reading the description from their own ISP when he
is looking for a java group to subscribe to has no indication at all of a
newbie group. None. And then he posts here, and gets berated? Enough is
enough of that crap.

What you say is true, Thomas, and this debate has gone on for years -
because the original charters were probably ill advised.

Plus, no newbie reads the charters anyway Well, maybe 2 or 3 since
the big bang did

Still, here's my own ever-so-humble solution: no one should berate the
newbies, unless they keep disregarding polite suggestions to take
newbie stuff to the clj.help group.

People who bully newbies are jerks. But newbies who abuse the sytem
are jerks, too. Still, if newbies put [newbie] in the Subject, things
would mostly be solved. And if everybody was nice, we wouldn't even
need jails, either

 

[Thomas G. Marshall]

Jack coughed up:

The point is that someone reading the description from their own ISP when
he
is looking for a java group to subscribe to has no indication at all of a
newbie group. None. And then he posts here, and gets berated? Enough
is
enough of that crap.

What you say is true, Thomas, and this debate has gone on for years -
because the original charters were probably ill advised.

Plus, no newbie reads the charters anyway Well, maybe 2 or 3 since
the big bang did

Still, here's my own ever-so-humble solution: no one should berate the
newbies, unless they keep disregarding polite suggestions to take
newbie stuff to the clj.help group.

People who bully newbies are jerks. But newbies who abuse the sytem
are jerks, too. Still, if newbies put [newbie] in the Subject, things
would mostly be solved. And if everybody was nice, we wouldn't even
need jails, either

And if every newbie in the java groups posted to .programmer instead of
..help, it would cost you very little to ignore them all.

 

[Thomas G. Marshall]

Jack coughed up:

What you say is true, Thomas, and this debate has gone on for years -
because the original charters were probably ill advised.

Plus, no newbie reads the charters anyway Well, maybe 2 or 3 since
the big bang did

That's just not true. As I pointed out already, these descriptions are
often supplied by the ISP alongside the names of the newsgroups, or are
otherwise easily accessible, /at/ the time they subscribe to it. It's how
you were supposed to know what group to subscribe to *in the first place*.

Still, here's my own ever-so-humble solution: no one should berate the
newbies, unless they keep disregarding polite suggestions to take
newbie stuff to the clj.help group.

People who bully newbies are jerks. But newbies who abuse the sytem
are jerks, too. Still, if newbies put [newbie] in the Subject, things
would mostly be solved. And if everybody was nice, we wouldn't even
need jails, either

 

[Roedy Green]

The charter for the newsgroup itself is its description. That is managed
here, every month, in a PGP signed message sent to news.groups,
news.announce.newgroups, and news.lists.misc.

Who sent it ?

A long time ago we had a vote about the various newsgroups and it has
remained unchanged since then.

There was some formal process for taking such a vote, making the
proposals etc. It seemed a heck of a lot of fuss at the time, though
I was not involved in the details.

 

[Roedy Green]

ftp://ftp.isc.org/pub/usenet/CONFIG/newsgroups

here are the descriptions as they stand now:
comp.lang.java.3d 3D Graphics API's for the Java language.
comp.lang.java.advocacy Support for and criticism of the Java System.
comp.lang.java.announce Announcements re the Java System. (Moderated)
comp.lang.java.beans Java software components (JavaBeans).
comp.lang.java.corba Topics relating to Java and CORBA.
comp.lang.java.databases Databases, java.sql, JDBC, ODBC.
comp.lang.java.gui GUI toolkits and windowing: AWT, IFC etc.
comp.lang.java.help Set-up problems, catch-all first aid.
comp.lang.java.machine JVM, native methods, hardware.
comp.lang.java.programmer Programming in the Java language.
comp.lang.java.security Security issues raised by Java.
comp.lang.java.softwaretools IDEs, browsers, compilers, other tools.


Help is not what I would have expected. People use softwareTools for
setup problems.

 

[Timbo]

: isamura wrote:
: > :
: > : : > : >
: > : > Rectangle alloc = (a instanceof Rectangle) ? (Rectangle) a :
: > : > a.getBounds();
: > : >
: > : > Could someone translate the above code into simple java codings so i can
: > : > understand it
: > :
: > : Rectangle alloc ;
: > : if (a instanceof Rectangle) alloc = (Rectangle) a;
: > : else alloc = a.getBounds();
: > :
: >
: > I didn't think this seemingly innocent question would stir up such lively reactions...
: >
: Nor should it!
:
: > Actually I appreciate this helpful and more direct response. However, the question does bring up
: > some interesting points (for me anyway).
: >
: > 1. I don't see the benefits of using the first form syntax, in terms of code maintenance and
: > readability.
: >
: For the example in the original post, I agree with you here.
: However, other times, I find the short hand quite useful. Consider
: trying to find the absolute value of an integer, i:
:
: final int abs = i > 0 ? i : -i;
:
: I think this is nicer than the alternative:
: final int abs;
: if (i > 0) {
: abs = i;
: }
: else {
: abs = -i;
: }
:
: or even the more compect
: final int abs;
: if (i > 0) abs = i;
: else abs = -i;
:
The following would also work,

final int abs = i;
if (i < 0) abs = -i;

No it wouldn't, because 'abs' is declared as final, so you can
only assign a value to it once.

I will check the docs but for abs, it might be better if the following is available,

final int abs = i.abs(); // or perhaps Integer.abs(i);

I'm sure there is a library method for calculating the absolute
value of a number, but I just wanted a simple example. I would
almost bet that any such library method uses the shorthand instead
of the if-then-else version.

: > 2. Why two forms that says the same thing? Perhaps the javac has an inferior complex and feels
: > better that it can process a more "advanced" form syntax <grin>?
: >
: A lot of programming language syntax is redundant. 'for' loops can
: be expressions using 'while', but both are useful. I guess it's
: all about giving the programmer options. If you don't like one
: way, you can do it another.
:
I don't agree completely here since both for and while have their specific uses, whereas the if
syntax forms don't.

I disagree. A for loop is shorthand for a while loop. There is
nothing you can do in a for that cannot be done using while, but
still, you would have a hard time finding a Java programming that
doesn't use both.

What's more, the ternary-if statement is an expression, whereas
the if-then-else form is a statement, and so has no value. So
there is really more justification for this than there is for
'for' loops.

 

[Roedy Green]

I'm sure there is a library method for calculating the absolute
value of a number, but I just wanted a simple example. I would
almost bet that any such library method uses the shorthand instead
of the if-then-else version.

public static int abs(int a) {
return (a < 0) ? -a : a;

 

[Gordon Beaton]

Gordon Beaton coughed up:

Did you mean that the division is /unfortunately/ unsuccessful, or
that the division was unfortunate. If I had my druthers I would
probably have wanted the following:

comp.lang.java catch-all
comp.lang.java.beginners noobs
comp.lang.java.advanced advanced

It was an unfortunate division, which is probably why it's been
unsuccessful.

I'd be in favour of dropping clj.help altogether. I don't see any need
for more than one "general java programming discussion" group, which
is what both clj.help and clj.programmer are (and comp.lang.java was
before it was dropped).

I certainly don't see any particular point in making a distinction
based on difficulty, since not everybody shares the same idea of what
is difficult and what isn't. Many people would post to both groups
anyway, or they would post their easy questions to the advanced group
and get chastised for it, i.e. the same situation we have today.

Honestly, who really cares if easy and difficult topics are discussed
in the same group?

/gordon

 

[Thomas G. Marshall]

Roedy Green coughed up:

here are the descriptions as they stand now:
comp.lang.java.3d 3D Graphics API's for the Java language.
comp.lang.java.advocacy Support for and criticism of the Java System.
comp.lang.java.announce Announcements re the Java System. (Moderated)
comp.lang.java.beans Java software components (JavaBeans).
comp.lang.java.corba Topics relating to Java and CORBA.
comp.lang.java.databases Databases, java.sql, JDBC, ODBC.
comp.lang.java.gui GUI toolkits and windowing: AWT, IFC etc.
comp.lang.java.help Set-up problems, catch-all first aid.
comp.lang.java.machine JVM, native methods, hardware.
comp.lang.java.programmer Programming in the Java language.
comp.lang.java.security Security issues raised by Java.
comp.lang.java.softwaretools IDEs, browsers, compilers, other tools.

Yes, I've posted this already.

Help is not what I would have expected.

No kidding.

 

[Thomas G. Marshall]

Roedy Green coughed up:

public static int abs(int a) {
return (a < 0) ? -a : a;

Perhaps not in float/double land. Maybe there are NaN and +oo and -oo to
worry about, and their specific consequences.

 

[Roedy Green]

Perhaps not in float/double land. Maybe there are NaN and +oo and -oo to
worry about, and their specific consequences.

Turns out not:

/**
* Returns the absolute value of a <code>double</code> value.
* If the argument is not negative, the argument is returned.
* If the argument is negative, the negation of the argument is
returned.
* Special cases:
* <ul><li>If the argument is positive zero or negative zero, the
result
* is positive zero.
* <li>If the argument is infinite, the result is positive
infinity.
* <li>If the argument is NaN, the result is NaN.</ul>
* In other words, the result is the same as the value of the
expression:
*
<p><code>Double.longBitsToDouble((Double.doubleToLongBits(a)&lt;&lt;1)&gt;&gt;&gt;1)</code>
*
* @param a the argument whose absolute value is to be
determined
* @return the absolute value of the argument.
*/
public static double abs(double a) {
return (a <= 0.0D) ? 0.0D - a : a;
}

the interesting thing is the

0.0D -a
not just -a

Where's Patricia to explain the conditions those are not equivalent?

Someone could find out by experiment. there are not that many quirky
double literals.

 

[Timbo]

public static int abs(int a) {
return (a < 0) ? -a : a;

I knew it!

 

[zero]

Roedy Green coughed up:

...[rip]...

This brings up my old argument that we need at some point to start
using rich text in newsgroups where you have other ways of expressing
emphasis without some people inferring physical threat

I too have been long arguing that usenet is destined for all HTML all
the time (or something similar) sooner or later. I've been verbally
beaten for such heresy! It's such a threat to many for some reason.
I am quick to point out that the argument that "it is a text-only
medium" and "HTML would make it incompatible with many newsreaders"
are similar arguments held 10 years ago by those hollering at me for
advocating HTML in email, which is now ubiquitous.


...[rip]...

I guess I'm old school then, because I still dislike html in email. I
never use it. And I believe many of the problems associated with email are
caused by the common use of html mails. The most obvious and recent is the
use of images by spammers to confirm the validity of email addresses -
which has caused several clients to give the user the option of turning off
the loading of images in mails, defeating the purpose - as well as
confusing people who are not as confident with computers.

It's true that simple rich text doesn't have such problems. Perhaps a html
or xml subset could work for emails. Unfortunately there currently is no
such universally accepted standard for rich text.

I don't see why we can't just use smileys and other methods.

 

[zero]

The people who get extremely upset with a few words in all caps are
not concerned with legibility. They would be spelling and grammar
weenies if they were.

I don't know if I fall under the "extremely upset" category, but for me the
principal reason to dislike all caps is really the readability. Reading
messages in all caps takes me a lot longer than reading proper
capitalization.

Studies have shown that, on average, German can be read faster than other
west-european languages exactly because of the good use of capitalization.
Therefore it stands to reason that writing in all lower letters or all caps
makes reading harder. I don't really have a problem reading all lower
letters, but all caps does go slower for me.