11 or 12px ?

[Rafal 'Raf256' Maj]

I'm wondering, with font-size should I use for my pages.

I would like to rely on pixel-size settings (to preserve identical look
across different machines, if somone realy can't see 12px verdana then he
might enforce bigger font in browser -or- I'll probably add an option to
easly change font size on size).

Currently I do use 11px, but maybe 12px would be better? On the other hand
with 12px little less informations will fit on one page/screen/column/etc.

 

[Michael Wilcox]

I'm wondering, with font-size should I use for my pages.

That's up to the user for the most part. A user, especially those that want
a larger font size for sight problems or a smaller size for printing, should
be able to change the size with their browser's scaling commands. Defining a
font size with pt or px prevents users from changing the text to their
prefered size.

I would like to rely on pixel-size settings (to preserve identical
look across different machines, if somone realy can't see 12px
verdana then he might enforce bigger font in browser -or- I'll
probably add an option to easly change font size on size).

The option to change the size is often removed when you define it in such
strict terms. And you don't have to add the ability to change the size, the
user already has that.

 

[Beauregard T. Shagnasty]

Quoth the raven named Rafal 'Raf256' Maj:

I'm wondering, with font-size should I use for my pages.

The answer is: none.

I would like to rely on pixel-size settings (to preserve identical
look across different machines, if somone realy can't see 12px
verdana then he might enforce bigger font in browser -or- I'll

Verdana is a bad choice as well. It's too big. That's why you want to
set microfonts. My default font size is 14px, so if you design and
try to squeeze text into a small area, it will break in my browser.

probably add an option to easly change font size on size).

Not worth the effort.

Currently I do use 11px, but maybe 12px would be better? On the
other hand with 12px little less informations will fit on one
page/screen/column/etc.

What is best is to use this in your style sheet:

body {
font-size: 100%; /* This is visitor's chosen size */
font-family: sans-serif;
}

Then do not respecify any other normal text sizes, except maybe for
copyright notices, at 90%. Go larger of course for headings <Hx>.

Do also be aware that if you lock in a font size in pixels or points,
all those billions of IE users will not be able to (easily) increase
the font in their browsers. Consider that a fair portion of your
audience does not have the perfect vision that you may have.

It also does not matter if your site varies somewhat in different
browsers. The visitor will only use one, and doesn't care what it
looks like in another. To illustrate, see this site of mine, and go
ahead: stretch your browser window, make your text size big [1] or
small, maximize, make real small. It just... floats.

You are not in control. Your visitor is.

[1] In Mozilla, Ctrl-plus or Ctrl-minus

 

[Beauregard T. Shagnasty]

Beauregard T. Shagnasty replied to hisself:

To illustrate, see this site of mine, and ...

Well, crap! The link would help, eh? It is late...

http://www.freezeblock.com/

I realized about a half-second after Send.

 

[Toby A Inkster]

http://www.freezeblock.com/

The text that says "Integrated flange seals gutter to underlayment
preventing winter water leak damage to building" doesn't resize too well.

 

[Sid Ismail]

: I'm wondering, with font-size should I use for my pages.

Nothing. Leave it to the viewer - he's smarter than he looks.

Sid

 

[Beauregard T. Shagnasty]

Quoth the raven named Toby A Inkster:

The text that says "Integrated flange seals gutter to underlayment
preventing winter water leak damage to building" doesn't resize too well.

Heehee... should I have my client pay for a new graphic? Those
cutaway pics were done for him by some neighborhood kid, who actually
wrote his first version of this site.

The /entire/ web site was a collection of graphics. No text at all.

 

[Jim Royal]

The answer is: none.

I've been wondering about the fashion these days to tell people not to
specify font sizes on their web pages. Frankly, I don't consider this
very good advice.

The fact is, no matter which font size you pick, someone will want to
resize it. So you might as well pick the one that works best for the
page.

If the designer specifies no font size, the default size will appear
too large for the majority of people, who will all want to resize the
text (if they know how to do it, which is not a given).

If the designer specifies a reasonable font size (such as 0.9em), this
will be readable for the majority of people. Those who need bigger
fonts can still resize the text, but far fewer people are
inconvenienced.

 

[Michael Wilcox]

If the designer specifies no font size, the default size will appear
too large for the majority of people

How do you know it's too big for most people?

Those who need bigger
fonts can still resize the text, but far fewer people are
inconvenienced.

And what's wrong with allowing those of us who know exactly what our
prefered font size is and who like sites to be displayed with that?

 

[Leif K-Brooks]

If the designer specifies no font size, the default size will appear
too large for the majority of people, who will all want to resize the
text (if they know how to do it, which is not a given).

The default size is the one *I* have chosen. If it looks too big, I'll
change it.

If the designer specifies a reasonable font size (such as 0.9em), this
will be readable for the majority of people. Those who need bigger
fonts can still resize the text, but far fewer people are
inconvenienced.

But I don't want to temporarily resize my text just to see your site.
What's wrong with letting me choose what I want?

 

[altamir]

How do you know it's too big for most people?

with default internet explorer settings, which remain unchanged, it is too
big.

And what's wrong with allowing those of us who know exactly what our
prefered font size is and who like sites to be displayed with that?

use should have written: 'those few of us'.

 

[Toby A Inkster]

with default internet explorer settings, which remain unchanged, it is too
big.

Too big? Too big for you maybe, but I assume Microsoft put some kind of
thought into choosing that particular size, hence I'd hazard a guess that
it's about right for most people.

 

[Matthew Superstar Swass]

Lots of sites are moving towards the JS & alt style sheet changer. Let's face
it, most surfers have no clue how to change their text size in the browser. So
that option right on the page may be a good idea in some cases.

This sort of stuff wasn't an issue when everyone had 800x600. But now people
are being sold high res with small 15 inch screens. Makes text very hard to
see. Then if you increase the size on all sites though the browser font size,
it's not uncommon for it to butcher the design somehow.

So in my opinion, if changing the size in the browser alters the design
unfavorably then forget it. Specify all font sizes where it causes this, and
give them control over the rest of the sizes. I'm sure in most cases the main
text content can be changed without altering the design.

 

[Leif K-Brooks]

Lots of sites are moving towards the JS & alt style sheet changer. Let's face
it, most surfers have no clue how to change their text size in the browser. So
that option right on the page may be a good idea in some cases.

If you really think you have to duplicate what my browser already has,
at least make it default to 1em.

This sort of stuff wasn't an issue when everyone had 800x600. But now people
are being sold high res with small 15 inch screens. Makes text very hard to
see. Then if you increase the size on all sites though the browser font size,
it's not uncommon for it to butcher the design somehow.

Then fix your design.

So in my opinion, if changing the size in the browser alters the design
unfavorably then forget it. Specify all font sizes where it causes this, and
give them control over the rest of the sizes. I'm sure in most cases the main
text content can be changed without altering the design.

Good browsers will still let me change the font size. Again, fix your
design.

 

[Beauregard T. Shagnasty]

Quoth the raven named Jim Royal:

The answer is: none.

I've been wondering about the fashion these days to tell people not
to specify font sizes on their web pages. Frankly, I don't consider
this very good advice.[/QUOTE]

An author is supposed to please his/her visitors, who are in charge.

The fact is, no matter which font size you pick, someone will want
to resize it. So you might as well pick the one that works best for
the page.

...or not pick any.

If the designer specifies no font size, the default size will
appear too large for the majority of people, who will all want to
resize the text (if they know how to do it, which is not a given).

Notice that the OP asked "11px or 12px Verdana." The crux of the
problem is the choice of Verdana. It's too big to start. Therefore,
authors tend to set a smaller px size to compensate.

What happens when I visit with my computer that does not have Verdana
installed? I get my default regularly sized font way too small.

If the designer specifies a reasonable font size (such as 0.9em),
this will be readable for the majority of people.

...who have Verdana.

Those who need
bigger fonts can still resize the text, but far fewer people are
inconvenienced.

If you design your site correctly, using my default size (100%) and
only specify { font-family: sans-serif; } you are catering to me, your
valuable visitor, rather than your own personal taste. Naturally,
you've checked your site in several browsers to make sure that
increasing or decreasing font size, and using various common and
not-so-common fonts of any size, to make sure the design doesn't break.

And remember, as stated so often, visitors with that famous operating
system component masquerading as a browser, will not easily be able to
up the font size for your site if you specified pixels.

Go to the site I referenced (freezeblock.com) and change your default
font to whatever you have available (for English) and whatever size
you want to try. Doesn't matter the window size either. Except for
graphics and some button overlap, it works at a PDA size of 240x320
screen, and it even works reasonably well on WebTV.

 

[Rafal 'Raf256' Maj]

(e-mail address removed)

Notice that the OP asked "11px or 12px Verdana." The crux of the
problem is the choice of Verdana. It's too big to start. Therefore,
authors tend to set a smaller px size to compensate.

So, what font-style do You sugesst instead of Verdana?

(It would be good if this font would be default present on
windows,linuc,and mac - or, what font-faces use as alternatives for this
font)

 

[Duende]

While sitting in a puddle Toby A Inkster scribbled in the mud:

Too big? Too big for you maybe, but I assume Microsoft put some kind
of thought into choosing that particular size, hence I'd hazard a
guess that it's about right for most people.

Microsoft caring about their customers. You very funny Toby!!!

 

[Beauregard T. Shagnasty]

Quoth the raven named Rafal 'Raf256' Maj:

(e-mail address removed)


So, what font-style do You sugesst instead of Verdana?

body { font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 100%; }

(It would be good if this font would be default present on
windows,linuc,and mac - or, what font-faces use as alternatives for
this font)

sans-serif is available on every computer I've ever encountered.
It is the visitor's default - what /they/ like - and maybe, if they
don't care for sans fonts, they may have even set it to Times New
Roman! You shouldn't care.

 

[Matthew Superstar Swass]

If you really think you have to duplicate what my browser already has,

at least make it default to 1em.

That's the point. Go with default and those who don't know the option to change
it is right there on their browser can have the option on the page.

Then fix your design.

Easier said than done. Such sites where changing the font size site-wide screws
up the site are usally complex in graphics and the general layout. This isn't
the internet of 1998 anymore.

That ecritters.biz site in your email isn't trying to sell anything (nor would
it produce sales anyway), so you don't have to worry about the "wow factor" and
the resulting obstacles that some designers must face.

 

[Leif K-Brooks]

So, what font-style do You sugesst instead of Verdana?

sans-serif, available *every*where.