11 or 12px ?

[delerious]

Can you give me some examples of prominent web sites that do not set the font
size?

Doesn't *have* to be Leif... can be anyone here.

 

[Toby A Inkster]

Doesn't *have* to be Leif... can be anyone here.

In which case, http://www.useit.com/, http://www.w3.org/?

 

[Mark Parnell]

So you are suggesting that a site designer can't even choose a size
for paragraphs vs. titles ?

Not at all. Someone mentioned earlier in the thread that of course you want
headings to be bigger than normal text. The point is that:

a) Don't ever specify font size in px or pt.
b) Don't ever specify font size as anything less than the viewer's
preferred size - i.e. 100% or 1em[1]. Especially to compensate for your
poor choice of fonts (Verdana, for example).

We're not saying your entire site has to have the same font size. We are
saying don't set the font size to anything *smaller* than your visitor's
default.

[1] With the exception of copyright notices and the like.

 

[Beauregard T. Shagnasty]

Quoth the raven named Bob:

I disagree. It's easier to read large volumes of text with the
serifs included. Sans-serif is best for titles and similar. There's
no question that sans looks "cleaner" at the initial glance - try
reading a wide column of sans serif text quickly.

Please feel free to disagree. <g> I have no trouble reading wide
columns of sans text.

The problem with serif text is often the author chooses Times New
Roman, imo one of the ugliest fonts ever devised. A page in Georgia
isn't too bad. I usually set my print style sheets to Georgia.

 

[rf]

So then why does Microsoft's web site override IE's default font size?
Microsoft has made their web site use a font that is much smaller than IE's
default.

Internet Explorer was written by a bunch of egghead software
designers/developers.

The Microsoft web site was written by a bunch of bonehead web dresigners who
get it wrong every time they rewrite the site.

Cheers
Richard.

 

[jake]

It's also horribly mixed up: is it serif or sans-serif?

Open up your word processor, switch to Verdana, put the font up big and
type in capitals: JUPITER.

Look at the I and J: they have serifs! Compare that with other sans-serif
fonts.

http://www.goddamn.co.uk/tobyink/scratch/verdana-is-strange

To quote Microsoft:

"Designed by world renowned type designer Mathew Carter, and hand-hinted
by leading hinting expert, Monotype's Tom Rickner, these sans serif
fonts are unique examples of type design for the computer screen"

"Commonly confused characters, such as the lowercase i j l, the
uppercase I J L and the number 1, have been carefully drawn for maximum
individuality - an important characteristic of fonts designed for
on-screen use."

So -- it's definitely a sans-serif font with the I and J specifically
designed to avoid ambiguity.

regards.

 

[rf]

So you are suggesting that a site designer can't even choose a size
for paragraphs vs. titles ?

You mean paragraphs vs <h#> elements?

The browser already does that by default, in the UA style sheet.. There is
no need for an author to specify anything further.

Besides there is no point in an author specifying font size. I like my font
about 16 pixels high. If an author specifies 100% all is fine. If an author
specifies 10 pixels then I will just roll my mouse wheel a bit to put the
text back to 16 pixels, where *I* like it. Of course this very often causes
the text to flow out of control all over the pretty layout graphics,
whereupon I simply remove the pretty layout graphics, so I can read the
content, which I am sure the author did not intend to happen

Cheers
Richard.

 

[Greg Schmidt]

If an author
specifies 10 pixels then I will just roll my mouse wheel a bit to put the
text back to 16 pixels, where *I* like it. Of course this very often causes
the text to flow out of control all over the pretty layout graphics,
whereupon I simply remove the pretty layout graphics, so I can read the
content, which I am sure the author did not intend to happen

I agree with this point. It seems very plausible to me that most web
designers do not intend for us to read their content! We're supposed to
"interact" with their "immersive" site, not actually try to learn
something.

 

[delerious]

In which case, http://www.useit.com/, http://www.w3.org/?

Yes, I would expect that those 2 web sites do not set a font size.

But how about some high traffic web sites (such as google.com, ebay.com,
amazon.com, monster.com, etc.) or news web sites (such as cnn.com) or
high-profile corporate web sites (such as microsoft.com or intel.com)? Those
are web sites that want to keep their high volume of visitors, so I'm
interested in knowing if any of those types of web sites do not set their font
size.

 

[rf]

I agree with this point. It seems very plausible to me that most web
designers do not intend for us to read their content! We're supposed to
"interact" with their "immersive" site, not actually try to learn
something.

ROFL. Of course my ultimate comment was *intended* to apply to the graphic
removal bit instead of the penultimate reading bit (which I should have
enclosed in parentheses). However on sober reflection and in light of your
interpretation I will leave this post as it is, sadly correct

PS. Went over to intel.com today. Microsopic fonts. I suppose this is
because they build microprocessors.

Cheers
Richard.

 

[Brian]

How do you know it's too big for most people?

Vast personal experience. Trust me on this.[/QUOTE]

No. Because *my* personal experience says that the font size in my
browsers are already correct. In Mozilla, I configured it to get it
just right. In MSIE 5.01/Win, I didn't change anything, but the font
size is correct.

Ultimately, whatever font size you pick

It will be wrong for some group of people, and could make things
unreadable in certain browsing situations.

A portion of your visitors will always be resizing your text.

Don't set a font size. If a user has to resize the font to view your
site, the new font size will be correct on every properly authored
site, without further breaking badly written ones.

 

[Noozer]

Don't set a font size. If a user has to resize the font to view your

site, the new font size will be correct on every properly authored
site, without further breaking badly written ones.

AGREED!

I *HATE* sites that set a font size... I can't read them half the time.

 

[nirvanasource]

AGREED!

I *HATE* sites that set a font size... I can't read them half the time.

If you use IE you can just use your own stylesheet or choose to ignore all
the sizes and colours.
Tools > Internet Options > Accessibility

 

[Kevin Scholl]

If you use IE you can just use your own stylesheet or choose to ignore all
the sizes and colours.
Tools > Internet Options > Accessibility

And if you use any of the host of viable (I daresay, generally superior)
alternatives to IE you can resize text regardless of the metric
specified in the CSS (even px).

--

*** Remove the DELETE from my address to reply ***

======================================================
Kevin Scholl http://www.ksscholl.com/
(e-mail address removed)