Why "lock" functionality is introduced for all the objects?

[blmblm]

What does Latin have to do with Java, BGB?

About as much as the gender of names does -- and aren't you the one
who brought that up?

No, just the names that do.

I think for Japanese names this is not true. Check Wikipedia under
"Akira Endo" for two examples.

Yes, "i" instead of "y" endings are also usually feminine.

In Japanese?

What does your public drunkenness have to do with Java, BGB?


What does your hallucination have to do with Java, BGB?

This style is starting to be alarmingly familiar ....

[ snip ]

 

[Alex J]

I'm curious why Java designers once decided to allow every object to
be lockable (i.e. [sic] allow using lock on those).

Because that makes it possible to do concurrent programming intrinsically..

What I tried to say is that other design approaches make it possible
too.
IMO it is not that hard to write, say

(1)
public class SyncObj implements Lockable {
public sychronized void foo() {...}

public void bar() { synchronized (this) {...} }
}

(2)
public class ObjWithLock {
private SimpleLock lock = new SimpleLock();

public void bar() { synchronized (lock) {...} }
}

Well, that's your opinion.


Oh, yeah, your opinion is humble.

sorry for looking naive, but I'm trying to get in-depth knowledge,
that's why I asked this question.
Of course I didn't kept in mind that Java designers introduced
inefficient approach and my (or whoever else) option is the best.

Yes.  Nonexistent, really.

Several days ago I tried to figure out how much is the overhead
introduced by boxing operation.
Consider the following two classes, Foo and Bar, defined as follows:

public class Foo {
private int a;

private int b;

public int getA() {
return a;
}

public void setA(int a) {
this.a = a;
}

public int getB() {
return b;
}

public void setB(int b) {
this.b = b;
}

@Override
public String toString() {
return "Bar#{ a = " + a + ", b = " + b + " }";
}
}

public class Bar {
private int a;

private Integer b; // this is the only difference between Bar and
Foo.

public int getA() {
return a;
}

public void setA(int a) {
this.a = a;
}

public Integer getB() {
return b;
}

public void setB(Integer b) {
this.b = b;
}


@Override
public String toString() {
return "Bar#{ a = " + a + ", b = " + b + " }";
}
}


Then try to allocate 1000000 of each and put it to an array:

public static final int ARR_SIZE = 1000000;

private static void printMemUsage(String checkpoint) {
System.out.println(MessageFormat.format("Mem usage at {0}:
total={1}, free={2}",
checkpoint, Runtime.getRuntime().totalMemory(),
Runtime.getRuntime().freeMemory()));
}

private static void testBarAlloc() throws IOException {
printMemUsage("enter testBarAlloc");

final Bar[] barChunk = new Bar[ARR_SIZE];

final long before = System.currentTimeMillis();

for (int j = 0; j < ARR_SIZE; ++j) {
final Bar bar = new Bar();
bar.setA(-j);
bar.setB(1 + j);
barChunk[j] = bar;
}

final long total = System.currentTimeMillis() - before;
System.out.println(MessageFormat.format("Bar alloc done; total
time: {0}", total));
printMemUsage("bar alloc iteration");
// ......
}


On 32-bit Sun JVM 1.6.0_24 on my Mac OS X 10.6 I got approx 32000000
bytes overhead in case of using Bar (with Integer field) what in its
turn proves, that using Integer instead of int results in extra 32
bytes allocation per each object.

I may only guess that probably lock monitors also contributes to this
overhead but I can't figure out how much.
I've no option to run JVM with option that switches off lock
functionality completely out of language and internal object layout.

If I write the same by using plain C, I'd come up with the following
representation:

struct Integer {
struct IntegerVptr * vmt; // pointer to virtual methods table

int intValue;
}

struct Foo {
struct FooVptr * vmt;

int a;
Integer * b;
}

comparing to

struct Bar {
struct BarVptr * vmt;

int a;
int b;
}

we have 8 bytes overhead per each Foo instance (in case of
preallocating all the necessary object or by using the special purpose
fixed-size allocator).

Keeping in mind the difference C vs Java implementation I can only
speculate on how much lock functionality contributes to that overhead.

[snip]

 

[John B. Matthews]

On 32-bit Sun JVM 1.6.0_24 on my Mac OS X 10.6

FYI: <http://support.apple.com/kb/DL1360>

 

[BGB]

About as much as the gender of names does -- and aren't you the one
who brought that up?

yep.

the rule:
ends in 'a' -> feminine;
ends in 'o' -> masculine;
....

is primarily associated with latin-derived languages, but the pattern
has spread in large part to many European languages.

however, much outside this space (such as in Asian languages), and the
rule falls on its face.
unless one knows the names, there is little way to know whether it is a
male name or a female name.

"sounds male" or "sounds female" is not an accurate measure, as it more
reflects on ones' source language or source culture than what is
actually the case.

I think for Japanese names this is not true. Check Wikipedia under
"Akira Endo" for two examples.

yep.

Japanese doesn't really follow the same rules.

not like it is some guy with a name like "Chibichibi Hitomi" or

In Japanese?

at least partly true of Japanese, as many female names end in 'i',
especially 'mi' and 'ni'.

for example "Hitomi" or "Kazumi" (female) vs "Kamina" or "Tougusa" (male).

but, then, "Kagura" is a female name and "Takumi" is male.

This style is starting to be alarmingly familiar ....

this was all itself partial references to Japanese culture.

basically, if an adult male character has a name and does things
stereotypical of a schoolgirl-type character.

also a character doing exaggerated expressions as a narrator announces
it their expressions. basically, the loud-mouth interjecting narrator
which ruins nearly any chance of "subtlety" in the scene by overtly
describing the events taking place on screen, or directly explaining the
plot to the audience...

this is in contrast to the narrator in more western shows which usually
has a much narrower role, such as describing events being recalled from
the past or similar, and more often narrators are absent altogether for
shows not taking place as part of someones' memory. also the narrator is
usually an older version of one of the characters on-screen, rather than
some unnammed 3rd party or "omnipresent voice" (who comments both in
scenes involving both the protagonists and antagonists), or who comments
in real-time (similar to an announcer or sports commentator).



or such...

 

[supercalifragilisticexpialadiamaticonormalizeringe]

public class Foo {
private int a;

private int b;
....


public class Bar {
private int a;

private Integer b; // this is the only difference between Bar and
Foo.
....

using Integer instead of int results in extra 32
bytes allocation per each object.

WTF? I'd have expected 12: 8 for the Integer's object header and 4 for
its int field, the b fields in both Foo and Bar being 4 bytes so no
change there.

Somewhere there's an extra 20 bytes per Bar or even per Integer being
gobbled up.

 

[KitKat]

About as much as the gender of names does -- and aren't you the one
who brought that up?

Actually, Tom Anderson was the one who prompted it by posting a
feminine-sounding name and following it up with male pronouns.

I think for Japanese names this is not true. Check Wikipedia under
"Akira Endo" for two examples.
???


In Japanese?

In general.

This style is starting to be alarmingly familiar ....

Yes, I was imitating a bit the weirdo calling himself "tholen" that
posted a few things here a month or two ago. I thought it might be
amusing since the latter bits of BGB's post weren't particularly
understandable or, apparently, relevant.

 

[blmblm]

Actually, Tom Anderson was the one who prompted it by posting a
feminine-sounding name and following it up with male pronouns.

???

I don't know what you're asking here -- perhaps what I mean by "two
examples"? If I go to the main Wikipedia page and do a search on
"Akira Endo" I get a page that lists two people named Akira Endo
(a biochemist and a conductor), and the articles about of them
indicate that both are male. What do you get? Did you want URLs?

(I looked up that name because I vaguely remembered the conductor.
I didn't know about the biochemist, but perhaps it's not an uncommon
name in Japan.)

In general.

What makes you think this rule is universal, when the one about
names ending in 'a' or 'o' isn't?

Yes, I was imitating a bit the weirdo calling himself "tholen" that
posted a few things here a month or two ago. I thought it might be
amusing since the latter bits of BGB's post weren't particularly
understandable or, apparently, relevant.

"We are not amused"? (Well, I'm not.) I figured the parts
of BGB's post that didn't make sense to me were a reference to
something I didn't know about. I'd have guessed anime, that being
of Japanese origin and popular among (some) techie types, though
BGB's follow-up today indicates I'd have been wrong about that.
I don't mind the occasional digression, within reason. I think
this one is about to exceed the limit, if it hasn't already, so
will try not to reply further.

 

[Steve Erwin]

I don't know what you're asking here -- perhaps what I mean by "two
examples"? If I go to the main Wikipedia page and do a search on
"Akira Endo" I get a page that lists two people named Akira Endo
(a biochemist and a conductor), and the articles about of them
indicate that both are male. What do you get? Did you want URLs?

(I looked up that name because I vaguely remembered the conductor.
I didn't know about the biochemist, but perhaps it's not an uncommon
name in Japan.)


What makes you think this rule is universal, when the one about
names ending in 'a' or 'o' isn't?


"We are not amused"? (Well, I'm not.) I figured the parts
of BGB's post that didn't make sense to me were a reference to
something I didn't know about. I'd have guessed anime, that being
of Japanese origin and popular among (some) techie types, though
BGB's follow-up today indicates I'd have been wrong about that.
I don't mind the occasional digression, within reason. I think
this one is about to exceed the limit, if it hasn't already, so
will try not to reply further.

As opposed to the idiot you respond to, BGB has an
extensive passive record of Usenet contribution.
[otoh] Paul Derbyshire (KitKat) cannot keep the same
sock for more than brief series of posts. It is one of
his trademarks. Another is never will he provide more
than bluster and that verbose hyperbole he is well
known for.
"All talk no substance" is our Paul :-/

BGB's profile - took just two minutes of time to
discover:
http://groups.google.com/groups/pro...ADN7svbjKFmbtu94uFL4OxHWMj6vob75xS36mXc24h6ww
One of the earliest examples of that posters
contribution.
Not familiar with the topic, yet I see "expert" leaping
from the read.
http://al.howardknight.net/msgid.cgi?STYPE=msgid&MSGI=<[email protected]>

You wrote "I think
this one is about to exceed the limit".
By engaging Paul you only serve to feed him, on
anything, he will accept anything as fodder to build a
troll from.
Nobody has a purpose in taking him to a place where it
is felt "this one is about to exceed the limit". A
simple check of the posting Host is enough to hold back
**any** response.

See -->X-Complaints-To: (e-mail address removed)
?
Key "DEL" unread.

Paul has painted himself into a corner, over time.
news.aioe.org is the only free server which is
tolerating his Bullshit, at this time. He has been
booted from all the other portals of generosity.
Paul will not use his paid subscription with Giganews
nor the account he has weazled from Eternal September
(after being booted from there) to troll from.
He is reluctant to always use his Google profiles only
because he knows many servers and most savvy
Usenet readers have those posts filtered out.

So he is very easy to spot, and easier even to control
with a filter.

Google up any of these "From" to find Paul using
news.aioe.org, and only in just the past weeks.
The whole list since his beginning days back in 2002 is
way too extensive to post.
Tim Harrison, Sulfide Eater, Chad Carmichael,
Extravagan, Meerkats, Purpleswandir, Heike
Svensson, Derek Yancey, Zxcvbnm, Greg Kelly, Willy
Wonka, Nougat Surprise, Mister Whiskers, John Harbl,
Alice, Cthun, Boojum, Katie Gerrolds, Julie Faramis,
Henry Harrison, Nancy,
And--><supercalifragilisticexpialadiamaticonormalizeringelimatisticantations@averylongandannoyingdomainname.com>

Paul mentions "the weirdo calling himself "tholen""
which is most ironic as it is "tholen" who has provided
Paul with many lessons on how to circumvent filters.
Paul is brilliant at copying other peoples work, both
"good" and "bad". It is how he has existed since his
school days, after failing miserably on his own oats.

There were two or three posters here in cljp who knew
all this. Where they are today is likely the same place
Paul has driven many others.
Off Usenet.
It is what he does. Paul cannot play so nobody else
can.
That is his thinking.

--


regards

Steve

 

[blmblm]

[ snip ]

As opposed to the idiot you respond to, BGB has an
extensive passive record of Usenet contribution.

Oh my, I really did not express myself clearly, did I? What I
think is about to go out of bounds is this subthread as a whole, not
BGB's participation. As best I can tell he makes plenty of on-topic
contributions, and speaking only for myself *I* don't think there's
anything wrong with the occasional digression from such a person.
My record's not nearly so good, alas, and if there was an intent
to criticize, it was aimed far more at myself than at BGB.

[ snip ]

 

[Steve Erwin]

(e-mail address removed) <[email protected]>
wrote: [cut]

"We are not amused"? (Well, I'm not.) I figured the parts
of BGB's post that didn't make sense to me were a reference to
something I didn't know about. I'd have guessed anime, that being
of Japanese origin and popular among (some) techie types, though
BGB's follow-up today indicates I'd have been wrong about that.
I don't mind the occasional digression, within reason. I think
this one is about to exceed the limit, if it hasn't already, so
will try not to reply further.

As opposed to the idiot you respond to, BGB has an
extensive passive record of Usenet contribution.

Oh my, I really did not express myself clearly, did I?

I am going to rip off an expression from The Great Book
of Yarns (War Stories-fiction) and patch this wound of
yorn with "let he who be not carrying the sin cast that
first stone"... and let it rest

What I think is about to go out of bounds is this subthread as a whole, not
BGB's participation. As best I can tell he makes plenty of on-topic
contributions,

Usenet, when it works best for *readers*, is all about
folks of the ilk of BGB. The variation in pitch without
being "whacko" is exactly what is needed in making a
read. How many times have you "nodded off" in a lecture
hearing some fundamentalist pedant ramble on in
monotone on the topic, without once even acknowledging
there is an audience nor maybe regale same with a
diversionary (stay awake!) anecdotal on the mornings
exercise in the broom cupboard with the campus
cleaner (either gender-both)!?
Myself I read thousands of posts in any one week, I
publish very few, if any, some weeks. Lately (2 years+)
the likes of Paul Derbyshire are "holding the floor" in
many a group. That activity ruins my read.

As much as Paul loathes being criticized for his
stupidities, I get very proactive when an asshole ruins
my read. Such is why you see me 'pop'.
Reading people as BGB simply urges learning and the
hunting of more information, so as to "get it".
I do not need to post to learn about a topic, I do need
to be able to read to have Usenet work for me.
Thousands, nay millions, would join with that.

and speaking only for myself *I* don't think there's
anything wrong with the occasional digression from such a person.

I agree with the direction of your point. I carnt say
"wrong" however, is the word I would use.
Digression from topic only fits the "wrong" tag when it
leaves the bone of the topic entirely, like mixing fart
jokes into a thread on the biorhythms of an amoeba,
claiming validity of topic as methane production being
a biological function.
This is exactly Paul's MO, precisely.
Paul takes great umbrage when pulled over for doing
so, playing the victim card as the first pawn move.
All contrived, as the resultant flammage is his
intended outcome, as a "victolly, I claim victolly".
Paul in full flight demands he has the last word,
always.
Paul's MO is wrong, and Paul knows it.

My record's not nearly so good, alas, and if there was an intent
to criticize, it was aimed far more at myself than at BGB.

I would offer those blessed with quiet humor and a
sprinkling of intelligence would have no problem
accepting the explanation with a warm smile.

I was most surprised to stumble across posts
by Paul Derbyshire again impacting on the language
groups, as this has all been done before, on at least
three occasions in the past three years I am aware of.
In fact it is through the considerate action of one
member of cljp (at one time) that I was able to
conclusively "nail Paul's ass" in archiving provenance
for his activity elsewhere, Activity which was
impacting on a much wider section of Usenet than the
Java related groups.
That information then allowed covert email contact
with Paul Derbyshire of the Fractals/Mushrooms.
The identification then complete.
http://mushroomobserver.org/observer/show_user?_js=off&_new=true&id=621

Where those people are today I cannot know, a quick
pull of headers does not show anything familiar to
myself. Therefore I again put the information as an
addendum. There is absolutely no doubt
Paul Derbyshire of the Fractals and Paul Derbyshire
of the Mushrooms _a n d_ the plethora of posting names
used over many years are one and the same actual
person.
Paul has constructed his own problems, made his own
bed. Contrary to his belief the World owes him nothing.
Always beyond "off-topic", he is beyond that as can be
tolerated by many, only Paul can fix that.



As an aside, may I suggest you try this syntax in trn
as a "From"?
"(e-mail address removed)" <[email protected]>
The change may then allow your "nym" to list
'correctly' in the message group for all reader
software;
example of your header display in one reader is here:
https://rapidshare.com/files/664524757/trn_UsenetSyntax.jpg


Thank you for your contribution.

I bid you good day and good wind aft of the body.

cheers

--
+comp.lang.lisp,comp.lang.java.programmer
-xnaREM (for future Usenetizens)

Steve
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
http://al.howardknight.net/msgid.cgi?STYPE=msgid&MSGI=<[email protected]>
(e-mail address removed)
74.14.135.55
16 Nov 2008
(e-mail address removed)
74.14.135.55
17 Nov 2008
(e-mail address removed)
74.14.135.55
17 Nov 2008

IP : 74.14.135.55 Neighborhood
Host : bas1-ottawa10-1242466103.dsl.bell.ca
Country : Canada

Found on Google.
Read all about it.
http://groups.google.com/group/comp...d/thread/d7d67d116bd9c2e8/90b1ba4e63328fc4?q=

 

[KitKat]

As opposed to the idiot you respond to,

Ex-fucking-scuse me? Who are you calling an idiot, newbie?

[otoh] Paul Derbyshire (KitKat) cannot keep the same
sock for more than brief series of posts.

What the **** are you talking about? I don't know this Derbyshire.

It is one of his trademarks. Another is never will he provide
more than bluster and that verbose hyperbole he is well
known for.
"All talk no substance" is our Paul :-/

Who is "our Paul", Erwin?

I think you have mistaken me from somebody else, AND that you have the
wrong newsgroup. Nothing in your post seems to have anything whatsoever
to do with Java, and most of it seems to be a misguided flame intended
for this Paul of yours, who isn't even posting here.

Go bother some other newsgroup.

By engaging Paul you only serve to feed him, on
anything, he will accept anything as fodder to build a
troll from.

Vacuous since he isn't posting in this thread, or, as near as I can
tell, this entire newsgroup.

See -->X-Complaints-To: (e-mail address removed)
?
Key "DEL" unread.

So you're one of those crazies who advocates blanket killfiling entire
news providers? Usually it's AOL or Google Groups that you wackos
target. Why AIOE instead?

Paul has painted himself into a corner, over time.
news.aioe.org is the only free server which is
tolerating his Bullshit, at this time. He has been
booted from all the other portals of generosity.

More unsubstantiated allegations directed at a person who isn't present.

Paul will not use his paid subscription with Giganews
nor the account he has weazled from Eternal September
(after being booted from there) to troll from.

More unsubstantiated allegations directed at a person who isn't present.

You're sleaze, Steve.

He is reluctant to always use his Google profiles only
because he knows many servers and most savvy
Usenet readers have those posts filtered out.

So he is very easy to spot, and easier even to control
with a filter.

Filter on "derbyshire" in the from then, it's unique sounding enough I
doubt it would cause any collateral damage. Filtering whole news service
providers on the other hand obviously will cause lots.

Paul mentions "the weirdo calling himself "tholen""
which is most ironic as it is "tholen" who has provided
Paul with many lessons on how to circumvent filters.
Paul is brilliant at copying other peoples work, both
"good" and "bad". It is how he has existed since his
school days, after failing miserably on his own oats.

More unsubstantiated allegations.

If you have some kind of beef with this guy, have you considered taking
it to email, or reporting him to his provider's abuse dept., or taking
some other more mature and responsible action than spamming newsgroups
with flames and invective against him? Or even just killfiling him
yourself and washing your hands of the matter?

There were two or three posters here in cljp who knew
all this. Where they are today is likely the same place
Paul has driven many others.
Off Usenet.

Oh, so now you're charging this phantom with being singlehandedly
responsible for the destruction of Usenet? Don't be ridiculous. I can
think of far better candidates:

* ISPs dropping Usenet access left and right.
* Spammers.
* Trolls and misanthropists like you who post off-topic flamebait
and grind personal and political axes in any random newsgroup it
strikes your fancy to pollute.
* And so forth...

It is what he does. Paul cannot play so nobody else
can.
That is his thinking.

I suspect you might be projecting there. As I said before, a mature
adult with a legitimate beef with this Paul would killfile him, maybe
file a complaint with his provider first, and then wash his hands of the
matter. It is the guy who instead starts spamming random newsgroups with
rants and invective against him that seems to have that "if I can't get
my way here then I'll turn this newsgroup into the Towering Inferno so
that nobody can" mindset.

Now get the **** out of cljp, spammer.

 

[Steve Erwin]

KitKat aka Paul Derbyshire - Pembroke. Ontario [CA]

Ex-fucking-scuse me? Who are you calling an idiot, newbie?

You, idiot.

[cut]

I suspect you might be projecting there. As I said before, a mature
adult with a legitimate beef with this Paul would killfile him, maybe
file a complaint with his provider first, and then wash his hands of the
matter. It is the guy who instead starts spamming random newsgroups with
rants and invective against him that seems to have that "if I can't get
my way here then I'll turn this newsgroup into the Towering Inferno so
that nobody can" mindset.

oH the irony meter you used to post must be positively
humming rampant in your drive!

Do direct how a filter is to work on your presence when
you change socks every other hour in *any* newsgroup
you slither into - you have been asked this many times
by many people. The history is there.

It is a given you believe you are as smart as two pins,
taking any audience to be the dummies you see
society as (compared to your image of yourself), the
news this is not so is confronting to you, antagonistic
even. Too bad the truth is so grating for you, Paul.
You hear it so often you must be positively raging with
"Ex-fucking-scuse me"'s!

Now you just go do your "tholen bot" imitation over all
of the post. The dance is always boring and deleted
on sight.
You get that?

Now get the **** out of cljp, spammer.

I was out of cljp before you came [pun]

 

[KitKat]

Usenet, when it works best for *readers*, is all about
folks of the ilk of BGB. The variation in pitch without
being "whacko" is exactly what is needed in making a
read. How many times have you "nodded off" in a lecture
hearing some fundamentalist pedant ramble on in
monotone on the topic, without once even acknowledging
there is an audience nor maybe regale same with a
diversionary (stay awake!) anecdotal on the mornings
exercise in the broom cupboard with the campus
cleaner (either gender-both)!?

What does that paragraph even *mean*?

Myself I read thousands of posts in any one week, I
publish very few, if any, some weeks. Lately (2 years+)
the likes of Paul Derbyshire are "holding the floor" in
many a group. That activity ruins my read.

As much as Paul loathes being criticized for his
stupidities,

More unsubstantiated allegations against this Paul you seem to be so
obsessed with. Axe-grind much?

I get very proactive when an asshole ruins
my read.

You weren't even participating in this thread until you jumped into it
with the sole apparent objective of foaming at the mouth about your
arch-nemesis to anyone who might listen. And so inarticulately that
blmblm didn't even figure out who you were misidentifying as your target!

Just go away.

Such is why you see me 'pop'.

In other words, you will lurk in a newsgroup until someone says
something you disagree with, or your paranoid little brain suddenly
convinces itself that someone in it is your arch-foe in disguise, and
then you'll bombard the group and disrupt random threads with off-topic
flames?

Hate to break it to you, Steve, but that sort of behavior will just mark
*you* as a troll and land you in everyone's killfiles in short order.

Now **** off.

Reading people as BGB simply urges learning and the
hunting of more information, so as to "get it".

How ironic.

I do not need to post to learn about a topic, I do need
to be able to read to have Usenet work for me.
Thousands, nay millions, would join with that.

Usenet is a discussion platform, not a lecture hall. People can and will
talk back and debate various things. Perhaps blogs and podcasts are more
your speed.

And while it's all fine and dandy to purely lurk, posting SOLELY to
complain about/accuse other posters of stuff and not to actually discuss
a newsgroup's topic is just plain bad netiquette. Doing it in the form
of incoherent and partly-unintelligible rants doubly so.

I agree with the direction of your point. I carnt say
"wrong" however, is the word I would use.
Digression from topic only fits the "wrong" tag when it
leaves the bone of the topic entirely, like mixing fart
jokes into a thread on the biorhythms of an amoeba,

And mixing flames and your personal axe grinding regarding this Paul
fella into a thread on Java's object monitors?

How ironic.

This is exactly Paul's MO, precisely.

Actually, it seems to be *your* MO.

Paul takes great umbrage when pulled over for doing
so, playing the victim card as the first pawn move.

Looks like the term "netkkkop" has never been more applicable. I mean,
not only are you demanding unilaterally that a whole news server be
arbitrarily subjected to a form of UDP, and going around badmouthing
someone for who knows what purported "crimes", but now you not only
claim to be the local topic police but even specifically use cop
metaphors like "pulled over"?

Policeman, arrest thyself, for thou art guilty of the very charge thou
hath just levelest at others! Tell everyone to killfile all news posts
originating from Astraweb and flame thyself! Or else thou art proven, by
thine own hand, to be the biggest hypocrite in all of the
English-speaking world!

All contrived, as the resultant flammage is his
intended outcome, as a "victolly, I claim victolly".

Paul in full flight demands he has the last word,
always.

Projecting again?

Paul's MO is wrong, and Paul knows it.

Let me guess: Paul is actually you, and your Hyde side, named "Steve",
is trying to kill your Jekyll side?

I was most surprised to stumble across posts
by Paul Derbyshire again impacting on the language
groups, as this has all been done before, on at least
three occasions in the past three years I am aware of.

You have stumbled across either your own previous post (see above) or
your own hallucination and/or paranoia, I'm not sure which.

http://mushroomobserver.org/observer/show_user?_js=off&_new=true&id=621

So there is somebody with that name out there. So what? Nothing at that
site has anything in the least to do with Java or any of the posters in
this newsgroup except to your paranoid little mind which apparently sees
connections and conspiracies of some sort everywhere.

Where those people are today I cannot know, a quick
pull of headers does not show anything familiar to
myself. Therefore I again put the information as an
addendum. There is absolutely no doubt
Paul Derbyshire of the Fractals and Paul Derbyshire
of the Mushrooms _a n d_ the plethora of posting names
used over many years are one and the same actual
person.

Paranoia obviously knows no bounds. I just hope you're not liable to
violence. Lots of people develop what you have and start linking random
websites, television people, and other stuff and believing they're all
connected and that the news anchor is using body language to send them
secret messages about the CIA's mind reading agents that are hunting you
and yadda yadda yadda, and most of them never actually hurt anybody, but
every once in a while one of you nuts grabs a sawed-off and goes berserk
in a shopping mall or something after the voices tell you that Celine
Dion is dumping you or whatever.

I do hope you're not one of the ones that goes berserk.

Paul has constructed his own problems, made his own
bed. Contrary to his belief the World owes him nothing.

Besides being another unsubstantiated claim regarding someone who isn't
posting to this newsgroup, that last bit is just plain wrong anyway,
according to the various UN Declarations and Geneva Conventions; those
say there is a certain minimum that the world owes a human being in the
way of rights.

Always beyond "off-topic", he is beyond that as can be
tolerated by many, only Paul can fix that.

Sounds like you're talking about yourself again there, Steve.

As an aside, may I suggest you try this syntax in trn
as a "From"?
"(e-mail address removed)"<[email protected]>
The change may then allow your "nym" to list
'correctly' in the message group for all reader
software;
example of your header display in one reader is here:
https://rapidshare.com/files/664524757/trn_UsenetSyntax.jpg

Finally, something somewhat intelligible and constructive in one of your
posts. And even then it has nothing whatsoever to do with Java.

Thank you for your contribution.

Thank you, in advance, for getting the **** out of cljp.

Unless, of course, you plan to actually start posting about Java.

I bid you good day and good wind aft of the body.

You bid him good day and happy farts?! What the hell, Steve!

 

[KitKat]

KitKat aka Paul Derbyshire - Pembroke. Ontario [CA]
Wrong.

Ex-fucking-scuse me? Who are you calling an idiot, newbie?

You, idiot.

Who is "You, idiot", Erwin? The only one here showing serious signs of
idiocy is you, Erwin.

oH the irony meter you used to post must be positively
humming rampant in your drive!

Strange sexual fantasies now, Erwin? And why the hell haven't you left
cljp yet? You're obviously not here to discuss Java. Go find a more
appropriate venue for your putrid rants and cryptic nonsense.

Do direct how a filter is to work on your presence when
you change socks every other hour in *any* newsgroup
you slither into

What does my wardrobe have to do with anything, Erwin?

you have been asked this many times by many people.
The history is there.

In your head, Erwin.

It is a given you believe you are as smart as two pins,
taking any audience to be the dummies you see
society as (compared to your image of yourself),

People like you go a long way towards reinforcing the notion that
society is full of dummies, Erwin.

the news this is not so is confronting to you, antagonistic
even. Too bad the truth is so grating for you, Paul.

Why are you talking out loud to your imaginary friend in public, Erwin?
Unless you're under the age of about nine or so, that's a sign of a
seriously disturbed mind.

You hear it so often you must be positively raging with
"Ex-fucking-scuse me"'s!

Your behavior brings that out in people. What can I say?

Now you just go do your "tholen bot" imitation over all
of the post.

Why should I?

The dance is always boring and deleted on sight.
You get that?

Perhaps you should delete yourself while you're at it. If there's
something you don't like about my posts, killfile me. If Paul is real
and posting somewhere and there's something you don't like about his
posts, killfile him. And if you have nothing worthwhile to contribute to
this Java newsgroup, GO THE **** ELSEWHERE.

Now get the **** out of cljp, spammer.

I was out of cljp before you came [pun]

Wrong, you just posted yet another long and nonsensical rant to it.
Check your fucking Newsgroups: line if you don't believe me. And a quick
search of cljp finds more posts by you where you're bugging someone
named Cthun. WTF is your problem, man??

Not for me to diagnose. Go seek the help you so desperately need.
SOMEWHERE ELSE THAN CLJP!

 

[Steve Erwin]

KitKat aka Paul Derbyshire - Pembroke. Ontario [CA]
Wrong.

On 06/07/2011 2:08 PM, Steve Erwin wrote:
As opposed to the idiot you respond to,

Ex-fucking-scuse me? Who are you calling an idiot, newbie?

You, idiot.

Who is "You, idiot", Erwin? The only one here showing serious signs of
idiocy is you, Erwin.

Yep, You, nutcase.

oH the irony meter you used to post must be positively
humming rampant in your drive!

Strange sexual fantasies now, Erwin? And why the hell haven't you left
cljp yet? You're obviously not here to discuss Java. Go find a more
appropriate venue for your putrid rants and cryptic nonsense.

Do direct how a filter is to work on your presence when
you change socks every other hour in *any* newsgroup
you slither into

What does my wardrobe have to do with anything, Erwin?

you have been asked this many times by many people.
The history is there.

In your head, Erwin.

It is a given you believe you are as smart as two pins,
taking any audience to be the dummies you see
society as (compared to your image of yourself),

People like you go a long way towards reinforcing the notion that
society is full of dummies, Erwin.

the news this is not so is confronting to you, antagonistic
even. Too bad the truth is so grating for you, Paul.

Why are you talking out loud to your imaginary friend in public, Erwin?
Unless you're under the age of about nine or so, that's a sign of a
seriously disturbed mind.

You hear it so often you must be positively raging with
"Ex-fucking-scuse me"'s!

Your behavior brings that out in people. What can I say?

Now you just go do your "tholen bot" imitation over all
of the post.

Why should I?

The dance is always boring and deleted on sight.
You get that?

Perhaps you should delete yourself while you're at it. If there's
something you don't like about my posts, killfile me. If Paul is real
and posting somewhere and there's something you don't like about his
posts, killfile him. And if you have nothing worthwhile to contribute to
this Java newsgroup, GO THE **** ELSEWHERE.

Now get the **** out of cljp, spammer.

I was out of cljp before you came [pun]

Wrong, you just posted yet another long and nonsensical rant to it.
Check your fucking Newsgroups: line if you don't believe me. And a quick
search of cljp finds more posts by you where you're bugging someone
named Cthun. WTF is your problem, man??

Not for me to diagnose. Go seek the help you so desperately need.
SOMEWHERE ELSE THAN CLJP!

You ??want?? to hear it, Paul?
You are going to anyway, you cannot help yourself.
You are THAT compulsive.

You are quite insane, Paul.
Stupidly insane, not loony crazy dribbling insane
but walking tall weird looking way neurotic insane.

And you know something else?
There is ALL you are. Period.

... now bite me and sue me you fucking shit-pile of
Usenet flotsam.

--

Steve - with Paul's Balls in his hand.

..... tiny things..
..... acorn size..
..... wonder how they go cracked??

 

[KitKat]

Yep, You, nutcase.

Who is "You, nutcase", Erwin? The only one here showing serious signs of
mental illness is you, Erwin.

You ??want?? to hear it, Paul?

Who the hell is Paul? Are you Paul?

You are going to anyway, you cannot help yourself.
You are THAT compulsive.

What the hell are you talking about?

You are quite insane, Paul.

Are you talking to yourself again? That would make a certain amount of
sense. But don't crazy people always believe themselves to be sane?

Stupidly insane, not loony crazy dribbling insane
but walking tall weird looking way neurotic insane.

What do your neuroses have to do with Java?

And you know something else?
There is ALL you are. Period.

Since your self-criticism seems to have nothing to do with Java, please
take it elsewhere, Erwin.

.. now bite me and sue me you fucking shit-pile of
Usenet flotsam.

Who is "you fucking shit-pile of Usenet flotsam", Erwin? You again?

 

[blmblm]

[ snip ]

As an aside, may I suggest you try this syntax in trn
as a "From"?
"(e-mail address removed)" <[email protected]>
The change may then allow your "nym" to list
'correctly' in the message group for all reader
software;
example of your header display in one reader is here:
https://rapidshare.com/files/664524757/trn_UsenetSyntax.jpg

Eh. I'm not sure I *want* only the part you have in double quotes
to display (which is what would happen, right?) -- it's no longer a
working address, and while the actual address in the angle brackets
works, anyone who assumes the "nym" is a working address ....

(Not that it matters, but you've found for me one more site that
apparently requires a newer version of Javascript than is included
in the Firefox on the system I usually use at home -- when I point
that old Firefox at the above URL, I get something that asks me to
log in or create an account. If there's a way to download the file
without creating an account, it's not obvious .... Trying again
with a more recent browser gave better results (an option for "free
download"). What a pain. Why I don't replace that old Firefox --
eh, long story, comes down to "more trouble than you might think".)

[ snip ]

 

[blmblm]

On 06/07/2011 7:26 PM, Steve Erwin wrote:

[ snip ]

You weren't even participating in this thread until you jumped into it
with the sole apparent objective of foaming at the mouth about your
arch-nemesis to anyone who might listen. And so inarticulately that
blmblm didn't even figure out who you were misidentifying as your target!

Don't be so sure about that. But sometimes [*] I have enough sense
to know when to stay out of a fight.

[*] Apparently not always.

[ snip ]

You bid him good day and happy farts?! What the hell, Steve!

Wrong pronoun, if you're referring to me. Just sayin', since you
seem to care about this sort of thing.

 

[Steve Erwin]

[ snip ]

As an aside, may I suggest you try this syntax in trn
as a "From"?
"(e-mail address removed)" <[email protected]>
The change may then allow your "nym" to list
'correctly' in the message group for all reader
software;
example of your header display in one reader is here:
https://rapidshare.com/files/664524757/trn_UsenetSyntax.jpg

Eh. I'm not sure I *want* only the part you have in double quotes
to display (which is what would happen, right?) -- it's no longer a
working address, and while the actual address in the angle brackets
works, anyone who assumes the "nym" is a working address ....

The fog in the picture would clear were you see the
list I uploaded. But never mind, let's try this?
In a "From" you have two fields:
1. name
2. active link

the name can be anything---> 2Many_Nyms%
the link *must* be in this form--> (e-mail address removed)
and *should* be valid--> (e-mail address removed)
but *could* be invalid--->
(e-mail address removed)
or
(e-mail address removed)
or
(e-mail address removed)

...... about the differences?
Today it maybe a tad foolish to be publishing a valid
email addy in a "From". Spam might not worry you
yourself (many peeps are setup very well to deny Spam
to their boxen) but it does contribute to "network
overload/stress" when the spamBots start searching for
a home for something that appears valid.
Adding "SPAM" anywhere in an email address no longer
works as a "deSpam", the bots are onto it.
AFAIK.. "invalid" or "null" are the only 'tags' that
render a modern email address useless to spamBots.

But I digress...

For the first part of "From"?
nntp clients have variance in how they interpret what
the user types as syntax and what is actually tX'd as
data.
In a Windows GUI, you just type (in the name field)
your desired "handle" and most intuitive GUI's will
output;
Joe B. Bloggs
to the list of posters names seen in a header pull.

In nix clients it is often the case to be adding double
quotes to the "handle" to enable the tX to the server
to list the name. ie, "Joe B. Bloggs" delivers
Joe B. Bloggs
No double quotes and the list shows;
Joe B. Bloggs <[email protected]>
This is how your headers appear in a list view.

For the second part of "From"?
In a Windows GUI you just type (in the email address
field) your described published email address and most
intuitive GUI's will output the syntax *only* in the
*header* fields, both in a "reply to" line (or "wrote")
in the body of the post, and in the 'hidden' headers of
the original post.
It will not appear in the list of poster's names.
This is how it *should* be.

In nix clients it is often the case to be adding angle
brackets to the email address so as to have the server
recognise a conforming post (RFC's) and accept the
article. Some servers will accept anything, yet as the
post propagates around farms the message gets rejected
and thus only a few readers using poorly configured
servers will see the post. And usually even that is
limited as the cleanup rate (TTL) usually drops the
post within hours/days.

Now of course there are exceptions to just about all
of any man made 'rule', and, yes.. there are some who
delight in discovering "why it is so". Thus -nobody- is
going to give you grief for a poorly displayed "nym" ,
as maybe that is how you -want- it.

"Lamers" may be an exception, you could 'hear' a squeak
from the likes of "Kit-Kat", well.. maybe not in the
near future [cough] :->>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

My two bits is just saying,, "this is what it *looks*
like, is that cool with you?".
And I ask, cos guys like me immediately think "newbie"
when seeing a handle listing in that way.
That, or ,"okay, that troll just fukd up!"<BG>
Even the most skilled troll makes mistakes.. mheh heh

An' you aint no newbie

(Not that it matters, but you've found for me one more site that
apparently requires a newer version of Javascript than is included
in the Firefox on the system I usually use at home -- when I point
that old Firefox at the above URL, I get something that asks me to
log in or create an account.

/nods
RS has denied my 0pera9+ completely for quite some time
now.
I use FFv3.0 or lynx, and have accounts, so no problem.

As I understood it the published link immediately
coughed up a dialog box (in a web browser) which then
prompted saving the file to a drive.
Maybe RS (like a number of others ) have made it that
one must have an account to grab files, I do not know.
If you want a second go at it I would strip some stuff
out and try a few methods other than my standard
approach..mkay?

If there's a way to download the file
without creating an account, it's not obvious .... Trying again
with a more recent browser gave better results (an option for "free
download"). What a pain. Why I don't replace that old Firefox --
eh, long story, comes down to "more trouble than you might think".)

All of this - "URLS to files on the web" is why it
pays to go get "binary enabled". It is just too easy to
upload a file to a remote group (from the conversation)
and just publish the Message-ID.
Buuuut today we just do not seem to be able to sell
that message over and above "too easy" java enabled web
services, which, as you discover.. aint so lubricating
to information exchange as the designers would have
Joe Public believe:-/
BuuuT that is another topic<g>

Holler if I can help, mkay?

 

[blmblm]

(e-mail address removed) <[email protected]>
wrote:
(e-mail address removed) <[email protected]>
wrote:

[ snip ]

As an aside, may I suggest you try this syntax in trn
as a "From"?
"(e-mail address removed)" <[email protected]>
The change may then allow your "nym" to list
'correctly' in the message group for all reader
software;
example of your header display in one reader is here:
https://rapidshare.com/files/664524757/trn_UsenetSyntax.jpg

Eh. I'm not sure I *want* only the part you have in double quotes
to display (which is what would happen, right?) -- it's no longer a
working address, and while the actual address in the angle brackets
works, anyone who assumes the "nym" is a working address ....

The fog in the picture would clear were you see the
list I uploaded.

But I did [see your list] -- eventually. Was that not clear?
I guess not. More about that below.

But never mind, let's try this?
In a "From" you have two fields:
1. name
2. active link

the name can be anything---> 2Many_Nyms%
the link *must* be in this form--> (e-mail address removed)
and *should* be valid--> (e-mail address removed)
but *could* be invalid--->
(e-mail address removed)
or
(e-mail address removed)
or
(e-mail address removed)

..... about the differences?
Today it maybe a tad foolish to be publishing a valid
email addy in a "From".

I set it up that way initially because the news server
I use required a valid address. I think they've changed
their policy, but since the e-mail address I use here is
basically a spamcatcher, I'm not strongly motivated to
try to disguise it.

Spam might not worry you
yourself (many peeps are setup very well to deny Spam
to their boxen) but it does contribute to "network
overload/stress" when the spamBots start searching for
a home for something that appears valid.
Adding "SPAM" anywhere in an email address no longer
works as a "deSpam", the bots are onto it.
AFAIK.. "invalid" or "null" are the only 'tags' that
render a modern email address useless to spamBots.

Eh, that's a good point. Hm. On the minus side, it does
somewhat inconvenience anyone who wants to reply by mail.
Then again, so few people have done so over the years (at
least, as far as I know) ....

But I digress...

For the first part of "From"?
nntp clients have variance in how they interpret what
the user types as syntax and what is actually tX'd as
data.
In a Windows GUI, you just type (in the name field)
your desired "handle" and most intuitive GUI's will
output;
Joe B. Bloggs
to the list of posters names seen in a header pull.

In nix clients it is often the case to be adding double
quotes to the "handle" to enable the tX to the server
to list the name. ie, "Joe B. Bloggs" delivers
Joe B. Bloggs
No double quotes and the list shows;
Joe B. Bloggs <[email protected]>
This is how your headers appear in a list view.

Yes, quite. And that's okay with me -- since as best
I can tell your suggestion would result in just the
"(e-mail address removed)" displaying, which I don't want.

For the second part of "From"?
In a Windows GUI you just type (in the email address
field) your described published email address and most
intuitive GUI's will output the syntax *only* in the
*header* fields, both in a "reply to" line (or "wrote")
in the body of the post, and in the 'hidden' headers of
the original post.
It will not appear in the list of poster's names.
This is how it *should* be.

Maybe so. But in the case of my rather peculiar "name"
I think it would result in something that might mislead
people.

Of course I could pick a "name" that wasn't a now-obsolete
e-mail address, but I started out using the address
because I couldn't come up with a name I liked, and all
these years later I still can't -- not to mention that
there's the continuity issue.

In nix clients it is often the case to be adding angle
brackets to the email address so as to have the server
recognise a conforming post (RFC's) and accept the
article. Some servers will accept anything, yet as the
post propagates around farms the message gets rejected
and thus only a few readers using poorly configured
servers will see the post. And usually even that is
limited as the cleanup rate (TTL) usually drops the
post within hours/days.

Now of course there are exceptions to just about all
of any man made 'rule', and, yes.. there are some who
delight in discovering "why it is so". Thus -nobody- is
going to give you grief for a poorly displayed "nym" ,
as maybe that is how you -want- it.

"Lamers" may be an exception, you could 'hear' a squeak

from the likes of "Kit-Kat", well.. maybe not in the

near future [cough] :->>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

My two bits is just saying,, "this is what it *looks*
like, is that cool with you?".
And I ask, cos guys like me immediately think "newbie"
when seeing a handle listing in that way.
That, or ,"okay, that troll just fukd up!"<BG>
Even the most skilled troll makes mistakes.. mheh heh

An' you aint no newbie

Eh. I think I'll leave it alone for now. I suppose if
there was a rash of posts agreeing with you I might change
my mind. Thanks for the info anyway -- it *is* interesting
to know how others perceive what I do, since the tools I
use are generally pretty far from the mainstream.

/nods
RS has denied my 0pera9+ completely for quite some time
now.
I use FFv3.0 or lynx, and have accounts, so no problem.

That site works for you with lynx?? Strange -- I tried it
but got basically nothing but an indication that the site
used Javascript, which my version of lynx doesn't support.
(Is there a version that does support Javascript? I thought
not, but it's been a while since I checked.)

As I understood it the published link immediately
coughed up a dialog box (in a web browser) which then
prompted saving the file to a drive.

It didn't do that in the browsers I tried (lynx and two
versions of Firefox -- a 1.something and a 3.something).

Maybe RS (like a number of others ) have made it that
one must have an account to grab files, I do not know.
If you want a second go at it I would strip some stuff
out and try a few methods other than my standard
approach..mkay?

Just using a more recent version of Firefox was enough --
eventually.

What I got, with that more recent version of Firefox, was
something fairly different from what the antique Firefox
gave me:

There were several clickable buttons that seemed like
they required having or creating an account. But there
was also, near the bottom of the page, a button labeled
"free download".

When I clicked that one, there was a short delay, and then
a progress bar suggesting that something was happening
appeared, and then the button changed color. I didn't
get any kind of prompt about where to save the downloaded
file, so I assumed that it had been put in some relatively
sensible default place. But then I couldn't find it!

After repeating the process more than once in the hope of
getting a different result (probably not very sensible),
I finally did something (can't remember exactly what,
possibly right-clicking on that button) that gave me a
prompt that allowed me to save the !@#$ thing.

"Mission accomplished", but what a hassle .... The downside
of not upgrading, I suppose.

Maybe it all works better with some other browser. Or maybe
this is an(other) instance of PEBKAC. I'm not infrequently
flummoxed by user interfaces that their designers probably
thought were intuitive. (Don't get me started.)

All of this - "URLS to files on the web" is why it
pays to go get "binary enabled". It is just too easy to
upload a file to a remote group (from the conversation)
and just publish the Message-ID.

Well, the news server I use doesn't carry binary groups,
so that wouldn't work for me.

Buuuut today we just do not seem to be able to sell
that message over and above "too easy" java enabled web
services, which, as you discover.. aint so lubricating
to information exchange as the designers would have
Joe Public believe:-/

Apparently not. ?

BuuuT that is another topic<g>
Holler if I can help, mkay?

Thanks, but I think I get the point you were making now.